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COACH BATTERIES - Printable Version +- Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum (http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com) +-- Forum: Yahoo Groups Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=61) +--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63) +--- Thread: COACH BATTERIES (/showthread.php?tid=6976) |
COACH BATTERIES - Jack & Donna Smith - 08-08-2008 08:59 I need some info for the Batteries in our 1973 Gas Coach.. When we bought it, there were 2 WalMart Maxx 29 Deep Cycle Marine Batteries, 875 cranking amps & 675 cold cranking amps. One was installed in the front battery compartment by the drivers seat & one in the Gennie Compartment. I installed another of the same "Up Front", and another under the entry steps, in the places provided. These are all 12V units. Now they are about ready to be replaced. Question is: Replaced with what? My Coach is stored in a Storage area without connections of any kind, and all the batteries have the knife type disconnect switches. Would several 6V type be better for my use? AND WHY??? Also, is a smaller size battery, (of same cranking amps) any different from a physically much larger unit.. Will the larger one have more "Innerds" and last longer between charges, or have a longer battery life.?? Most of the camping will be with hookups, but occasionally we will DryCamp for a couple of days. Jack Smith 1973FC31 SoCal COACH BATTERIES - wilfreddrabble - 08-08-2008 09:24 Jack, The reason for using a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries as house batteries to replace a 12 volt battery is that the golf cart batteries are supposed to be more robust and also able to take more charge/discharge cycles. Most of the time, the pair of 6 volt batteries wired together in series have a higher amp hour rating than the battery they replaced as well, a nice bonus. So far as I know (not that I have any personal experience here), most RV'ers who have tried this setup have been more satisfied with it than with their previous 12v house battery. The only downside I know of, aside from extra cost and trying to find the extra room for those big batteries is maintenance: you have to top up the golf cart batteries with distilled water regularly. As far as I know, they aren't "sealed". John Alldredge --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith" > > I need some info for the Batteries in our 1973 Gas Coach.. When we > bought it, there were 2 WalMart Maxx 29 Deep Cycle Marine Batteries, > 875 cranking amps & 675 cold cranking amps. One was installed in the > front battery compartment by the drivers seat & one in the Gennie > Compartment. I installed another of the same "Up Front", and another > under the entry steps, in the places provided. These are all 12V units. > Now they are about ready to be replaced. > Question is: Replaced with what? > My Coach is stored in a Storage area without connections of any kind, > and all the batteries have the knife type disconnect switches. > Would several 6V type be better for my use? AND WHY??? > Also, is a smaller size battery, (of same cranking amps) any different > from a physically much larger unit.. Will the larger one have > more "Innerds" and last longer between charges, or have a longer > battery life.?? > Most of the camping will be with hookups, but occasionally we will > DryCamp for a couple of days. > Jack Smith > 1973FC31 > SoCal > COACH BATTERIES - Don Bradner - 08-08-2008 11:04 It takes more battery to get more total AH. In my case, the original batteries were Group 24s, and there was no room to go sideways but plenty of overhead. 6-volt GC batteries are taller, so more battery in the same physical length and width. Typical Group 24 will be 160-170AH for two, and GC batteries 210-220AH for two (using two because 6-volt must always be in pairs). CCA is not particularly related to life or total Amp-hours - depends on how they engineer the battery. 6-volt GC batteries do not have particularly high CCA values, but with enough of them that does not matter - 6 of them turn an 8V92 over nicely. Sealed is a factor of battery type, and 6-volts are made in most (all?) types. If the type is sealed, the GC battery will be sealed. I have Lifeline AGM batteries, just as sealed as any other AGM. Never did like checking/topping with water. Don Bradner 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" Eureka, CA, headed East in a week if the doc gives the OK (fingers crossed!) On 8/8/2008 at 9:24 PM wilfreddrabble wrote: >Jack, The reason for using a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries as >house batteries to replace a 12 volt battery is that the golf cart >batteries are supposed to be more robust and also able to take more >charge/discharge cycles. > >Most of the time, the pair of 6 volt batteries wired together in >series have a higher amp hour rating than the battery they replaced >as well, a nice bonus. > >So far as I know (not that I have any personal experience here), most >RV'ers who have tried this setup have been more satisfied with it >than with their previous 12v house battery. > >The only downside I know of, aside from extra cost and trying to find >the extra room for those big batteries is maintenance: you have to >top up the golf cart batteries with distilled water regularly. As far >as I know, they aren't "sealed". > >John Alldredge > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith" > >> >> I need some info for the Batteries in our 1973 Gas Coach.. When we >> bought it, there were 2 WalMart Maxx 29 Deep Cycle Marine >Batteries, >> 875 cranking amps & 675 cold cranking amps. One was installed in >the >> front battery compartment by the drivers seat & one in the Gennie >> Compartment. I installed another of the same "Up Front", and >another >> under the entry steps, in the places provided. These are all 12V >units. >> Now they are about ready to be replaced. >> Question is: Replaced with what? >> My Coach is stored in a Storage area without connections of any >kind, >> and all the batteries have the knife type disconnect switches. >> Would several 6V type be better for my use? AND WHY??? >> Also, is a smaller size battery, (of same cranking amps) any >different >> from a physically much larger unit.. Will the larger one have >> more "Innerds" and last longer between charges, or have a longer >> battery life.?? >> Most of the camping will be with hookups, but occasionally we will >> DryCamp for a couple of days. >> Jack Smith >> 1973FC31 >> SoCal >> > > > >------------------------------------ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > COACH BATTERIES - Henry Jay Hannigan - 08-08-2008 12:38 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith" > > I need some info for the Batteries in our 1973 Gas Coach.. When we > bought it, there were 2 WalMart Maxx 29 Deep Cycle Marine Batteries, > 875 cranking amps & 675 cold cranking amps. One was installed in the > front battery compartment by the drivers seat & one in the Gennie > Compartment. I installed another of the same "Up Front", and another > under the entry steps, in the places provided. These are all 12V units. > Now they are about ready to be replaced. > Question is: Replaced with what? > My Coach is stored in a Storage area without connections of any kind, > and all the batteries have the knife type disconnect switches. > Would several 6V type be better for my use? AND WHY??? > Also, is a smaller size battery, (of same cranking amps) any different > from a physically much larger unit.. Will the larger one have > more "Innerds" and last longer between charges, or have a longer > battery life.?? > Most of the camping will be with hookups, but occasionally we will > DryCamp for a couple of days. > Jack Smith > 1973FC31 > SoCal > COACH BATTERIES - hippieforever3 - 08-08-2008 12:44 OK, first my bonafides. I have an electrical engineering degree and worked in quality and reliability in electronics over 30 years. While I'm not the world's foremost expert in wet storage batteries. I have had some experience with the quality and reliability of "backup" electrical sources. ALL known types of rechargeable electrical storage devices (batteries included) have "memory". The ability for the battery to absorb, store and discharge energy is related to how much energy was stored and discharged in recent cycles. It's very much like flexibility in humans, if you don't slightly over stress your joints occasionally over time you lose flexibility. You can reduce failure and extend useful life by totally (over) depleting the battery bank once a month or more. A perfect way to do this in an RV type application is to run the air-conditioner until the batteries were clearly struggling then turm on incandescent lights and leave them on for 6-12 hour AFTER you can't see the filament glowing. Switch off all loads and use a good REGULATED low charge rate charger, not the alternator and regulator. Actually a trickle charger would be perfect. Now this is not a very practical routine but the closer you could come to the deep, deep discharge and slow full, full charge the longer your batteries would last. In the most basic lead storage battery, the more lead the more overall storage capacity so in a crude sense the heavier the battery the more ampere-hours, unless the weight is in the case not the lead. While shear lead volume determines capacity from the standpoint of physics, performance is determined by configuration. The thinner the lead plates are the faster they will charge or discharge (cranking power). The thinner the plates are the more the battery might be prone to failure from environmental factors like temperature and vibration. Here is the dilemma preventing you from picking the best battery using a scale. One really good indicator of battery quality is the case and terminals. Is the case a heavy thick walled rubber compound or is it a nice thin walled high performance polymer? At the factory the cost differential is at most $2. What they are charging retail is some indicator of value. If you can see the plate structure, what does the workmanship look like? Check the materials of the terminals and the seals. On almost all batteries the top is a separate piece. Check the joint construction and workmanship. ANY inconsistency or voids is a sign of lower quality craftsmanship. Check a couple of different sizes and cases from the same manufacturer. There is absolutely no inherent reason why 6 volt golf cart batteries should be more capable of better handling numerous charge and discharge cycles than 12 volt batteries although the design of any battery will impact that and it may be a valid argument that batteries specifically designed for full charge / discharge applications will last longer. There are however 12 volt batteries designed for these same cycles and the extra connections in a 6 volt system negatively impact reliability and efficiency. As a general rule you should get better performance and life from sealed batteries. Typically they will be newer designs, often made on more modern production lines and there is far less chance that the electrolyte will become (even slightly) contaminated or non-optimal. Price vs. performance vs. reliability. Two $75 55ah 12 volt batteries will be more reliable than one $150 100ah battery but take up twice the space. You can limp in on one of the $75 cheapies and with proper care ONE of them will last longer than the $150 battery. Will four $37.50 six volt batteries outperform either of the other options ... Nope, if one of those four fail, you're walking. If you're looking at spending $500 or more on batteries, in a none emergency replacement, it might be worthwhile to contact the manufacturer and get the detail specs and reliability data on the models you are considering. Happy to help if you have questions. Regards, GPSGary COACH BATTERIES - Henry Jay Hannigan - 08-08-2008 12:46 Jack: I am a fan of TROJAN T105 six volt batteries......Two in series is all u need for house power.......I had mine over seven years and still fine in motorhome in Australia using a solar setup. Understand SAMs club has some a little cheaper and a few less amps....for myself, I like the BEST and for ME, TROJAN T105's are the best for house batteries. They list at $169 in Vegas but I got them last month here for $130. I hear SAMS club batteries are cheaper....Take your pick. LOL Regards, Hank still in Vegas 90SP36 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith" > > I need some info for the Batteries in our 1973 Gas Coach.. When we > bought it, there were 2 WalMart Maxx 29 Deep Cycle Marine Batteries, > 875 cranking amps & 675 cold cranking amps. One was installed in the > front battery compartment by the drivers seat & one in the Gennie > Compartment. I installed another of the same "Up Front", and another > under the entry steps, in the places provided. These are all 12V units. > Now they are about ready to be replaced. > Question is: Replaced with what? > My Coach is stored in a Storage area without connections of any kind, > and all the batteries have the knife type disconnect switches. > Would several 6V type be better for my use? AND WHY??? > Also, is a smaller size battery, (of same cranking amps) any different > from a physically much larger unit.. Will the larger one have > more "Innerds" and last longer between charges, or have a longer > battery life.?? > Most of the camping will be with hookups, but occasionally we will > DryCamp for a couple of days. > Jack Smith > 1973FC31 > SoCal > COACH BATTERIES - jim riordan - 08-08-2008 14:26 This is what I use more power less space no water Jack & Donna Smith
COACH BATTERIES - Henry Jay Hannigan - 08-09-2008 04:51 GPS Gary: Regarding your article; You stated the following; "The extra connections in a six volt system negatively impact reliability and efficiency," On my two six volt Trojan T-105's, I have a "00" wire six inches long connecting the negative and positive to make it 12 volts. Please explain the "negative reliability and efficiency impact" of this "extra connection." Regards, Hank 90SP36 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "hippieforever3" wrote: > > OK, first my bonafides. > > I have an electrical engineering degree and worked in quality and > reliability in electronics over 30 years. While I'm not the world's > foremost expert in wet storage batteries. I have had some experience > with the quality and reliability of "backup" electrical sources. > > ALL known types of rechargeable electrical storage devices (batteries > included) have "memory". The ability for the battery to absorb, store > and discharge energy is related to how much energy was stored and > discharged in recent cycles. It's very much like flexibility in > humans, if you don't slightly over stress your joints occasionally > over time you lose flexibility. You can reduce failure and extend > useful life by totally (over) depleting the battery bank once a month > or more. A perfect way to do this in an RV type application is to run > the air-conditioner until the batteries were clearly struggling then > turm on incandescent lights and leave them on for 6-12 hour AFTER you > can't see the filament glowing. Switch off all loads and use a good > REGULATED low charge rate charger, not the alternator and regulator. > Actually a trickle charger would be perfect. > > Now this is not a very practical routine but the closer you could > come to the deep, deep discharge and slow full, full charge the > longer your batteries would last. > > In the most basic lead storage battery, the more lead the more > overall storage capacity so in a crude sense the heavier the battery > the more ampere-hours, unless the weight is in the case not the lead. > While shear lead volume determines capacity from the standpoint of > physics, performance is determined by configuration. The thinner the > lead plates are the faster they will charge or discharge (cranking > power). The thinner the plates are the more the battery might be > prone to failure from environmental factors like temperature and > vibration. Here is the dilemma preventing you from picking the best > battery using a scale. > > One really good indicator of battery quality is the case and > terminals. Is the case a heavy thick walled rubber compound or is it > a nice thin walled high performance polymer? At the factory the cost > differential is at most $2. What they are charging retail is some > indicator of value. If you can see the plate structure, what does the > workmanship look like? Check the materials of the terminals and the > seals. On almost all batteries the top is a separate piece. Check the > joint construction and workmanship. ANY inconsistency or voids is a > sign of lower quality craftsmanship. Check a couple of different > sizes and cases from the same manufacturer. > > There is absolutely no inherent reason why 6 volt golf cart batteries > should be more capable of better handling numerous charge and > discharge cycles than 12 volt batteries although the design of any > battery will impact that and it may be a valid argument that > batteries specifically designed for full charge / discharge > applications will last longer. There are however 12 volt batteries > designed for these same cycles and the extra connections in a 6 volt > system negatively impact reliability and efficiency. > > As a general rule you should get better performance and life from > sealed batteries. Typically they will be newer designs, often made on > more modern production lines and there is far less chance that the > electrolyte will become (even slightly) contaminated or non- optimal. > > Price vs. performance vs. reliability. > Two $75 55ah 12 volt batteries will be more reliable than one $150 > 100ah battery but take up twice the space. You can limp in on one of > the $75 cheapies and with proper care ONE of them will last longer > than the $150 battery. Will four $37.50 six volt batteries outperform > either of the other options ... Nope, if one of those four fail, > you're walking. > > If you're looking at spending $500 or more on batteries, in a none > emergency replacement, it might be worthwhile to contact the > manufacturer and get the detail specs and reliability data on the > models you are considering. > > Happy to help if you have questions. > > Regards, > GPSGary > COACH BATTERIES - Gardner Yeaw - 08-09-2008 05:44 GPSGary, If you deep discharge your lead acid batteries like you suggest you will destroy them. That type of cycling is for Nicad and other types, not lead/acid. Gardner --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "hippieforever3" wrote: > > OK, first my bonafides. > > I have an electrical engineering degree and worked in quality and > reliability in electronics over 30 years. While I'm not the world's > foremost expert in wet storage batteries. I have had some experience > with the quality and reliability of "backup" electrical sources. > > ALL known types of rechargeable electrical storage devices (batteries > included) have "memory". The ability for the battery to absorb, store > and discharge energy is related to how much energy was stored and > discharged in recent cycles. It's very much like flexibility in > humans, if you don't slightly over stress your joints occasionally > over time you lose flexibility. You can reduce failure and extend > useful life by totally (over) depleting the battery bank once a month > or more. A perfect way to do this in an RV type application is to run > the air-conditioner until the batteries were clearly struggling then > turm on incandescent lights and leave them on for 6-12 hour AFTER you > can't see the filament glowing. Switch off all loads and use a good > REGULATED low charge rate charger, not the alternator and regulator. > Actually a trickle charger would be perfect. > > Now this is not a very practical routine but the closer you could > come to the deep, deep discharge and slow full, full charge the > longer your batteries would last. > > In the most basic lead storage battery, the more lead the more > overall storage capacity so in a crude sense the heavier the battery > the more ampere-hours, unless the weight is in the case not the lead. > While shear lead volume determines capacity from the standpoint of > physics, performance is determined by configuration. The thinner the > lead plates are the faster they will charge or discharge (cranking > power). The thinner the plates are the more the battery might be > prone to failure from environmental factors like temperature and > vibration. Here is the dilemma preventing you from picking the best > battery using a scale. > > One really good indicator of battery quality is the case and > terminals. Is the case a heavy thick walled rubber compound or is it > a nice thin walled high performance polymer? At the factory the cost > differential is at most $2. What they are charging retail is some > indicator of value. If you can see the plate structure, what does the > workmanship look like? Check the materials of the terminals and the > seals. On almost all batteries the top is a separate piece. Check the > joint construction and workmanship. ANY inconsistency or voids is a > sign of lower quality craftsmanship. Check a couple of different > sizes and cases from the same manufacturer. > > There is absolutely no inherent reason why 6 volt golf cart batteries > should be more capable of better handling numerous charge and > discharge cycles than 12 volt batteries although the design of any > battery will impact that and it may be a valid argument that > batteries specifically designed for full charge / discharge > applications will last longer. There are however 12 volt batteries > designed for these same cycles and the extra connections in a 6 volt > system negatively impact reliability and efficiency. > > As a general rule you should get better performance and life from > sealed batteries. Typically they will be newer designs, often made on > more modern production lines and there is far less chance that the > electrolyte will become (even slightly) contaminated or non- optimal. > > Price vs. performance vs. reliability. > Two $75 55ah 12 volt batteries will be more reliable than one $150 > 100ah battery but take up twice the space. You can limp in on one of > the $75 cheapies and with proper care ONE of them will last longer > than the $150 battery. Will four $37.50 six volt batteries outperform > either of the other options ... Nope, if one of those four fail, > you're walking. > > If you're looking at spending $500 or more on batteries, in a none > emergency replacement, it might be worthwhile to contact the > manufacturer and get the detail specs and reliability data on the > models you are considering. > > Happy to help if you have questions. > > Regards, > GPSGary > COACH BATTERIES - Don Bradner - 08-09-2008 06:01 As others have pointed out, there are some technical issues with your comments. I think if you research the topic you will find a steady stream of "Lead-acid is not subject to memory' on technical sites. Rule-of-thumb is to avoid discharge below 50% whenever possible. I wouldn't personally go so far as to say a 100% discharge will destroy a battery, but it will definitely shorten life. One other issue is this part: >Price vs. performance vs. reliability. >Two $75 55ah 12 volt batteries will be more reliable than one $150 >100ah battery but take up twice the space As you noted correctly "sheer lead volume determines capacity" so it is not possible to have a 100AH battery that is the same size as a 55AH battery unless the latter has an extreme amount of wasted space. On 8/9/2008 at 12:44 AM hippieforever3 wrote: >OK, first my bonafides. |