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+--- Thread: Better understanding (/showthread.php?tid=3220)
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Better understanding - Terry Neal - 08-19-2006 06:16
Jeff, thanks much for the great evolution of the Blue Birds. I for one,
as a recent new owner, really appreciate your knowledge of the many
significant model changes made over the years & your help in answering
the many questions that seem to come from the group.
Terry Neal
Bozeman, MT
82PT40
74FC34
Jeff Miller wrote:
> The 8V71 engine is a 71cu-in per cylinder V8, "71-series", not used
> in the Wanderlodge line. More common in earlier buses. The 92-series
> is so designated for 92cu-in displacement per cylinder, the 8V92TA
> being a V8. All of the 71 and 92-series Detroit Diesels are 2-stroke.
> The XX92TA is Turbocharged, and Supercharged. The supercharger (roots-
> type blower mounted in the valley) is there to push out the exhaust
> air and in the fresh at low RPMs, necessary for operation not really
> power-enhancing, the Turbo adds power and high-altitude capabilities.
>
> All 92-series engines are 2-stroke engines. Lots of power, good
> engines in their time. What killed them in the marketplace was the
> emissions, and also the fuel efficiency. The newer inline-6 4-stroke
> was well proven and more efficient, met emission standards, and had a
> much flatter power curve which gave it good low-rpm power for
> climbing and accelerating. It also was an electronic engine which
> mated better to the ATAC transmissions.
>
> The 6V92TA was the PT engine (Pusher, Tag-axle) engine from '82
> through '85 with the 5-speed mechanically shifted Allison
> transmission. All but '82 were the 330hp "silver block", mechanically
> injected.
>
> In '86 Wanderlodge began to offer the optional 475-500hp 8V92TA with
> the 4-speed electronically shifted ATEC (Allison Transmission
> Electronic control) transmission on the 38' and 40', standard in '88
> on the newly introduced WLWB (WanderLodge Wide Body) coach.
> Around '91 (not sure) the 5-speed electronic transmission replaced
> the electronic control 4-speed on the 8V92TA. In '88 the 8V92TA
> became a DDEC 1 engine (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control) which
> talked with the ATEC, in early '89 it went to the much more
> serviceable DDECII and so-on.
>
> '95 was the first year for the 470-500hp S-60 Detroit, available in
> the 42' (became designated 43' in '97), the S-60 was installed in
> both the 41' and 43' from '97 on, all s-60 engines have the Allison
> HD-4060 six-speed double-overdrive electronic transmission.
> Some Lxs have the optional S-60 engine, the standard engine was a
> 450hp Cummins.
>
> The 3208 was first available in '76 in the FC coaches, it was a 210hp
> (190hp California) 3208Na (Naturally aspirated, automatic
> transmission) with the Allison MT-643 4-speed mechanically-shifted
> automatic.
> In '83 the 225hp 3208Ta "intercity" engine was installed
> (Turbocharged, automatic transmission) with a re-tuned allison.
> In late '83 and pretty much all replaced engines; the 250hp 3208Ta
> with a re-tuned torque-converter, through '1986. The 3208Na was a
> 3050rpm engine (full-rated at 2800rpm) and was geared with 5.29:1
> differential, the 3208Ta a 2800rpm (2650 full-rated) with taller
> 4.89:1 gears.
> In '87 the FC (and the 89-92 SP (Single axle Pusher)) was re-powered
> with the 300hp 3000rpm 3208 ATAAC (Air To Air Aftercooled), and with
> the allison limited to 250hp, the chosen transmission was the 5-speed
> overdrive electronic ZF 5-HP-500 transmission with again a 5.29:1
> differential.
>
> The 3208 is an under-tuned engine in this application, running up to
> 300hp, the same block is used for the 435hp marine engine and is very
> reliable up through the 325hp marine engine.
>
> The 3208 like the 92-series was replaced because the newer inline-6
> electronic engines were cleaner-burning and more fuel efficient, and
> because the electronic engines were better matched to the electronic
> transmissions and controls. All good engines, will last a long time
> if well maintained and not abused. Many failed 3208 and DD engines
> expire after a long period of non-use, a change of hands, and off it
> goes. I'd be willing to bet that the largest number of the failed
> engines are due to a radiator / cooling system failure which could
> have been prevented.
>
> The BMC was a '94-'97 attempt to create yet another "entry-level"
> Wanderlodge.
> The Wanderlodge, through the '2002 Lx/Lxi was built from a pile of
> steel in the BlueBird bus plant, the completed bus body/chassis
> driven across the street to the Wanderlodge facility to become a
> motorhome.
> The BMC is significantly different in that it is a purchased Spartan
> Mountain-Master chassis which BlueBird buys as a rolling-chassis, and
> builds the steel-bodied BMC on top. In my mind it is more Wanderloge
> than BlueBird, all in the name. The later BMCs, especially the 40'
> 450hp were equipped so close to the Wanderlodges of the same year to
> be difficult to tell the difference looking rearward on the inside.
> Head-and-shoulders above any plastic-disposable RV.
>
> All Wanderlodges through the '2002 Lx/Lxi are steel-bodied over steel
> one-piece wall-roof-wall bows. In '98 the Lxi became bonded instead
> of riveted, the end-caps are fiberglass, but still steel walls and
> roof (typically under an aluminum roof-deck and luggage-rack).
>
> Good luck,
>
> - Jeff Miller
> in Holland, MI
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I have been reading and studying the BB history and have a few
> questions:
> >
> > 1) As I understand it, all of the xxV71 engines are "V" in
> construction and
> > are 2-cycle. Is that correct?
> >
> > 2) I believe that I would really want to stick with 4 cycle
> engines. Is
> > the Cat 3208 a 4 cycle? I know the DD 60 series is 4-cycle.
> >
> > 3) From the used ads, appears that the DD60 series did not show up
> until
> > mid-90s and they seemed to be matched with 6-speed Allison's. Are
> this
> > facts correct?
> >
> > 4) In the mid-90s, I see quite a few BMC models. From there
> weight and
> > engine combinations, these appear to be cheaper BB. Don't want to
> insult
> > anyone. Is their construction the same "bus" standard or closer to
> the
> > fiberglass/paper M/H?
> >
> > 5) Do the PT, LX, & LXI have the "bus" construction with metal
> outsides?
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Better understanding - Jeff Miller - 08-19-2006 13:21
The 3208 is the evolution of an earlier V-8 caterpillar engine, and
is a 4-stroke.
It starts very well even in low temps, I picked up my first 'Bird
(3208) at 10*F without block heat.
My experience with the 3208-powered FCs is that they get around 8-
9mpg. The larger the engine the faster I drive, so all mine from
210hp to 300hp got 8-9 (except when I drove to FL and back at 75-
80mph, then around 7.5).
ZF is a very large manufacturer in Germany. They make a lot of car
transmissions, people like Porsche or BMW for example use ZF
transmissions, so do the Detroit carmakers when they don't have
anything on the shelf and need a good transmission for a limited-
production high-horsepower car. Their current ZF bus transmission is
very popular on the S-60 engine in large buses such as Prevost,
VanHool, MAN, etc. It has a direct-shift automatic that can go
directly to the selected gear instead of shifting in order, plus a
robust design, I hear that drivers love them.
The ZF 5-HP-500 Series 2 transmission in the 'Bird is more commonly
used in bus fleets and in mobile cranes. A very good transmission in
my opinion, much smoother and more car-like than the mechanical
Allison, I love everything except that it takes a bit of pre-planning
as it is reluctat to downshift. The infinately-variable integral
retarder is extremely effective, with three operating modes similar
to the ones on a HD-4060, it is a joy to drive.
Beware of previous owners' maintenance on this (and any) transmission
however, the maintenance interval of the ZF is 12months for
fluid/filter change on standard ATF. I would question the life
expectancy of a transmission with neglected fluid changes.
Allison Transynd (Castrol - synthetic) is an excellent match for this
transmission also, it extends the maintenance interval and helps to
transfer heat out of the transmission during retarder use.
It is reliable, only a few problems I've heard of, mainly
external/voltage related. The biggest concern that people have is
that the ZF has more limited service facilities in the US compared to
Allison being in every sizeable town.
Personally I'd take the ZF "hands-down" over the MT-643 transmission.
I love driving it, and I'm not at all afraid of it. Of course I'll
take a new CAT C-13 powered 'Bird also, ...
- Jeff Miller
in Holland, MI
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "The Squires"
>
> Jeff,
>
> WOW! Thanks! I think this explanation should go in the files
section. I
> certainly plan to keep it. So the 3208 predates the V series. Was
it also
> 2-cycle? I have read about several problems with the ZF
transmission: Who
> made it and how easy is it to get repaired.
>
> Thanks again for this wealth of information,
> Jimmy