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NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-17-2015 23:34
It appears some do-gooder convinced NADA to no longer list Wanderlodges. Before everyone yells "hurray" I think we should consider what we're losing in the NADA listings. NADA lists information on all Wanderlodges built from 1966 thru 2009. They list every configuration of Wanderlodge ever built, form side isle, to rear bath, to all the lengths, all the options, and even all the original suggested retail prices. Want to know what a 1966 Side Dinette Forward Control originally sold for? Look it up on NADA. It sold for $27K. We should stockpile this information before NADA removes it from their website! Apparently NADA was convinced to remove Wanderlodge because their value formulas don't mirror actual dealer sales prices. A better approach would have been to have the dealers inform NADA of the selling prices. Isn't this the way NADA is supposed to work? Now we're losing the data and banks will have a more difficult job establishing values for loans. Thanks for nothing!
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - cmillsap - 04-18-2015 00:39
It appears that this was done by Randy Dupree and Parliament in an effort to remove the low NADA values of older coaches as compared to owner's perceived value and higher asking prices of those coaches.
I suspect they are correct as regards the older units. I believe that NADA just reduced their values a certain percentage each year which has caused the older model's NADA value to suffer.
However, this may be a disservice to later model BB owners. After doing about 5 minutes of research on the NADA website, it appears to me that later models of the LXi, M450 and several models of the M380s have a NADA value higher than the current marketplace pricing. This is especially evident in year 2000 and up Wanderlodges. I offer for example 3 late model Wanderlodges listed for sale on Randy's BBBB website. 1) 2000 LXi slide @ $122,500 with NADA average retail value @ $182,500. 2) 2003 LXi 2 slide listed @ $160,000 with NADA average retail value @$278,650. 3) 2005 M450 3 slide listed @$170,000 with NADA average retail value @ $260,100,
Whether removing the NADA values on these later model Bluebirds will help or harm their marketplace pricing, only time will tell. I liked the NADA average retail value of $182,200 placed on my LXi which is considerably more than what BBBB has been selling them for. I believe NADA values have helped keep the prices of late model Bluebirds up.
Further, I do not understand why Parliament would agree with doing this as they mostly deal with late model Bluebirds.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-18-2015 01:51
Very true Chuck. No dealer wants an independent appraiser valuing late model birds at a high value. This only makes it harder for the dealer to talk the seller into a lower asking price. And, likewise at the older end of the vintage scale where NADA underestimates the values. Here it becomes harder to convince a buyer that the bird is worth more.
The dealer in question makes a flat rate for every bird sold. He doesn't care what the selling price is only that a sale is made. The lower the selling price the easier it is to make the sale. Suddenly it's become very clear why NADA had to go away! This has nothing to do with maintaining or increasing bird values. LOL! It's totally self serving!
Perhaps we should lobby NADA to retain the Wanderlodge???
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - cmillsap - 04-18-2015 15:21
I spoke with Ken Robertson, one of the owners of Parliament this morning about their agreement with Randy Dupree to remove Wanderlodge valuations from the NADA website and book listings.
He has agreed to take a second look at their decision which was based primarily on input from Randy Dupree. If this stands, Randy is in a major position to set Wanderlodge values. Given that he is in the business of selling Wanderlodges, do you want him deciding what your bus is worth or would you rather have a neutral third party void of a conflict of interest valuing it?
If you are one who believes that removing the NADA values will be detrimental to the valuation of your bus, I suggest that all late model Wanderlodge owners call Ken @ 888-571-5755 and voice your opinion.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - mpierce - 04-18-2015 17:25
How does NADA help the value of my 1990 BB? They list value at about $13,000, and I bought it for $55,000? Others selling from $40 to $60k? How does NADA having it in the teens help value?
I just checked. 1990. 11k low retail, 14k average retail.
Under specs, says gas engine
Under floor plans, none available.
Doesn't sound like it is very helpful.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - cmillsap - 04-18-2015 18:25
(04-18-2015 17:25)mpierce Wrote: How does NADA help the value of my 1990 BB? They list value at about $13,000, and I bought it for $55,000? Others selling from $40 to $60k? How does NADA having it in the teens help value?
I just checked. 1990. 11k low retail, 14k average retail.
Under specs, says gas engine
Under floor plans, none available.
Doesn't sound like it is very helpful.
I do understand that there are two sides to a coin. NADA values on a Wanderlodge more than 20 years old means that the original invoice has been book depreciated over those 20 years. Some have book depreciated to near zero value. That doesn’t mean that the bus is not worth more than NADA says it is.
You are correct that NADA is not very helpful in valuing a bus that is more than 20 years old. Nor is it that detrimental in its valuation of older coaches. The value of your bus is by and large dependent upon your care and upkeep of it regardless of what NADA states. Condition is everything and can cause the value of a coach to vary significantly.
The best way to value your coach is to have it appraised which will allow you to obtain fair value insurance on it and assist you in setting the price if and when you decide to sell it. That is the best way to accomplish the fair market value of any bus more than 20 years old.
On the other hand, most of the NADA values of later model Wanderlodges that are less than 20 years old are fair and support the owner’s ability to obtain agreed value insurance at a fair value level. Once these later model units reach book depreciation maturity at about 20 years of age, their owners will have to resort to an appraisal to establish fair market value also.
For example, my 2000 LXi has a NADA average retail value of $182,200 which is far above what I paid for it. That value allows my insurance company to happily provide me with a $150,000 agreed value insurance policy on it.
So as you can see, removing the NADA values on all Wanderlodges is not in my and other late model owner’s best interests. Perhaps a better solution would have been to have NADA drop off valuations of wanderlodges more than 20 years old and continue to value later models to that point.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - mpierce - 04-18-2015 18:48
I understand. I was disappointed NO info available on the site, even wrong, such as "gas" engine.
I had the appraisal done. Good for 3 years for insurance, then need to be done again.
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-18-2015 22:36
(04-18-2015 15:21)cmillsap Wrote: I spoke with Ken Robertson, one of the owners of Parliament this morning about their agreement with Randy Dupree to remove Wanderlodge valuations from the NADA website and book listings.
He has agreed to take a second look at their decision which was based primarily on input from Randy Dupree. If this stands, Randy is in a major position to set Wanderlodge values. Given that he is in the business of selling Wanderlodges, do you want him deciding what your bus is worth or would you rather have a neutral third party void of a conflict of interest valuing it?
If you are one who believes that removing the NADA values will be detrimental to the valuation of your bus, I suggest that all late model Wanderlodge owners call Ken @ 888-571-5755 and voice your opinion.
Good going Chuck. I'm certain owners of late model coaches will chime in and call Ken. Ken's a fair man and will listen to reason. Where this is headed is very scary, and that's Dupree and McGinnis as the final and only arbiters of Wanderlodge value. It's striking to me that the folks over on wog can be so blind and naive. Don't they realize the incredible influence that these two will have on setting values? Woggers, WAKE UP!
Of course it screws up financing, of course it screws up insurance policies, of course it puts too much pricing influence into the hands of a few. So it may be that we have the 80/20 rule and that rule may be 100/00 in 10 years time; well, why not let it play out? Let the owners of late model coaches enjoy that period of time and the benefits it brings. Don't let self serving agendas steal that away from you!
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - rrueckwald - 04-19-2015 00:23
I am a little concerned with the other side of the ethics question. For insurance, the only reason an owner would want to have a high NADA well over what they paid is to make a quick buck if they had a total loss. Is that appropriate? For financing, the only reason an owner would want to have a high NADA well over what they paid is to short the bank on the amount of equity in the bus. Is that appropriate? Neither in my book.
Having too low a value is obviously a disservice to owners of those busses.
As they say across the pond, "This is a sticky wicket!"
RE: NADA Wanderlodge Listings - davidbrady - 04-19-2015 11:24
NADA supports coach values. Without it we have nothing. Newell isn't listed in NADA but they have their ongoing enterprise supporting prices. Same with all the Prevost converters. Each and every one of these converters does an excellent job of maintaining values. None will undersell their new buyers in the used market. They simply won't do that to their committed long time customers. Without NADA and without a Blue Bird factory we have nothing. There's no current day brokerage or dealer network supporting values. My prediction is values of the late model birds will drop off a cliff because the primary long standing arbiter of value, the Wanderlodge factory is gone, and now the secondary long standing arbiter of value may be gone, NADA. Brokers can now educate buyers and sellers to accept new price anchors for their buses, and I'm pretty sure these price anchors will be lower because this will generate more revenue for the brokers. Remember though, as the bottom drops out on prices so do the vendors, the service centers, and the general quality and upkeep of the birds. More folks buy who can't afford upkeep and everyone suffers. It's actually an honor to have Wanderlodge represented in NADA. It took years of hard work and commitment to get into NADA. Imagine the free advertising that NADA provides. How many buyers peruse NADA looking for a brand only to stumble upon Wanderlodge? They dig a little deeper and the find this rich brand, Wanderlodge. They don't know about the forums - nobody but us knows about the forums. Only after becoming serious inquirers do they stumble upon the forums. Other avenues have already piqued their Wanderlodge interest and NADA is primary. Lose this and we all lose. I simply can't imagine "asking" to be removed; that makes no sense. Call Ken and lobby to have this reversed.
Chuck, I'm sorry you were compelled to leave wog. I can empathize with your decision. When that clique turns against you it's very tough. I've been there friend.