![]() |
Fuel economy - Printable Version +- Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum (http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com) +-- Forum: Yahoo Groups Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=61) +--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63) +--- Thread: Fuel economy (/showthread.php?tid=5958) |
Fuel economy - Ryan Wright - 11-10-2007 10:00 On 11/10/07, Pete Masterson > > Converting the power generated by the magnetic retarder into > batteries would be an interesting engineering challenge. The amount > of current made can be quite significant for short periods of time -- > handling it might prove difficult (expensive). Hybrid automobile battery packs are expensive for a reason: These aren't your off-the-shelf rechargeable batteries. They're designed for rapid charge/discharge cycles and that drives the cost up significantly. I can't imagine the size of the battery bank and controllers that would go into capturing the energy needed to stop a 20 ton rig. It would be hideously expensive. All that being said I'll bet there are other options one could explore. A massive flywheel, for instance, could potentially be used, but that has it's own set of complications and drawbacks and may well wind up being more expensive than batteries. If we're asking, "Is it possible?", the answer is unequivocally yes. However, cost effectiveness is another question all together. -Ryan '86 PT-40 8V92 Fuel economy - Stephen Birtles - 11-10-2007 12:31 hey the price of fuel in the US is catching up to us oops it just passed us we pay 94.6 per liter which unadjusted is 3.57CDN then you factor in the exchange an American dollar currently is approx 94 cents CDN the only problem with dynamics is when the guy you relive does not tell you they are not working makes life exciting at a red light Stephen 77fc35 Dupreeproducts.com home of Treatzall holding tank Deodorant --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" > > On 11/10/07, Pete Masterson > > > > Converting the power generated by the magnetic retarder into > > batteries would be an interesting engineering challenge. The amount > > of current made can be quite significant for short periods of time -- > > handling it might prove difficult (expensive). > > Hybrid automobile battery packs are expensive for a reason: These > aren't your off-the-shelf rechargeable batteries. They're designed for > rapid charge/discharge cycles and that drives the cost up > significantly. I can't imagine the size of the battery bank and > controllers that would go into capturing the energy needed to stop a > 20 ton rig. It would be hideously expensive. > > All that being said I'll bet there are other options one could > explore. A massive flywheel, for instance, could potentially be used, > but that has it's own set of complications and drawbacks and may well > wind up being more expensive than batteries. > > If we're asking, "Is it possible?", the answer is unequivocally yes. > However, cost effectiveness is another question all together. > > -Ryan > '86 PT-40 8V92 > Fuel economy - Al - 11-10-2007 12:32 Ryan, With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel lines in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, it will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower the tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray foam on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the tank did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower and then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we could probably do one in a day. Al Johnson '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 Mandeville, Louisiana --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" > > Jon, > > On 11/9/07, Jon > > > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for the guys > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel prices up > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably going up > > further as I type. > > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting ridiculous. > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am going > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under $1.00 a > gallon from now on. > > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was 4.13mpg. > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator running > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed down to > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and am > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not half > bad. > > -Ryan > '86 PT-40 8V92 > Fuel economy - Gardner Yeaw - 11-10-2007 14:24 With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = $12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And that's just the first year of retirement. Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! Gardner 78FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" > > Ryan, > With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel lines > in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel > will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail > overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, it > will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in > mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of > advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower the > tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray foam > on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the tank > did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower and > then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we > could probably do one in a day. > > Al Johnson > '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 > Mandeville, Louisiana > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" > > > > > Jon, > > > > On 11/9/07, Jon > > > > > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for the > guys > > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel prices up > > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably going > up > > > further as I type. > > > > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting ridiculous. > > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am going > > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under > $1.00 a > > gallon from now on. > > > > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was > 4.13mpg. > > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator > running > > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed down > to > > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and am > > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not half > > bad. > > > > -Ryan > > '86 PT-40 8V92 > > > Fuel economy - Al - 11-10-2007 14:45 Gardner, I get 8 mpg in my BMC 37 pulling a Ford Explorer. I like to run her around 62 mph so I don't work her too hard :O> Al Johnson '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 Mandeville, Louisiana --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gardner Yeaw" wrote: > > With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to > reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets > between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are > thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after > retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach > will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed > conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a > half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = > $12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And > that's just the first year of retirement. > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and > collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? > Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel > exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to > run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw > another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! > > Gardner > 78FC33 > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" > > > > Ryan, > > With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel > lines > > in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel > > will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail > > overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, > it > > will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in > > mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of > > advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower > the > > tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray > foam > > on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the > tank > > did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower > and > > then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we > > could probably do one in a day. > > > > Al Johnson > > '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 > > Mandeville, Louisiana > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" > > > > > > > > Jon, > > > > > > On 11/9/07, Jon > > > > > > > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for > the > > guys > > > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel > prices up > > > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably > going > > up > > > > further as I type. > > > > > > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting > ridiculous. > > > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am > going > > > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under > > $1.00 a > > > gallon from now on. > > > > > > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was > > 4.13mpg. > > > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator > > running > > > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed > down > > to > > > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and > am > > > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > > > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not > half > > > bad. > > > > > > -Ryan > > > '86 PT-40 8V92 > > > > > > Fuel economy - Larry Dill - 11-10-2007 15:40 Gardner, Yea, then we would need a fireman and a stoker!!! Sea Ya Larry NYC 84 35FCSB ----- Original Message ---- From: Gardner Yeaw To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 6:45:46 PM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Fuel economy I wonder if we could retrofit a steam engine into one of the old pushers. Then we might be able to run on wood! Gardner 78FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon" > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "bingomaster05" > > > > > Reading the recent posts on bio fuel, made me wonder what kind of > fuel > > mileage the various unit get. Do the FC's with the Cat do better > than > > the 6V or 8V Detroits? Do pushers do better than the FC's? What > about > > Toads..how much does it affect MPG. I would imagine that with > Bluebirds > > being so heavy, the higher power engines might actually be more > > efficent. With the ever rising fuel costs, you have to wonder how > it > > will affect the future of RVing in general. Thanks in advance. > > > > Dan Thomas > > Wannabe > > Central PA > > > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for the guys > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel prices up > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably going up > further as I type. > > My coach get an honest 10 mpg and that because I have a lighter coach > than most people here and I try to keep my speed down to gain that > mileage. I have been thinking about installing higher gears to gain > another another mile or so on my fuel but is it worth it? I don't > know? > > I think the RV industry will survive but I think you will see people > going back in smaller coaches that are light and efficient. With > today's technology I would think that they could manufacture RV's > that get much better mileage than we get in our units and still have > the comfort of a plush RV. > > > > Jon > Rebel Bird > Bremerton > <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} .MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} .replbq{margin:4;} --> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Fuel economy - Don Bradner - 11-10-2007 15:48 I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know anything about your personal retirement financial situation. But... I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following national averages for diesel: 2000 $1.49 2001 $1.40 2002 $1.32 2003 $1.51 2004 $1.81 2005 $2.40 2006 $2.71 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30) So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe. Will it? Odds and history say no. Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I arrived home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80 gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon. I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average) in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy a contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71, respectively. At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it is not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect to be in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel does not put me past the breaking point. Don Bradner 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" Eureka, CA On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote: >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And >that's just the first year of retirement. > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! > >Gardner >78FC33 > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" >> >> Ryan, >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel >lines >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, >it >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower >the >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray >foam >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the >tank >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower >and >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we >> could probably do one in a day. >> >> Al Johnson >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 >> Mandeville, Louisiana >> >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" >> >> > >> > Jon, >> > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon >> > > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for >the >> guys >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel >prices up >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably >going >> up >> > > further as I type. >> > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting >ridiculous. >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am >going >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under >> $1.00 a >> > gallon from now on. >> > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was >> 4.13mpg. >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator >> running >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed >down >> to >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and >am >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not >half >> > bad. >> > >> > -Ryan >> > '86 PT-40 8V92 >> > >> > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Fuel economy - Gardner Yeaw - 11-10-2007 16:13 Don, I am far from an expert in the reasons for the cost of fuel. I believe the curent rise is the result more of Wall street speculation than real supply/demand situation. Still, with the growing need in foreign countries like China and the inherent instability of the Mid-East/USA relationship it is not unreasonable to expect the prices to be based on a more volital global situation. That crap aside, I have been pretty careful about maintaining a life style that allowed me to save for retirement and get my three kids through the unreasonable cost of a college education. The thing about retirement saveings is that you need to meter it out at a rate that doesn't ignore the reality that there will be varying returns during your 'golden' years. Although I have included a reasonable inflation rate in my long term plans, I just hate to think that my early, healthy years expenses will be a subject of regret later on. Oh, the heck with it, a park bench ain't such a bad place to sleep after all. And the way my memory is going, it will only seem last one nignt anyway. Gardner 78FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner" > > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means over- estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know anything about your personal retirement financial situation. But... > > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following national averages for diesel: > > 2000 $1.49 > 2001 $1.40 > 2002 $1.32 > 2003 $1.51 > 2004 $1.81 > 2005 $2.40 > 2006 $2.71 > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30) > > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe. Will it? Odds and history say no. > > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I arrived home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80 gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon. > > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average) in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy a contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71, respectively. > > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it is not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect to be in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel does not put me past the breaking point. > > Don Bradner > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" > Eureka, CA > > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote: > > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And > >that's just the first year of retirement. > > > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! > > > >Gardner > >78FC33 > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" > >> > >> Ryan, > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel > >lines > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, > >it > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower > >the > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray > >foam > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the > >tank > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower > >and > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we > >> could probably do one in a day. > >> > >> Al Johnson > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 > >> Mandeville, Louisiana > >> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright" > >> > >> > > >> > Jon, > >> > > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon > >> > > > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for > >the > >> guys > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel > >prices up > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably > >going > >> up > >> > > further as I type. > >> > > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting > >ridiculous. > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am > >going > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under > >> $1.00 a > >> > gallon from now on. > >> > > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was > >> 4.13mpg. > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator > >> running > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed > >down > >> to > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and > >am > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not > >half > >> > bad. > >> > > >> > -Ryan > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92 > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Fuel economy - David Brady - 11-10-2007 16:22 Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership. For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of .50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my $40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed costs. David Brady '02 LXi, NC Don Bradner wrote: > > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means > over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know > anything about your personal retirement financial situation. But... > > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that > conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following national > averages for diesel: > > 2000 $1.49 > 2001 $1.40 > 2002 $1.32 > 2003 $1.51 > 2004 $1.81 > 2005 $2.40 > 2006 $2.71 > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30) > > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more > per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe. > Will it? Odds and history say no. > > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or > more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero > need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of > those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I arrived > home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and > shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80 > gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon. > > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average) > in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed > while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in > October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy a > contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71, > respectively. > > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end > of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving > from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is > likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it is > not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently > expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect to be > in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the > country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel > does not put me past the breaking point. > > Don Bradner > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" > Eureka, CA > > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote: > > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And > >that's just the first year of retirement. > > > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! > > > >Gardner > >78FC33 > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > >> > >> Ryan, > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel > >lines > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, > >it > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower > >the > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray > >foam > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the > >tank > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower > >and > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we > >> could probably do one in a day. > >> > >> Al Johnson > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 > >> Mandeville, Louisiana > >> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > >> > >> > > >> > Jon, > >> > > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon > >> > > > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for > >the > >> guys > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel > >prices up > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably > >going > >> up > >> > > further as I type. > >> > > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting > >ridiculous. > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am > >going > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under > >> $1.00 a > >> > gallon from now on. > >> > > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was > >> 4.13mpg. > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator > >> running > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed > >down > >> to > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and > >am > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not > >half > >> > bad. > >> > > >> > -Ryan > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92 > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/message/29036;_ylc=X3oDMTM3cHJqM\ W5kBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRtc2dJZAMyOTA3O\ QRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTkEdHBjSWQDMjkwMzY-> > (0) Reply (via web post) > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJybWt0ZXUwBF9TAz\ k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRtc2dJZAMyOTA3OQRzZWMDZn\ RyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-?act=reply&messageNum=29079> > | Start a new topic > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbGk1NHNkBF9TAz\ k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBH\ N0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > Messages > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTQzb244BF\ 9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2\ dzBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > | Files > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnZnJjaWRqBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlc\ wRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > | Photos > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNm9naTh1BF9T\ Azk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90\ BHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > | Links > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnczA2N25xBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rc\ wRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > | Database > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzNrNjFnBF\ 9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYg\ RzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > | Polls > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnM2p1OWUzBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xsc\ wRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > Yahoo! Groups > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMzY4NGRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1N\ TE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > > Change settings via the Web > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnajF1ZzdrBF9TAz\ k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncw\ RzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest > > | Switch format to Traditional > > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXNrZmo3BF9TAzk3MzU\ 5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWU\ DMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> | > Unsubscribe > > Recent Activity > > * > 9 > New Members > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJndWlvNDh0BF9\ TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJ\ ycwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > * > 2 > New Photos > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmNpNGlnBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2cGhvd\ ARzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > * > 1 > New Links > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJoc29yNXU4BF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bGlua\ 3MEc3RpbWUDMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdmlzdWYwBF9TAzk3MzU\ 5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1\ lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > Health Zone > > Look your best! > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12je914vq/M=493064.10729671.11699924.9977693/D=grou\ ps/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4430620/R=0/SIG=11fhbjsi1/*http://pr\ omotions.yahoo.com/healthandfitness/> > > Groups to help you > > look & feel great. > > Yahoo! Finance > > It's Now Personal > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jt72vn9/M=493064.10729649.11333340.8674578/D=grou\ ps/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http://us\ .rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance> > > Guides, news, > > advice & more. > > Endurance Zone > > A Yahoo! Group > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jqmii6i/M=493064.11135487.11710473.8674578/D=grou\ ps/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4834088/R=0/SIG=11ikjqbtm/*http://sp\ orts.groups.yahoo.com/group/accelerade/> > > Learn how to > > increase endurance. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Fuel economy - Gardner Yeaw - 11-10-2007 16:27 David, I agree that with a 2002 coach you are still eating the depreciation at a high rate, but I am looking at mid 80's coaches where the depreciation is far less. 20k for storage and maintenance is a pretty big number. I pay about $800 for storage and maybe 1 or 2k for maintenance. I can do most things myself. Actually I thought the steam engine would elicit more of a reaction. Gardner 78FC33 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady wrote: > > Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership. > For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K > per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K > for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of > .50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my > $40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only > shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed > costs. > > > David Brady > '02 LXi, NC > > Don Bradner wrote: > > > > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means > > over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know > > anything about your personal retirement financial situation. But... > > > > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that > > conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following national > > averages for diesel: > > > > 2000 $1.49 > > 2001 $1.40 > > 2002 $1.32 > > 2003 $1.51 > > 2004 $1.81 > > 2005 $2.40 > > 2006 $2.71 > > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30) > > > > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more > > per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe. > > Will it? Odds and history say no. > > > > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or > > more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero > > need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of > > those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I arrived > > home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and > > shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80 > > gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon. > > > > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average) > > in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed > > while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in > > October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy a > > contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71, > > respectively. > > > > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end > > of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving > > from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is > > likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it is > > not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently > > expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect to be > > in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the > > country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel > > does not put me past the breaking point. > > > > Don Bradner > > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" > > Eureka, CA > > > > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote: > > > > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to > > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets > > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are > > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after > > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach > > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed > > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a > > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles = > > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And > > >that's just the first year of retirement. > > > > > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and > > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way???? > > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel > > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to > > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw > > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one! > > > > > >Gardner > > >78FC33 > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> > > >> Ryan, > > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel > > >lines > > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel > > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail > > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, > > >it > > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in > > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of > > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower > > >the > > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray > > >foam > > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the > > >tank > > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower > > >and > > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we > > >> could probably do one in a day. > > >> > > >> Al Johnson > > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100 > > >> Mandeville, Louisiana > > >> > > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Jon, > > >> > > > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon > > >> > > > > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for > > >the > > >> guys > > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel > > >prices up > > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably > > >going > > >> up > > >> > > further as I type. > > >> > > > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting > > >ridiculous. > > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am > > >going > > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under > > >> $1.00 a > > >> > gallon from now on. > > >> > > > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was > > >> 4.13mpg. > > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator > > >> running > > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed > > >down > > >> to > > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and > > >am > > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg. > > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not > > >half > > >> > bad. > > >> > > > >> > -Ryan > > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92 > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/message/29036;_ylc=X3 oDMTM3cHJqMW5kBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTE yNjE4NQRtc2dJZAMyOTA3OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTkE dHBjSWQDMjkwMzY-> > > (0) Reply (via web post) > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJybWt 0ZXUwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRt c2dJZAMyOTA3OQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-? act=reply&messageNum=29079> > > | Start a new topic > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbGk 1NHNkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRz ZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > > > Messages > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJ mNTQzb244BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4 NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > | Files > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnZn JjaWRqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQR zZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > | Photos > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN m9naTh1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQ RzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > | Links > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJncz A2N25xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQR zZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > | Database > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJ kYzNrNjFnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4 NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > | Polls > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnM2 p1OWUzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQR zZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > > > Yahoo! Groups > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMzY4NGRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycE lkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWU DMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > > > > Change settings via the Web > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnajF 1ZzdrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRz ZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > (Yahoo! ID required) > > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest > > > > | Switch format to Traditional > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXNrZmo3 BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDZ nRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > > | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> | > > Unsubscribe > > > > Recent Activity > > > > * > > 9 > > New Members > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJn dWlvNDh0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4N QRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > * > > 2 > > New Photos > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYm NpNGlnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQR zZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2cGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTk0NzUyODk5> > > * > > 1 > > New Links > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJoc2 9yNXU4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQR zZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE5NDc1Mjg5OQ--> > > > > Visit Your Group > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdmlzdWYw BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0ODE1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjE4NQRzZWMDd nRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ3NTI4OTk-> > > > > Health Zone > > > > Look your best! > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12je914vq/M=493064.10729671.11699924.997 7693/D=groups/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4430620/R=0/SI G=11fhbjsi1/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/healthandfitness/> > > > > Groups to help you > > > > look & feel great. > > > > Yahoo! Finance > > > > It's Now Personal > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jt72vn9/M=493064.10729649.11333340.867 4578/D=groups/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4507179/R=0/SI G=12de4rskk/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.c om/personal-finance> > > > > Guides, news, > > > > advice & more. > > > > Endurance Zone > > > > A Yahoo! Group > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jqmii6i/M=493064.11135487.11710473.867 4578/D=groups/S=1705126185:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1194760100/A=4834088/R=0/SI G=11ikjqbtm/*http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/accelerade/> > > > > Learn how to > > > > increase endurance. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |