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+--- Thread: RIV Report? (/showthread.php?tid=7301)
RIV Report? - David Brady - 10-28-2008 08:53
Oh boy, did someone mention the "R" word?
David Brady
'02 LXi, NC
Rob Robinson wrote:
Can't get a more frank and honest evaluation than that. For all
the reasons you have detailed Lloyd I am truly thankfull I own a BB
with rivets and without slides.
2008/10/28 Lloyd Chaffin <"lnchaffin@charter.net">
David, I know we are getting off subject here for this RIV thread but I
must respond to your slide comments. I agree with everything you are
saying. Once everybody went to slides Bluebird had to or they would have
never sold any coaches. And they did do what you just explained to a
point. They desinged a great slide structure into the coach but a slide
is only as good as it's weakest link. No matter how strong it's
structure is if it won't slide in and out or leaks like a water falls
when it rains then it would be best not to have it. If I'm not mistaken
doesn't your 02 LXI have the air seal on your slide. How many times have
you had it replaced because it leaks? The air seals and the electronics
were a very weak link on the LXI and M380 and since they never worked
right the slide was a major pain. I don't no about the LXI owners but
alot of M380 owners actually got rid of it because of the slides and
some other issues. If you had a 80 thousand dollar Lexus that ran like a
swiss watch but the driver door would not stay shut and leaked when it
rains would you say you had a great car? The differance in my example is
that I bet Lexus would have fixed my drivers door the 1st time I took it
to them. I know people who have had their air seals replaced 5 or 6
times. The 1st time I drove my coach all the way to Georgia to have my
air seals fixed they put some supper glue on them and gave it back to
me. Said it was fixed. Lasted about 2 weeks before they started leaking
again. But, the good news is I have worked on my slides so much now that
I just about know how to fix them myself if I could just get the parts.
Some of the electronics are real hard to fix but the air seals are made
by HWH and the newer seals are lasting must longer now,,,knock on wood.
I hope you have a great day, I'm fixen to get the Bird ready to go to
the Nascar races at Texas Motor Speedway,
Lloyd Chaffin
2004 M380
--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..." wrote:
>
> But one could also argue that someone invented electronics which
> resulted in a demand for dvd players, televisions, computers,
> electric refrigerators, gps units, hi-fidelity sound systems, etc.
The
> customer then demanded all of these features in their motorhome
> which unfortunately required heavy batteries and heavy generators,
> which then resulted in heavy chassis, axles and tires; culminating
in
> a coach which overloads it's suspension. The list goes on. People
> invent things which are cool, the buying public demands cool things
> in their motorhomes, and manufacturers scramble to accommodate
> these cool things. If the manufacturers delay, they lose market
share.
> Slides are in this category.
>
> It's not the demand for features that damaged/ruined the
> motorhome manufacturer, it's the manufacturer's rush to
> accommodate these features without first doing the necessary
> engineering.
>
> BB actually stands out amongst these manufacturers by their
insistence
> on doing the necessary engineering. Every slide equipped BB was
> designed from the ground up to accommodate a slide. Never did BB
> simply take an existing bus and chop a hole in the side of it. In
all
> cases the overall superstructure from basement triangulation, to
> subframes, to side and roof construction was designed to support
> slide technology. This can not be said of every manufacturer. By
> providing slides in their coaches, BB brought it's product line
into
> the 2000's and sustained (for a few additional years) it's
Wanderlodge
> business. This is what I mean by "slide-outs saved 'em".
>
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> Don Bradner wrote:
> >
> > David, as someone who moved from slides to no-slides
deliberately, I
> > would say there is a big difference between demise and ruin
in this
> > instance.
> >
> > A lot of manufacturers were dragged kicking and screaming
into the
> > slide business because they had to (because demise was the
other
> > choice). Slides did a lot of damage (ruin) to many coach
models, and
> > it is likely an M450 wouldn't have weight problems without
them. We
> > would all have been better off (in my opinion) if the slide
had not
> > been invented so the public wouldn't have insisted on them.
> >
> > Don Bradner
> > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2. cfm?user= 1
> >
> > On 10/28/2008 at 7:55 AM David Brady wrote:
> >
> > >Actually, slide-outs saved 'em. Imagine trying to sell
> > >a motorhome today w/o a slide out. Impossible. The
> > >buying public demands expandable rooms. There are
> > >many things that may have spelled the demise of
Wanderlodge,
> > >but please, let's not single out the expandable room.
> > >
> > >David Brady
> > >'02 LXi, (Living room slide, works great)
> > >
> > >
> > >Lloyd Chaffin wrote:
> > >>
> > >> John,
> > >>
> > >> I will keep my M380 because I do like it and I have
put too much
> > >> blood sweat and tears into it now to give up. Alot
of M380 owners
did
> > >> give up and got rid of it. I enjoy reading about you
guys who
have
> > >> the older "Real" Birds and I am kind of envious. My
father-in-law
> > >> owned 10 Birds in his life. His last was a 97 and he
said he
wouldn't
> > >> buy another one because they where going to start
putting slide
outs
> > >> in them and that would ruin em. Ha, he was so right!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
--------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> >
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >
>
--
Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
94 WLWB
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
RIV Report? - Gregory OConnor - 10-28-2008 18:30
Lloyd, thanks I guess 'the legacy that continues' is only
commentary. Macy 's title is Marketing director, fitting.
CCW repowers crap who's owners make the change for federal
mandates??? Always thought thas why they bought FortValley. I bet
the Motorhome thing came with the realestate and is just a little
project for them. Only sold one BUT got 1.6mill for the axle
recall from the PO.
I think your screwed if current CCW ownership is your only
recourse. Because it sounds like they dont care to help and are too
polite to tell you the truth. Maybe you can get a 'recall
whatever' arranged and make the PO pay ( find some other RV outfit
to make the repair)
Sorry
Greg94ptCa
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Chaffin"
>
> John,
>
> I apprciate your response to my post and understand how you feel
also
> but you also have to understand that 95% of the people on these
> bluebird forums have coaches from the 80's and 90's. I have been
> watching these forums for over 2 years now but have never posted
much
> because nobody has ever really said anything about my situation.
Do
> any of you guys have warranty's on your coaches? You can take your
> coach anywhere or try to fix yourself but since I had a warranty I
> wanted to use it. I am greatful that CCW was still around so my
> warraty was not worthless but I checked into that before I bought
it
> and was lied to by CCW about where I could get it worked on. I was
> told there where several places that would honor my warranty. Not
> true! I looked Macy in the eyes at RITV at Perrin after driving it
to
> Fort Valley 3 times and it still wasn't fixed and asked him where
> else I could take it because they couldn't fix it. He told me
Bleakly
> was a great group of people and I could have my coach fixed there.
> That was a lie. I took it there and spent 6 weeks calling and
> pleading with CCW every day to have it fixed and they would never
> approve anything. Bleakly at my pleading actually started working
on
> it and ran up a few thousand dollars of work and sent CCW a bill.
> They refused to pay it. Bleakly actually called me and told me to
> come get my coach off their lot. Did you buy your Bird new? Did
you
> get treated like this? I have spent over 10 thousand dollars out
of
> my pocket to just get warranty work done....have you? Did you have
to
> leave your coach at Fort Valley for 4 months to get something
fixed?
> I have. I could go on but I will stop. I just wanted to be treated
> fairly if CCW was going to stay in business. How could they even
> think of making a new coach when they treat their excisting
customers
> like this.
>
> As for RITV at Branson, when they cashed my 375 dollar check I
never
> got an acknowledgment of any kind that I was even regestered. How
> about a letter or email from Macy saying thanks for coming to RITV
at
> Branson. This year will be different and not like the past years.
We
> won't be offering alot of the things you have seen at RITV in the
> past but I will be glad to see you there. Yes I knew that it would
be
> much different and toned down some but gee, give me a break. It
was
> the difference between night and day.
>
> I will keep my M380 because I do like it and I have put too much
> blood sweat and tears into it now to give up. Alot of M380 owners
did
> give up and got rid of it. I enjoy reading about you guys who have
> the older "Real" Birds and I am kind of envious. My father-in-law
> owned 10 Birds in his life. His last was a 97 and he said he
wouldn't
> buy another one because they where going to start putting slide
outs
> in them and that would ruin em. Ha, he was so right!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts John and if there are any M380 owners out
> there that need some help give me call. Please excuse my poor
> spelling.
>
> Lloyd Chaffin
> 2004 M380
> 817-371-3438
>
RIV Report? - mneshati2 - 10-28-2008 20:26
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ross"
>
> Hydraulic slide?? Air seals??--Aqua-Hot ??? nice, but-- not in
> 450LXi
>
> Ross
>
>
> > Hi Lloyd,
> >
> > W-------------. My slide is hydraulically powered, dirt simple, and
> built
> > by HWH. I've had nothing but stellar performance from it during
> > my 4 year ownership.------------------------
> >--------------- If that's it, just the slide, then hang out here and
> we'll get it fixed. If
> > it's like my LXi slide, then it's infinitely adjustable on every
> axis.
> > Be glad for the air seal. Many other manufacturers don't use it
> cause
> > its expensive. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water! If the
> > superstructure/chassis/frame is high quality, that's all that
> matters,
> > everything else can be fixed.
> >
> > David Brady
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> >-
>I have wrestled with my response for two full days now and I still don't know
where to
start. I will for sure start by thanking several people including Curt Sprenger,
Eric Perplies,
David Brady, and Tom Warner for their support and to answer a simple question
from Jim
Riorden regarding the number of Blue Birds at the 2007 RIV it was 198 not the
400 that it
has grown to by some accounts in the last few days of these posts.
Just as importantly, I want to applogize for my failure to attend this years
rally. It was my
idea to move it, I thought it would be fun and a change of pace, and last year
at the RIV
our informal poll of attendees showed overwhelming support. However as this year
has
unfolded we have been besieged by the worst economic downturn in recent history,
a
credit crisis, a further blow as a result of the axle recall that we could not
have anticipated
the death of our CEO's brother and business partner this past April forcing Dale
to
become active in two additional business units, and capped off with my personal
health
issues. As many of you know I have been battling with Parkinsons for several
years now
and this past 90 days my symptoms finally outran the medications ability to
control them,
forcing me to spend several weeks with my doctors experimenting with new drugs
and
doses and deciding which side effects I could live with for the relative relief
they provided.
Consequently as I was under physicans care at the time I simply could not make
it. Dale
has been consumed in dealing with the loss of his brother, consolidating the
companies
and dealing with issues I would normally be responsible for and therefore was
covering a
pressing business obligation for me.
Not wishing to reveal too much of my or Dale's personal struggles I asked Rick
Clayton to
simply appologize for our absence and hope that people would understand that
there
may be years were circumstances simply won't allow Dale and or I to attend.
However the
very vial and personal nature of the attacks that have ensued over the last few
days have
compelled me to share my situation more openly as the last thing I expected to
do is to
offend any of you by taking our lack of presence as a lack of interest or desire
to be with
you.
I must take very strong and pointed exception to Mr. Chaffin's attacks first and
foremost
on behalf of the company and the hardworking people who have labored against all
odds
to succeed in these adverse times, and secondly on behalf of myself for being
called a
liar, not just once but several times by Mr. Chaffin. In over 30 years as a
business
executive I have never wittnessed this lack of civility. How many of you think
it is
acceptable for someone who has a different perspective on a set of circumstances
than
you do, to go on a public forum and call you a liar? Has the internet, emails,
blogs and
such dehumanized us to the point that we find it OK to publicly slander and
defame
people? Does this forum find this behavior acceptable?
I will not dignify Mr. Chaffin's allegations and claims of warranty on this site
and in this
public arena. I will state emphatically that we have spent millions of dollars
covering
warranty claims on units that we felt were ligitimate and there are hundreds of
you out
there that know this is true as you have been the beneficiaries of our warranty
work. I
have dozens and dozens of emails from customers thanking us for our hard work on
their
behalf and in many cases telling us we fixed the problem when the previous
owners
couldn't.
I do want to address many of the false allegations from several of you that have
appeared
over the last few days: That we built all the M380 and LXI's and profited from
them but
won't spend the warranty money.
FACT
We did not build a single M380, and only one 450 LXI, and the owners of the one
we
built reported to me as recently as a week ago that they love it and have had
great joy
from it. However we have poured millions into warranty coverage on legitimate
warranty
"They knew about the axle problem when they bought the company"
FACT
We did not have any knowledge of the axle problem when we bought the company,
this
particular piece of slander is particularly disturbing on many fronts, but
simply put, we
aren't stupid, we would never have purchased the company knowing this, the
impact on
owner confidence, the costly recall process, not counting the repair cost, and
the delay in
coming to market based on the need to completely redesign and reengineer the
unit
would have been more than enough to stop the deal. And we all know where that
would
have left Wanderlodge and you all. Cerberus had stopped all work on the
Wanderlodges,
and were ready to shut down the business had we not bought it.
Instead, we bought the business, redesigned the product to meet weight
requirements,
and went right down the line to fix the historic weak points, we engineered
fixes for
leaks, slides were a problem, went back to HWH slides, inverters were a problem
went to
two Trace pure sine wave 4000 watt inverters, house wiring a problem, went to
the
industry standard spyder controls, the list goes on and on.
We were confronted with the front axle problem, forced Blue Bird Body to the
table, got
them to file the NHTSA recall and have worked night and day with owners to get
their
units as functional as possible. You want to scoff and belittle the fix? Don't
scoff at us, we
are doing everything in our power to fix a problem we didn't and would not have
created.
Many owners are thrilled with their reworked units, they have ample cargo
capacity, better
handling due to a lower CG and a quieter less vibrating generator installation.
Are some
unhappy, sure, again, not our fault, not our problem but we have done everything
in our
power to make things as right as we can. I truly and honestly don't understand
how this
issue is turned on us in anger.
Now to our future and the Wanderlodge's survival. Roughly 16 months ago when we
bought the company it was widely believed in the industry that the economy was
stable,
that the RV industry was continuing to grow and would through at least 2009. if
you don't
believe me go look up last years University of Michigan RV industry economic
report,
widely held as the bible for the industry.
Look were we sit today, two out of the three largest lenders to the RV industry,
Wachovia
and GE are out of the business, National RV.... Bankrupt gone, Weekend Warrior,
Bankrupt
gone, several other smaller guys, gone... Fleetwood, stock at .25 cents,
delisted from the
New York stock exchange, nearly gone, Monico, hanging on by a thread, their
dealers
have no more floorplan money to buy anymore units, nothing is selling.
RV sales..down 60% and what is selling is at massive discounts, no one is making
money.
Ten Thousand RV's in San Diego, gone, La Mesa, closing and consolidating stores.
Why don't we have dealers?? The credit crisis has left them with no floor plan
money.
Simply put they can't afford to buy a stock unit.
So here is the greatest contradiction I have heard yet, "We don't want to see
CCW fail"
"But I won't buy a new Blue Bird because what if CCW fails"...... anyone else
see the flaw
here? If we don't sell RV's how do we survive? if you want to see us survive,
you need to
buy Blue Birds... If you don't buy Blue Birds, you not only guarantee our
demise... You are
responsible for it.
Someone else steps in to criticize us for being late with the 2009 RV for the
FMCA, and
for the poor showing our then dealer made of coaches.
The axle issue came up and forced us to redesign the RV to provide a product
with
respectable cargo capacity on a legal front end. Do you know the work that goes
into that
kind of engineering feat? While juggling a recall? What you should be proud of
is that your
brand has new owners that refused to build or ship a product that wasn't
engineered or
built correctly, even if it missed the whole show.
Our company has poured double digit millions into this Brand to keep the doors
open
what has that meant to you? So you could get warranty on product we didn't build
and
wouldn't have built or shipped as designed, to perform recall work for defects
in design
we didn't design on product we didn't build, to redesign and reengineer a Blue
Bird
Product to make you and us proud, we decided to trudge on through the worst
economy
in recent memory and a credit crunch like nothing we have ever seen, and we
built a
beautiful Premier XL. But Mr. Chaffin goes on and on about where to get them
fixed and
blasts us for not having dealers. what if we hadn't bought the company? No
telling how
the recall would have gone, who would have done your warranty. How many of you
have
benefited from us being here to fix your units both in Riverside and Fort
Valley? To buy
parts from us? Have we had turn over? Sure, people will get scared as a company
slows
down and has to right size in this type of economic crisis and some will jump
ship, is that
something to go online and blast us for?
And on a final false assertion by Mr. Chaffin, the 2006 we brought to Branson
has had the
recall done, is fully functional has outstanding front end weight numbers and
wouldn't
have to be parked in anyone's driveway other than to restock for the next
journey.
I have said enough, maybe too much....we have done all we can, we fixed the
design
problems, enhanced the product with top of the line features, provide a better
ride than
any Prevost, build a tougher more rugged chassis than Prevost or Newell,
enhanced our
warranty by going to a 12 year chassis, structure and body warranty and provide
better
craftsmanship and construction than a fiberglass Newell.
The rest is up to you. No company, no matter how well financed, stays in
business if the
product isn't selling, not because they run out of cash, it just isn't good
judgement.
For now, we are tightening our belts and weathering the storm. We have a
beautiful 2009
(RV 02) for sale, Our first 2009, as many saw at Branson is a 1 1/2 bath that
was
purchased by George and Vel Kistler. We are so grateful for their support and
loyalty.
We do understand the importance and the value of a good rally. But given the
unique
nature of the economic crisis we are faced with, the almost daily business
failures, and
the need to find ways to weather this storm we made judgement calls as to where
to place
priorities, we didn't mean to slight anyone, and we will work hard to return
next years
rally to its previous glory. But I stand by our decisions this year and ask you
to consider
walking a mile in the other guys shoe before lashing out. It is seldom simple
and as clear
cut as it seems looking in.
As always, travel safe
Macy
RIV Report? - erniecarpet@... - 10-28-2008 21:02
Macy-- BRAVO!!
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, Texas
83PT40
Weatherford, Texas
RIV Report? - Macy Neshati - 10-28-2008 21:49
I have wrestled with my response for two full days now and I still don't know where to start. I will for sure start by thanking several people including Curt Sprenger, Eric Perplies, David Brady, Ernie, and Tom Warner for their support and to answer a simple question from Jim
Riorden regarding the number of Blue Birds at the 2007 RIV it was 198 not the 400 that it has grown to by some accounts in the last few days of these posts.
Just as importantly, I want to apologize for my failure to attend this years
rally. It was my idea to move it, I thought it would be fun and a change of pace, and last year at the RIV our informal poll of attendees showed overwhelming support. However as this year has unfolded we have been besieged by the worst economic downturn in recent history, a credit crisis, a further blow as a result of the axle recall that we could not have anticipated
the death of our CEO's brother and business partner this past April forcing Dale to become active in two additional business units, and capped off with my personal health issues. As many of you know I have been battling with Parkinsons for several years now and this past 90 days my symptoms finally outran the medications ability to control them, forcing me to spend several weeks with my doctors experimenting with new drugs and doses and deciding which side effects I could live with for the relative relief
they provided. Consequently as I was under physicians care at the time I simply could not make it. Dale has been consumed in dealing with the loss of his brother, consolidating the companies and dealing with issues I would normally be responsible for and therefore was covering a pressing business obligation for me.
Not wishing to reveal too much of my or Dale's personal struggles I asked Rick Clayton to simply apologize for our absence and hope that people would understand that there may be years were circumstances simply won't allow Dale and or I to attend. However the very vial and personal nature of the attacks that have ensued over the last few days have compelled me to share my situation more openly as the last thing I expected to do is to
offend any of you by taking our lack of presence as a lack of interest or desire to be with you.
I must take very strong and pointed exception to Mr. Chaffin's attacks first and foremost on behalf of the company and the hardworking people who have labored against all odds to succeed in these adverse times, and secondly on behalf of myself for being called a liar, not just once but several times by Mr. Chaffin. In over 30 years as a business executive I have never witnessed this lack of civility. How many of you think it is
acceptable for someone who has a different perspective on a set of circumstances than you do, to go on a public forum and call you a liar? Has the internet, emails, blogs and such dehumanized us to the point that we find it OK to publicly slander and defame people? Does this forum find this behavior acceptable?
I will not dignify Mr. Chaffin's allegations and claims of warranty on this site and in this public arena. I will state emphatically that we have spent millions of dollars covering warranty claims on units that we felt were legitimate and there are hundreds of you out there that know this is true as you have been the beneficiaries of our warranty work. I have dozens and dozens of emails from customers thanking us for our hard work on
Their behalf and in many cases telling us we fixed the problem when the previous owners couldn't.
I do want to address many of the false allegations from several of you that have appeared over the last few days: That we built all the M380 and LXI's and profited from them but won't spend the warranty money.
FACT
We did not build a single M380, and only one 450 LXI, and the owners of the one we built reported to me as recently as a week ago that they love it and have had great joy from it. However we have poured millions into warranty coverage on legitimate warranty
"They knew about the axle problem when they bought the company"
FACT
We did not have any knowledge of the axle problem when we bought the company, this particular piece of slander is particularly disturbing on many fronts, but simply put, we aren't stupid, we would never have purchased the company knowing this, the impact on owner confidence, the costly recall process, not counting the repair cost, and the delay in coming to market based on the need to completely redesign and reengineer the unit would have been more than enough to stop the deal. And we all know where that
Would have left Wanderlodge and you all. Cerberus had stopped all work on the Wanderlodges, and were ready to shut down the business had we not bought it.
Instead, we bought the business, redesigned the product to meet weight
requirements, and went right down the line to fix the historic weak points, we engineered fixes for leaks, slides were a problem, went back to HWH slides, inverters were a problem went to two Trace pure sine wave 4000 watt inverters, house wiring a problem, went to the industry standard spyder controls, the list goes on and on.
We were confronted with the front axle problem, forced Blue Bird Body to the table, got them to file the NHTSA recall and have worked night and day with owners to get their units as functional as possible. You want to scoff and belittle the fix? Don't scoff at us, we are doing everything in our power to fix a problem we didn't and would not have created.
Many owners are thrilled with their reworked units, they have ample cargo
capacity, better handling due to a lower CG and a quieter less vibrating generator installation. Are some unhappy, sure, again, not our fault, not our problem but we have done everything in our power to make things as right as we can. I truly and honestly don't understand how this issue is turned on us in anger.
Now to our future and the Wanderlodge's survival. Roughly 16 months ago when we bought the company it was widely believed in the industry that the economy was stable, that the RV industry was continuing to grow and would through at least 2009. If you don't believe me go look up last years University of Michigan RV industry economic report, widely held as the bible for the industry.
Look were we sit today, two out of the three largest lenders to the RV industry, Wachovia and GE are out of the business, National RV.... Bankrupt gone, Weekend Warrior, Bankrupt gone, several other smaller guys, gone... Fleetwood, stock at .25 cents, delisted from the New York stock exchange, nearly gone, Monaco, hanging on by a thread, their dealers have no more floor plan money to buy anymore units, nothing is selling.
RV sales..down 60% and what is selling is at massive discounts, no one is making money. Ten Thousand RV's in San Diego, gone, La Mesa, closing and consolidating stores.
Why don't we have dealers?? The credit crisis has left them with no floor plan money. Simply put they can't afford to buy a stock unit.
So here is the greatest contradiction I have heard yet, "We don't want to see
CCW fail"
"But I won't buy a new Blue Bird because what if CCW fails"...... anyone else
see the flaw here?
If we don't sell RV's how do we survive? if you want to see us survive,
you need to buy Blue Birds... If you don't buy Blue Birds, you not only guarantee our demise... You are responsible for it.
Someone else steps in to criticize us for being late with the 2009 RV for the
FMCA, and for the poor showing our then dealer made of coaches.
The axle issue came up and forced us to redesign the RV to provide a product with respectable cargo capacity on a legal front end. Do you know the work that goes into that kind of engineering feat? While juggling a recall? What you should be proud of is that your brand has new owners that refused to build or ship a product that wasn't engineered or built correctly, even if it missed the whole show.
Our company has poured double digit millions into this Brand to keep the doors open what has that meant to you? So you could get warranty on product we didn't build and wouldn't have built or shipped as designed, to perform recall work for defects in design we didn't design on product we didn't build, to redesign and reengineer a Blue Bird Product to make you and us proud, we decided to trudge on through the worst economy in recent memory and a credit crunch like nothing we have ever seen, and we
built a beautiful Premier XL. But Mr. Chaffin goes on and on about where to get them fixed and blasts us for not having dealers. what if we hadn't bought the company? No telling how the recall would have gone, who would have done your warranty. How many of you have benefited from us being here to fix your units both in Riverside and Fort Valley? To buy parts from us? Have we had turn over? Sure, people will get scared as a company slows down and has to right size in this type of economic crisis and some will jump ship, is that something to go online and blast us for?
And on a final false assertion by Mr. Chaffin, the 2006 we brought to Branson would have to be parked by the new owner, not useable.
FACT
It has had the recall done, is fully functional has outstanding front end weight numbers and wouldn't have to be parked in anyone's driveway other than to restock for the next journey.
I have said enough, maybe too much....we have done all we can, we fixed the
Design problems, enhanced the product with top of the line features, provide a better ride than any Prevost, build a tougher more rugged chassis than Prevost or Newell, enhanced our warranty by going to a 12 year chassis, structure and body warranty and provide better craftsmanship and construction than a fiberglass Newell.
The rest is up to you. No company, no matter how well financed, stays in
business if the product isn't selling, not because they run out of cash, it just isn't good judgment.
For now, we are tightening our belts and weathering the storm. We have a
beautiful 2009 (RV 02) for sale, Our first 2009, as many saw at Branson is a 1 1/2 bath that was purchased by George and Vel Kistler. We are so grateful for their support and loyalty.
We do understand the importance and the value of a good rally. But given the unique nature of the economic crisis we are faced with, the almost daily business failures, and the need to find ways to weather this storm we made judgment calls as to where to place priorities, we didn't mean to slight anyone, and we will work hard to return next years rally to its previous glory.
But I stand by our decisions this year and ask you
to consider walking a mile in the other guys shoe before lashing out. It is seldom as simple and as clear cut as it seems looking in.
As always, travel safe
Macy
Macy
Macy Neshati
Vice President, Sales & Marketing
Complete Coach Works & Blue Bird Coachworks
Office: 951-684-9585 Cell: 951-836-6525 Fax: 951-684-9585
Visit Our Websites: http://www.completecoach.com &http://www.bluebirdcoachworks.com
RIV Report? - mneshati2 - 10-28-2008 22:26
Dear Greg, don't know you other than this forum, don't believe I have ever
knowingly did
you wrong, I know I have never wished you ill or even crossed paths with you. I
am at a
loss as to how you can be so hateful towards a person you don't know and a
company
whose business you don't know.
your constant attacks, nasty words, uninformed assumptions and hateful rehtoric
is just
astonishing. You have distain for a company that has bought a brand to preserve
and
build on, poured millions into it, and instantly side with a Blue Birder simply
by reading his
version of a disagreement, never asked our perspective, but clearly by
suggesting Mr.
Chaffin should post his "promise not granted" is indication you have no idea
what the
issue is really about, but you assume Mr. Chaffin is right and once again
blindly attack me
and CCW.
Sorry, not my style man, I can't hate someone I don't even know, can't wish ill
on someone
who has never hurt me, can't really even wish ill on those that do try to hurt
me.
I wish you peace man, don't know what is eating you but this type of hate and
attempts to
hurt and discredit... I don't understand, another of your emails you slam us as
"repowering
crap"
why don't you take the time to come by and have a cup of coffee, look at our
business,
meet our staff, our technicians, hard working good people trying to make a
living as you
lash out at their company and try to harm it, look in their eyes and see if they
deserve your
hate and disdain....
Even in these trying economic times, life is a blessing man, each day we wake up
is a gift
from the Good Lord, we can only be sure of the moment we are in, we could be
gone in an
instant and we never ever know when that instant is. Do you really want the
fabric of your
life to be filled with hateful words and ill wishes towards others? What if by
some small
chance you are wrong about me? About CCW and our motives? And yet you tarnished
us
with your words, your hatefulness, your ill wishes? Are you really ok with that?
Peace Man, Life is too short for hate, I dont have time for it. I wish you
peace, prosperity,
good fortune, laughter and Good Health.
Come see me someday,
Macy
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Dear John, your post sounds like something written by the public
> relations department of ccw. I think we should gang up on Macy and
> see to it that Lloyd gets some satisfaction or learns that his
> expectations are not attainable for what ever reason. if you read
> Lloyds post and reread your reply, it sounds like more of the same
> excuse rederic he has been getting. People vent to seek action and
> assistance,its not always a yoga exersize. Maybe Llyod could post
> the promise not granted.
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, jvredden@ wrote:
> >
> > Dear Lloyd,
> >
> >
> > Most every point you made is valid. CCW has had issues supporting
> the
> > existing coaches. That said ...they are trying. It's far better
> than having no
> > one pick up BB.
> >
> >
> > Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest but......I'm glad you got
> that off
> > your chest and hope you feel better!
> > I too was at the Branson RITV. It was nice but, like you stated,
> it was not
> > like other RITV's. Rick Clayton from BB was there and had tried
> to organize
> > the event. I asked him why the question answer sessions and
> technical
> > seminars were not available. He indicated to me that he was not
> aware that RITV's
> > in the past had offered them. He was in effect offering a rally
> as he
> > understood rallys to be. I do not think he understood the unique
> offerings of
> > RITV of the past and the expectations of Bluebirders. Please
> send him your
> > suggestions at BB. He seemed quite open to what I suggested.
> Given that he had
> > no concept of past RITV, I think he did ok. It was different and
> not like
> > other RITVs, but if you went to the Branson RITV expecting to see
> the same as
> > past RITVs, you might question if you were realistic in your
> expectations.
> > The RATS organization
> > (Wanderlodgeownersforum.com) moderated by Randy, John, and Rob is
> a great
> > source of info on all BB. They have a get together a couple times
> a year.
> > Very loosely structured organization and that's the way they want
> to keep it.
> > However, you will not find a kinder, more helpful group of
> folks. Try them
> > out.
> >
> >
> > My thought is that CCW needed an east coast facility and BB mfg
> plant
> > offered that for them. They state that CCW is #1 in NG
> conversion of buses. I
> > would think their market position is as good as any. I don't
> think they are
> > expecting to make money on the new Wanderlodge initially. I
> think they feel a
> > market continues to exist for high end coaches ( remember, in
> hard economic
> > times, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...why am I
> always on the
> > losing end?) I am glad they are trying to deliver a new product
> in a market
> > that is not conducive to any new products. Remember just this
> year Mfg,
> > National, See Ya, and Western RV ( Alpine coach) went out of
> business. At least, we
> > are in a better position than those coach owners.
> >
> > I think other Bluebirders need our help and support. I think CCW
> needs it
> > as well. Your points are well taken...now let's focus on the
> positive. You
> > have a wonderful coach. You are blessed to be able to have it.
> Enjoy the
> > process of trying to keep it top notch and run the wheels off of
> it.
> >
> >
> > john redden
> > 91 PT-40
> > **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
> favorites,
> > no registration required and great graphics ââ¬" check it out!
> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?
> redir=
> > http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
> >
>
RIV Report? - jvredden@... - 10-28-2008 23:47
Macy,
Thanks for posting!
I only met you twice, at the 07 RITV and 07 RATS. I also attended the 08 RITV and am at 08 RATS as we speak. While the 08 RITV was different from past RITV's it was still a very good rally. In talking with Rick, though he said nothing, it became apparent that this project was given to him to complete and his knowledge of past RITV'smade it difficult if not impossible to duplicate.I knew of the death of Dale's brother but did not know of your Parkinson's disease.Your post made the picture muchclearer.Please tell Rick thank you for his efforts and thank CCW for the RITV as a whole. Also know that our thoughts and prayers are with you as you battle Parkinson's. Remember its a war you are fighting not just a battle. Medical science offers lots of hope and potential progress. I was disappointed at notseeing you again at the 08 RITV.Your post sharing your situation shows it was a personal health issue, not a disregard for the RITV or Bluebirders as a whole. (remember, when left totheir own devices, if they do not know better, most will assume the worst)To the other birders reading this post, please contact Rick at BB. He seemed most open to any suggestions for other rally's or the next RITV.
I do not know the posters that are speaking unkind/unfair words about CCW. They may have been speaking in anger andfrustration. While it may or may not be justified, it is important that all sides are heard. I knew that you monitored the forum and hoped that you would respond. Others as well as myself have attempted tosupport RITV and BB. There is always two sides to every coin. I know that CCW did not build its reputation by ignoring their product or ignoring warranty work.
Existing Bluebirders acknowledge and appreciate your and CCW's efforts to bring out a new superior product in a market not conducive to new products. We understand that CCW has supported a product and addressed problems not of its own creation. That demonstrates integrity in the business market. We are blessed that CCW has a source of business, renovating buses to natural gas,that is not dependant on the RV market. That does not make your existence purely dependant on the RV industry. I feel there is still a market for a superior high line coach and BB is filling that market. Many existing Bluebirders cannot drop 1 million dollars on an RV. What we can provide is our support to CCW to keep the product on the road. We can sing the praises of your efforts and the unique qualities of your new and superior product. It is far better for existing Bluebirders to beat your drum that for you to have to beat it yourself.
There is not a company existing that does not have dissatisfied customers. I only had one small matter with service work I had done at BB ( Before CCW) and Mike took care of it in a fair and equitable manner. It required that we sit and talk and that he understand all that took place from my perception. That 5-10 minute meeting solved the entire matter. I would hope that any dissatisfied customers will contact BB or you and have that frank open discussion and also find resolution. Till then lets all work together to support BB and its efforts to provide a superior product in a less than ideal market
john redden
91PT-40
RIV Report? - mneshati2 - 10-29-2008 03:14
THANKS Ernie for your support!
Macy
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, erniecarpet@... wrote:
>
> Macy-- BRAVO!!
>
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Weatherford, Texas
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics ââ¬" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
RIV Report? - Pete Masterson - 10-29-2008 03:23
Well said, Macy.
My own experience with CCW (in Riverside) was positive. Yes, there
were a few weaknesses -- not unexpected in an operation that's quite
new -- but the staff actually doing the service work was intelligent
and worked very hard to fix the many items on my 'gripe' list as well
as perform the general service on the coach.
I will return to CCW for further work in the future, as needed.
(However, for general service, I've (finally) located a shop closer
to home -- not a reflection on CCW, but more the reality that
Riverside is about 500 miles away from my home base.)
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Mt. Airy, NC
On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:49 AM, Macy Neshati wrote:
> I have wrestled with my response for two full days now and I still
> don't know where to start. <snip>
RIV Report? - Glenn Allen - 10-29-2008 03:35
Macy,
I want to thank you and your team's commitment to the Wanderlodge.
Little is certain of our futures, but I have been pleased to see the
continued efforts of CCW in these difficult situations when all
others are retracting or closing. I trust that these bumps in the
road will soon smooth and our course for success will become more
certain.
I especially wish you success with your health. Thank you for
taking the time and sharing your perspective.
BEST Regards,
Glenn Allen
1986 PT-40
Marietta, GA
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Macy Neshati
wrote:
>
> I have wrestled with my response for two full days now and I still
don't
> know where to start. I will for sure start by thanking several
people
> including Curt Sprenger, Eric Perplies, David Brady, Ernie, and
Tom Warner
> for their support and to answer a simple question from Jim
> Riorden regarding the number of Blue Birds at the 2007 RIV it was
198 not
> the 400 that it has grown to by some accounts in the last few days
of these
> posts.
>
> Just as importantly, I want to apologize for my failure to attend
this years
> rally. It was my idea to move it, I thought it would be fun and a
change of
> pace, and last year at the RIV our informal poll of attendees
showed
> overwhelming support. However as this year has unfolded we have
been
> besieged by the worst economic downturn in recent history, a
credit crisis,
> a further blow as a result of the axle recall that we could not
have
> anticipated
> the death of our CEO's brother and business partner this past
April forcing
> Dale to become active in two additional business units, and capped
off with
> my personal health issues. As many of you know I have been
battling with
> Parkinsons for several years now and this past 90 days my symptoms
finally
> outran the medications ability to control them, forcing me to
spend several
> weeks with my doctors experimenting with new drugs and doses and
deciding
> which side effects I could live with for the relative relief
> they provided. Consequently as I was under physicians care at the
time I
> simply could not make it. Dale has been consumed in dealing with
the loss of
> his brother, consolidating the companies and dealing with issues I
would
> normally be responsible for and therefore was covering a pressing
business
> obligation for me.
>
> Not wishing to reveal too much of my or Dale's personal struggles
I asked
> Rick Clayton to simply apologize for our absence and hope that
people would
> understand that there may be years were circumstances simply won't
allow
> Dale and or I to attend. However the very vial and personal nature
of the
> attacks that have ensued over the last few days have compelled me
to share
> my situation more openly as the last thing I expected to do is to
> offend any of you by taking our lack of presence as a lack of
interest or
> desire to be with you.
>
> I must take very strong and pointed exception to Mr. Chaffin's
attacks first
> and foremost on behalf of the company and the hardworking people
who have
> labored against all odds to succeed in these adverse times, and
secondly on
> behalf of myself for being called a liar, not just once but
several times by
> Mr. Chaffin. In over 30 years as a business executive I have never
witnessed
> this lack of civility. How many of you think it is
> acceptable for someone who has a different perspective on a set of
> circumstances than you do, to go on a public forum and call you a
liar? Has
> the internet, emails, blogs and such dehumanized us to the point
that we
> find it OK to publicly slander and defame people? Does this forum
find this
> behavior acceptable?
>
> I will not dignify Mr. Chaffin's allegations and claims of
warranty on this
> site and in this public arena. I will state emphatically that we
have spent
> millions of dollars covering warranty claims on units that we felt
were
> legitimate and there are hundreds of you out there that know this
is true as
> you have been the beneficiaries of our warranty work. I have
dozens and
> dozens of emails from customers thanking us for our hard work on
> Their behalf and in many cases telling us we fixed the problem
when the
> previous owners couldn't.
>
> I do want to address many of the false allegations from several of
you that
> have appeared over the last few days: That we built all the M380
and LXI's
> and profited from them but won't spend the warranty money.
> FACT
> We did not build a single M380, and only one 450 LXI, and the
owners of the
> one we built reported to me as recently as a week ago that they
love it and
> have had great joy from it. However we have poured millions into
warranty
> coverage on legitimate warranty
>
> "They knew about the axle problem when they bought the company"
> FACT
> We did not have any knowledge of the axle problem when we bought
the
> company, this particular piece of slander is particularly
disturbing on many
> fronts, but simply put, we aren't stupid, we would never have
purchased the
> company knowing this, the impact on owner confidence, the costly
recall
> process, not counting the repair cost, and the delay in coming to
market
> based on the need to completely redesign and reengineer the unit
would have
> been more than enough to stop the deal. And we all know where that
> Would have left Wanderlodge and you all. Cerberus had stopped all
work on
> the Wanderlodges, and were ready to shut down the business had we
not bought
> it.
>
> Instead, we bought the business, redesigned the product to meet
weight
> requirements, and went right down the line to fix the historic
weak points,
> we engineered fixes for leaks, slides were a problem, went back to
HWH
> slides, inverters were a problem went to two Trace pure sine wave
4000 watt
> inverters, house wiring a problem, went to the industry standard
spyder
> controls, the list goes on and on.
>
> We were confronted with the front axle problem, forced Blue Bird
Body to the
> table, got them to file the NHTSA recall and have worked night and
day with
> owners to get their units as functional as possible. You want to
scoff and
> belittle the fix? Don't scoff at us, we are doing everything in
our power to
> fix a problem we didn't and would not have created.
>
> Many owners are thrilled with their reworked units, they have
ample cargo
> capacity, better handling due to a lower CG and a quieter less
vibrating
> generator installation. Are some unhappy, sure, again, not our
fault, not
> our problem but we have done everything in our power to make
things as right
> as we can. I truly and honestly don't understand how this issue is
turned on
> us in anger.
>
> Now to our future and the Wanderlodge's survival. Roughly 16
months ago when
> we bought the company it was widely believed in the industry that
the
> economy was stable, that the RV industry was continuing to grow
and would
> through at least 2009. If you don't believe me go look up last
years
> University of Michigan RV industry economic report, widely held as
the bible
> for the industry.
>
> Look were we sit today, two out of the three largest lenders to
the RV
> industry, Wachovia and GE are out of the business, National RV....
Bankrupt
> gone, Weekend Warrior, Bankrupt gone, several other smaller guys,
gone...
> Fleetwood, stock at .25 cents, delisted from the New York stock
exchange,
> nearly gone, Monaco, hanging on by a thread, their dealers have no
more
> floor plan money to buy anymore units, nothing is selling.
>
> RV sales..down 60% and what is selling is at massive discounts, no
one is
> making money. Ten Thousand RV's in San Diego, gone, La Mesa,
closing and
> consolidating stores.
>
> Why don't we have dealers?? The credit crisis has left them with
no floor
> plan money. Simply put they can't afford to buy a stock unit.
>
> So here is the greatest contradiction I have heard yet, "We don't
want to
> see
> CCW fail"
>
> "But I won't buy a new Blue Bird because what if CCW fails"......
anyone
> else
> see the flaw here?
>
> If we don't sell RV's how do we survive? if you want to see us
survive,
> you need to buy Blue Birds... If you don't buy Blue Birds, you not
only
> guarantee our demise... You are responsible for it.
>
> Someone else steps in to criticize us for being late with the 2009
RV for
> the
> FMCA, and for the poor showing our then dealer made of coaches.
>
> The axle issue came up and forced us to redesign the RV to provide
a product
> with respectable cargo capacity on a legal front end. Do you know
the work
> that goes into that kind of engineering feat? While juggling a
recall? What
> you should be proud of is that your brand has new owners that
refused to
> build or ship a product that wasn't engineered or built correctly,
even if
> it missed the whole show.
>
> Our company has poured double digit millions into this Brand to
keep the
> doors open what has that meant to you? So you could get warranty
on product
> we didn't build and wouldn't have built or shipped as designed, to
perform
> recall work for defects in design we didn't design on product we
didn't
> build, to redesign and reengineer a Blue Bird Product to make you
and us
> proud, we decided to trudge on through the worst economy in recent
memory
> and a credit crunch like nothing we have ever seen, and we
> built a beautiful Premier XL. But Mr. Chaffin goes on and on about
where to
> get them fixed and blasts us for not having dealers. what if we
hadn't
> bought the company? No telling how the recall would have gone, who
would
> have done your warranty. How many of you have benefited from us
being here
> to fix your units both in Riverside and Fort Valley? To buy parts
from us?
> Have we had turn over? Sure, people will get scared as a company
slows down
> and has to right size in this type of economic crisis and some
will jump
> ship, is that something to go online and blast us for?
>
> And on a final false assertion by Mr. Chaffin, the 2006 we brought
to
> Branson would have to be parked by the new owner, not useable.
>
> FACT
> It has had the recall done, is fully functional has outstanding
front end
> weight numbers and wouldn't have to be parked in anyone's driveway
other
> than to restock for the next journey.
>
> I have said enough, maybe too much....we have done all we can, we
fixed the
> Design problems, enhanced the product with top of the line
features, provide
> a better ride than any Prevost, build a tougher more rugged
chassis than
> Prevost or Newell, enhanced our warranty by going to a 12 year
chassis,
> structure and body warranty and provide better craftsmanship and
> construction than a fiberglass Newell.
>
> The rest is up to you. No company, no matter how well financed,
stays in
> business if the product isn't selling, not because they run out of
cash, it
> just isn't good judgment.
>
> For now, we are tightening our belts and weathering the storm. We
have a
> beautiful 2009 (RV 02) for sale, Our first 2009, as many saw at
Branson is a
> 1 1/2 bath that was purchased by George and Vel Kistler. We are so
grateful
> for their support and loyalty.
>
> We do understand the importance and the value of a good rally. But
given the
> unique nature of the economic crisis we are faced with, the almost
daily
> business failures, and the need to find ways to weather this storm
we made
> judgment calls as to where to place priorities, we didn't mean to
slight
> anyone, and we will work hard to return next years rally to its
previous
> glory.
>
> But I stand by our decisions this year and ask you
> to consider walking a mile in the other guys shoe before lashing
out. It is
> seldom as simple and as clear cut as it seems looking in.
> As always, travel safe
> Macy
>
>
>
> Macy
> Macy Neshati
> Vice President, Sales & Marketing
> Complete Coach Works & Blue Bird Coachworks
> Office: 951-684-9585 Cell: 951-836-6525 Fax: 951-684-9585
> Visit Our Websites: http://www.completecoach.com
&http://www.bluebirdcoachworks.com
>