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batteries - g_man1146 - 11-02-2005 10:43

Hi Don,
To add a little more to the battery question:

As the name implies, Starter Batteries are meant to get combustion
engines going. They have many thin lead plates which allow them to
discharge a lot of energy very quickly for a short amount of time.
However, they do not tolerate being discharged deeply, as the thin
lead plates needed for starter currents degrade quickly under deep
discharge and re-charging cycles. Most starter batteries will only
tolerate being completely discharged a few times before being
irreversibly damaged.
Deep Cycle batteries have thicker lead plates that make them
tolerate deep discharges better. They cannot dispense charge as
quickly as a starter battery but can also be used to start
combustion engines. You would simply need a bigger deep-cycle
battery than if you had used a dedicated starter type battery
instead. The thicker the lead plates, the longer the life span, all
things being equal. Battery weight is a simple indicator for the
thickness of the lead plates used in a battery. The heavier a
battery for a given group size, the thicker the plates, and the
better the battery will tolerate deep discharges.
Some "Marine" batteries are sold as dual-purpose batteries for
starter and deep cycle applications. However, the thin plates
required for starting purposes inherently compromise deep-cycle
performance. Thus, such batteries should not be cycled deeply and
should be avoided for deep-cycle applications unless space/weight
constraints dictate otherwise.
Xantrex, the maker of inverter/chargers tells us NEVER to charge GEL
or AGM batteries at the Lead-Acid battery voltage. That said, I have
to say that my coach has 6 group 4D Gel batteries that are original
('99) and still performing as new. They are charged by the Xantrex
units (two 3000W inverter/chargers with a total of 320 amp output)
set for "Gel" voltages. When on shore power for weeks at a time, the
additional three 12 VDC Lead-Acid maintenance free batteries for
starting stay at nearly 100% using an Echo-Charger from the same
charging source. When running down the road the 300 Amp alternator,
which is set to Lead-Acid charging voltage, has not hurt the Gels.

Rich D. '99LXi43' CT





--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, dspithaler@a... wrote:
>
> Rich When I got my 89 SP 36' it had 4-12 Volt Deep cycle
Interstate for
> the house in the front compartment & 2- 12 Volt Deep cycle in the
rear for
> the Cat starting batteries. The house batteries had 2 that were
weak so I
> changed the 4 to 4-- 6 Volt Trojan batteries & left the 12 Volt
deep cycle in the
> rear as they were good. Was that a bad idea??? Now two years
later I am
> going to change the Starting batteries to 2--12 volt Interstate
starting
> batteries as I thought they are better for starting than the Deep
Cycle. Is that
> going to work & be good?
> Don
> 89 SP 36'
> Butler, PA
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

batteries - Henry Jay Hannigan - 11-02-2005 16:15

---I have TR 105's...still working five yeras....
regards,
Hank Hannigan & Naty
90SP36





In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, dspithaler@a... wrote:
>
>
> Hank I have had 4 6 Volt Trojans in my 79FC 33' for six years
& they are
> doing fine yet. They are house & starting in one bank. They are
the small
> ones. I don't remember the size of them The genny has a 12 Volt
for it. I
> have had 4 6 Volt Trojans in the 89 SP as house batteries for 2
years & they
> are doing fine. They are 145's & just fit in the compartment for
height. They
> were also $397.50 for the 4. They are a lot heaver also.
Probably have me
> over the weight limit?????
> Don
> 89 SP 36'
> Butler, PA
>
> ---DON: RE: Batterys...I have two 12v INTERSTATE batterys in
my
> 90SP36..been working fine for 2 yrs.....also have four 12v house
> batteries in front for house...got them from wal-mart two yrs
> ago..still running.......I have 6v trojans in my MH in Australia
and
> like them after 5 years still working but they are recharged bu
> SLOAR all the time..........would like to hear from u about
trojans
> working in you SP36 hjouse.
> Regards,
> Hank Hannigan
> 90SP36
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

batteries - dspithaler@... - 11-02-2005 19:46

Hank Yep that's what I have in the 79 FC 33' that I just sold Monday
after two years of trying to. I had mine for sale before you had your old one
on the market. I think they are the best. The Dealer for those services a
couple of under ground storage& under ground mushroom mines.and they use a lot
of them on golf carts.
Don 89 SP Butler, PA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

batteries - Blair - 11-03-2005 01:50

>
>
>
>
>Gel batteries and, to a lesser extent, AGM's should never be charged
>with the same voltage as lead-acid batteries. Doing so will damage
>the Gel/AGM's as they require lower charging voltages.
>
>
>
>Rich D. '99LXi43' CT
Sorry, but I disagree.....you have to check with the manufacturer.
Mine sent me a real nice sheet with all the voltages listed and how
to charge for the best life and use... My 8D's weigh in a 158lbs.
Blair in Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

batteries - Henry Jay Hannigan - 11-03-2005 06:18

--- DON:
two things:
The ole 77FC was bulletproof...sometimes, I wish I still had it so
it could be sitting in the Vegas sun instead of our
90SP36...HOWEVER, the 89SP36 is beautifuland I would NEVER go back.
I imagine you feel the same.
Second: The TROJAN batteries are the best...Have two six volts in
my small motorhome in Australia for house side and they are
excellent after 5 or six years.
when my four wallymart 12 volts crap out in the front of my SP, I
may jusxt put four six volt TROJANS in to replace them..I think I
will be better off.
We miss the ole bulletproof 77FC33 BUT we love the
Beautiful90SP36...what a dilema!!! will never go back to the
dinasore, but it was bulletproof ..and soundproof ...and great in
hurricaines!!!
spelling is not the greetist!
regards,
Hank Hannigan & Naty
90SP36
in Hawaii two more weeks then to KANGLAND









In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, dspithaler@a... wrote:
>
> Hank Yep that's what I have in the 79 FC 33' that I just
sold Monday
> after two years of trying to. I had mine for sale before you had
your old one
> on the market. I think they are the best. The Dealer for those
services a
> couple of under ground storage& under ground mushroom mines.and
they use a lot
> of them on golf carts.
> Don 89 SP Butler, PA
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

batteries - John Suter - 11-03-2005 08:10

Hi Blair,

Not gonna let you off quite so easy.

I'd like to see exactly which manufacturer, said
exactly what voltages, for Gel versus AGM charging
voltages. Can you post the "nice sheet" or
extrapolate for us, the Gel versus AGM charging
voltages?

Now, if they say charge both at 14.1V max, I'd buy
that, because 14.1 is the lower of the two (Gel at
14.1 and AGM and lead-acid at 14.4).

John Suter



--- Blair wrote:

> >Gel batteries and, to a lesser extent, AGM's
> should never be charged
> >with the same voltage as lead-acid batteries. Doing
> so will damage
> >the Gel/AGM's as they require lower charging
> voltages.
> >
> >Rich D. '99LXi43' CT

> Sorry, but I disagree.....you have to check with the
> manufacturer.
> Mine sent me a real nice sheet with all the voltages
> listed and how
> to charge for the best life and use... My 8D's
> weigh in a 158lbs.
> Blair in Oregon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




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batteries - g_man1146 - 11-03-2005 09:11

Hi Blair,

You must disagree with many others too! I don't claim to be an
expert on the subject and, therefore, must rely on what the experts
say. I am not saying that your particular brand of battery won't
tolerate the lead acid battery charger, just that most all brands of
GEL batteries do not. If you do a Google search for GEL AGM Lead,
you will find over 1000 articles that are similar to the below
reprint from Batterystuff.com. They all seem to agree that GEL
batteries don't like lead acid battery chargers at all, AGM's are
more tolerant but still last longer with the correct charger.

<>
GEL: The gel cell is similar to the AGM style because the
electrolyte is suspended, but different because technically the AGM
battery is still considered to be a wet cell. The electrolyte in a
GEL cell has a silica additive that causes it to set up or stiffen.
The recharge voltages on this type of cell are lower than the other
styles of lead acid battery. THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST SENSITIVE
CELL IN TERMS OF ADVERSE REACTIONS TO OVER-VOLTAGE CHARGING. Gel
Batteries are best used in VERY DEEP cycle application and may last
a bit longer in hot weather applications. IF THE INCORRECT BATTERY
CHARGER IS USED ON A GEL CELL BATTERYPOOR PERFORMANCE AND PREMATURE
FAILURE IS CERTAIN. Typical absorption voltage range 14.0 to 14.2
volts, typical float voltage range 13.5 to 13.8 volts.

Rich D. '99LXi43' CT

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Blair wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Gel batteries and, to a lesser extent, AGM's should never be
charged
> >with the same voltage as lead-acid batteries. Doing so will
damage
> >the Gel/AGM's as they require lower charging voltages.
> >
> >
> >
> >Rich D. '99LXi43' CT
> Sorry, but I disagree.....you have to check with the manufacturer.
> Mine sent me a real nice sheet with all the voltages listed and how
> to charge for the best life and use... My 8D's weigh in a
158lbs.
> Blair in Oregon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

batteries - Blair - 11-03-2005 10:28

At 12:10 PM 11/3/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Blair,
>
> Not gonna let you off quite so easy.
>
> I'd like to see exactly which manufacturer, said
>exactly what voltages, for Gel versus AGM charging
>voltages. Can you post the "nice sheet" or
>extrapolate for us, the Gel versus AGM charging
>voltages?

Never said anything about Gels....only agm's


> Now, if they say charge both at 14.1V max, I'd buy
>that, because 14.1 is the lower of the two (Gel at
>14.1 and AGM and lead-acid at 14.4).
>
>John Suter
>
> John,

Easy boy....These are Centennial AGM batteries and the spec
sheet says they can be bulk charged at 14.4 volts and float charged up to
14.1 volts. Now that just happens to be what my inverter is set at
(default settings) for lead acid batteries....

So I called the local wholesaler and checked to see if this really
would work. And yep, with their batteries, it will. They recommend a
amp charge rate at 25% of total amperage. My charging rate is well
below that.

Blair In Oregon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

batteries - Blair - 11-03-2005 10:32

Rich, sorry guys, I don't have gell batteries, they are AGM's which are
built differently and have a different charging rate.....

I you check with the makers of the AGM's you will find that you CAN
charge at the same rate as Pb acid if done correctly.

Blair in Oregon





>Hi Blair,
>
>You must disagree with many others too! I don't claim to be an
>expert on the subject and, therefore, must rely on what the experts
>say. I am not saying that your particular brand of battery won't
>tolerate the lead acid battery charger, just that most all brands of
>GEL batteries do not. If you do a Google search for GEL AGM Lead,
>you will find over 1000 articles that are similar to the below
>reprint from Batterystuff.com. They all seem to agree that GEL
>batteries don't like lead acid battery chargers at all, AGM's are
>more tolerant but still last longer with the correct charger.
>
><>
>GEL: The gel cell is similar to the AGM style because the
>electrolyte is suspended, but different because technically the AGM
>battery is still considered to be a wet cell. The electrolyte in a
>GEL cell has a silica additive that causes it to set up or stiffen.
>The recharge voltages on this type of cell are lower than the other
>styles of lead acid battery. THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST SENSITIVE
>CELL IN TERMS OF ADVERSE REACTIONS TO OVER-VOLTAGE CHARGING. Gel
>Batteries are best used in VERY DEEP cycle application and may last
>a bit longer in hot weather applications. IF THE INCORRECT BATTERY
>CHARGER IS USED ON A GEL CELL BATTERYPOOR PERFORMANCE AND PREMATURE
>FAILURE IS CERTAIN. Typical absorption voltage range 14.0 to 14.2
>volts, typical float voltage range 13.5 to 13.8 volts.
>
>Rich D. '99LXi43' CT
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Blair wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Gel batteries and, to a lesser extent, AGM's should never be
>charged
> > >with the same voltage as lead-acid batteries. Doing so will
>damage
> > >the Gel/AGM's as they require lower charging voltages.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Rich D. '99LXi43' CT
> > Sorry, but I disagree.....you have to check with the manufacturer.
> > Mine sent me a real nice sheet with all the voltages listed and how
> > to charge for the best life and use... My 8D's weigh in a
>158lbs.
> > Blair in Oregon
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

batteries - John Suter - 11-03-2005 12:55

Sorry Blair, for misunderstanding your response to
Rich's original post. Apparently Rich and I both
thought you were lumping AGM and Gel in the same
realm.

No question AGM's and Lead-acid's can withstand
similar high-charge rates, where Gel's will sustain
damage.

John


--- Blair wrote:

> Rich, sorry guys, I don't have gell batteries,
> they are AGM's which are
> built differently and have a different charging
> rate.....
>
> I you check with the makers of the AGM's you will
> find that you CAN
> charge at the same rate as Pb acid if done
> correctly.
>
> Blair in Oregon
>
>

> >Hi Blair,
> >
> >You must disagree with many others too... I am not
saying that your particular brand of battery won't
> >tolerate the lead acid battery charger, just that
> most all brands of
> >GEL batteries do not.

> >Rich D. '99LXi43' CT
> >





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