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+--- Thread: buyer beware (/showthread.php?tid=4822)
buyer beware - Mike Hohnstein - 05-04-2007 13:57
I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have inspected a few.
Bought it on the internet from on line pics. Blown engine. Figured I fix it up
a little and flip it. It turned out to be so nice, decided I never find a
better one.
Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air cooler install, not to
mention the exterior restoration, the change over to 24.5s the unending chassis
electrical issues I'm getting real close to $60k and not much of that is farmed
out labor. I did all the heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs,
water system, lighting, vents, etc.
Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good deals are when
somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
Cold but true.
Mike Hohnstein
Germantown, WI
83 FC 35rb
----- Original Message -----
From: bubblerboy64
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be a
completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing nothing. At
a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See that's
the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations and
this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell for the
cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller when
you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer paying
for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice coach
like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly the
price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is the
rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill Board
right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in competition with
the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about the
older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed him
see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to figure to
this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus some.
But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could easily
spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to get
it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point. If
you have something worth the money do the work required to prove it.
I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older coach but
it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there of. So
I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking for a
fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea of
fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
>
> On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> >
> > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
repairs will
> > probably always be a little more healthy than for refurbished
coaches.
>
> Kerry,
>
> I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would rather
> have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
advertised
> as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and seller
> comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium for this
> work.
>
> In my search, I found that people were tending to sell "average"
> coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market price".
> Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where folks
> wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to pay
that.
> In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach with a lot
> of problems, either.
>
> As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with nothing
> wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In my
range I
> identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to was
> about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value for a
> coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work I might
> have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get $50k.
On
> the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting $80k.
>
> When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with almost
no
> problems (few things here and there, but they all have those) right
> near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me that
> those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are those
> wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to make it
> half as nice as mine.
>
> So, there's my two cents worth.
>
> -Ryan
> '86 PT-40 8V92
> Tri-Cities, WA
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
buyer beware - ac7880 - 05-04-2007 14:12
JEH,
2 years ago plus I sold a mechanically solid nicely upgraded 83FC35
tubo with very good tires and batteries for $30,000. I was a 2 bird
owner and needed to sell one. I did a lot of the work myself and
had about $45,000 to $55,000 in it.
The current owner has had little expense since and is still enjoying
it. The coaches are out there. Pics of the coach I sold when I
still owned it are here:
http://rides.webshots.com/album/154715312Axawnh
http://rides.webshots.com/album/192165894pfPFdO
The moral, or lesson is that I sold a nice coach for 30K over 2 years
ago. Do not give up, simply search long and hard for a coach that
is "almost" complete. Spend the time to look. Take no one way
trips, buy no coach sight unseen. Spend several thousand dollars on
travel to find the "right one".
These forums are the best place to find the right one, as owners here
tend to maintain and upgrade, plus other members have usually seen
the coach.
Dan
94 BB BMC 37'
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was looking
at
> some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of what
> is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that
and
> figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I would
> be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But I
> was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
> which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
> seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
yourself
> I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> >
> > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
Blown
> engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
to
> be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air cooler
> install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over
to
> 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real close
> to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water system,
> lighting, vents, etc.
> > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
> deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > Cold but true.
> > Mike Hohnstein
> > Germantown, WI
> > 83 FC 35rb
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bubblerboy64
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be
a
> > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> nothing. At
> > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
> > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
> > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> that's
> > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
and
> > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
for
> the
> > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
when
> > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> paying
> > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice
> coach
> > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
the
> > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is
> the
> > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
Board
> > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
competition
> with
> > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about
> the
> > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
him
> > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
figure
> to
> > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> some.
> > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> easily
> > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to
> get
> > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point.
If
> > you have something worth the money do the work required to
prove
> it.
> > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
coach
> but
> > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
of.
> So
> > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
for
> a
> > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea
of
> > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > >
> > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
> > repairs will
> > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
refurbished
> > coaches.
> > >
> > > Kerry,
> > >
> > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> rather
> > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > advertised
> > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and
> seller
> > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
for
> this
> > > work.
> > >
> > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
sell "average"
> > > coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market
> price".
> > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
folks
> > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
pay
> > that.
> > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
with
> a lot
> > > of problems, either.
> > >
> > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> nothing
> > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
my
> > range I
> > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to
> was
> > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
for
> a
> > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work
I
> might
> > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get
> $50k.
> > On
> > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
$80k.
> > >
> > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with
> almost
> > no
> > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have those)
> right
> > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me
> that
> > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are
> those
> > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> make it
> > > half as nice as mine.
> > >
> > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > >
> > > -Ryan
> > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
buyer beware - davidkerryedwards - 05-04-2007 14:13
A year and a half ago I bought my 82 Fc 35 for $22.5. It had 100k miles with
25k on a Cat
ReMfg engine. Aftermarket turbo and a retarder. It needed a few things but was
in overall
pretty good condition. (Tom Warner has seen it and could comment on its
condition). It
had newer frig and low hours on generator. Needed to have the awning rebuilt,
new hoses
on power steering, new crossover pipe on exhaust. Dash air not working but I've
never
intended to fix it. Some broken pipes from poor winterizing which I did not
know. All
those problems I considered minor. It had new tires on the front and a swing
out
radiator. Full blue box records. Your prices may vary.
Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
>
> Robert, Ya lost me here. What bluebird are you talking about? Sounds
> like you have something for me to look at but I am not aware of one
> for sale that fits your description. Please understand I am not
> trying to get something for nothing. I think all of us have bought
> and sold enough "iron" to know that taking offense is counter
> productive. I am looking for opinions. I threw out the number $30K
> as a point for discussion not an offer on anyones coach. So again ya
> lost me. If you study these things long enough your head starts to
> spin. If I misspoke I apologize. JEH
>
buyer beware - Mike Hohnstein - 05-04-2007 15:35
Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your price range. Go to
http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k asking price, it's on
the market for mid 30's and a real deal at that figure.
MH
----- Original Message -----
From: bubblerboy64
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was looking at
some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of what
is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that and
figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I would
be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But I
was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor yourself
I pretty well better forget it. JEH
>
> I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics. Blown
engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out to
be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air cooler
install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over to
24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real close
to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water system,
lighting, vents, etc.
> Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> Cold but true.
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> 83 FC 35rb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bubblerboy64
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
>
> And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be a
> completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
nothing. At
> a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
> Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
> pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
that's
> the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations and
> this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell for
the
> cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller when
> you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
paying
> for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice
coach
> like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly the
> price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is
the
> rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill Board
> right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in competition
with
> the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about
the
> older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed him
> see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to figure
to
> this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
some.
> But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
easily
> spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to
get
> it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point. If
> you have something worth the money do the work required to prove
it.
> I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older coach
but
> it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there of.
So
> I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking for
a
> fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea of
> fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
>
>
> >
> > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > >
> > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
> repairs will
> > > probably always be a little more healthy than for refurbished
> coaches.
> >
> > Kerry,
> >
> > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
rather
> > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> advertised
> > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and
seller
> > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium for
this
> > work.
> >
> > In my search, I found that people were tending to sell "average"
> > coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market
price".
> > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where folks
> > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to pay
> that.
> > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach with
a lot
> > of problems, either.
> >
> > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
nothing
> > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In my
> range I
> > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to
was
> > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value for
a
> > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work I
might
> > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get
$50k.
> On
> > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting $80k.
> >
> > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with
almost
> no
> > problems (few things here and there, but they all have those)
right
> > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me
that
> > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are
those
> > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
make it
> > half as nice as mine.
> >
> > So, there's my two cents worth.
> >
> > -Ryan
> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > Tri-Cities, WA
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007 22:49
Dan, David and Mike, Thanks for your very sound advice and words of
encouragement. I will do exactly as you suggested Dan. And I
appreciate the heads up to Miller Coach. My intention for this coach
is more short (200 to 300 round trips) then long across country
runs. Obviously I would expect it to be capable. So my
thoughts are I don't necessarily need the pushest coach. Frequently I
am by myself so it also need not be the largest.(I have looked at
Class C and even B motor homes but they have no appeal to me at
all). I would like it to be clean and attractive with out needing to
look new. I would not like it to show rust. There are several
seventies FC available which might work for me. I will have to learn
more and follow through as Dan suggested until I find "my" BB. I am
getting a picture of what I think I want and at least a very general
idea as to price. I appreciate the help given and any to be given.
If any of you have potential prospects or leads I am listening. And
while I have your collective ears another question. Why is it that
none of these older FC coaches have functioning engine driven AC?
With all else "good" about BB why would these AC's be bad pretty
across the board? And wouldn't it be relatively easy to "rig up"
modern automotive compressors and such to replace the originals?
Again thanks much JEH
>
> JEH,
> 2 years ago plus I sold a mechanically solid nicely upgraded 83FC35
> tubo with very good tires and batteries for $30,000. I was a 2 bird
> owner and needed to sell one. I did a lot of the work myself and
> had about $45,000 to $55,000 in it.
>
> The current owner has had little expense since and is still
enjoying
> it. The coaches are out there. Pics of the coach I sold when I
> still owned it are here:
> http://rides.webshots.com/album/154715312Axawnh
> http://rides.webshots.com/album/192165894pfPFdO
>
> The moral, or lesson is that I sold a nice coach for 30K over 2
years
> ago. Do not give up, simply search long and hard for a coach that
> is "almost" complete. Spend the time to look. Take no one way
> trips, buy no coach sight unseen. Spend several thousand dollars
on
> travel to find the "right one".
>
> These forums are the best place to find the right one, as owners
here
> tend to maintain and upgrade, plus other members have usually seen
> the coach.
>
> Dan
> 94 BB BMC 37'
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
looking
> at
> > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
what
> > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that
> and
> > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
would
> > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But
I
> > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
> > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
> > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> yourself
> > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > >
> > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> Blown
> > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
> to
> > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
cooler
> > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over
> to
> > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
close
> > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
system,
> > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
> > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > Cold but true.
> > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > Germantown, WI
> > > 83 FC 35rb
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
be
> a
> > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > nothing. At
> > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
prospects.
> > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
have
> > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > that's
> > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
> and
> > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
> for
> > the
> > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
> when
> > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> > paying
> > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
nice
> > coach
> > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
> the
> > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
is
> > the
> > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> Board
> > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> competition
> > with
> > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
about
> > the
> > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
> him
> > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> figure
> > to
> > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> > some.
> > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> > easily
> > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K
to
> > get
> > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
point.
> If
> > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> prove
> > it.
> > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> coach
> > but
> > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
> of.
> > So
> > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
> for
> > a
> > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
idea
> of
> > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
needed
> > > repairs will
> > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> refurbished
> > > coaches.
> > > >
> > > > Kerry,
> > > >
> > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> > rather
> > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > > advertised
> > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
and
> > seller
> > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
> for
> > this
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> sell "average"
> > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
considered "market
> > price".
> > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
> folks
> > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
> pay
> > > that.
> > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> with
> > a lot
> > > > of problems, either.
> > > >
> > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> > nothing
> > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
> my
> > > range I
> > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came
to
> > was
> > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
> for
> > a
> > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
work
> I
> > might
> > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
get
> > $50k.
> > > On
> > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> $80k.
> > > >
> > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
with
> > almost
> > > no
> > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
those)
> > right
> > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells
me
> > that
> > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
are
> > those
> > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> > make it
> > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > >
> > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > >
> > > > -Ryan
> > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
buyer beware - brad barton - 05-05-2007 00:52
Regarding AC in older Blue Birds, we had good dash air in our 84 FC with the
condenser on top. And I would guess FC's would have an advantage over the
early pushers. My experience with an older Newell pusher was more
frustrating. The long runs of freon-line, twisting and turning around and
through the frame, multiple fittings and lack of insulation made it pretty
difficult to get the compressor back at the engine to cool the air up at the
dash. We replaced compressors twice in five years and never did have much
luck keeping freon in the system. Like they say, that's what the
generator's for.
Brad Barton 00LXiDFW
bbartonwx@...
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
buyer beware - Gregory OConnor - 05-05-2007 01:29
BubblerBoy, maybe you could read back your post and list the
characteristics your purchase require. Take that and edit
the 'vintage buyers list'.
One thing I would suggest is to use the phone and not email. I think
some internet shoppers ask questions because they just want the
responce they lack in personal social settings. Also, Some buyers
are just lookers.
I kick tires at the LandRover dealership two, three times a year. But
always leave in my Vega
GregoryO'Connor
1975Hatchback 4 cyl
RomolandCa
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
>
> Dan, David and Mike, Thanks for your very sound advice and words
of
> encouragement. I will do exactly as you suggested Dan. And I
> appreciate the heads up to Miller Coach. My intention for this
coach
> is more short (200 to 300 round trips) then long across country
> runs. Obviously I would expect it to be capable. So my
> thoughts are I don't necessarily need the pushest coach. Frequently
I
> am by myself so it also need not be the largest.(I have looked at
> Class C and even B motor homes but they have no appeal to me at
> all). I would like it to be clean and attractive with out needing
to
> look new. I would not like it to show rust. There are several
> seventies FC available which might work for me. I will have to
learn
> more and follow through as Dan suggested until I find "my" BB. I
am
> getting a picture of what I think I want and at least a very
general
> idea as to price. I appreciate the help given and any to be given.
> If any of you have potential prospects or leads I am listening.
And
> while I have your collective ears another question. Why is it that
> none of these older FC coaches have functioning engine driven AC?
> With all else "good" about BB why would these AC's be bad pretty
> across the board? And wouldn't it be relatively easy to "rig up"
> modern automotive compressors and such to replace the originals?
> Again thanks much JEH
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > JEH,
> > 2 years ago plus I sold a mechanically solid nicely upgraded
83FC35
> > tubo with very good tires and batteries for $30,000. I was a 2
bird
> > owner and needed to sell one. I did a lot of the work myself
and
> > had about $45,000 to $55,000 in it.
> >
> > The current owner has had little expense since and is still
> enjoying
> > it. The coaches are out there. Pics of the coach I sold when I
> > still owned it are here:
> > http://rides.webshots.com/album/154715312Axawnh
> > http://rides.webshots.com/album/192165894pfPFdO
> >
> > The moral, or lesson is that I sold a nice coach for 30K over 2
> years
> > ago. Do not give up, simply search long and hard for a coach
that
> > is "almost" complete. Spend the time to look. Take no one way
> > trips, buy no coach sight unseen. Spend several thousand dollars
> on
> > travel to find the "right one".
> >
> > These forums are the best place to find the right one, as owners
> here
> > tend to maintain and upgrade, plus other members have usually
seen
> > the coach.
> >
> > Dan
> > 94 BB BMC 37'
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> looking
> > at
> > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
it.
> > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
> what
> > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
that
> > and
> > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> would
> > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
But
> I
> > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable
BB
> > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
you've
> > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > yourself
> > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > >
> > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> > Blown
> > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
out
> > to
> > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> cooler
> > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
over
> > to
> > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> close
> > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
the
> > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> system,
> > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
good
> > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > Cold but true.
> > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
> be
> > a
> > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > nothing. At
> > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> prospects.
> > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
> have
> > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > > that's
> > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
restorations
> > and
> > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
sell
> > for
> > > the
> > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
seller
> > when
> > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
buyer
> > > paying
> > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> nice
> > > coach
> > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
exactly
> > the
> > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
> is
> > > the
> > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> > Board
> > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > competition
> > > with
> > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> about
> > > the
> > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
mailed
> > him
> > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> > figure
> > > to
> > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
plus
> > > some.
> > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
could
> > > easily
> > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
$15K
> to
> > > get
> > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> point.
> > If
> > > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> > prove
> > > it.
> > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> > coach
> > > but
> > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
there
> > of.
> > > So
> > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
looking
> > for
> > > a
> > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> idea
> > of
> > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> needed
> > > > repairs will
> > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > refurbished
> > > > coaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
would
> > > rather
> > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
was
> > > > advertised
> > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
> and
> > > seller
> > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
premium
> > for
> > > this
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > sell "average"
> > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> considered "market
> > > price".
> > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
where
> > folks
> > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going
to
> > pay
> > > > that.
> > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> > with
> > > a lot
> > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
with
> > > nothing
> > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more.
In
> > my
> > > > range I
> > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
came
> to
> > > was
> > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
value
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> work
> > I
> > > might
> > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
> get
> > > $50k.
> > > > On
> > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> > $80k.
> > > > >
> > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> with
> > > almost
> > > > no
> > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> those)
> > > right
> > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
> are
> > > those
> > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work
to
> > > make it
> > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
buyer beware - Pete Masterson - 05-05-2007 01:42
Chassis AC is one of the first items to fail on most BBs -- not
because they are inherently "bad" but simply because of the tendency
of the units to eventually develop a slow leak, and then they lose
the refrigerant. This is true of most automobive ACs ... and one
instruction in my automobile's owner's manual is to run the AC at
least once a month to help keep seals tight. RVs, by their nature,
tend to sit for long periods without use -- and it's also difficult
to remember to run the AC during the colder months of the year.
The system size and generally long runs of tubing also require a
somewhat larger 'charge' of coolant than smaller automobile AC units.
So, the various costs and difficulties of keeping the chassis AC
working often conspire to have owners simply 'let it go...' rather
than spend the money to bring it back to life.
One additional complexity is the legal status of freon -- the newest
units require R134a and the old kind is no longer available. So, an
additional extra cost is required to convert the unit to the new
refrigerant -- more expense and less cooling power than the original.
In contrast, you simply need to start the generator and you can then
run the roof ACs as you go down the road. Since the roof ACs are more
like home-type window units (self-contained with fewer fittings and
hoses to leak refrigerant) they are much easier to keep serviced and
operational -- and are much less expensive to completely replace, if
desired. They also do not require any horsepower from the engine --
and especially on the earlier 'birds, that's an important
consideration as well.
While my 'bird is much newer than those you're evaluating, consider
the costs: Fortunately, the previous owner already paid to convert it
to R134a ... but by the time I purchased it, all the refrigerant had
"left" the system. (The coach sat for about 6 months, unused.) The
refrigerant, installed by an AC service provider, cost over $300 for
the amount used. (Do it yourself might have cost less, but I don't
have the tools or knowledge to do the work.) There were other labor
charges for inspecting and testing the system to insure that there
were no leaks. Since this work was done as part of a radiator re-
core, I don't have the full cost separated out of the bill ... but I
expect that the AC service might have come to a total of $500 by
itself. While I appreciate the chassis AC, I'm not sure that the
expense was entirely "worth it."
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Lockhart Texas
On May 5, 2007, at 5:49 AM, bubblerboy64 wrote:
> <snip>Why is it that
> none of these older FC coaches have functioning engine driven AC?
> With all else "good" about BB why would these AC's be bad pretty
> across the board? And wouldn't it be relatively easy to "rig up"
> modern automotive compressors and such to replace the originals?
> Again thanks much JEH
>
>
>
buyer beware - bluebirdsp36 - 05-05-2007 03:19
JEH,
Don't give up yet! Several years ago, I bought a nice 79 FC-33 from
Bleakley in Atlanta for $20k. It had 120k miles and was in beautiful
shape. We took many trips with no problems over two years. We spent
about $10k on improvements and sold it for $32k. Bleakley was asking
$35k but I offered $20k and he took it. Offen times a dealer will
wholesale one out if it sits too long on the lot. They usually have
very little invested in a trade-in that old.
Paul Cunningham
'90 SP-36
Virginia
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was looking at
> some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of what
> is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that and
> figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I would
> be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But I
> was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
> which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
> seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor yourself
> I pretty well better forget it. JEH
buyer beware - pattypape - 05-05-2007 03:23
JEH BubblerBoy,
Any 20/25 year old vehicle will have some issues. Look at as many
Birds as you can find. I learned the most from the experiences
looking at those is disrepair.
Go to a Rally , ask a volunteer Forum member to look at a coach.
When you get serious pay for an inspection. There are several expert
Forum members that will charge a fee.
Remember most sellers do not tell all, One needs to be experienced at
asking questions. And all vehicles hold their own secret that will
surface in the first 5K to 10K miles of use. Keep looking and asking
questions, your Bird is out there.
We looked for almost 2 years.
Most Ole Birds will take 10K to $ 15K over a two or three year
period. You can purchase Old and add parts or purchase a newer any
Brand and take depreciation. It is a personal choice.
This is a lifestyle, a hobby, it is fun and a Recreational Vehicle.
One does not get money back from recreation when you reach the exit
door such as: Golfing, fishing, Sports events, or Disney World etc.
Usually no $$ are returned from even Vegas.
Bill 88 FC Michigan FC's are in your budget they are great.
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Dan, David and Mike, Thanks for your very sound advice and words
of
> encouragement. I will do exactly as you suggested Dan. And I
> appreciate the heads up to Miller Coach. My intention for this
coach
> is more short (200 to 300 round trips) then long across country
> runs. Obviously I would expect it to be capable. So my
> thoughts are I don't necessarily need the pushest coach. Frequently
I
> am by myself so it also need not be the largest.(I have looked at
> Class C and even B motor homes but they have no appeal to me at
> all). I would like it to be clean and attractive with out needing
to
> look new. I would not like it to show rust. There are several
> seventies FC available which might work for me. I will have to
learn
> more and follow through as Dan suggested until I find "my" BB. I
am
> getting a picture of what I think I want and at least a very
general
> idea as to price. I appreciate the help given and any to be given.
> If any of you have potential prospects or leads I am listening.
And
> while I have your collective ears another question. Why is it that
> none of these older FC coaches have functioning engine driven AC?
> With all else "good" about BB why would these AC's be bad pretty
> across the board? And wouldn't it be relatively easy to "rig up"
> modern automotive compressors and such to replace the originals?
> Again thanks much JEH
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > JEH,
> > 2 years ago plus I sold a mechanically solid nicely upgraded
83FC35
> > tubo with very good tires and batteries for $30,000. I was a 2
bird
> > owner and needed to sell one. I did a lot of the work myself
and
> > had about $45,000 to $55,000 in it.
> >
> > The current owner has had little expense since and is still
> enjoying
> > it. The coaches are out there. Pics of the coach I sold when I
> > still owned it are here:
> > http://rides.webshots.com/album/154715312Axawnh
> > http://rides.webshots.com/album/192165894pfPFdO
> >
> > The moral, or lesson is that I sold a nice coach for 30K over 2
> years
> > ago. Do not give up, simply search long and hard for a coach
that
> > is "almost" complete. Spend the time to look. Take no one way
> > trips, buy no coach sight unseen. Spend several thousand dollars
> on
> > travel to find the "right one".
> >
> > These forums are the best place to find the right one, as owners
> here
> > tend to maintain and upgrade, plus other members have usually
seen
> > the coach.
> >
> > Dan
> > 94 BB BMC 37'
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> looking
> > at
> > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
it.
> > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
> what
> > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
that
> > and
> > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> would
> > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
But
> I
> > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable
BB
> > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
you've
> > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > yourself
> > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > >
> > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> > Blown
> > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
out
> > to
> > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> cooler
> > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
over
> > to
> > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> close
> > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
the
> > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> system,
> > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
good
> > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > Cold but true.
> > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
> be
> > a
> > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > nothing. At
> > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> prospects.
> > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
> have
> > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > > that's
> > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
restorations
> > and
> > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
sell
> > for
> > > the
> > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
seller
> > when
> > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
buyer
> > > paying
> > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> nice
> > > coach
> > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
exactly
> > the
> > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
> is
> > > the
> > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> > Board
> > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > competition
> > > with
> > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> about
> > > the
> > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
mailed
> > him
> > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> > figure
> > > to
> > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
plus
> > > some.
> > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
could
> > > easily
> > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
$15K
> to
> > > get
> > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> point.
> > If
> > > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> > prove
> > > it.
> > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> > coach
> > > but
> > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
there
> > of.
> > > So
> > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
looking
> > for
> > > a
> > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> idea
> > of
> > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> needed
> > > > repairs will
> > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > refurbished
> > > > coaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
would
> > > rather
> > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
was
> > > > advertised
> > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
> and
> > > seller
> > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
premium
> > for
> > > this
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > sell "average"
> > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> considered "market
> > > price".
> > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
where
> > folks
> > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going
to
> > pay
> > > > that.
> > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> > with
> > > a lot
> > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
with
> > > nothing
> > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more.
In
> > my
> > > > range I
> > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
came
> to
> > > was
> > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
value
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> work
> > I
> > > might
> > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
> get
> > > $50k.
> > > > On
> > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> > $80k.
> > > > >
> > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> with
> > > almost
> > > > no
> > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> those)
> > > right
> > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
> are
> > > those
> > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work
to
> > > make it
> > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>