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+--- Thread: Filter Minders for Dummies (/showthread.php?tid=180)
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - Itchintogo - 03-27-2013 19:25
(03-27-2013 10:17)pgchin Wrote: [quote='al perna' pid='1174' dateline='1364353056']
Hey Al,
I know of others that do not have an FM issue. It is NOT that prevalent to have issues. Some are 8v's or 500hp s60's DDEC IV, remember mine is a 475 DDEC III.....not sure what the differences are but David B and I once counted 150TSL's between his year and mine when the DD site was open to mere mortals. The only other 475HP I know of having issues is Kurt H's and he runs a stainless exhaust with a straight pipe so I'm not surprised. I learned a long time ago from some professional tuners that engines are nothing more than big air pumps, you can port'em, polish intakes, mess with jets or ECM's, chip'em, flow the heads,etc but it always boils down to one thing, the factory setup is designed to work in a "multitude of temps, altitudes, atmospherics, and use case scenarios. And the drive train it has. Every time you "touch" one of the parameters like intake, exhaust, etc you mess up another parameter in the factory use case. Air flows better in the area you touch, but NOT in the other areas.
else we can do scientifically, that info would be data FACTS and we could then react to it. By the way, if they had found issues, then they would have made a hand written change to the inlet / exhaust prints for the line. As I already stated, no EC's on my prints on my 95 so 90-95 shows NO air inlet issues. I have both 8v and s60 inlet / exhaust prints in my factory deck.
You nailed it Pete. A few things in life I have learned are:
1. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
2. You can't get something for nothing on an internal combustion engine.
3. For every action there is a reaction.
4. Too much scotch or bourbon and you will make poor choices! Hahaha!
Cue the ukuleles!
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - al perna - 03-28-2013 10:18
Reminds me of the words to a old song " and the beat goes on "
so lets say we make a filter change , bring air into the turbo , more directly .
what part of the system is now effected in a Negative manor ?
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - davidbrady - 03-28-2013 10:51
(03-28-2013 10:18)al perna Wrote: what part of the system is now effected in a Negative manor ?
Your wallet Al! LOL
Seriously, in this case, the effect of shaving a few inches of water off will be so slight that our ECM's can easily compensate.
The stock system on our LXi's is free flowing with little pressure drop, and that pressure drop is easily within the DD 500 HP Series-60 specifications of 12 inches of water for a clean filter.
Certainly, you can spend money to shave a few inches of water off, but the efficiency improvement will be marginal, less than 1%, and it may not exist at all depending upon the flow rates of the new filter, the design of the new intake duct work, diffuser, and plenum, and the location from where it draws air. Also make sure that the "free flowing" nature holds up to miles driven. If the filter is mounted down low in the plume of road debris and moisture kicked up by our tires it may rapidly clog.
Before spending my money on something that's alleged to improve efficiency over our stock system I'd want to see third party real world testing, and certainly anyone selling a system would have that kind of data on hand. Grandstanding doesn't cut it for me.
If there is indeed an efficiency improvement, then do your calculation to see where the efficiency gain starts making you money. It doesn't make good sense to me to spend $500 on something that requires 100,000 miles of driving to break even. Few of us will ever put those kind of miles on our coaches; more than likely we'll move on to something else before then. If the seller is promising a 1 MPG improvement, run away fast!
At the very least, take a few minutes and call the filter manufacturer and get restriction specs at a flow rate of 1170 CFM for whatever filter you decide to go with. Compare these numbers to the ECO-SM numbers I published in a previous post. You may be surprised at what you find.
IOWs, I recommend doing some leg-work on whatever new design someone is hawking before committing.
Al, in this thread I've tried to present the data as unemotionally and as objectively as possible. I started by questioning the instrumentation (the Filter Minder), I provided some rationale for why it could be misleading, I questioned the FM's accuracy, resolution, response, mounting location, and the conditions in the engine compartment; I then looked at our stock intake system, I gave rationale for why I thought it's performance is within spec; I then presented pipe flow calculations for our intake duct work along with Racor-Parker restriction specs on our ECO-SM air filters, and Detroit Diesel specifications for clean and dirty air filter intake restrictions; I then did a calculation showing the pay-off time for an arbitrary improvement in efficiency; I've provided a baseline for the performance of our OEM system and tools and a methodology to compare to a third party "upgraded" system. I hope I've guided our membership along in this process on what's important in an intake system, and what performance is expected. I don't know what else to do for you AL??? I've laid out all the specs, data, calculations, and facts as clearly as I can. It's up to you now.
BTW, did you see my pictures of my intake air inlet? Is this what you have on your bus? When you mentioned and intake inlet "cap" you had me confused. Is the bell tip the "cap"?
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - al perna - 03-28-2013 11:51
Gary . I need to spend some time rereading this thread , as to the DEvils advocate, you have called me ?. I own a LXI with a S60 and have a valuable investment to protect .I believe whole heartily in this possible modification .
I, also find myself in the middle of a topic of great value to many from wago to wog .
I have never met you, but in reading you post I see you as a cheerleader at best , someone who has been quick to assume and judge.
this topic has the ability to cost many of us money one way or the other , so please dont assume i am just " stoking the fire " . as you say !
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - Ms. Bee - 03-28-2013 15:50
Al,
We are friends so just let me say to you, that I think Gary was paying you a sincere compliment and thanking you for playing the 'devils advocate', in that you were the catalyst to a great discussion. Truly!
Believe me, I often play the devils advocate. If we all were yes men or women then there would be nothing to discuss or to debate and therefore nothing learned.
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - davidbrady - 03-28-2013 19:14
Just a caveat Al. When examining aftermarket intake systems and air cleaners, keep your eyes open for these Wix panel filters. They're 15.0"x15.0"x5.5" in size. "They're a common filter used on BIG Cat engines in off-road applications and in standby generators. Cat makes them, Delco makes them, Wix makes them and they're available on Ebay for $60 each". You may have seen them, shade-tree-engineers love them. The problem is that they only flow 570 CFM of air and you're likely to damage your Series-60 by running one. The S-60 flows 1170 CFM of air at standard conditions. Stay away!
http://www.finditparts.com/t/414/manufacturer/wix-filters/products/2526654/wix-filters-46580
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - Itchintogo - 03-29-2013 09:59
(03-28-2013 11:51)al perna Wrote: Gary . I need to spend some time rereading this thread , as to the DEvils advocate, you have called me ?. I own a LXI with a S60 and have a valuable investment to protect .I believe whole heartily in this possible modification .
Playing Devils advocate is aka presenting a different side of a use case Al. It is not something you call someone. And it was good that you in this case presented your thoughts so they could be discussed.
[/color]I, also find myself in the middle of a topic of great value to many from wago to wog .
It is actually WaGu not wago.
I have never met you, but in reading you post I see you as a cheerleader at best , someone who has been quick to assume and judge.
After the consideration of 2 professional intelligent individuals offering true science, evidence and proving it out over several days I think that is hardly quick to assume and judge. Tell me what have you offered? As for being a cheerleader I hardly have the figure for it!
this topic has the ability to cost many of us money one way or the other , so please dont assume i am just " stoking the fire " . as you say !
Stoking the fire are your words Al not mine and I did not say them "as you say". Your post in reality enlightens most people more so about you than me.Let us know how this mod works for you if you do it.Thanks!
(03-28-2013 19:14)davidmbrady Wrote: Just a caveat Al. When examining aftermarket intake systems and air cleaners, keep your eyes open for these Wix panel filters. They're 15.0"x15.0"x5.5" in size. "They're a common filter used on BIG Cat engines in off-road applications and in standby generators. Cat makes them, Delco makes them, Wix makes them and they're available on Ebay for $60 each". You may have seen them, shade-tree-engineers love them. The problem is that they only flow 570 CFM of air and you're likely to damage your Series-60 by running one. The S-60 flows 1170 CFM of air at standard conditions. Stay away!
http://www.finditparts.com/t/414/manufacturer/wix-filters/products/2526654/wix-filters-46580
I know how to fix that David. Buy 2 and double them up!
Ukuleles please!
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - al perna - 03-29-2013 10:24
Gary. If it is ok with you , we can stay on track here with what this thread is about
Accept my apoligy for the defensive post . Iam one of those who act and speakes without thought at times . now back to our Filter Minder .The problem is that they only flow 570 CFM of air and you're likely to damage your Series-60 by running one. The S-60 flows 1170 CFM of air at standard conditions. Stay away!
David . Are these values from DD ?
and NO I did not see you Pic , what post is it in ?
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - davidbrady - 03-29-2013 10:58
Thanks Al, Thanks Gary,
Al, here's a photo album showing my intake inlet bell: https://picasaweb.google.com/dmb2000/IntakeSystemBellTip?authkey=Gv1sRgCLXk_fHsnfGu6AE
And, here's a pic and some specs (below the pic) of the ubiquitous heavy duty 15x15x5 inch panel filter. It should look familiar. The point is that the S60 flows 1170 CFM while this filter is only spec-ed to 570. Engine damage can result by running these filters: http://www.finditparts.com/t/414/manufacturer/wix-filters/products/2526654/wix-filters-46580
RE: Filter Minders for Dummies - al perna - 03-29-2013 12:05
David , thanks for the pic s , I do not have that set up your pics show . this was what I thought to be a modification from BB . the 2000 LXI has the 45 degree cut to the back side . Very interesting info there also .
Jennifer , could you tell us, which set up do you have on the stack ? I believe Pete has the 45 cut also ?