+- Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum (http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com)
+-- Forum: Yahoo Groups Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=61)
+--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63)
+--- Thread: buyer beware (/showthread.php?tid=4822)
buyer beware - Leroy Eckert - 05-05-2007 03:50
A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving map display,
DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a large tent. It will fit
in most any campground. No need for a toad. Missing optional items include,
bed, hot and cold running water, in motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven,
bathroom and other important amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality
FC is a steal.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Hohnstein
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your price range. Go to
http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k asking price, it's on the
market for mid 30's and a real deal at that figure.
MH
----- Original Message -----
From: bubblerboy64
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was looking at
some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of what
is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that and
figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I would
be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But I
was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor yourself
I pretty well better forget it. JEH
>
> I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics. Blown
engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out to
be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air cooler
install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over to
24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real close
to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water system,
lighting, vents, etc.
> Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> Cold but true.
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> 83 FC 35rb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bubblerboy64
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
>
> And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be a
> completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
nothing. At
> a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
> Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
> pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
that's
> the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations and
> this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell for
the
> cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller when
> you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
paying
> for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice
coach
> like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly the
> price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is
the
> rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill Board
> right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in competition
with
> the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about
the
> older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed him
> see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to figure
to
> this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
some.
> But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
easily
> spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to
get
> it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point. If
> you have something worth the money do the work required to prove
it.
> I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older coach
but
> it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there of.
So
> I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking for
a
> fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea of
> fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
>
>
> >
> > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > >
> > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
> repairs will
> > > probably always be a little more healthy than for refurbished
> coaches.
> >
> > Kerry,
> >
> > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
rather
> > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> advertised
> > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and
seller
> > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium for
this
> > work.
> >
> > In my search, I found that people were tending to sell "average"
> > coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market
price".
> > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where folks
> > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to pay
> that.
> > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach with
a lot
> > of problems, either.
> >
> > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
nothing
> > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In my
> range I
> > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to
was
> > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value for
a
> > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work I
might
> > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get
$50k.
> On
> > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting $80k.
> >
> > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with
almost
> no
> > problems (few things here and there, but they all have those)
right
> > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me
that
> > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are
those
> > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
make it
> > half as nice as mine.
> >
> > So, there's my two cents worth.
> >
> > -Ryan
> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > Tri-Cities, WA
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-05-2007 06:39
Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my trailer up
on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and sell
the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I expect
to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded it
pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in me
and my "issues" John Heckman
>
>
> A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving map
display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a toad.
Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water, in
motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other important
amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Hohnstein
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
>
> Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your price
range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k
asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at that
figure.
> MH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bubblerboy64
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
> Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
looking at
> some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
what
> is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that
and
> figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
would
> be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But
I
> was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
> which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
> seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
yourself
> I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> >
> > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
Blown
> engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
to
> be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
cooler
> install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over
to
> 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
close
> to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
system,
> lighting, vents, etc.
> > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
> deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > Cold but true.
> > Mike Hohnstein
> > Germantown, WI
> > 83 FC 35rb
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bubblerboy64
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be
a
> > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> nothing. At
> > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
> > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
> > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> that's
> > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
and
> > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
for
> the
> > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
when
> > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> paying
> > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice
> coach
> > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
the
> > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is
> the
> > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
Board
> > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
competition
> with
> > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about
> the
> > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
him
> > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
figure
> to
> > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> some.
> > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> easily
> > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to
> get
> > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point.
If
> > you have something worth the money do the work required to
prove
> it.
> > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
coach
> but
> > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
of.
> So
> > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
for
> a
> > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea
of
> > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > >
> > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
> > repairs will
> > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
refurbished
> > coaches.
> > >
> > > Kerry,
> > >
> > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> rather
> > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > advertised
> > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and
> seller
> > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
for
> this
> > > work.
> > >
> > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
sell "average"
> > > coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market
> price".
> > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
folks
> > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
pay
> > that.
> > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
with
> a lot
> > > of problems, either.
> > >
> > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> nothing
> > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
my
> > range I
> > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to
> was
> > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
for
> a
> > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work
I
> might
> > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get
> $50k.
> > On
> > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
$80k.
> > >
> > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with
> almost
> > no
> > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have those)
> right
> > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me
> that
> > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are
> those
> > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> make it
> > > half as nice as mine.
> > >
> > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > >
> > > -Ryan
> > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
buyer beware - Leroy Eckert - 05-05-2007 07:13
Keeping the wife happy is priority 1. I have three step-kids on top of that so
I can be delusional at times.lol. I did purchase my coach to use rather than
restore. While I do work on it I would rather play. I have modified some
items, updated some things to make it different, but for the most part those
were elective. The coach was in fabulous shape when I purchased it and it's
doing fine.
I hope you can find something nice and enjoy it as we do, that way you can join
the party.
Everyone is here to help.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
On Panama City Beach
----- Original Message -----
From: bubblerboy64
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 1:39 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my trailer up
on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and sell
the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I expect
to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded it
pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in me
and my "issues" John Heckman
>
>
> A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving map
display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a toad.
Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water, in
motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other important
amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Hohnstein
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
>
> Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your price
range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k
asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at that
figure.
> MH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bubblerboy64
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
>
> Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
looking at
> some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
what
> is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about that
and
> figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
would
> be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But
I
> was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable BB
> which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best you've
> seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
yourself
> I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> >
> > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
Blown
> engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
to
> be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
cooler
> install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change over
to
> 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
close
> to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
system,
> lighting, vents, etc.
> > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the good
> deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > Cold but true.
> > Mike Hohnstein
> > Germantown, WI
> > 83 FC 35rb
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bubblerboy64
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would be
a
> > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> nothing. At
> > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely prospects.
> > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which have
> > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> that's
> > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
and
> > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
for
> the
> > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
when
> > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> paying
> > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a nice
> coach
> > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
the
> > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there is
> the
> > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
Board
> > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
competition
> with
> > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you about
> the
> > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
him
> > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
figure
> to
> > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> some.
> > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> easily
> > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K to
> get
> > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a point.
If
> > you have something worth the money do the work required to
prove
> it.
> > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
coach
> but
> > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
of.
> So
> > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
for
> a
> > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my idea
of
> > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > >
> > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some needed
> > repairs will
> > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
refurbished
> > coaches.
> > >
> > > Kerry,
> > >
> > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> rather
> > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > advertised
> > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer and
> seller
> > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
for
> this
> > > work.
> > >
> > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
sell "average"
> > > coaches in a certain price range - what I considered "market
> price".
> > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
folks
> > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
pay
> > that.
> > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
with
> a lot
> > > of problems, either.
> > >
> > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> nothing
> > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
my
> > range I
> > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came to
> was
> > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
for
> a
> > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major work
I
> might
> > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could get
> $50k.
> > On
> > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
$80k.
> > >
> > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach with
> almost
> > no
> > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have those)
> right
> > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells me
> that
> > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as are
> those
> > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> make it
> > > half as nice as mine.
> > >
> > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > >
> > > -Ryan
> > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
buyer beware - Gardner Yeaw - 05-05-2007 14:01
JEH,
I bought a '78FC33 for a low price and it will never be a
pristine perfect coach, but it runs great. I am fixing things as I
find them at my leasure. If you are handy you can do most things by
yourself and not incur big expenses. If you want to hire others to
do the work, get out your checkbook.
There are many good vintage Birds on the market, and new ones
show up pretty regular. You might ask why? Often it is because the
owners have aged out, or they just want to upgrade. If they remain
on the market for a very long time they are probably overpriced, or
in much worse shape than the advertisement states.
Keep looking. There are bargens out there for the well informed.
Complete service records are a good indicator of a well maintained
coach. There are, however, no garuntees.
Gardner
78FC33
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bluebirdsp36"
>
> JEH,
>
> Don't give up yet! Several years ago, I bought a nice 79 FC-33
from
> Bleakley in Atlanta for $20k. It had 120k miles and was in
beautiful
> shape. We took many trips with no problems over two years. We
spent
> about $10k on improvements and sold it for $32k. Bleakley was
asking
> $35k but I offered $20k and he took it. Offen times a dealer will
> wholesale one out if it sits too long on the lot. They usually
have
> very little invested in a trade-in that old.
>
> Paul Cunningham
> '90 SP-36
> Virginia
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
looking at
> > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do it.
> > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
what
> > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
that and
> > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
would
> > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10. But
I
> > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable
BB
> > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
you've
> > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
yourself
> > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
>
buyer beware - Gary Miller - 05-05-2007 18:35
Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. the 'deal'
of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires an
enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual work,
it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy workmanship
simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing in
workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a casual
observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult to
work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to deal
with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to changing
the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. I
planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, and
had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife and
boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, so I
cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur again,
and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 what I
had done when I was 38 on it.
I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for the
better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But the
major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot day
while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my vacation,
they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
part of a family vacation.
I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife and
kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and condos
together.
So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of mid
30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor, hundreds
of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact that I
have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
worth it.
The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule which
states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I bought
it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't be
getting used.
I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there are
always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find that I
rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say this
is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need money,
it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring me
to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to get
rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast, and
more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another direction.
I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on by.
I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that in
a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to take
her home.
Gary Miller
83 FC 33
Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my trailer
up
> on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and sell
> the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
expect
> to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded it
> pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in me
> and my "issues" John Heckman
> >
> >
> > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving
map
> display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
> large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
toad.
> Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water, in
> motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
important
> amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > Niceville, FL
> > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
price
> range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k
> asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at
that
> figure.
> > MH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bubblerboy64
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> looking at
> > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
it.
> > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
> what
> > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
that
> and
> > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> would
> > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
But
> I
> > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable
BB
> > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
you've
> > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> yourself
> > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > >
> > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> Blown
> > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
> to
> > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> cooler
> > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
over
> to
> > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> close
> > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> system,
> > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
good
> > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > Cold but true.
> > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > Germantown, WI
> > > 83 FC 35rb
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
be
> a
> > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > nothing. At
> > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
prospects.
> > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
have
> > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > that's
> > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
> and
> > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
> for
> > the
> > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
> when
> > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> > paying
> > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
nice
> > coach
> > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
> the
> > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
is
> > the
> > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> Board
> > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> competition
> > with
> > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
about
> > the
> > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
> him
> > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> figure
> > to
> > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> > some.
> > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> > easily
> > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K
to
> > get
> > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
point.
> If
> > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> prove
> > it.
> > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> coach
> > but
> > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
> of.
> > So
> > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
> for
> > a
> > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
idea
> of
> > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
needed
> > > repairs will
> > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> refurbished
> > > coaches.
> > > >
> > > > Kerry,
> > > >
> > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> > rather
> > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > > advertised
> > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
and
> > seller
> > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
> for
> > this
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> sell "average"
> > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
considered "market
> > price".
> > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
> folks
> > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
> pay
> > > that.
> > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> with
> > a lot
> > > > of problems, either.
> > > >
> > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> > nothing
> > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
> my
> > > range I
> > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came
to
> > was
> > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
> for
> > a
> > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
work
> I
> > might
> > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
get
> > $50k.
> > > On
> > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> $80k.
> > > >
> > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
with
> > almost
> > > no
> > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
those)
> > right
> > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells
me
> > that
> > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
are
> > those
> > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> > make it
> > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > >
> > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > >
> > > > -Ryan
> > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-05-2007 23:36
Gary, I did "check out" your BB on the Miller Couch site. It
certainly seems like a prospect. I'll talk to you off post. Thanks
again to all and keep the ears to the ground for anything you feel I
might be interested in. Gary's coach would be a reach for me but I
understand the concept of "value" as well as "price". The ducks are
wondering around the yard. Lets see if they will line up. JEH
>
> Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
>
> John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. the 'deal'
> of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
>
> What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires an
> enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
work,
> it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy workmanship
> simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing in
> workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a casual
> observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult to
> work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
deal
> with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
>
> What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
changing
> the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. I
> planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, and
> had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife and
> boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, so
I
> cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
again,
> and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 what
I
> had done when I was 38 on it.
>
> I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for the
> better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
the
> major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot day
> while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my vacation,
> they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> part of a family vacation.
>
> I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife and
> kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and condos
> together.
>
> So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of mid
> 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
hundreds
> of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact that
I
> have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> worth it.
>
> The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
which
> states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I bought
> it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
be
> getting used.
>
> I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
>
> I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
are
> always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find that
I
> rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
>
> If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
this
> is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need money,
> it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring me
> to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to get
> rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
and
> more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
direction.
>
> I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on by.
> I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
in
> a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to take
> her home.
>
> Gary Miller
> 83 FC 33
> Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
trailer
> up
> > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
sell
> > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> expect
> > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded
it
> > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
me
> > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > >
> > >
> > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving
> map
> > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
> > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> toad.
> > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water,
in
> > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> important
> > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
> > >
> > > Leroy Eckert
> > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > Niceville, FL
> > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> price
> > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
47k
> > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at
> that
> > figure.
> > > MH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > looking at
> > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
> it.
> > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
of
> > what
> > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
> that
> > and
> > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able
to
> > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> > would
> > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
> But
> > I
> > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
presentable
> BB
> > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> you've
> > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > yourself
> > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > >
> > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
have
> > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> > Blown
> > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
out
> > to
> > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > cooler
> > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
> over
> > to
> > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> > close
> > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
the
> > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > system,
> > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> good
> > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > Cold but true.
> > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
> be
> > a
> > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > nothing. At
> > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> prospects.
> > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
> have
> > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > > that's
> > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
restorations
> > and
> > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
sell
> > for
> > > the
> > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
seller
> > when
> > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
buyer
> > > paying
> > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> nice
> > > coach
> > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
exactly
> > the
> > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
> is
> > > the
> > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> > Board
> > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > competition
> > > with
> > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> about
> > > the
> > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
mailed
> > him
> > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> > figure
> > > to
> > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
plus
> > > some.
> > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
could
> > > easily
> > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
$15K
> to
> > > get
> > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> point.
> > If
> > > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> > prove
> > > it.
> > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> > coach
> > > but
> > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
there
> > of.
> > > So
> > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
looking
> > for
> > > a
> > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> idea
> > of
> > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> needed
> > > > repairs will
> > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > refurbished
> > > > coaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
would
> > > rather
> > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
was
> > > > advertised
> > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
> and
> > > seller
> > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
premium
> > for
> > > this
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > sell "average"
> > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> considered "market
> > > price".
> > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
where
> > folks
> > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going
to
> > pay
> > > > that.
> > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> > with
> > > a lot
> > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
with
> > > nothing
> > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more.
In
> > my
> > > > range I
> > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
came
> to
> > > was
> > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
value
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> work
> > I
> > > might
> > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
> get
> > > $50k.
> > > > On
> > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> > $80k.
> > > > >
> > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> with
> > > almost
> > > > no
> > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> those)
> > > right
> > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
> are
> > > those
> > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work
to
> > > make it
> > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
buyer beware - Gregory OConnor - 05-06-2007 02:55
Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person. I
wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the anxieties
in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express or
implied, as-is"
I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for
the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
confidence disortation with a disclosure.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptromolandCa
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
>
> Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
>
> John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. the 'deal'
> of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
>
> What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires an
> enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
work,
> it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy workmanship
> simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing in
> workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a casual
> observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult to
> work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
deal
> with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
>
> What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
changing
> the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. I
> planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, and
> had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife and
> boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, so
I
> cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
again,
> and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 what
I
> had done when I was 38 on it.
>
> I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for the
> better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
the
> major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot day
> while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my vacation,
> they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> part of a family vacation.
>
> I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife and
> kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and condos
> together.
>
> So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of mid
> 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
hundreds
> of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact that
I
> have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> worth it.
>
> The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
which
> states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I bought
> it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
be
> getting used.
>
> I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
>
> I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
are
> always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find that
I
> rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
>
> If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
this
> is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need money,
> it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring me
> to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to get
> rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
and
> more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
direction.
>
> I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on by.
> I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
in
> a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to take
> her home.
>
> Gary Miller
> 83 FC 33
> Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
trailer
> up
> > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
sell
> > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> expect
> > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded
it
> > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
me
> > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > >
> > >
> > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving
> map
> > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
> > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> toad.
> > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water,
in
> > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> important
> > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
> > >
> > > Leroy Eckert
> > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > Niceville, FL
> > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> price
> > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
47k
> > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at
> that
> > figure.
> > > MH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > looking at
> > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
> it.
> > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
of
> > what
> > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
> that
> > and
> > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able
to
> > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> > would
> > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
> But
> > I
> > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
presentable
> BB
> > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> you've
> > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > yourself
> > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > >
> > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
have
> > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> > Blown
> > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
out
> > to
> > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > cooler
> > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
> over
> > to
> > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> > close
> > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
the
> > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > system,
> > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> good
> > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > Cold but true.
> > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
> be
> > a
> > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > nothing. At
> > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> prospects.
> > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
> have
> > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > > that's
> > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
restorations
> > and
> > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
sell
> > for
> > > the
> > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
seller
> > when
> > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
buyer
> > > paying
> > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> nice
> > > coach
> > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
exactly
> > the
> > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
> is
> > > the
> > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> > Board
> > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > competition
> > > with
> > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> about
> > > the
> > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
mailed
> > him
> > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> > figure
> > > to
> > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
plus
> > > some.
> > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
could
> > > easily
> > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
$15K
> to
> > > get
> > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> point.
> > If
> > > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> > prove
> > > it.
> > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> > coach
> > > but
> > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
there
> > of.
> > > So
> > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
looking
> > for
> > > a
> > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> idea
> > of
> > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> needed
> > > > repairs will
> > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > refurbished
> > > > coaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
would
> > > rather
> > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
was
> > > > advertised
> > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
> and
> > > seller
> > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
premium
> > for
> > > this
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > sell "average"
> > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> considered "market
> > > price".
> > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
where
> > folks
> > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going
to
> > pay
> > > > that.
> > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> > with
> > > a lot
> > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
with
> > > nothing
> > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more.
In
> > my
> > > > range I
> > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
came
> to
> > > was
> > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
value
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> work
> > I
> > > might
> > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
> get
> > > $50k.
> > > > On
> > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> > $80k.
> > > > >
> > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> with
> > > almost
> > > > no
> > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> those)
> > > right
> > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
> are
> > > those
> > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work
to
> > > make it
> > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-06-2007 03:39
Gregory, Very interesting post! Point well taken. However, my
interpretation of this even as a buyer is a little different. I
would hope for full discloser and if I got that I would be happy
(wouldn't we all?). I would never expect a warranty of any type on a
vehicle of this type. If one was offered then I would assume this was
also "covered" by the price paid. I can see the seller hammered down
into the dirt by the buyer and then before the check is written being
ask for a 3 month 5K warranty. Well, it is all negotiable !! If I was
selling I'd never offer a warranty and I would never expect it as a
buyer. I'd rather get the BB for the best price and take me chance.
But again others may feel differently.
I understand your point however. Long hours of sales talk "bragging
up" the vehicle followed by the ubiquitous "no warranty expressed or
implied" Does take a bit of the wind out of the "sails" pitch. John
>
> Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person.
I
> wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
anxieties
> in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express
or
> implied, as-is"
>
> I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for
> the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
> years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
> confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptromolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
>
> >
> > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> >
> > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
the 'deal'
> > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> >
> > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires
an
> > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
> work,
> > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
workmanship
> > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing
in
> > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
casual
> > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult
to
> > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
> deal
> > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> >
> > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> changing
> > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore.
I
> > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least,
and
> > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife
and
> > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again,
so
> I
> > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
> again,
> > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50
what
> I
> > had done when I was 38 on it.
> >
> > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for
the
> > better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
> the
> > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot
day
> > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
vacation,
> > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> > part of a family vacation.
> >
> > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife
and
> > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and
condos
> > together.
> >
> > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of
mid
> > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> hundreds
> > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact
that
> I
> > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> > worth it.
> >
> > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
> which
> > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
bought
> > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
> be
> > getting used.
> >
> > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> >
> > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
> are
> > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find
that
> I
> > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> >
> > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
> this
> > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
money,
> > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring
me
> > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to
get
> > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
> and
> > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> direction.
> >
> > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on
by.
> > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
> in
> > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to
take
> > her home.
> >
> > Gary Miller
> > 83 FC 33
> > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> trailer
> > up
> > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
> sell
> > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> > expect
> > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
concluded
> it
> > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
> me
> > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS,
moving
> > map
> > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for
a
> > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> > toad.
> > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
water,
> in
> > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> > important
> > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
steal.
> > > >
> > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast
high92
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> > price
> > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
> 47k
> > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal
at
> > that
> > > figure.
> > > > MH
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > > looking at
> > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might
do
> > it.
> > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
> of
> > > what
> > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
about
> > that
> > > and
> > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
able
> to
> > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what
I
> > > would
> > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of
10.
> > But
> > > I
> > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> presentable
> > BB
> > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> > you've
> > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > > yourself
> > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
> have
> > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
pics.
> > > Blown
> > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
> out
> > > to
> > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > > cooler
> > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
change
> > over
> > > to
> > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting
real
> > > close
> > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
> the
> > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > > system,
> > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> > good
> > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > > nothing. At
> > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > prospects.
> > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
which
> > have
> > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers.
See
> > > > that's
> > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> restorations
> > > and
> > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
> sell
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> seller
> > > when
> > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
> buyer
> > > > paying
> > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> > nice
> > > > coach
> > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> exactly
> > > the
> > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
there
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the
Bill
> > > Board
> > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > competition
> > > > with
> > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> mailed
> > > him
> > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able
to
> > > figure
> > > > to
> > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
> plus
> > > > some.
> > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
> could
> > > > easily
> > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
> $15K
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> > point.
> > > If
> > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required
to
> > > prove
> > > > it.
> > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
older
> > > coach
> > > > but
> > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
> there
> > > of.
> > > > So
> > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> looking
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> > idea
> > > of
> > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> > needed
> > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > refurbished
> > > > > coaches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
> would
> > > > rather
> > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
> was
> > > > > advertised
> > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
buyer
> > and
> > > > seller
> > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> premium
> > > for
> > > > this
> > > > > > work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > sell "average"
> > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > considered "market
> > > > price".
> > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
> where
> > > folks
> > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
going
> to
> > > pay
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
coach
> > > with
> > > > a lot
> > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
> with
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
more.
> In
> > > my
> > > > > range I
> > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
> came
> > to
> > > > was
> > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
> value
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> > work
> > > I
> > > > might
> > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
could
> > get
> > > > $50k.
> > > > > On
> > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
wanting
> > > $80k.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> > with
> > > > almost
> > > > > no
> > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> > those)
> > > > right
> > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
> tells
> > me
> > > > that
> > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high,
as
> > are
> > > > those
> > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
work
> to
> > > > make it
> > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
buyer beware - Robert Britton - 05-06-2007 03:47
> I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast, and
> more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another direction.
>
> >
> Gary Miller
> 83 FC 33
> Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
MAN DOWN, WE'VE GOT A MAN DOWN!
Been there, done that Gary.
You'll go off and have your fun with your family doing other things but
you'll miss the Wanderlodge and it's life style to much, it's in your
blood, you'll be back..... I give it about four or five years!
Good luck on your new adventures!
Robert Britton
87FC
Hollister, California
buyer beware - Gary Miller - 05-06-2007 04:19
While offering a warranty would be nice, I'm not a business entity.
My coach speaks for itself in quality and I don't feel it needs a
warranty to nudge a buyer in the direction of making the purchase.
I'm not a professional mechanic, just an enthusaist with time on my
hands. There is no warranty.
Besides, it's easy to drive these rigs the wrong way and knowing that
someone will cover the first major mess-up could be inviting a
problem instead of preventing one. Kind of like when the DOT and
NTSB studies in the 90's found that people were tending to drive more
recklessly in vehicles equipped with airbags because they
felt 'safer' behind the wheel, thus negating the actual safety
mechanism of an airbag (and anti-lock brakes, skid control, etc...).
Don't ask me to source these studies, it's been too long.
For example, a turbo FC with the standard 4.89 rear end should never
be driven above 65 mph. It'll be over revving the engine. It'll go
there, quite easily. Many people confuse the governor with a rev-
limiter and simply mat the pedal and point the coach down the road.
It only takes one valve spring to stretch past it's limit and the CAT
will eat a valve. Seen it. These old speedometers and tachometers
require adjustments for accuracy, I've seen that mistake too. Ever
notice how many Wanderlodges are NOT on their original engine? One
must take care of their Wanderlodge, it's not smart enough to take
care of itself.
Can anyone tell me the limitations on use of the Jacobs retarder in
the 3rd and 4th positions? How 'bout the cool down time? Any takers
on the max speed and a good technique to manually downshift the
Allison while climbing a hill to prevent lugging (4.89 rear end)?
How 'bout for downshifting to help slow a steep descent and stay out
of the 3rd and 4th position on the retarder for extended periods
(that's a hint for the first question, it's stated as 'short periods
of time'
? So what's the maximum oil usage of the CAT? Along thatline, about how long does it take before the oil dipstick will show
an accurate reading? There's a lot of oil in there. Off the top of
your head, how do you check the transmission fluid level, engine
running or shut down, hot or cold? Here's an essay question, what
can you do if you're climbing a steep grade on a stunningly beautiful
narrow winding road, on a hot day and the engine alarm starts buzzing
with the light on, you guess that you're 3/4 the way to the top (a
few miles to go) you take your eyes off the scenery, scan the gauges,
and see there's an overheat occurring (oh, and there's a logging
truck and three cars behind you with no shoulder)? Extra credit,
what temp is actually considered an overheat for the CAT? Extra,
extra credit, what temp did the alarm come on?
Nope, I'm not going to warranty a $200,000+ coach that I'm selling
for under $40,000. If I was comfortable letting folks drive off with
this beast while financially covering their learning curve, I'd start
renting them out.
Come to my home and spend some time with it and the documentation I
offer combined with the touch and feel of quality workmanship, the
depth of knowledge I posess, and the enjoyment I have, and the normal
anxieties will fade. Drive it down the road and the big grin you
find yourself with after a few minutes melts away the concerns. I've
seen it. I've already had visitors just 'looking'.
Keep in mind that at $38,500 this is by no means a new Wanderlodge.
There are always things to work on and maintenance to be done. I'll
go over all that in person with any potential buyer, and thus will
begin the negotiations. I'll also let you stay as long as you like
to learn about it, and answer any questions you have while owning
it. I'll pit my Blue Box against anyone else's as far as depth of
information available on this coach. So there's your warranty,
arguably better than an actual monetary contract, I'd say, because
we'll work together to insure you're comfortable with this coach, and
you can make the call.
Gary Miller
83 FC 33 - For Sale
Milwaukee area
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
>
> Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person.
I
> wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
anxieties
> in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express
or
> implied, as-is"
>
> I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for
> the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
> years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
> confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptromolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
>
> >
> > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> >
> > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
the 'deal'
> > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> >
> > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires
an
> > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
> work,
> > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
workmanship
> > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing
in
> > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
casual
> > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult
to
> > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
> deal
> > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> >
> > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> changing
> > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore.
I
> > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least,
and
> > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife
and
> > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again,
so
> I
> > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
> again,
> > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50
what
> I
> > had done when I was 38 on it.
> >
> > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for
the
> > better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
> the
> > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot
day
> > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
vacation,
> > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> > part of a family vacation.
> >
> > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife
and
> > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and
condos
> > together.
> >
> > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of
mid
> > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> hundreds
> > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact
that
> I
> > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> > worth it.
> >
> > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
> which
> > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
bought
> > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
> be
> > getting used.
> >
> > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> >
> > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
> are
> > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find
that
> I
> > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> >
> > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
> this
> > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
money,
> > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring
me
> > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to
get
> > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
> and
> > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> direction.
> >
> > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on
by.
> > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
> in
> > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to
take
> > her home.
> >
> > Gary Miller
> > 83 FC 33
> > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> trailer
> > up
> > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
> sell
> > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> > expect
> > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
concluded
> it
> > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
> me
> > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS,
moving
> > map
> > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for
a
> > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> > toad.
> > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
water,
> in
> > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> > important
> > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
steal.
> > > >
> > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast
high92
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> > price
> > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
> 47k
> > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal
at
> > that
> > > figure.
> > > > MH
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > > looking at
> > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might
do
> > it.
> > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
> of
> > > what
> > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
about
> > that
> > > and
> > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
able
> to
> > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what
I
> > > would
> > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of
10.
> > But
> > > I
> > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> presentable
> > BB
> > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> > you've
> > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > > yourself
> > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
> have
> > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
pics.
> > > Blown
> > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
> out
> > > to
> > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > > cooler
> > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
change
> > over
> > > to
> > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting
real
> > > close
> > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
> the
> > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > > system,
> > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> > good
> > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > > nothing. At
> > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > prospects.
> > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
which
> > have
> > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers.
See
> > > > that's
> > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> restorations
> > > and
> > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
> sell
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> seller
> > > when
> > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
> buyer
> > > > paying
> > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> > nice
> > > > coach
> > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> exactly
> > > the
> > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
there
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the
Bill
> > > Board
> > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > competition
> > > > with
> > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> mailed
> > > him
> > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able
to
> > > figure
> > > > to
> > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
> plus
> > > > some.
> > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
> could
> > > > easily
> > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
> $15K
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> > point.
> > > If
> > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required
to
> > > prove
> > > > it.
> > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
older
> > > coach
> > > > but
> > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
> there
> > > of.
> > > > So
> > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> looking
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> > idea
> > > of
> > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> > needed
> > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > refurbished
> > > > > coaches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
> would
> > > > rather
> > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
> was
> > > > > advertised
> > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
buyer
> > and
> > > > seller
> > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> premium
> > > for
> > > > this
> > > > > > work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > sell "average"
> > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > considered "market
> > > > price".
> > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
> where
> > > folks
> > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
going
> to
> > > pay
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
coach
> > > with
> > > > a lot
> > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
> with
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
more.
> In
> > > my
> > > > > range I
> > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
> came
> > to
> > > > was
> > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
> value
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> > work
> > > I
> > > > might
> > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
could
> > get
> > > > $50k.
> > > > > On
> > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
wanting
> > > $80k.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> > with
> > > > almost
> > > > > no
> > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> > those)
> > > > right
> > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
> tells
> > me
> > > > that
> > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high,
as
> > are
> > > > those
> > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
work
> to
> > > > make it
> > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>