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Air to Turbo - Printable Version +- Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum (http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com) +-- Forum: Yahoo Groups Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=61) +--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63) +--- Thread: Air to Turbo (/showthread.php?tid=6851) Pages: 1 2 |
Air to Turbo - Wilhelmus Schreurs - 06-12-2008 18:39
When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does not appear to get enough air from the outside. Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 inches = 40 sq in. Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches) Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well?? What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it should be getting the colder air from outside? Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge" Terrace, B.C. Canada Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA Air to Turbo - Gregory OConnor - 06-13-2008 02:15 Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has density lost?? I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.????? Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids. it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence. GregoryO'Connor 94ptRomolandCa --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs > > > When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does not appear to get enough air from the outside. > Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 inches = 40 sq in. > Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches) > Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well?? > What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it should be getting the colder air from outside? > Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge" > Terrace, B.C. Canada > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > Air to Turbo - Pete Masterson - 06-13-2008 03:48 While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations about hydrodynamics very often directly applies. Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler" that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter. I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208 performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in "ram air" that gives a slight power boost.  Ram air is much less of an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact. On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no signs of lacking sufficient air. I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important. Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for what ever reason are important for ideal combustion. FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment. (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the air cleaner is only a little dirty...) Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA "aeonix1@mac.com" On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
Air to Turbo - PM7088@... - 06-13-2008 04:41 Turbo Diesels are by nature very "Air Rich", in that respect they have very different needs than a gas engine. Putting in 25% more air will yield nothing. To get more power is simple, just add fuel. Different injectors {or timing on computer controlled engines) is how you do it. Want economy? Reduce the fuel input. How fast you want to go? = How much fuel you want to burn? Pete -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Pete Masterson > While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid > dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations > about hydrodynamics very often directly applies. > > Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD > Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler" > that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger > and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes > it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter. > > I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208 > performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine > compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with > experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally > aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in > "ram air" that gives a slight power boost. Ram air is much less of > an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact. > > On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is > ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb > side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or > other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no > signs of lacking sufficient air. > > I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the > 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air > effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main > effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from > outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all > turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important. > Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for > what ever reason are important for ideal combustion. > > FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very > restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment. > (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the > air cleaner is only a little dirty...) > > Pete Masterson > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 > El Sobrante CA > aeonix1@... > > > > On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote: > > > Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes > > restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air > > turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that > > collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and > > reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no > > restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its > > self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than > > smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water > > restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling > > silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But > > turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has > > density lost?? > > > > I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I > > understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.????? > > > > Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for > > another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids. > > it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence. > > > > GregoryO'Connor > > 94ptRomolandCa > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs > > > >> > >> > >> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air > > cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe > > this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does > > not appear to get enough air from the outside. > >> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 > > inches = 40 sq in. > >> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, > > this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter > > should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches) > >> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well?? > >> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it > > is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it > > should be getting the colder air from outside? > >> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated. > >> Thanks in advance. > >> > >> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge" > >> Terrace, B.C. Canada > >> > >> > >> > > __________________________________________________________________ > >> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. > > Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at > > http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > |
While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations about hydrodynamics very often directly applies. Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler" that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter. I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208 performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in "ram air" that gives a slight power boost.  Ram air is much less of an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact. On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no signs of lacking sufficient air. I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important. Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for what ever reason are important for ideal combustion. FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment. (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the air cleaner is only a little dirty...) Pete Masterson '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 El Sobrante CA "aeonix1@mac.com" On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
Air to Turbo - Scott Forman - 06-13-2008 04:57 My generator has a hose-just lik a normal radiator hose-that extends from the air cleaner outside of the gen compartment to pick up fresh air. Scott Forman 86 PT38 Memphis --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote: > > While I worked at NASA Ames Research Center, I learned that "fluid > dynamics" often applies very directly to air flow. So, observations > about hydrodynamics very often directly applies. > > Air for combustion is best obtained from the coolest source. On my DD > Series 60 (and I think the 8v92s) there is an "air charge cooler" > that is used to cool the air after it passes through the turbocharger > and before it goes into the combustion chamber. Cooling the air makes > it denser. Compressing air makes it hotter. > > I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal reports of improved 3208 > performance by routing air intake to the front of the engine > compartment, away from the behind the radiator. (Other FC owners with > experience on this point would be far more help.) With a naturally > aspirated front engine, a proper shape of the air inlet can result in > "ram air" that gives a slight power boost. Ram air is much less of > an issue with a turbo charger, but would have a minor positive impact. > > On the PT models, getting air from outside the engine compartment is > ideal. I believe my coach has its combustion air inlet on the curb > side above the large grate side access door. There is no scoop or > other effort to increase air flow -- but my DD Series 60 shows no > signs of lacking sufficient air. > > I've seen some sort of scoop at the top rear on some coaches with the > 8v92. The problem is that if it faces forward (for the ram air > effect) it tends to pick up undesirable debris. I think the main > effort is to ensure that the engine has good access to fresh air from > outside the engine compartment. Since the 8v92 (and 6v92) are all > turbocharged, the ram air effect isn't especially important. > Sufficient cross section and control of air-movement restrictions for > what ever reason are important for ideal combustion. > > FWIW, I often wonder how the generator manages to work with its very > restricted source of combustion air inside the sound compartment. > (Indeed, my generator starts putting out tons of black smoke when the > air cleaner is only a little dirty...) > > Pete Masterson > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 > El Sobrante CA > aeonix1@... > > > > On Jun 13, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote: > > > Bill, like in our topic of door wind noise, turbulance of air causes > > restriction of flow.Wind noise is a visual result of air > > turbulance??? I removed a big acordian scoop from a tractor that > > collected cleaner air from out of the hot engine compartment and > > reduced the black smoke immediatly????? I learned that there was no > > restriction in the pipe but my thinking is the air restricted its > > self. you may notice corrigated 2 foot drain pipes stay cleaner than > > smooth and bigger concrete pipe. the turbulant flow of water > > restricts flow and uses the energy to work up otherwise settling > > silt. I am sure air flow has major diffs than hydrodynamics??? But > > turbulance causes heat and I wonder if 'just heated air' has > > density lost?? > > > > I am not sure 'hot air 'is that much less dence than cooler air. I > > understood the advantage to be 'air just cooled'.????? > > > > Now DavidB and PeteM can add some math to convince you to look for > > another project... Dig a pit and wait for the WhatsHisName's kids. > > it's more fun than knocking beer cans off'a fence. > > > > GregoryO'Connor > > 94ptRomolandCa > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs > > > >> > >> > >> When I purchased my coach, I noticed that the top of the air > > cleaner (cage) and the ducting to the intake was removed. I believe > > this was done as it is commonly believed to be known, that it does > > not appear to get enough air from the outside. > >> Some quick calculations show that the intake is 27in by 1 1/2 > > inches = 40 sq in. > >> Intake to filter is 5 in round or equivalent to 20 square inches, > > this should be adequate air flow, or maybe the intake to the filter > > should be increased say to 7 inches. (38 square inches) > >> Also does the turbo not suck the air in as well?? > >> What I am planning to do is to restore everything, as right now it > > is getting the very hot air from around the engine, and I believe it > > should be getting the colder air from outside? > >> Any advice, pros and cons would be appreciated. > >> Thanks in advance. > >> > >> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge" > >> Terrace, B.C. Canada > >> > >> > >> > > __________________________________________________________________ > >> Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. > > Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at > > http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Air to Turbo - Glenn Allen - 06-13-2008 18:54 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" Wind noise is a visual result of air > turbulance??? > > GregoryO'Connor > 94ptRomolandCa Gregory, I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual and less audible. ![]() Glenn 1986 PT40 Air to Turbo - Gregory OConnor - 06-14-2008 01:55 Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages' are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'. GregoryO'Connor 94ptRomolandCa --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Allen" wrote: > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" > > Wind noise is a visual result of air > > turbulance??? > > > GregoryO'Connor > > 94ptRomolandCa > > Gregory, > > I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual > and less audible. ![]() > > Glenn > 1986 PT40 > Air to Turbo - Glenn Allen - 06-14-2008 08:05 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote: > > Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and > frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages' > are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'. > > > GregoryO'Connor > 94ptRomolandCa > Gregory, My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied. Over the last six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed reading your posts and your since of humor. As my frequency of posts increases you will willget a glimpse of the errors of my ways. Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a positive impact on the Bird community. I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings. Thanks, Glenn 1986 PT40 Marietta, GA > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Allen" > wrote: > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" > > > > Wind noise is a visual result of air > > > turbulance??? > > > > GregoryO'Connor > > > 94ptRomolandCa > > > > Gregory, > > > > I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual > > and less audible. ![]() > > > > Glenn > > 1986 PT40 > > > Air to Turbo - Gregory OConnor - 06-14-2008 16:51 Glenn, I understood it as humor. It takes quite a bit for me to be offended. Just today an elderly women got close when she ;called me an idiot ;threw a newspaper at me and ;told me to get the hell out of her house. She's just lucky tomorrow isnt MothersDay. Lookforward to meeting you also, Greg "Glenn Allen" Gregory, My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied. Over the last six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed reading your posts and your since of humor. As my frequency of posts increases you will willget a glimpse of the errors of my ways. Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a positive impact on the Bird community. I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings. Thanks, Glenn 1986 PT40 Marietta, GA Air to Turbo - Wilhelmus Schreurs - 06-15-2008 04:53 Glenn:
You will be in for a treat LOL. Would you believe he is no different when he is talking, so just be quick witted hehe. Can't wait to meet Tim and Greg again. Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge" Terrace, B.C. Canada ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn Allen To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 1:05:28 PM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Air to Turbo --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Gregory OConnor" wrote: > > Glenn, Age is not the reason for my inability to articulate and > frequent mistakes. 'Abundance of attempts' and the 'law of averages' > are. I just 'talk/post too much', it is 'bound to happen'. > > > GregoryO'Connor > 94ptRomolandCa > Gregory, My comment was an attempt at humor and nothing personal was implied. Over the last six months of lurking with a few post, I have enjoyed reading your posts and your since of humor. As my frequency of posts increases you will willget a glimpse of the errors of my ways. Howeve, rest assured that I always hope my contributions will make a positive impact on the Bird community. I do hope to meet you and the many others at future gatherings. Thanks, Glenn 1986 PT40 Marietta, GA > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Glenn Allen" > wrote: > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Gregory OConnor" > > > > Wind noise is a visual result of air > > > turbulance?? ? > > > > GregoryO'Connor > > > 94ptRomolandCa > > > > Gregory, > > > > I also find the older I get, the more the wind noise becomes visual > > and less audible. ![]() > > > > Glenn > > 1986 PT40 > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! |