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Are budget RVs really possible? - Printable Version +- Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum (http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com) +-- Forum: Yahoo Groups Archive (/forumdisplay.php?fid=61) +--- Forum: WanderlodgeForum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=63) +--- Thread: Are budget RVs really possible? (/showthread.php?tid=573) Pages: 1 2 |
Are budget RVs really possible? - Jim March - 05-10-2005 17:34 beancounterman wrote: > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land. That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there is. But...damn. Lemme show you two items: http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/4/2/9/78683729.htm That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp, made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import, $50k. And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies, aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained - 30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k: http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap? Jim Are budget RVs really possible? - Jim Owens - 05-10-2005 18:42 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March > beancounterman wrote: > > > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. > > -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- > > You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable > comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land. > > That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there is ... but damn! Jim, This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site. Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a few concerns about tank capacities, etc. Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand. Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily, nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a junkyard)! I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long. Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas) Lake of the Ozarks, MO Are budget RVs really possible? - Jim March - 05-10-2005 19:02 Jim Owens wrote: > Jim, > > This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site. > Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion > based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a > few concerns about tank capacities, etc. > > Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on > low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the > M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought > was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some > thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building > coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost > coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing > capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated > with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a > coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand. > > Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do > depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more > typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts > considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is > about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily, > nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a > junkyard)! > > I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long. > > Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas) > Lake of the Ozarks, MO Yeah, I can understand all that. BUT. A lot of the marketing behind the current crop of sub-$100k (hell, even sub-$200k) units is based on people either being idiots or having low expectations as to serious durability/performance. They've mostly gotten away from wood frames (not entirely!) but you still see critters that don't have enough suspension/axle loading for the weight, that handle like pigs, that are particle board carpentry inside, "battery charger" with no brains that boils batteries over and on and on and on. Only a moron would drop $150k into some of this crap. Right now a lot of the people attracted to used Wanderlodges (esp. steel-bodied critters) are NOT attracted to "luxury" but to the serious durability factor...the industrial-grade suspensions, drivetrains and frames, and so on. BUT - even if you have an '86 FC35 let's say, and in cherry condition, you've got two problems: milage (mainly due to the steel body and inefficient 3208) and the steel body CAN rust if the paint isn't maintained...something more difficult for a fulltimer or somebody that has to do outside storage. Between 1990 and 1994 Safari had a really good idea for a "working man's ClassA" - the original Trek 28'. This was a puller using an Isuzu four banger turbodiesel puller. It was basically a small cargo truck frame turned into an RV. The frame was aluminum, the skin was fiberglas. It worked VERY well and got 14mpg or better even with an automatic - if they'd done a manual 6sp overdrive version like many of the small commercial trucks are they could have hit 17mpg and 20 wouldn't have been out of the question. Do something similar but in a ClassC, have an option for a small garage in back for those who want to do mobile repairs/shop stuff or keep bikes in, you'd have one HELL of a good rig. NOT a "brothel on wheels" by any means but a good functional unit under $100k that will LAST and that you can afford fuel for. Jim Are budget RVs really possible? - Mike Hohnstein - 05-10-2005 21:53 Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the product. Design the product and set up the manufacturing procedures. Oh, you will need some kind of distribution net work or a way to get your production to the end users. Oh, it's a motor vehicle that people are going to ride in, I'll bet there are some hoops that Joan Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety hand wringers group will want you to jump through, for the children of course. Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy some trucks, and some materials to build the coaches with, wow, that's a lot of stuff to pay for before I sell a damn thing. Better go to the banker and see if he believes I can do this thing, that seems like such a piece of cake. You mean they have to look good so people will buy them? Doesn't any one see that they are FUNCTIONAL? and priced real well? I don't get it, why am I bankrupt? Get the picture Jim? Ever been to Elkhart IN? The place if full of great RV Ideas, most sink, some swim. Winnebagos been swimming a long time, it's not a product I would want, but there are a lot of people who are content with their stuff and those products made by them and their peers. You need to get busy and build what you want and maybe you might be able to make a couple on the side and use the "profits" for your retirement. I went through the home built deal a couple of times, still have one of the rigs, I could have bought used product for less money but I got the EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me. Mike Hohnstein Germantown, WI 83FC35 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim March To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:34 AM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible? beancounterman wrote: > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land. That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there is. But...damn. Lemme show you two items: http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/4/2/9/78683729.htm That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp, made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import, $50k. And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies, aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained - 30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k: http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Are budget RVs really possible? - randydupree - 05-10-2005 23:29 i agree.the cost of a new prevost conversion shell is over 350,000 bucks.hell,the best peterbilt with all the toys in around $100,000. i hate to lose the front area,but i just would have to buy the truck,if i was in the market for new!!randydupree93wb ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim March To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible? beancounterman wrote: > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land. That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there is. But...damn. Lemme show you two items: http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/4/2/9/78683729.htm That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp, made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import, $50k. And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies, aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained - 30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k: http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them couldn't build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the rump off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Are budget RVs really possible? - randydupree - 05-10-2005 23:40 i don't know if you guys remember this,but BB converted a mci 45' bus shell some 10 years ago.they could not build a 45' BB because of the weight.story was that mci was for sale and BB was the buyer.so they were going to use the mci shell for the 45' wanderlodges.the deal fell through for some reason,so only one coach was ever built.now,volvo owns prevost,volvo owns BB,why would volvo allow BB to build bus shells for conversion?when they already have the best shell in the market?i know what i would do! randydupree93wb ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Owens To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:42 AM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Are budget RVs really possible? --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March > beancounterman wrote: > > > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. > > -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- > > You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable > comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with land. > > That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there is ... but damn! Jim, This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site. Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a few concerns about tank capacities, etc. Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand. Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily, nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a junkyard)! I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long. Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas) Lake of the Ozarks, MO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Are budget RVs really possible? - beancounterman - 05-11-2005 00:33 Where is the filet mignon for $1 a pound? We all want it, so why can't we have it? I'm sorry, but the real answer to this question is not what we are looking for. The lessons of the M380 vs. the old LXi should be taken to heart. The equation is simple: cost (parts and labor) + overhead + profit = wholesale cost. Add the dealer's markup and you get the retail price. You can see on the SEC website that the profit margins for public RV companies are quite narrow, and even negative from time to time. Dealer margins are typically in the five to ten percent range. So the problem is not excessive profit margins. So the question is: where do you find the savings to lower the price? Assuming efficient operations at both the manufacturering and dealer levels (I would argue that competition insures that most successful businesses are efficient, and punishes and ultimately eliminates the inefficient), the costs of parts or labor must be reduced. Ultimately, reducing the price leads to compromises that lower "quality." An RV is a tough product from a manufacturing standpoint because we demand of a lot of content. You know the story--a motorhome is a house that also goes down the road at 70 m.p.h. In addition, production volumes are low, relative, for example, to the auto industry. So the economies of scale are not there, especially in the higher end of the market. An RV manuafacter cannot build 50 prototypes of the 2007 model and test them for 100,000 miles each. The sad news is that, as much as we would love to be able to buy a top quality new motor home for $100,000, that kind of a budget is going to result in an RV that is compromised in a thousand ways to get to the target price. Think $60,000 mobile home on an inexpensive (crude) but high GVWR truck chassis. Or looking at the issue from a different direction, if it was possible to build the $100,000 unit as the high quality unit we are asking for, someone would already be doing it very successfully. Sometimes we need to recognize that the difficulties of resolving champagne tastes on beer budgets. --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, randydupree > i don't know if you guys remember this,but BB converted a mci 45' bus shell some 10 years ago.they could not build a 45' BB because of the weight.story was that mci was for sale and BB was the buyer.so they were going to use the mci shell for the 45' wanderlodges.the deal fell through for some reason,so only one coach was ever built.now,volvo owns prevost,volvo owns BB,why would volvo allow BB to build bus shells for conversion?when they already have the best shell in the market?i know what i would do! randydupree93wb > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Owens > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:42 AM > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Are budget RVs really possible? > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Jim March > > beancounterman wrote: > > > > > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, > and > > > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. > > > > -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- > > > > You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable > > comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with > land. > > > > That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure > there is ... but damn! > > Jim, > > This issue came up a while back on the original wanderlodge.org site. > Someone had posted images and a description of a late model conversion > based on one of Blue Bird's commercial chassis. Nicely done but with a > few concerns about tank capacities, etc. > > Consensus at that time was that Blue Bird's business plan is based on > low volume sales of high-end coaches in the $750K+ range with the > M380's thrown in to compete with Monaco, et.al. (which some thought > was a mistake - diluting the brand image, in other words.) Yet some > thought that BB could earn more revenue in the long-run building > coaches more in line with the FC's and SP's -> selling lower cost > coaches in enough volume to actually make money. Manufacturing > capability and flexibility issues combined with high costs associated > with manufacturing complexity (too many parts & processes) limit a > coach builder's response to changing market conditions and demand. > > Wanderlodges are great creations with a loyal following. They do > depreciate in value over time but that offers those of us with a more > typical net worth to get in on the fun. Another series of posts > considered to total number of 'Birds built. Seems to me the total is > about 6,000 coaches total - they really are rare 'Birds. But, happily, > nearly every coach ever built is still out there (and NOT in a > junkyard)! > > I'll get down off my soapbox now. Thanks for staying around this long. > > Jim Owens 77 FC33SB (Gas) > Lake of the Ozarks, MO > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Are budget RVs really possible? - Stephen Birtles - 05-11-2005 00:58 --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "beancounterman" > Where is the filet mignon for $1 a pound? We all want it, so why can't we have it? > > >that easy raise the cows yourself Stephen 77fc35 Are budget RVs really possible? - Jim March - 05-11-2005 02:34 Mike, I hear you, but remember I've shown you a drivetrain/frame/suspension/cab/controls package that *retails* under $50k brand new. Buy wholesale, figure at least a good chunk less. Not saying it's "easy" mind you, not at all. But it's doable. Jim Mike Hohnstein wrote: > Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the > product. Design the product and set up the manufacturing procedures. > Oh, you will need some kind of distribution net work or a way to get > your production to the end users. Oh, it's a motor vehicle that > people are going to ride in, I'll bet there are some hoops that Joan > Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety hand wringers group > will want you to jump through, for the children of course. > Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy some trucks, > and some materials to build the coaches with, wow, that's a lot of > stuff to pay for before I sell a damn thing. Better go to the banker > and see if he believes I can do this thing, that seems like such a > piece of cake. You mean they have to look good so people will buy > them? Doesn't any one see that they are FUNCTIONAL? and priced real > well? I don't get it, why am I bankrupt? Get the picture Jim? Ever > been to Elkhart IN? The place if full of great RV Ideas, most sink, > some swim. Winnebagos been swimming a long time, it's not a product I > would want, but there are a lot of people who are content with their > stuff and those products made by them and their peers. You need to get > busy and build what you want and maybe you might be able to make a > couple on the side and use the "profits" for your retirement. I went > through the home built deal a couple of times, still have one of the > rigs, I could have bought used product for less money but I got the > EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me. > Mike Hohnstein > Germantown, WI > 83FC35 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim March > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:34 AM > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Are budget RVs really possible? > > > beancounterman wrote: > > > I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and > > the "cheapening" of the 450 LXi, with some interest. > > -sniiiip much discussion of coaches costing $800,000plus- > > You know...there's just got to be a way of producing a good durable > comfortable rig that doesn't cost more than a good-sized house with > land. > > That's not saying there isn't a "millionaire's market", I'm sure there > is. But...damn. > > Lemme show you two items: > > > http://www.trucktraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/4/2/9/78683729.htm > > That's a brand new commercial truck chassis with cab, diesel, 220hp, > made for HEAVY loads, auto tranny, good fuel economy. Japanese import, > $50k. > > And here's a group building travel trailers with all the goodies, > aluminum tube frame and aluminum skin, complete and self contained - > 30ft long by 102" body no slideout goes for $30k: > > http://www.santektrailers.com/salesoptions1.html > > Now can somebody explain to me why Santek or somebody like them > couldn't > build "industrial strength ClassCs" under $100k that would kick the > rump > off of idiotic Winnabago or similar crap? > > Jim Are budget RVs really possible? - George Lowry - 05-11-2005 04:13 Mike, You have touched on just some of the problems. Everyone wants a Cadillac for the price of a used Yugo. Remember that the average RV is used for two weeks a year plus a couple of weekends and only gets about 2,000 miles on it per year. That makes the value go down as compared to price. I have, for sale, a GM 4106 coach that is, in many ways, superior to the '95 Wanderlodge we have, however, finding people who want and can afford such a coach is difficult. Most do not have the cash to buy and the financial industry is completely ignorant of anything that is not in KBB making loans next to impossible. They way most dealers are able to sell is to give recourse to the lending institution, meaning that if the buyer defaults on the loan, the dealer will repossess and make the loan good, the dealer standing all the loss. If you are established enough, you can handle the volume. The RV industry has done a good job of brainwashing the public to think that ONLY vehicles produced in a factory can be quality. The startup costs of such a factory and distribution are, as you pointed out, daunting. George Lowry '95 WBDA 4203 & GM 4106 (for sale) Spearfish, SD Mike Hohnstein wrote: > Sure, I can go with that. First, start a company to do make the > product. Design the product and set up the manufacturing > procedures. Oh, you will need some kind of distribution net work > or a way to get your production to the end users. Oh, it's a motor > vehicle that people are going to ride in, I'll bet there are some > hoops that Joan Claybrook and her friends at the highway safety > hand wringers group will want you to jump through, for the children > of course. Let's see, how many will we need to build, uh better buy > some trucks, and some materials to build the coaches with, wow, > that's a lot of stuff to pay for before I sell a damn thing. > Better go to the banker and see if he believes I can do this thing, > that seems like such a piece of cake. You mean they have to look > good so people will buy them? Doesn't any one see that they are > FUNCTIONAL? and priced real well? I don't get it, why am I > bankrupt? Get the picture Jim? Ever been to Elkhart IN? The > place if full of great RV Ideas, most sink, some swim. Winnebagos > been swimming a long time, it's not a product I would want, but > there are a lot of people who are content with their stuff and > those products made by them and their peers. You need to get busy > and build what you want and maybe you might be able to make a > couple on the side and use the "profits" for your retirement. I > went through the home built deal a couple of times, still have one > of the rigs, I could have bought used product for less money but I > got the EXPERIENCE, and that's worth a lot to me. Mike Hohnstein > Germantown, WI 83FC35 > |