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+--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63)
+--- Thread: Replacement Generator (/showthread.php?tid=318)
Replacement Generator - randydupree - 05-15-2005 07:41
the perkins is very dated,not saying its not good,its just old,and they really
run dirty,smoking and dripping a little (ok,a lot in some cases) the real
problem is when the gennies we all love or hate were built,there was no other
option for engines,so we got stuck with an engine thats twice as big as
needed,horsepower wise.so,what happens when you run a diesel and its not loaded
? it smokes! diesels are happy when they are working! randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: bobloomas
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
A $6000. repair bill cause me to get rid of the old outdated perkins.
If the Perkins is so great why is it not still being use in new generators?
Bob Loomas 1985 PT
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Replacement Generator - Gary Miller - 05-15-2005 08:49
Hi Jeff,
I'm one who has, as you said, "made the move".
It's been a couple years since replacing my 7.5Kw Kohler gasoline
generator with a PowerTech 7.0Kw diesel, and I'm very satisfied with
the unit. While I haven't had to speak with the folks at PowerTech
much since the install, they were very helpful with my decision
process and any questions I came up with while doing the install.
It runs the Kubota 3-cyl D905. Some use the D1105. Both are very
resilient tractor engines nicely matched up for generator usage.
One of the best things about the newer generation of generators
available for RV's is the use of technology like 4 pole generators vs.
2 pole, allowing the rpm to drop to 1800 from 3600, DC modes which
allow the engine to run even quieter during times of low electrical
demand, and so on. Once these units are enclosed in a nice hush box,
the loudest portions are the cooling fans and exhaust. Some are using
airbags to mount them on which reduces vibrations, and even more
advancemants.
There's a lot to shop for out there, and it can get very pricey. I
used to consider about a grand a Kw installed. You can save money by
finding a demo or lightly used unit and installing it yourself.
Regarding power usage, I'm very happy with the 7.0Kw and will be
keeping a close eye on Mike H. and Jeff as they complete the
electrical changes and additions to Mike's coach. The only difference
between my 33' and your 35' is the middle A/C. I think the 12.5
Kohler is more than adequate for the Wanderlodge, and certainly leaves
room for a smaller capacity unit if the Perkins/Kohler needs to be
replaced. The SP's and newer FC's are running the 8.0 Onan without
any problems that I've heard of. Again, only one less A/C.
I remember standing over my old generator wondering if it was worth it
to pour money into it only to have a 20 year old unit with new parts,
so I know what you're going through. I came up with aobut 1500
dollars in parts I needed, and then would I be having fun on vacation
or fiddling with it? The main deciding factor was that I earn my
vacations and want to spend them worry free with my family. So I did
it. No regrets.
Good luck with your decision.
Gary Miller
83 FC 33
Wauwatosa, WI
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff August"
wrote:
> Today while removing the Perkins motor to replace the seals on it we
> got to thinking, does it pay to even do the job on a generator with
> more than 5500 hours on it? We wonder if all we will be doing is
fixing
> this thing, and would the money be better spent in the purchase of a
> new Onan 8000 quiet deisel? Is this a good route to go and is a 8000
> big enough, its 240 pounds lighter than a 10,000 or a 12,500 watt
Onan.
> Will it fit in the tray and can it be wired into the coach as it
is?
> Looking for comments & suggestions by those who have made this move.
>
> Jeff & Michelle August
> 1980 FC35RB
> Plymouth, WI
Replacement Generator - Jeff Miller - 05-15-2005 12:41
The Perkins/Kohler was a good genset choice a quarter-of-a-century
ago, wasn't much available in a diesel genset for RV use.
The Yanmar engine replaced the Perkins in '86, anyone I've met who
had both has rated the Yanmar above the Perkins, quieter and cleaner
as well as very reliable. In '87 the FC went to a much quieter Onan
genset which has been very reliable except for BB's choice of
radiator mounting.
True, the Perkins/Kohler will do the job for many hours of use if
properly used and maintained, albeit rather inefficiently.
Unfortunately the 25years of getting condensation and in many cases
salt-air in the windings etc. have likely caused it more grief than
has the hours of use. Add old oil and coolant to that, and long
periods of non-use, and you have something that is less than
completely dependable, which is why a used one would be worth
significantly less than the ~$12,000 of a new 12.5kw diesel RV genset.
If you are going to remove it, and rebuild it for re-installation, it
would IMO be prudent to have the generator portion serviced also. Re-
building the brushes and brusholders, new bearings, and a "dip and
bake" on the rotor and stator will likely make it a new-old
generator. Add to that the updated voltage regulator and a re-wiring
of the control box, you should have an electrically perfect
generator. That with the engine service however might cost more than
the genset is worth, and it will still be a stinky, smokey,
inefficient, noisy, heavy genset which is probably nearing the end of
parts availability.
As Gary mentioned, something in the 8kw range will probably serve an
FC pretty well, as BB decided in '87 when they took the 12.5kw genset
and center A/C out of the standard equipment list on the FC35. It
will be quieter, which your neighbors will apreciate, and run closer
to .6gph on fuel also, and you can use the rest of the generator tray
for something more useful.
- Jeff Miller
http://www.wanderlodge.net
http://www.millercoachworks.com
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff August"
> wrote:
> > Today while removing the Perkins motor to replace the seals on it
we
> > got to thinking, does it pay to even do the job on a generator
with
> > more than 5500 hours on it? We wonder if all we will be doing is
> fixing
> > this thing, and would the money be better spent in the purchase
of a
> > new Onan 8000 quiet deisel? Is this a good route to go and is a
8000
> > big enough, its 240 pounds lighter than a 10,000 or a 12,500 watt
> Onan.
> > Will it fit in the tray and can it be wired into the coach as it
> is?
> > Looking for comments & suggestions by those who have made this
move.
> >
> > Jeff & Michelle August
> > 1980 FC35RB
> > Plymouth, WI
Replacement Generator - beancounterman - 05-15-2005 13:10
Randy, interesting story. However, I'm not confident that it is credible. If you
read Detroit
Diesel's service bulletin regarding their lube oil recommendations, they discuss
extended
drain intervals, as I recall in the context of using synthetic oils. In any
case, Detroit will
allow extended oil drain intervals IF SUPPORTED BY OIL SAMPLING. In addition,
several
years ago, I was aware of a test program in which Mobil Delvac 1, a multi-vis
oil and as
such not normally approved for the 92 Series engines, was used in a fleet of 92
Series
Detroit Diesels. Detroit and Mobil both relyed on oil sampling to judge whether
the Delvac
1 was suitable. The oil performed superbly, but Detroit never published approval
for it.
Beancounterman
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree
> oil samples! heres a good story on that,on the TDR forum a guy bought a new
dodge
diesel truck,and he decided to send oil samples off instead of changing oil
every 3000
miles or so,so,he sends 3 samples off every time to 3 different places to get
them
analized,blackstone labs,cat and another one.all 3 came back everytime with
three
completely different reports,none of them were the same,not even close.this
thread went
on for years,up to 20,000 miles on the truck before the guy gave up.he said that
its way
better to change your oil and trust that the new oil was good rather than trust
the labs to
do it right and get you back the results from your oil,not someone else's..i
change my
oil.its way cheaper in the end,IMHO....randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: beancounterman
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
>
>
> Some quick comments.
>
> I have about 30 years experience around big coaches with diesel generators.
In the
early
> years, these gensets were virtually all Perkins powered. Later, Yamar has
been the little
> diesel engine of choice. Anyway, both brands have been almost bullet-proof
from the
> reliability standpoint. In addition, they are long-lived to the point that
very few get to
the
> point of needing overhaul or replacement. I'd guess that in most cases,
10,000 hours
is
> attainable, maybe more.
>
> Regarding oil change intervals, how about doing oil sampling to validate
extended
change
> intervals rather than guessing? I think any large generator or truck shop
can take
periodic
> samples and send them to a good lab until you validate an extended interval.
I'd also
> suggest using a major brand diesel synthetic lube oil like Mobil Delvac 1 if
you're going
for
> extended change intervals.
>
> Beancounterman
Replacement Generator - randydupree - 05-15-2005 13:44
thats up to you! i don't know if the labs are credible,so i change my oil.its
just one thing less to worrie about! i used to do oil samples on 100 trucks a
year,but,i still changed the oil every month..oil is not that expensive!! my two
cents..(smile!!) randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: beancounterman
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
Randy, interesting story. However, I'm not confident that it is credible. If
you read Detroit
Diesel's service bulletin regarding their lube oil recommendations, they
discuss extended
drain intervals, as I recall in the context of using synthetic oils. In any
case, Detroit will
allow extended oil drain intervals IF SUPPORTED BY OIL SAMPLING. In addition,
several
years ago, I was aware of a test program in which Mobil Delvac 1, a multi-vis
oil and as
such not normally approved for the 92 Series engines, was used in a fleet of
92 Series
Detroit Diesels. Detroit and Mobil both relyed on oil sampling to judge
whether the Delvac
1 was suitable. The oil performed superbly, but Detroit never published
approval for it.
Beancounterman
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree
> oil samples! heres a good story on that,on the TDR forum a guy bought a new
dodge
diesel truck,and he decided to send oil samples off instead of changing oil
every 3000
miles or so,so,he sends 3 samples off every time to 3 different places to get
them
analized,blackstone labs,cat and another one.all 3 came back everytime with
three
completely different reports,none of them were the same,not even close.this
thread went
on for years,up to 20,000 miles on the truck before the guy gave up.he said
that its way
better to change your oil and trust that the new oil was good rather than
trust the labs to
do it right and get you back the results from your oil,not someone else's..i
change my
oil.its way cheaper in the end,IMHO....randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: beancounterman
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
>
>
> Some quick comments.
>
> I have about 30 years experience around big coaches with diesel
generators. In the
early
> years, these gensets were virtually all Perkins powered. Later, Yamar has
been the little
> diesel engine of choice. Anyway, both brands have been almost bullet-proof
from the
> reliability standpoint. In addition, they are long-lived to the point that
very few get to
the
> point of needing overhaul or replacement. I'd guess that in most cases,
10,000 hours
is
> attainable, maybe more.
>
> Regarding oil change intervals, how about doing oil sampling to validate
extended
change
> intervals rather than guessing? I think any large generator or truck shop
can take
periodic
> samples and send them to a good lab until you validate an extended
interval. I'd also
> suggest using a major brand diesel synthetic lube oil like Mobil Delvac 1
if you're going
for
> extended change intervals.
>
> Beancounterman
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Replacement Generator - beancounterman - 05-16-2005 00:19
One final comment, and then I'll shut up! ;-)
I agree that oil is relatively cheap. Detroit and Cat both recommend changing
oil in coach
engines at 15,000 miles intervals, a couple of times a year or less for most.
This is no big
hassle, and complete periodic maintenance with a good inspection twice a year is
prudent
for a lot of reasons. But changing the lube oil in a gen set every 150 hours,
like
manufacturers recommend, can be a real pain. If one is running the gen set 24/7,
for
example, that is every six days! At 8 hours a day, it takes less than three
weeks to reach
150 hours.
If the use of synthetic lube oils supported with oil sampling allows 300 hour or
500 hour
drain intervals (roughly equivilent to 18,000 to 30,000 miles), this would be a
real benefit
and convenience for a significant number of folks, those who put a lot of hours
on their
gen sets. (Newell uses synthetic Mobil for the initial factory fill and at their
service center
for both gen sets and main engines. They don't recommend extended drain
intervals
because of possible conflicts with original equipment warranties, but do use
synthetics as
added insurance against owners going over 150 hours or 15,000 miles without
realizing
the consequences.)
I also think the gen set manufacturers are a little behind the eight ball
regarding the
possibility of extending the drain intervals using modern lubricants. The last
time I looked
at a Kohler owner's manual, I recall that the lube oil recommendation
recommended a lube
oil SAE classification that was long obsolete, about ten years out of date!
Anyway, I now have a project. I'm going to dig into the current recommendations
of Cat
and Yanmar/Kohler/Power Tech to see if they will bless extended drain intervals
if
synthetics are used, with or without oil sampling.
Bean
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree
> thats up to you! i don't know if the labs are credible,so i change my oil.its
just one thing
less to worrie about! i used to do oil samples on 100 trucks a year,but,i still
changed the
oil every month..oil is not that expensive!! my two cents..(smile!!)
randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: beancounterman
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
>
>
> Randy, interesting story. However, I'm not confident that it is credible. If
you read
Detroit
> Diesel's service bulletin regarding their lube oil recommendations, they
discuss
extended
> drain intervals, as I recall in the context of using synthetic oils. In any
case, Detroit will
> allow extended oil drain intervals IF SUPPORTED BY OIL SAMPLING. In
addition, several
> years ago, I was aware of a test program in which Mobil Delvac 1, a
multi-vis oil and as
> such not normally approved for the 92 Series engines, was used in a fleet of
92 Series
> Detroit Diesels. Detroit and Mobil both relyed on oil sampling to judge
whether the
Delvac
> 1 was suitable. The oil performed superbly, but Detroit never published
approval for it.
>
> Beancounterman
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree
> > oil samples! heres a good story on that,on the TDR forum a guy bought a
new dodge
> diesel truck,and he decided to send oil samples off instead of changing oil
every 3000
> miles or so,so,he sends 3 samples off every time to 3 different places to
get them
> analized,blackstone labs,cat and another one.all 3 came back everytime with
three
> completely different reports,none of them were the same,not even close.this
thread
went
> on for years,up to 20,000 miles on the truck before the guy gave up.he said
that its
way
> better to change your oil and trust that the new oil was good rather than
trust the labs
to
> do it right and get you back the results from your oil,not someone else's..i
change my
> oil.its way cheaper in the end,IMHO....randydupree93wb
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: beancounterman
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: [WanderlodgeForum] Replacement Generator
> >
> >
> > Some quick comments.
> >
> > I have about 30 years experience around big coaches with diesel
generators. In the
> early
> > years, these gensets were virtually all Perkins powered. Later, Yamar
has been the
little
> > diesel engine of choice. Anyway, both brands have been almost
bullet-proof from
the
> > reliability standpoint. In addition, they are long-lived to the point
that very few get
to
> the
> > point of needing overhaul or replacement. I'd guess that in most cases,
10,000
hours
> is
> > attainable, maybe more.
> >
> > Regarding oil change intervals, how about doing oil sampling to validate
extended
> change
> > intervals rather than guessing? I think any large generator or truck
shop can take
> periodic
> > samples and send them to a good lab until you validate an extended
interval. I'd
also
> > suggest using a major brand diesel synthetic lube oil like Mobil Delvac
1 if you're
going
> for
> > extended change intervals.
> >
> > Beancounterman
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Replacement Generator - freewill2008 - 05-16-2005 03:05
> But changing the lube oil in a gen set every 150 hours, like
manufacturers recommend, can be a real pain. If one is running the
gen set 24/7, for example, that is every six days! At 8 hours a day,
it takes less than three weeks to reach 150 hours.<
A few years ago I spent 10 days on a tour bus (It was an Eagle with
an "entertainer" interior). The diesel genset ran 24/7 except for
two shutdowns to change oil. During the shutdowns, the bus interior
ran off inverters powered by the 6V92 batteries and alternator.
These busses are in service continuously. Emmylou Harris had just
moved out of ours following 6 weeks on tour out west.
I asked our operator about the frequent genset oil changes. His
answer was that 150 hour oil changes had proved to be both the
cheapest option in the long run, and the best approach for reliabilty.
Bob Griesel WA
Replacement Generator - jon lechich - 05-16-2005 03:40
Did you get your brake retarted installed? And do you have a gas driven
generator? Bob how often do you suggest that you light oft the generator plant
& how long do you let it run if just for maintaining the engine?
Jon Lechich'
78 Wanderlodge
freewill2008
> But changing the lube oil in a gen set every 150 hours, like
manufacturers recommend, can be a real pain. If one is running the
gen set 24/7, for example, that is every six days! At 8 hours a day,
it takes less than three weeks to reach 150 hours.<
A few years ago I spent 10 days on a tour bus (It was an Eagle with
an "entertainer" interior). The diesel genset ran 24/7 except for
two shutdowns to change oil. During the shutdowns, the bus interior
ran off inverters powered by the 6V92 batteries and alternator.
These busses are in service continuously. Emmylou Harris had just
moved out of ours following 6 weeks on tour out west.
I asked our operator about the frequent genset oil changes. His
answer was that 150 hour oil changes had proved to be both the
cheapest option in the long run, and the best approach for reliabilty.
Bob Griesel WA
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Replacement Generator - freewill2008 - 05-16-2005 04:44
I try to run both engines every couple weeks. With the genset I like
to get the exhaust system fully heated up so any residual water will
evaporate. The biggest issue with the gas Kohler is fuel. I don't
run it enough to keep fresh gas in the tank. Fuel stabilizer helps.
The bus goes in a week from today for the retarder install. All the
electrical work is done; the installer will do the driveline work.
The job is running late. Better late than never.
Bob Griesel '84 FC31 WLII WA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, jon lechich
wrote:
> Did you get your brake retarted installed? And do you have a gas
driven generator? Bob how often do you suggest that you light oft
the generator plant & how long do you let it run if just for
maintaining the engine?
>
> Jon Lechich'
> 78 Wanderlodge
>
> freewill2008
>
> > But changing the lube oil in a gen set every 150 hours, like
> manufacturers recommend, can be a real pain. If one is running the
> gen set 24/7, for example, that is every six days! At 8 hours a
day,
> it takes less than three weeks to reach 150 hours.<
>
>
> A few years ago I spent 10 days on a tour bus (It was an Eagle with
> an "entertainer" interior). The diesel genset ran 24/7 except for
> two shutdowns to change oil. During the shutdowns, the bus interior
> ran off inverters powered by the 6V92 batteries and alternator.
> These busses are in service continuously. Emmylou Harris had just
> moved out of ours following 6 weeks on tour out west.
>
> I asked our operator about the frequent genset oil changes. His
> answer was that 150 hour oil changes had proved to be both the
> cheapest option in the long run, and the best approach for
reliabilty.
>
>
> Bob Griesel WA
>