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Another Bird fire - Printable Version

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Another Bird fire - mbulriss - 11-27-2009 06:52

Hmmm, my inspection of my wiring over the last few weeks discovered a similar
thing: someone, presumably Bird, routed a ground cable directly together with
the positive cables and it was tie wrapped all along its length and right down
on top of a stud connecting two positive cable lugs together!!! That was along
the heat shield between the engine and batteries. Luckily the stud had a rubber
boot that was on cockeyed, but had protected the ground cable. I am going back
and look one more time for any more of those.

Mike Bulriss
1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
San Antonio, TX

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Elliot wrote:
>
>
> Checked mine and one of the negative cables was stretched tight enough that
the screw head on the positive clamp had vibrated through the plastic sheath.
Wouldn't take much more to dead short across that battery!
>
> Elliot
> 1995 WLWB 40
> RARA AVIS
> NW, Illinois
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ronmarabito2002
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Nov 26, 2009 8:05 pm
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine to
check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a shame.
I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> >
> > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that if
the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the
coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might
want to check the routing of these cables.
> > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to
wear thru.
> > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> >
>

Another Bird fire - Pete Masterson - 11-27-2009 07:35

I think it should be pretty obvious that all high-amperage, unfused battery cables ought to be checked carefully.
That would include the house batteries -- in a '95 those are contained in the rear-most curb-side compartment and on a tray by the engine. In addition, there are 3 engine batteries above the 2 house batteries near the engine.
The house batteries are wired to a general distribution panel on the curb side of the firewall. The engine batteries are wired to the engine -- but also have a connection to the house batteries (as you can tie them together with a switch on the dash).
The Bakersfield fire _might_ have been caused by a short from the house batteries and/or the firewall distribution panel. (We await further word from the fire inspector and/or insurance adjuster.)
Randy's fire was caused by a dead short in the front most, street side compartment, where the battery cable (running 40-some feet from the curb-side rear to the street side front-most compartment) that serves the generator starter motor. Apparently, from the report of the fire inspector and insurance adjuster, it appears that the insulation had been compromised where the heavy cable passed over a frame rail.
We all may have been a little complacent over the 12v systems, since 12 v current rarely causes much of a fire or electrocution issue. It's easy to forget just how much potential amperage that the batteries can release in a dead short.
The suggestion to install a high-amperage (slow acting) fuse on the batteries makes a lot of sense. A slow acting fuse is required since things like the engine and generator starter motor can draw a brief, very high amperage burst -- and you don't want to blow the fuse. But a short would cause a longer drain, and would blow the fuse.
Of course, a careful inspection of all the high-amperage wires is called for. Unfortunately, wires may pass through areas where visible inspection is difficult or impossible. (Mirrors mounted to extension handles and flashlights would be quite useful.) Even so, it's likely that there are places where thorough inspection will prove impossible. (Which simply increases the importance of fusing the batteries.)
Another 'wise' modification would be to install a high-amperage switch to completely isolate the batteries from the coach. Marine supplies sell such switches for boats and they can be adapted to motorhome use quite easily. The added advantage of such a switch would be to ensure that all phantom loads (which BBs have in abundance) would be cut off, allowing longer storage periods without a charger on the batteries.
In the Bakersfield situation, it's hard to discern how the fire might have been avoided. The owner reported that he'd inspected the wires (as best as he could) after hearing about Randy's fire. It is unlikely that any of us would have shut off all the batteries while in a nearby restaurant for dinner -- but fuses _might_ have saved the coach, had they been installed. (Then, again, pending a final determination of the cause of the fire, it might not have been effective.)
Pete Masterson
(former) '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"



On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ernie Ekberg wrote:


Where I observed was the batteries on the curbside, close to the firewall of the engine compartment

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Wanderlodge
Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991

--- OnThu, 11/26/09, SteveQ<"smquandt@yahoo.com">wrote:
From: SteveQ <"smquandt@yahoo.com">
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
To:"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"
Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:27 PM

Ron, Ernie

Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine batteries when you say main battery bank? I looked at everything after Randy's fire but will give it another CLOSER look when I get back to Texas next month.

Steve Quandt
1993 PT-40
Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX

--- InWanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "ronmarabito2002" wrote:
>
>
> Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine to check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
>
> --- InWanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> >
> > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might want to check the routing of these cables.
> > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to wear thru.
> > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> >
>




Another Bird fire - gregory O - 11-27-2009 08:15

probably best to leave things as they were designed by BB and maintain the
design. On my bus the design has a proven record of 48,000 miles and 14 years.
many things done in the spirit of safety are not obvious.your fuse mod may be
plagued with fault

on a car, crap like lead battery cable ends on the battery post are by design
less secure then the other battery cable end connected to the starter so an
accident would cause the cable to break away from the battery and not the
starter. modifications like slow burn fuses should consider all the variables.
I wonder how much heat the slow acting fuse produce.I wonder how many more
connections and failure points are created with all the safety mods members will
add during this rush for safety. every high amp connection has two soldered ends
that need to be secured.

One big question for me was why did the BB engineers use glass fuses and
resettable beakers in different areas. I like the resettable breakers
convenience but fear the lesson learned when a function trips a fuse and was
reset automaticaly with out alerting my attention is lost. I replaced my brake
lght auto reset with glass for this reason.
Greg
94ptca



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> I think it should be pretty obvious that all high-amperage, unfused
> battery cables ought to be checked carefully.
> That would include the house batteries -- in a '95 those are contained
> in the rear-most curb-side compartment and on a tray by the engine. In
> addition, there are 3 engine batteries above the 2 house batteries
> near the engine.
>
> The house batteries are wired to a general distribution panel on the
> curb side of the firewall. The engine batteries are wired to the
> engine -- but also have a connection to the house batteries (as you
> can tie them together with a switch on the dash).
>
> The Bakersfield fire _might_ have been caused by a short from the
> house batteries and/or the firewall distribution panel. (We await
> further word from the fire inspector and/or insurance adjuster.)
>
> Randy's fire was caused by a dead short in the front most, street side
> compartment, where the battery cable (running 40-some feet from the
> curb-side rear to the street side front-most compartment) that serves
> the generator starter motor. Apparently, from the report of the fire
> inspector and insurance adjuster, it appears that the insulation had
> been compromised where the heavy cable passed over a frame rail.
>
> We all may have been a little complacent over the 12v systems, since
> 12 v current rarely causes much of a fire or electrocution issue. It's
> easy to forget just how much potential amperage that the batteries can
> release in a dead short.
>
> The suggestion to install a high-amperage (slow acting) fuse on the
> batteries makes a lot of sense. A slow acting fuse is required since
> things like the engine and generator starter motor can draw a brief,
> very high amperage burst -- and you don't want to blow the fuse. But a
> short would cause a longer drain, and would blow the fuse.
>
> Of course, a careful inspection of all the high-amperage wires is
> called for. Unfortunately, wires may pass through areas where visible
> inspection is difficult or impossible. (Mirrors mounted to extension
> handles and flashlights would be quite useful.) Even so, it's likely
> that there are places where thorough inspection will prove impossible.
> (Which simply increases the importance of fusing the batteries.)
>
> Another 'wise' modification would be to install a high-amperage switch
> to completely isolate the batteries from the coach. Marine supplies
> sell such switches for boats and they can be adapted to motorhome use
> quite easily. The added advantage of such a switch would be to ensure
> that all phantom loads (which BBs have in abundance) would be cut off,
> allowing longer storage periods without a charger on the batteries.
>
> In the Bakersfield situation, it's hard to discern how the fire might
> have been avoided. The owner reported that he'd inspected the wires
> (as best as he could) after hearing about Randy's fire. It is unlikely
> that any of us would have shut off all the batteries while in a nearby
> restaurant for dinner -- but fuses _might_ have saved the coach, had
> they been installed. (Then, again, pending a final determination of
> the cause of the fire, it might not have been effective.)
>
> Pete Masterson
> (former) '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ernie Ekberg wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Where I observed was the batteries on the curbside, close to the
> > firewall of the engine compartment
> >
> > Ernie Ekberg
> > 83PT40
> > Wanderlodge
> > Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991
> > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erniesremodelingandrepair
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 11/26/09, SteveQ wrote:
> >
> > From: SteveQ
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:27 PM
> >
> > Ron, Ernie
> >
> > Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine
> > batteries when you say main battery bank? I looked at everything
> > after Randy's fire but will give it another CLOSER look when I get
> > back to Texas next month.
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT-40
> > Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
> > Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum
> > after mine to check these cables and apparently it just went right
> > by everyone. What a shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and
> > checks these cables now.
> > >
> > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Ernie E"
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s
> > coaches, that if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the
> > main battery bank. Since the coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95
> > models, those with coaches of this era might want to check the
> > routing of these cables.
> > > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many
> > years to wear thru.
> > > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Another Bird fire - bumpersbird - 11-27-2009 09:55

We are up to 3 coach fires, Randy, Rob and R.E. (Ron) Marabito

All the coaches are 90 to 95 vintage. If they were Airplanes they would
be grounded, until the problem was found.

Folks this has gotten to the point where I for one will have my coach
wiring inspected from Bumper to Bumper by the Pro's. I've been all thru
everything I can get to. So did Rob from what I've heard, and there was
still a Gremlin in his coach.

I've always had Gremlins in my Bird, just part of the program.

I no long consider this just coincidence, So until I can have my coach
inspected by not one but two or three different professionals, (Prevost,
Whites Creek TN, Hemphill Bros, Nashville TN, Maryville Marine/Xantrex,
Whitehouse TN )

Any T-Fuses that I haven't already changed will be replaced with a
proper fuse holders, not a the pipe stand off with the fuse wrapped in
electricans tape, that BB used to hold the fuse. Any qustionable wires
will be replaced. Possibly Fuse the Batteries, anything else that can
make my coach safer. It's become obvious that there is a problem with
the design.

Until then.

Indulgance is grounded.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gregory O" wrote:
>
> probably best to leave things as they were designed by BB and maintain
the design. On my bus the design has a proven record of 48,000 miles and
14 years. many things done in the spirit of safety are not obvious.your
fuse mod may be plagued with fault
>
> on a car, crap like lead battery cable ends on the battery post are by
design less secure then the other battery cable end connected to the
starter so an accident would cause the cable to break away from the
battery and not the starter. modifications like slow burn fuses should
consider all the variables. I wonder how much heat the slow acting fuse
produce.I wonder how many more connections and failure points are
created with all the safety mods members will add during this rush for
safety. every high amp connection has two soldered ends that need to be
secured.
>
> One big question for me was why did the BB engineers use glass fuses
and resettable beakers in different areas. I like the resettable
breakers convenience but fear the lesson learned when a function trips a
fuse and was reset automaticaly with out alerting my attention is lost.
I replaced my brake lght auto reset with glass for this reason.
> Greg
> 94ptca
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson aeonix1@
wrote:
> >
> > I think it should be pretty obvious that all high-amperage, unfused
> > battery cables ought to be checked carefully.
> > That would include the house batteries -- in a '95 those are
contained
> > in the rear-most curb-side compartment and on a tray by the engine.
In
> > addition, there are 3 engine batteries above the 2 house batteries
> > near the engine.
> >
> > The house batteries are wired to a general distribution panel on the
> > curb side of the firewall. The engine batteries are wired to the
> > engine -- but also have a connection to the house batteries (as you
> > can tie them together with a switch on the dash).
> >
> > The Bakersfield fire _might_ have been caused by a short from the
> > house batteries and/or the firewall distribution panel. (We await
> > further word from the fire inspector and/or insurance adjuster.)
> >
> > Randy's fire was caused by a dead short in the front most, street
side
> > compartment, where the battery cable (running 40-some feet from the
> > curb-side rear to the street side front-most compartment) that
serves
> > the generator starter motor. Apparently, from the report of the fire
> > inspector and insurance adjuster, it appears that the insulation had
> > been compromised where the heavy cable passed over a frame rail.
> >
> > We all may have been a little complacent over the 12v systems, since
> > 12 v current rarely causes much of a fire or electrocution issue.
It's
> > easy to forget just how much potential amperage that the batteries
can
> > release in a dead short.
> >
> > The suggestion to install a high-amperage (slow acting) fuse on the
> > batteries makes a lot of sense. A slow acting fuse is required since
> > things like the engine and generator starter motor can draw a brief,
> > very high amperage burst -- and you don't want to blow the fuse. But
a
> > short would cause a longer drain, and would blow the fuse.
> >
> > Of course, a careful inspection of all the high-amperage wires is
> > called for. Unfortunately, wires may pass through areas where
visible
> > inspection is difficult or impossible. (Mirrors mounted to extension
> > handles and flashlights would be quite useful.) Even so, it's likely
> > that there are places where thorough inspection will prove
impossible.
> > (Which simply increases the importance of fusing the batteries.)
> >
> > Another 'wise' modification would be to install a high-amperage
switch
> > to completely isolate the batteries from the coach. Marine supplies
> > sell such switches for boats and they can be adapted to motorhome
use
> > quite easily. The added advantage of such a switch would be to
ensure
> > that all phantom loads (which BBs have in abundance) would be cut
off,
> > allowing longer storage periods without a charger on the batteries.
> >
> > In the Bakersfield situation, it's hard to discern how the fire
might
> > have been avoided. The owner reported that he'd inspected the wires
> > (as best as he could) after hearing about Randy's fire. It is
unlikely
> > that any of us would have shut off all the batteries while in a
nearby
> > restaurant for dinner -- but fuses _might_ have saved the coach, had
> > they been installed. (Then, again, pending a final determination of
> > the cause of the fire, it might not have been effective.)
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > (former) '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > El Sobrante CA
> > aeonix1@
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ernie Ekberg wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Where I observed was the batteries on the curbside, close to the
> > > firewall of the engine compartment
> > >
> > > Ernie Ekberg
> > > 83PT40
> > > Wanderlodge
> > > Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991
> > > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erniesremodelingandrepair
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 11/26/09, SteveQ smquandt@ wrote:
> > >
> > > From: SteveQ smquandt@
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:27 PM
> > >
> > > Ron, Ernie
> > >
> > > Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine
> > > batteries when you say main battery bank? I looked at everything
> > > after Randy's fire but will give it another CLOSER look when I get
> > > back to Texas next month.
> > >
> > > Steve Quandt
> > > 1993 PT-40
> > > Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
> > > Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum
> > > after mine to check these cables and apparently it just went right
> > > by everyone. What a shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and
> > > checks these cables now.
> > > >
> > > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Ernie E"
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s
> > > coaches, that if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the
> > > main battery bank. Since the coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95
> > > models, those with coaches of this era might want to check the
> > > routing of these cables.
> > > > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these
many
> > > years to wear thru.
> > > > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Another Bird fire - Wallace Craig - 11-27-2009 10:17

Kurt, very wise decision. Be sure your insurance is current and than do the best you can to find and correct the problem.İmage


Wallace Craig
95 WLWB 42
Azle, Texas

--- On Fri, 11/27/09, bumpersbird wrote:

From: bumpersbird
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 3:55 PM


We are up to 3 coach fires, Randy, Rob and R.E. (Ron) Marabito

All the coaches are 90 to 95 vintage. If they were Airplanes they would
be grounded, until the problem was found.

Folks this has gotten to the point where I for one will have my coach
wiring inspected from Bumper to Bumper by the Pro's. I've been all thru
everything I can get to. So did Rob from what I've heard, and there was
still a Gremlin in his coach.

I've always had Gremlins in my Bird, just part of the program.

I no long consider this just coincidence, So until I can have my coach
inspected by not one but two or three different professionals, (Prevost,
Whites Creek TN, Hemphill Bros, Nashville TN, Maryville Marine/Xantrex,
Whitehouse TN )

Any T-Fuses that I haven't already changed will be replaced with a
proper fuse holders, not a the pipe stand off with the fuse wrapped in
electricans tape, that BB
used to hold the fuse. Any qustionable wires
will be replaced. Possibly Fuse the Batteries, anything else that can
make my coach safer. It's become obvious that there is a problem with
the design.

Until then.

Indulgance is grounded.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gregory O" wrote:
>
> probably best to leave things as they were designed by BB and maintain
the design. On my bus the design has a proven record of 48,000 miles and
14 years. many things done in the spirit of safety are not obvious.your
fuse mod may be plagued with fault
>
> on a car, crap like lead battery cable ends on the battery post are by
design less secure then the other battery cable end connected to
the
starter so an accident would cause the cable to break away from the
battery and not the starter. modifications like slow burn fuses should
consider all the variables. I wonder how much heat the slow acting fuse
produce.I wonder how many more connections and failure points are
created with all the safety mods members will add during this rush for
safety. every high amp connection has two soldered ends that need to be
secured.
>
> One big question for me was why did the BB engineers use glass fuses
and resettable beakers in different areas. I like the resettable
breakers convenience but fear the lesson learned when a function trips a
fuse and was reset automaticaly with out alerting my attention is lost.
I replaced my brake lght auto reset with glass for this reason.
> Greg
> 94ptca
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson aeonix1@
wrote:
> >
> > I think it should be pretty obvious that all high-amperage, unfused
> > battery cables ought to be checked carefully.
> > That would include the house batteries -- in a '95 those are
contained
> > in the rear-most curb-side compartment and on a tray by the engine.
In
> > addition, there are 3 engine batteries above the 2 house batteries
> > near the engine.
> >
> > The house batteries are wired to a general distribution panel on the
> > curb side of the firewall. The engine batteries are wired to the
> > engine -- but also have a connection to the house batteries (as you
> > can tie them together with a switch on the
dash).
> >
> > The Bakersfield fire _might_ have been caused by a short from the
> > house batteries and/or the firewall distribution panel. (We await
> > further word from the fire inspector and/or insurance adjuster.)
> >
> > Randy's fire was caused by a dead short in the front most, street
side
> > compartment, where the battery cable (running 40-some feet from the
> > curb-side rear to the street side front-most compartment) that
serves
> > the generator starter motor. Apparently, from the report of the fire
> > inspector and insurance adjuster, it appears that the insulation had
> > been compromised where the heavy cable passed over a frame rail.
> >
> > We all may have been a little complacent over the 12v systems, since
> > 12 v current rarely causes much of a fire or electrocution issue.
It's
> > easy to
forget just how much potential amperage that the batteries
can
> > release in a dead short.
> >
> > The suggestion to install a high-amperage (slow acting) fuse on the
> > batteries makes a lot of sense. A slow acting fuse is required since
> > things like the engine and generator starter motor can draw a brief,
> > very high amperage burst -- and you don't want to blow the fuse. But
a
> > short would cause a longer drain, and would blow the fuse.
> >
> > Of course, a careful inspection of all the high-amperage wires is
> > called for. Unfortunately, wires may pass through areas where
visible
> > inspection is difficult or impossible. (Mirrors mounted to extension
> > handles and flashlights would be quite useful.) Even so, it's likely
> > that there are places where thorough inspection will prove
impossible.
> >
(Which simply increases the importance of fusing the batteries.)
> >
> > Another 'wise' modification would be to install a high-amperage
switch
> > to completely isolate the batteries from the coach. Marine supplies
> > sell such switches for boats and they can be adapted to motorhome
use
> > quite easily. The added advantage of such a switch would be to
ensure
> > that all phantom loads (which BBs have in abundance) would be cut
off,
> > allowing longer storage periods without a charger on the batteries.
> >
> > In the Bakersfield situation, it's hard to discern how the fire
might
> > have been avoided. The owner reported that he'd inspected the wires
> > (as best as he could) after hearing about Randy's fire. It is
unlikely
> > that any of us would have shut off all the batteries while in a
nearby
> > restaurant for
dinner -- but fuses _might_ have saved the coach, had
> > they been installed. (Then, again, pending a final determination of
> > the cause of the fire, it might not have been effective.)
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > (former) '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > El Sobrante CA
> > aeonix1@
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ernie Ekberg wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Where I observed was the batteries on the curbside, close to the
> > > firewall of the engine compartment
> > >
> > > Ernie Ekberg
> > > 83PT40
> > > Wanderlodge
> > > Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991
> > > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erniesremodelingandrepair
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 11/26/09, SteveQ smquandt@ wrote:
> > >
> > > From: SteveQ smquandt@
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:27 PM
> > >
> > > Ron, Ernie
> > >
> > > Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine
> > > batteries when you say main battery bank? I looked at everything
> > > after Randy's fire but will give it another CLOSER look when I get
> > > back to Texas next month.
> > >
> > > Steve
Quandt
> > > 1993 PT-40
> > > Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
> > > Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum
> > > after mine to check these cables and apparently it just went right
> > > by everyone. What a shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and
> > > checks these cables now.
> > > >
> > > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Ernie E"
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires
with the 90s
> > > coaches, that if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the
> > > main battery bank. Since the coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95
> > > models, those with coaches of this era might want to check the
> > > routing of these cables.
> > > > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these
many
> > > years to wear thru.
> > > > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>





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Another Bird fire - freewill2008 - 11-27-2009 12:35

Exellent comments Pete, but readers should be cautioned that fuses in high
amperage cables may not provide complete protection. Consider a 200 amp fuse
placed to protect a main DC supply cable. An insulation breach can start slowly
and generate a great deal of heat without popping the fuse. In areas where
engine heat, oil, and abrasion are present, the resistance of insulation can
break down and start generating heat long before there is a full metal-to-metal
short. By the time the breach gets bad enough to pop the 200 amp fuse enough
heat may have been generated to start a fire.

Fuses are very important, but vigilant inspection is a must for safety.

Bob Griesel '84 FC31 WLII WA


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> I think it should be pretty obvious that all high-amperage, unfused
> battery cables ought to be checked carefully.
> That would include the house batteries -- in a '95 those are contained
> in the rear-most curb-side compartment and on a tray by the engine. In
> addition, there are 3 engine batteries above the 2 house batteries
> near the engine.
>
> The house batteries are wired to a general distribution panel on the
> curb side of the firewall. The engine batteries are wired to the
> engine -- but also have a connection to the house batteries (as you
> can tie them together with a switch on the dash).
>
> The Bakersfield fire _might_ have been caused by a short from the
> house batteries and/or the firewall distribution panel. (We await
> further word from the fire inspector and/or insurance adjuster.)
>
> Randy's fire was caused by a dead short in the front most, street side
> compartment, where the battery cable (running 40-some feet from the
> curb-side rear to the street side front-most compartment) that serves
> the generator starter motor. Apparently, from the report of the fire
> inspector and insurance adjuster, it appears that the insulation had
> been compromised where the heavy cable passed over a frame rail.
>
> We all may have been a little complacent over the 12v systems, since
> 12 v current rarely causes much of a fire or electrocution issue. It's
> easy to forget just how much potential amperage that the batteries can
> release in a dead short.
>
> The suggestion to install a high-amperage (slow acting) fuse on the
> batteries makes a lot of sense. A slow acting fuse is required since
> things like the engine and generator starter motor can draw a brief,
> very high amperage burst -- and you don't want to blow the fuse. But a
> short would cause a longer drain, and would blow the fuse.
>
> Of course, a careful inspection of all the high-amperage wires is
> called for. Unfortunately, wires may pass through areas where visible
> inspection is difficult or impossible. (Mirrors mounted to extension
> handles and flashlights would be quite useful.) Even so, it's likely
> that there are places where thorough inspection will prove impossible.
> (Which simply increases the importance of fusing the batteries.)
>
> Another 'wise' modification would be to install a high-amperage switch
> to completely isolate the batteries from the coach. Marine supplies
> sell such switches for boats and they can be adapted to motorhome use
> quite easily. The added advantage of such a switch would be to ensure
> that all phantom loads (which BBs have in abundance) would be cut off,
> allowing longer storage periods without a charger on the batteries.
>
> In the Bakersfield situation, it's hard to discern how the fire might
> have been avoided. The owner reported that he'd inspected the wires
> (as best as he could) after hearing about Randy's fire. It is unlikely
> that any of us would have shut off all the batteries while in a nearby
> restaurant for dinner -- but fuses _might_ have saved the coach, had
> they been installed. (Then, again, pending a final determination of
> the cause of the fire, it might not have been effective.)
>
> Pete Masterson
> (former) '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ernie Ekberg wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Where I observed was the batteries on the curbside, close to the
> > firewall of the engine compartment
> >
> > Ernie Ekberg
> > 83PT40
> > Wanderlodge
> > Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991
> > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erniesremodelingandrepair
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 11/26/09, SteveQ wrote:
> >
> > From: SteveQ
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:27 PM
> >
> > Ron, Ernie
> >
> > Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine
> > batteries when you say main battery bank? I looked at everything
> > after Randy's fire but will give it another CLOSER look when I get
> > back to Texas next month.
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT-40
> > Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
> > Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum
> > after mine to check these cables and apparently it just went right
> > by everyone. What a shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and
> > checks these cables now.
> > >
> > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Ernie E"
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s
> > coaches, that if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the
> > main battery bank. Since the coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95
> > models, those with coaches of this era might want to check the
> > routing of these cables.
> > > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many
> > years to wear thru.
> > > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Another Bird fire - ronmarabito2002 - 11-27-2009 13:01

The house battery bank, that is on two slideout trays. These cables go to a
terminal block on the frame right behind them. It is possible that the cables
can be compromised when the batteries are moved back into position. The cables
have extra length to allow you to slide the trays into an open position.

I haven't done mine yet, but I would suggest splitting a water hose and slipping
it around the battery cables to prevent them from chafing together or rubbing on
the frame.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveQ" wrote:
>
> Ron, Ernie
>
> Are you refering to the house batteries or the three engine batteries when you
say main battery bank? I looked at everything after Randy's fire but will give
it another CLOSER look when I get back to Texas next month.
>
> Steve Quandt
> 1993 PT-40
> Cold in Iron Mountain, Mi
> Coach enjoying warm weather in Marble Falls TX
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine
to check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a
shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> > >
> > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that
if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the
coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might
want to check the routing of these cables.
> > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to
wear thru.
> > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > >
> >
>

Another Bird fire - ronmarabito2002 - 11-27-2009 13:06

The plastic insulation or outer covering of the cables is what burns. This
in-turn sets oily engine compartment insulation and other materials on fire,
then moving into the coach interior. Lots of flamables in the closet area right
above the house batteries.

I had the advantage of being present when mine caught fire. The other two
members were not present when their fires started.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "dan" wrote:
>
> Ron, I know you understand what it is like to have trouble in another country
as you did in canada. I wanted to ask, what it is that burns there. I know the
cable shorts and gets hot but what is it that then catches on fire and burns the
coach? Thanks, Dan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ronmarabito2002
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:05 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
>
>
>
>
> Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine to
check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a shame.
I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> >
> > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that
if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the
coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might
want to check the routing of these cables.
> > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to
wear thru.
> > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> >
>

Another Bird fire - ronmarabito2002 - 11-27-2009 13:13

Sorry Greg, but the fact is: it was the battery cables and not other issues in
my case. Absolutely not damage to anything else except the cables and shunts.
Having looked very close at my damage, it was pretty obvious what hat taken
place.

Curious about you thinking I didn't learn anything from the engine re-build.
Just exactly what are you incinuating?

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gregory O" wrote:
>
> I dont think our advice went past everyone without a review, especially Rob. I
dont think your issues were limited to the single ground short at the battery
box and bet Robs was not the same failure. I also dont think you have corrected
all the issues with your coach as it is now. You didnt learn with the engine
rebuild . now with the rewire of your rig leaving many more mods and changes,
chances are there is a next problem waiting to happen. I suspect Rob will do
like Randy and not hide opinion and review in fear of conflicting with the best
return on an insurance claim.
>
> There is a heat sheild on the curb/manifold of the 8v92 that keeps hot air
off of the start batteries. problem is there is a blank spot that leaves the
mess of wires exposed to the heat on the fire-wall behind the batteries. on my
and several rigs the plastic loom protectors are melted and removed. I was
thinking of closing this area off with a thin sheet of metal but wonder if it
will obstruct necessary movement of air past the engine. I may just wrap the
wire area with a fabric heat schield????? (This manifold heat is the same heat
that takes out the pressure protection valve for the bulk oil, which is on the
manifold side of the heat shield)
>
> there are two commercial jump start lugs as you open the rear engine bay door
to the right. the positive should be covered with a rubber boot
>
> batteries blow up, maybe there is too much fuel of wire insulation around this
area and the batteries need a box or cover????
>
> Greg
> 94ptca
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine
to check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a
shame. I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> > >
> > > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that
if the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the
coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might
want to check the routing of these cables.
> > > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to
wear thru.
> > > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> > >
> >
>

Another Bird fire - ronmarabito2002 - 11-27-2009 13:17

Good to hear. Apparently this inspection saved another coach from going up in
flames.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Elliot wrote:
>
>
> Checked mine and one of the negative cables was stretched tigh t enough that
the screw head on the positive clamp had vibrated through the plastic sheath.
Wouldn't take much more to dead short across that battery!
>
> Elliot
> 1995 WLWB 40
> RARA AVIS
> NW, Illinois
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ronmarabito2002
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Nov 26, 2009 8:05 pm
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Another Bird fire
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry to hear of the loss of anyones coach. I warned the forum after mine to
check these cables and apparently it just went right by everyone. What a shame.
I sure hope everyone gets out there and checks these cables now.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie E" wrote:
> >
> > I am wondering, since there have been 3 fires with the 90s coaches, that if
the battery cables are being chaffed behind the main battery bank. Since the
coaches involved were 92, 94 and 95 models, those with coaches of this era might
want to check the routing of these cables.
> > This is too much of a coincidence and may have taken these many years to
wear thru.
> > Fortunately, nobody in all 3 coaches were hurt.
> > Ernie- 83PT40 in New River, Az
> >
>