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+--- Thread: NADA Wanderlodge Listings (/showthread.php?tid=10453)
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - markusfmeyer - 04-20-2015 08:31
Interesting thread here. I don't see any mob mentality on WOG. I don't see public lynching. As a matter of fact I've seen some asking Chuck to reconsider leaving. What I have seen here is lots of anger, whining, venting and name calling. Is that what you are saying is class? I haven't seen that on WOG.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-20-2015 08:39
I really appreciate Don's and Markus's input, and feel free to continue, but getting back on topic can either of you explain to me why the most obvious solution to NADA was never proposed over on wog, and that's having the dealers update NADA with current selling prices? This is what I mean when I said that there's no discussion only violent agreement in an almost fanatical cheerleading way. I don't see any discussion. The reason could be Greg's explanation, but where's the discussion?
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - mpierce - 04-20-2015 08:54
(04-20-2015 08:39)davidbrady Wrote: I really appreciate Don's and Markus's input, and feel free to continue, but getting back on topic can either of you explain to me why the most obvious solution to NADA was never proposed over on wog, and that's having the dealers update NADA with current selling prices? This is what I mean when I said that there's no discussion only violent agreement in an almost fanatical cheerleading way. I don't see any discussion. The reason could be Greg's explanation, but where's the discussion?
I thought they did? My understanding from the discussion there is that the volume of BB's being sold by dealers is extremely small. Just like Newells and Prevosts, there just are not very many that change hands, especially thru dealers.
Then, couple that with the wide variance in condition due to various factors, and it becomes impossible for any service to say what the "average" price of a given year of BB is worth. I doubt that, in any given year, that even one model of each year of BB is sold thru a dealer? And that the most of a given year sold thru a dealer is probably just a few? With widely different options and conditions?
How do Newells and Prevosts do it?I think they hold value well, and I do not believe they are listed? Maybe I am wrong?
I have not seen any negative personal attacks on that site, like I have on this site. As a less than one year BB owner, I find it counterproductive for us to be taking pot shots at each other. We all need the support of each other. I have found the support available to me to be outstanding. I hope that continues, as I truly believe THAT is what will hold up the value of BB's over the long term. Much more so than any listing on NADA.
Knowing that, as a new or prospective owner of a pretty darn complex machine like a BB, I have the full support and technical knowledge of all the wonderful people here and on WOG. THAT is what will help me pay more for a BB. Otherwise, with NO factory support anymore, I would probably not bought my BB.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - markusfmeyer - 04-20-2015 08:58
Nice to get back on topic. Let's try to keep it productive now. I don't care about NADA nor any other book value to be honest. Anything is worth what someone is willing to pay as a buyer, or accept as a seller. That simple. So I don't give it much thought, life's too short to waste any negative energy on anything. Not sure I understand how your suggestion helps. Most are not selling via dealers.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-20-2015 10:35
I took a moment to read up on NADA. From the NADA Wiki page:
"Consumers are served by their NADA Guides which provide information about vehicle pricing for new, used, and classic automobiles in addition to motorcycles, boats, recreational vehicles, and manufactured homes."
I'd guess if NADA can provide data for a 1962 MGA they can also do so for a Wanderlodge. In Wanderlodge's heyday they built and sold maybe 50 coaches per year. I'd be willing to bet that BBBB and BirdConnection sell at least that quantity and they can certainly update NADA with selling prices. If NADA has a protocol/algorithm to handle the pricing variance of a 1962 MGA (my first car by the way
) then they can also handle the pricing variance of a Wanderlodge.If I take a moment it's not hard to put together a pricing picture for used wanderlodges. From BBBB, BirdConnection, and WanderlodgeTrader I gather the following:
M450: ave: $220K, hi: 265K, low 170K
M380: ave: $132k, hi: 135k, low 130k
2 slide LXi: ave: $173K, hi: 175K, lo: 160k
1 slide LXi: ave: $154k, hi: 180k, lo: 123k
no slide LXi: ave: $87k, hi: 118k, lo 77k
1 slide LX: ave: $140k, hi $140k, lo: $140k
no slide LX: ave: $99k, hi $100k, lo: $98k
1997 WB: ave $124k, hi $129k, lo: 119k
1990 thru 1996 Wide Bodies: ave: $58K, hi: $79k, lo: $42k
Single Pushers: ave: $41k, hi 52k, lo 30k
Pusher Tags: ave: $44k, hi: $75k, lo: $35k
Forward Controls: ave: $26k, hi $30k, lo: 20K
BMCs: ave $50K, hi: $50k, lo: $50K
Fifty-five buses in total. As you can see the prices are fairly well grouped. There's a few outliers but not many and they'd quickly filter out as more data is collected. Most folks will look at this and say, "yes, the averages are about correct". These numbers are easily represented in NADA's: average, hi, and low retail numbers. They've been doing it for decades for classic cars, there's no reason it can't be done for birds. It's not that complex; some groups of people want it to be complex, but it's not. All we need to do is lobby the brokers/dealers to funnel their data into NADA and everyone wins. The answer isn't to kill off NADA. There's a wealth of information there, there's free advertising, there's a portal for the common man into the world of birds, there's bank financing and insurance numbers, there's legacy and history there that we shouldn't give up too easily if we can manage. Now, Greg might be correct. Randy may simply be taking credit for something that NADA was going to do anyway, but I don't think so. Given the classic car resource that NADA is they certainly are demonstrating a willingness to hold on to all brands, current and defunct. This is the discussion that should have taken place before someone took it upon themselves to contact Parliament and call NADA; this is absolutely the cause of the anger you've seen, and I think justifiably so.
I don't want to trade barbs, I don't want to point fingers, and I'm glad you guys don't want to either. That's not what WaGu is about and it certainly doesn't continue in the philosophy of yahoo:groups:wanderlodgeForum as propagated by Ernie, Mike, Ralph, and Ron. Let's keep it civil and try to find a solution.
(more to come...)
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - mpierce - 04-20-2015 12:51
I do not know how NADA gets its numbers, or doesn't, in the case of BB's. Are the dealers refusing to send them the data? If so, why would they start in the future?
You went out, and got some numbers. I accept that they are reasonably accurate. If it so easy for you to do it, why does NADA NOT do that?
It is obvious that however NADA is doing it now, it is NOT accurate. You admit that for the newer coaches, their numbers are high by 20-25% or so, correct?
The older numbers are off by a factor or 4 or so. i.e., my 90 is listed at $14,000, when they bring 3-4 times as much.
I agree that if NADA would publish accurate numbers, that would be the best. I think we all agree that as of right now, the numbers are way off. I just do not see how we get NADA to publish accurate numbers, because as of now, they show zero desire to do so, or as your own figures show, it is not real hard to get close.
What incentive can we give to dealers and brokers to report ALL sales accurately? They are NOT now, or if they are, NADA is ignoring them. I think most of us agree accurate NADA data is preferable, but I do not see how we get to that point? It is easy to say that we get the dealers to report, and NADA to compile and report those numbers, but I do not see exactly HOW that is done?
Unless we get reasonably accurate numbers, then I, and it seems most BB owners, think it would be better to have no reporting, than wildly inaccurate values.
Thanks for allowing a newbie to opine. Great sites. Much better to talk it out about the ideas, than to name call, as was being done by some. Thanks.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - GregOConnor - 04-20-2015 13:40
Nada in the past sold a book full of reliable data. Now their sales are in advertising while visitors reiews the data. The draw to the nada site is still reliable and complete data. If they care offer to correct their data. Find the office worker who is holding th Ctrl and Alt button before they hit Delete. Or make a valuation document here.
I got a call from a dealer selling my bus. He said he isn't a hick, I asked him to listen to his voice mail message then call me back.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-20-2015 13:46
Hi Melvin,
I regretfully did use that awful word "dogooder". Hopefully Randy will accept my apologies.
Those are all great questions that you ask. I think I'll try to get on the phone with that NADA corporate secretary to see if I can gather up some answers.
Of course, the price ranges become more difficult as the granularity of model years becomes finer, but there are several solutions to this problem. One is to use the same price average and bracket for all model years in a model grouping such as I did. Another is to have a sliding window algorithm to scale down ave, hi, and lo values as the years are traversed, another is to collect more data for each and every model year. Any of these is preferable to what NADA is doing today. In favor of this is the wide ranges that NADA typically uses for the hi and lo retail brackets. Absolute accuracy isn't required. There are some buses that will always fall thru the cracks and will have to be handled on a case by case basis and that's show coaches and total wrecks! These can't possibly be represented in the NADA model. I think though these are the rare cases. Most buses need an average amount of work and are in average condition. Few of us have the time and ability to apply Rueckwald style touches to our buses. Let me see what I can dig up. Thanks!
(04-20-2015 13:40)GregOConnor Wrote: Nada in the past sold a book full of reliable data. Now their sales are in advertising while visitors reiews the data. The draw to the nada site is still reliable and complete data. If they care offer to correct their data. Find the office worker who is holding th Ctrl and Alt button before they hit Delete. Or make a valuation document here.
I got a call from a dealer selling my bus. He said he isn't a hick, I asked him to listen to his voice mail message then call me back.
I'm on it, if I can only find a telephone number...
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - DonB - 04-20-2015 14:03
(04-20-2015 10:35)davidbrady Wrote: I'd guess if NADA can provide data for a 1962 MGA they can also do so for a Wanderlodge.Of course, at least for the moment, they DO provide data for Wanderlodges. The problem is that the data is incorrect, and almost certainly based on a straight depreciation factor rather than actual knowledge.
I don't know if the MGA numbers are correct, do you? Obviously they are not based on depreciation, and I greatly doubt very many are sold by NADA member dealers (note those last three words - I'm not at all sure NADA would accept data from a non-member, non-dealer, broker).
That leads me to believe that NADA uses a different mechanism for classics, which it carries in a different category from "used." Either staff does comparisons, or they contract with a knowledgable auctioneer/appraiser. Perhaps at some point they will break out a classic RV category, although I suspect that is doubtful.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - rrueckwald - 04-20-2015 14:15
I have watched the online listings for seven years and caution anyone from using those asking prices as market prices. Bird Connection, for example, has always has very high prices, so many of those birds have been on there for several years. One in particular we looked at seven years ago. The owner knew the value from NADA and would not budge, even though he was way over the market. Over the years he has dropped his price from $170K to $70K, but always following the market down and staying way above it. It is still listed well over market. It was a nice bus. Think about his carrying costs and loss.
I'm trying to stay neutral on this issue as I don't really care either way. However, if you eliminate the emotion, the personalities, the special needs, look at only facts, and do a force field diagram on this issue, a picture does start to develop. One of the major heads-up facts I just heard is that Prevost and Newell do not have their units on NADA. Why?