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+--- Thread: PT36 retarder & other things (/showthread.php?tid=5551)
PT36 retarder & other things - Rob Robinson - 08-23-2007 03:44
I'm with you Shane on the annual tranny fluid change. I use Transynd and
change the spin on filter each time. I leave the sump rock catcher in place.
On 23/08/07, sfedeli3 <sfedeli3@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
> a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
> if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
> close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
> 200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
> In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
> easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
> Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
> additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
> [http://www.le-inc.com] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in numerous vehicles
> for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
> when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
> drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
>
> Shane Fedeli
> 85PT40
> Hershey, PA
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> "davidkerryedwards"
>
> >
> > I found this on another website:
> >
> > Why Atf Wears Out
> > An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
> friction: the friction of the
> > fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
> the clutch plates engage,
> > and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
> loads.
> >
> > It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
> heat up once the vehicle
> > is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
> degrees F., which is the
> > usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
> operate. If fluid
> > temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
> indefinitely -- say up to
> > 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
> life of the fluid begins
> > to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
> temperatures well beyond
> > safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
> >
> > At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
> takes on a smell like
> > burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
> friction characteristics,
> > varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
> which interferes with the
> > operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
> degrees F., rubber seals
> > begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
> temperatures the
> > transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
> more. Eventually the
> > clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
> to repair the damage
> > now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
> $1500 on a late model
> > front-wheel drive car or minivan.
> >
> > As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
> temperature above 175 degrees
> > F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
> >
> > At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
> miles. At 220 degrees,
> > which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
> only good for about
> > 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
> miles. Add another
> > 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
> 300 degrees F., and
> > 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
> burns up.
> >
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> "davidkerryedwards"
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
> temperature ratings
> > > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
> steering. My recollection is
> > > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
> expensive high
> > > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
> transmission fluid was rated
> > as
> > > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
> These numbers are
> > > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
> temperatures of
> > > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
> temperatures over 300
> > > degrees.
> > >
> > > Kerry
> > > 82 FC 35
> > > Denver
> > >
> > > be sure to keep it below
> > > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
> easily goes
> > > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
> fan rob
> > > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
> the 3
> > > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
> brake
> > > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > > Shane Fedeli
> > > > 85PT40
> > > > Hershey, PA
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
--
Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
94 WLWB
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PT36 retarder & other things - Leroy Eckert - 08-23-2007 03:46
Hey Shane:
Does your coach have a retarder temp gauge? Apples and oranges may be what is
happening here.. My tranny temp runs 170 normal. My retarder temp runs 230
normal. Per my book the max temp for the retarder is 320. I cannot remember what
it is for the tranny. The closer to normal, the better.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
Royale Conversion
----- Original Message -----
From: sfedeli3
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:31 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Hi All,
My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
[http://www.le-inc.com] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in numerous vehicles
for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
>
> I found this on another website:
>
> Why Atf Wears Out
> An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
friction: the friction of the
> fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
the clutch plates engage,
> and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
loads.
>
> It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
heat up once the vehicle
> is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
degrees F., which is the
> usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
operate. If fluid
> temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
indefinitely -- say up to
> 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
life of the fluid begins
> to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
temperatures well beyond
> safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
>
> At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
takes on a smell like
> burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
friction characteristics,
> varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
which interferes with the
> operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
degrees F., rubber seals
> begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
temperatures the
> transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
more. Eventually the
> clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
to repair the damage
> now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
$1500 on a late model
> front-wheel drive car or minivan.
>
> As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
temperature above 175 degrees
> F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
>
> At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
miles. At 220 degrees,
> which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
only good for about
> 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
miles. Add another
> 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
300 degrees F., and
> 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
burns up.
>
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> wrote:
> >
> > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
temperature ratings
> > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
steering. My recollection is
> > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
expensive high
> > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
transmission fluid was rated
> as
> > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
These numbers are
> > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
temperatures of
> > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
temperatures over 300
> > degrees.
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> > be sure to keep it below
> > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
easily goes
> > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
fan rob
> > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
the 3
> > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
brake
> > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > Shane Fedeli
> > > 85PT40
> > > Hershey, PA
> > >
> > >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PT36 retarder & other things - erniecarpet@... - 08-23-2007 06:45
I wonder why the Allison manual says to not use the Jake and transmission
retarder together? The jake on my coach is exhaust. The tranny retarder is on
the transmission.
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston, Mt
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PT36 retarder & other things - Howard O. Truitt - 08-23-2007 10:10
Shane,
Could you add a jacob brake and have both a retarder and a jake brake.
Howard T., Sowega, 86 PT40
----- Original Message -----
From: sfedeli3
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:31 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Hi All,
My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
[http://www.le-inc.com] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in numerous vehicles
for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
>
> I found this on another website:
>
> Why Atf Wears Out
> An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
friction: the friction of the
> fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
the clutch plates engage,
> and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
loads.
>
> It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
heat up once the vehicle
> is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
degrees F., which is the
> usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
operate. If fluid
> temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
indefinitely -- say up to
> 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
life of the fluid begins
> to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
temperatures well beyond
> safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
>
> At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
takes on a smell like
> burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
friction characteristics,
> varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
which interferes with the
> operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
degrees F., rubber seals
> begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
temperatures the
> transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
more. Eventually the
> clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
to repair the damage
> now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
$1500 on a late model
> front-wheel drive car or minivan.
>
> As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
temperature above 175 degrees
> F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
>
> At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
miles. At 220 degrees,
> which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
only good for about
> 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
miles. Add another
> 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
300 degrees F., and
> 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
burns up.
>
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> wrote:
> >
> > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
temperature ratings
> > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
steering. My recollection is
> > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
expensive high
> > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
transmission fluid was rated
> as
> > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
These numbers are
> > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
temperatures of
> > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
temperatures over 300
> > degrees.
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> > be sure to keep it below
> > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
easily goes
> > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
fan rob
> > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
the 3
> > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
brake
> > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > Shane Fedeli
> > > 85PT40
> > > Hershey, PA
> > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: 8/22/2007 9:05
AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PT36 retarder & other things - Leroy Eckert - 08-23-2007 10:25
Howard, you sure can. I have two verbal bids for a Jake Brake addition on my
8v92 DDEC II. $9,500 and $9,000. Non -DDEC systems may be slightly cheaper,
around $6-8,000. I did not want to buy a new bus, I just wanted a Jake brake.
lol
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard O. Truitt
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Shane,
Could you add a jacob brake and have both a retarder and a jake brake.
Howard T., Sowega, 86 PT40
----- Original Message -----
From: sfedeli3
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:31 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Hi All,
My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
[http://www.le-inc.com] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in numerous vehicles
for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
>
> I found this on another website:
>
> Why Atf Wears Out
> An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
friction: the friction of the
> fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
the clutch plates engage,
> and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
loads.
>
> It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
heat up once the vehicle
> is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
degrees F., which is the
> usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
operate. If fluid
> temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
indefinitely -- say up to
> 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
life of the fluid begins
> to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
temperatures well beyond
> safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
>
> At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
takes on a smell like
> burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
friction characteristics,
> varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
which interferes with the
> operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
degrees F., rubber seals
> begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
temperatures the
> transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
more. Eventually the
> clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
to repair the damage
> now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
$1500 on a late model
> front-wheel drive car or minivan.
>
> As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
temperature above 175 degrees
> F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
>
> At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
miles. At 220 degrees,
> which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
only good for about
> 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
miles. Add another
> 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
300 degrees F., and
> 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
burns up.
>
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> wrote:
> >
> > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
temperature ratings
> > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
steering. My recollection is
> > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
expensive high
> > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
transmission fluid was rated
> as
> > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
These numbers are
> > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
temperatures of
> > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
temperatures over 300
> > degrees.
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> > be sure to keep it below
> > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
easily goes
> > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
fan rob
> > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
the 3
> > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
brake
> > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > Shane Fedeli
> > > 85PT40
> > > Hershey, PA
> > >
> > >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: 8/22/2007 9:05
AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PT36 retarder & other things - Richard Hayden - 08-23-2007 10:40
I'm not Shane but I have an answer. That is how my bus is arranged. When I got
it the PO had disconnected the Jake. The Allison manual says not to use them
together. Too much torque I guess. I don't know who added the Jake, maybe BB.
I try very hard NOT to use them together. Mostly I use the jake out of town.
However, it isn't as effective as the tranny retarder. But, no head generation
either.
Dick Hayden - '87 PT 38 - Lake Stevens, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard O. Truitt
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Shane,
Could you add a jacob brake and have both a retarder and a jake brake.
Howard T., Sowega, 86 PT40
----- Original Message -----
From: sfedeli3
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:31 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Hi All,
My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
[http://www.le-inc.com<http://www.le-inc.com/>] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in
numerous vehicles
for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA
--- In
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
"davidkerryedwards"
>
> I found this on another website:
>
> Why Atf Wears Out
> An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
friction: the friction of the
> fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
the clutch plates engage,
> and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
loads.
>
> It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
heat up once the vehicle
> is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
degrees F., which is the
> usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
operate. If fluid
> temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
indefinitely -- say up to
> 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
life of the fluid begins
> to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
temperatures well beyond
> safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
>
> At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
takes on a smell like
> burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
friction characteristics,
> varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
which interferes with the
> operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
degrees F., rubber seals
> begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
temperatures the
> transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
more. Eventually the
> clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
to repair the damage
> now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
$1500 on a late model
> front-wheel drive car or minivan.
>
> As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
temperature above 175 degrees
> F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
>
> At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
miles. At 220 degrees,
> which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
only good for about
> 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
miles. Add another
> 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
300 degrees F., and
> 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
burns up.
>
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
>
> --- In
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
"davidkerryedwards"
> wrote:
> >
> > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
temperature ratings
> > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
steering. My recollection is
> > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
expensive high
> > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
transmission fluid was rated
> as
> > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
These numbers are
> > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
temperatures of
> > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
temperatures over 300
> > degrees.
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> > be sure to keep it below
> > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
easily goes
> > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
fan rob
> > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
the 3
> > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
brake
> > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > Shane Fedeli
> > > 85PT40
> > > Hershey, PA
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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PT36 retarder & other things - Howard O. Truitt - 08-23-2007 10:43
Thanks Leroy,
Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: Leroy Eckert
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Howard, you sure can. I have two verbal bids for a Jake Brake addition on my
8v92 DDEC II. $9,500 and $9,000. Non -DDEC systems may be slightly cheaper,
around $6-8,000. I did not want to buy a new bus, I just wanted a Jake brake.
lol
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard O. Truitt
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Shane,
Could you add a jacob brake and have both a retarder and a jake brake.
Howard T., Sowega, 86 PT40
----- Original Message -----
From: sfedeli3
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:31 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
Hi All,
My tranny reading is regularly 230 degrees. Of course, it could be
a faulty sending unit, but my engine oil temp is around the same too,
if not a little warmer. I would expect both oil sumps to be pretty
close in temperature and seem to recall the blue book indicating that
200 to 250 was the normal operating temp for the Allison that I have.
In any event, I change the fluid annually. It's relatively cheap and
easy to do on the mid-80's PT models. You just need a BIG bucket.
Varying brands of tranny fluid have different flash points and
additives. I've been using Lubrication Engineers
[http://www.le-inc.com] 7500 MONOLEC® Power Fluid in numerous vehicles
for a number of years with great results and never smell burned fluid
when I drain. If you're really concerned about the tranny temps, or
drive the western Rockies, get a Jacobs Engine Retarder.
Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
>
> I found this on another website:
>
> Why Atf Wears Out
> An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through
friction: the friction of the
> fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when
the clutch plates engage,
> and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their
loads.
>
> It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to
heat up once the vehicle
> is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures to 175
degrees F., which is the
> usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to
operate. If fluid
> temperatures can be held to 175 degrees F., ATF will last almost
indefinitely -- say up to
> 100,000 miles. But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the
life of the fluid begins
> to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid
temperatures well beyond
> safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.
>
> At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and
takes on a smell like
> burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and
friction characteristics,
> varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body)
which interferes with the
> operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 250
degrees F., rubber seals
> begin to harden, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher
temperatures the
> transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even
more. Eventually the
> clutches burn out and the transmission calls it quits. The only way
to repair the damage
> now is with an overhaul -- a job which can easily run upwards of
$1500 on a late model
> front-wheel drive car or minivan.
>
> As a rule of thumb, every 20 degree increase in operating
temperature above 175 degrees
> F. cuts the life of the fluid in half!
>
> At 195 degrees F., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 50,000
miles. At 220 degrees,
> which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is
only good for about
> 25,000 miles. At 240 degrees F., the fluid won't go much over 10,000
miles. Add another
> 20 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 5,000 miles. Go to 295 or
300 degrees F., and
> 1,000 to 1,500 miles is about all you'll get before the transmission
burns up.
>
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> wrote:
> >
> > Those temperatures seem really high to me. I was looking at hose
temperature ratings
> > and fluid temperature ratings when I was redoing my power
steering. My recollection is
> > that standard hydraulic hose was rated to 250 degrees and the
expensive high
> > temperature hose was rated to 325 or 350. I think regular
transmission fluid was rated
> as
> > functional up to about 250 degrees and synthetics up to about 350.
These numbers are
> > from my memory, If anyone else has knowledge about the functional
temperatures of
> > transmission fluid, I'd like to know. I'd be quite concerned with
temperatures over 300
> > degrees.
> >
> > Kerry
> > 82 FC 35
> > Denver
> >
> > be sure to keep it below
> > > 320-330 degrees or you'll shorten the life of the tranny fluid
> > > greatly. Most commercial bus drivers have to change the tranny fluid
> > > every 50K miles when using the tranny retarder often. Mine
easily goes
> > > from 230 to 300 degrees when descending a steep off-ramp. One way to
> > > slow the heat is to engage the fan override and let the hydro
fan rob
> > > 25-30 horses from the engine and cool the tranny fluid a little
> > > quicker. On an off-ramp it does not make much difference, but on
the 3
> > > or 4 mile grade, you can usually make it to the bottom under 320
> > > degrees if you also use the service brakes along with the tranny
brake
> > > and fan to slow the coach down.
> > > Shane Fedeli
> > > 85PT40
> > > Hershey, PA
> > >
> > >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------
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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: 8/22/2007 9:05
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PT36 retarder & other things - Richard Hayden - 08-23-2007 10:57
I don't know Ernie. It's arranged the same on mine. The Allison Operator's
Manual simply states not to use them together with no expansion on that. I did
operate the bus using both at first until I got my hands on an Operator's
Manual, no more. Maybe one of gurus can offer something.
Dick Hayden - '87 PT 38 - Lake Stevens, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: erniecarpet@...
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
I wonder why the Allison manual says to not use the Jake and transmission
retarder together? The jake on my coach is exhaust. The tranny retarder is on
the transmission.
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston, Mt
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom3\
0tour>
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PT36 retarder & other things - Richard Hayden - 08-23-2007 11:13
Here's what the Allison Operator's Manual says on page 18, in a Caution box at
the bottom of the page:
"DO NOT OPERATE THE INPUT OR OUTPUT RETARTDER SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH AN ENGINE
EXHAUST BRAKE. Extreme torque loads can be produced in the range section,
damaging the transmission".
Leroy may have some other information on this. I know he was looking into doing
this very thing.
Dick Hayden - '87 PT 38 - Lake Stevens, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hayden
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
I don't know Ernie. It's arranged the same on mine. The Allison Operator's
Manual simply states not to use them together with no expansion on that. I did
operate the bus using both at first until I got my hands on an Operator's
Manual, no more. Maybe one of gurus can offer something.
Dick Hayden - '87 PT 38 - Lake Stevens, WA
----- Original Message -----
From:
erniecarpet@...
To:
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: PT36 retarder & other things
I wonder why the Allison manual says to not use the Jake and transmission
retarder together? The jake on my coach is exhaust. The tranny retarder is on
the transmission.
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston, Mt
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom3\
0tour><http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discover.aol.com/memed/\
aolcom30tour>>
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PT36 retarder & other things - Don Bradner - 08-23-2007 11:15
At a guess, too much stopping power. Think about it this way: You have your
drivers turning freely, no brakes applied. They are in turn running the rear-end
and the rest of the drive train back through the transmission and engine.
Now imagine you have some ability to "clamp" down on that drive line at the
engine, without producing excessive heat, to the point that you could actually
stop it from turning. How much before you got to that point, with the wheels
starting to slide, do you think you would potentially suffer damage to some
portion of the driveline?
Our Allison's can handle 500HP, but the combination of Jake and retarder is
capable of more than 500HP of stopping power. Not enough to freeze the driveline
unless you are on a slippery road, but you could come close.
On 8/23/2007 at 6:45 PM erniecarpet@... wrote:
>I wonder why the Allison manual says to not use the Jake and transmission
>
>retarder together? The jake on my coach is exhaust. The tranny retarder is
>on
>the transmission.
>
>Ernie Ekberg
>83PT40
>Livingston, Mt