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+--- Thread: Transmission temerature question? (/showthread.php?tid=5780)
Transmission temerature question? - thomas_sorrentino - 10-03-2007 12:44
I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have a
separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is warmed
up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start sitting
at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving again
it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans. pan
with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the grill
over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other temp.
are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed it,
I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is it a
sign something is not right?
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38 8V92
Bedford Hills, NY
Transmission temerature question? - Rob Robinson - 10-03-2007 13:22
Hi Tom. My tranny also starts out at 170 when first on the road and if I get
it up higher it will go back to 170 if I am going downhill or put the fan
override on, otherwise it generally runs somewhere above 170 but below 200.
I have never seen it at 230 but have got it up to 210 once while using the
retarder. How are the plans for your rally going? Wish I could be there.
Especially since Brisket Boy is attending.
On 03/10/2007, thomas_sorrentino
>
> I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have a
> separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is warmed
> up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start sitting
> at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving again
> it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans. pan
> with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
> trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the grill
> over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other temp.
> are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed it,
> I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is it a
> sign something is not right?
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38 8V92
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
>
>
--
Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
94 WLWB
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transmission temerature question? - Leroy Eckert - 10-03-2007 14:06
Tom:
My trans temp runs at 170 most of the time. I have a retarder temp gauge and it
runs 230 normal. While using the retarder the trans temp can get reach 200 and
the retarder to 260 or more. It always retreats to the original temps.
I am trying to understand why it would hold steady at 170 for miles and never
return to that point. If it always ran hotter or had creeping heat one could
suspect the trans cooler or possibly a restricted water flow to the cooler,
but....it stays cool initially. What is your water temperature doing?
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
Royale Conversion
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas_sorrentino
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Transmission temerature question?
I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have a
separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is warmed
up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start sitting
at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving again
it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans. pan
with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the grill
over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other temp.
are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed it,
I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is it a
sign something is not right?
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38 8V92
Bedford Hills, NY
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transmission temerature question? - thomas_sorrentino - 10-04-2007 03:43
Rob and Leroy,
Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter than it
should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water temperature
is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure out
why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
well. Any other suggestions?
Rob,
The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is perfect,
fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has a
rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent Boy
etc..
Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>
> I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have
a
> separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
warmed
> up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
sitting
> at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving
again
> it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans.
pan
> with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
> trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the
grill
> over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other
temp.
> are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed
it,
> I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is
it a
> sign something is not right?
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38 8V92
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
Transmission temerature question? - Leroy Eckert - 10-04-2007 04:40
You might try to test the sender for its ohm range. Unfortunately, I do not know
the ohm range for the 140-320 gauge. It may have somethng to do with the
grounding of the threads.(ie.. if pipe dope was used to install) You can try to
contact Joe Federsel at JFedersel.tflx.com and see it he can give you the range
for that gauge sender.The gauge part number should be 9153475 and the sender
number should be 52320S002(mfg sender code E) There is a trouble shooting guide
at http://www.teleflexmarine.com but I cannot find the thing at this moment. It may
have been moved from its prior location.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
Royale Conversion
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas_sorrentino
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
Rob and Leroy,
Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter than it
should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water temperature
is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure out
why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
well. Any other suggestions?
Rob,
The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is perfect,
fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has a
rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent Boy
etc..
Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>
> I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have
a
> separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
warmed
> up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
sitting
> at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving
again
> it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans.
pan
> with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
> trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the
grill
> over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other
temp.
> are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed
it,
> I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is
it a
> sign something is not right?
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38 8V92
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transmission temerature question? - thomas_sorrentino - 10-04-2007 04:57
Leroy,
When I stopped last night the gauge said 200. I checked the tranny
sump with the infrared and it said 200. So I think the gauge is
accurate. I'll double check it a few more times.
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
>
> You might try to test the sender for its ohm range. Unfortunately,
I do not know the ohm range for the 140-320 gauge. It may have
somethng to do with the grounding of the threads.(ie.. if pipe dope
was used to install) You can try to contact Joe Federsel at
JFedersel.tflx.com and see it he can give you the range for that
gauge sender.The gauge part number should be 9153475 and the sender
number should be 52320S002(mfg sender code E) There is a trouble
shooting guide at http://www.teleflexmarine.com but I cannot find the thing
at this moment. It may have been moved from its prior location.
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> Royale Conversion
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: thomas_sorrentino
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
>
>
> Rob and Leroy,
>
> Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter
than it
> should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water
temperature
> is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure
out
> why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
> well. Any other suggestions?
>
> Rob,
> The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is
perfect,
> fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has
a
> rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
> And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent
Boy
> etc..
> Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>
> >
> > I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I
have
> a
> > separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
> warmed
> > up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
> sitting
> > at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get
moving
> again
> > it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the
trans.
> pan
> > with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed
the
> > trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed
the
> grill
> > over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All
other
> temp.
> > are normal. This may have always been like this and I just
noticed
> it,
> > I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this?
Is
> it a
> > sign something is not right?
> >
> > Tom Sorrentino
> > 1987 PT38 8V92
> > Bedford Hills, NY
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Transmission temerature question? - Leroy Eckert - 10-04-2007 04:59
Tom:
If your gauge happens to be indexed 100-320 look in the forum files under
Teleflex gauge and sender cross and see if it fits your system. I would still
try to contact Joe Federsel. If no response, West Marine has helped me find the
answer on these issues.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
Royale Conversion
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas_sorrentino
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
Rob and Leroy,
Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter than it
should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water temperature
is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure out
why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
well. Any other suggestions?
Rob,
The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is perfect,
fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has a
rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent Boy
etc..
Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>
> I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I have
a
> separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
warmed
> up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
sitting
> at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get moving
again
> it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the trans.
pan
> with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed the
> trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed the
grill
> over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All other
temp.
> are normal. This may have always been like this and I just noticed
it,
> I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this? Is
it a
> sign something is not right?
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38 8V92
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transmission temerature question? - Don Bradner - 10-04-2007 05:13
The big issue is where the temperature sender is located. According to
AllisonTransOpMan.pdf, which I downloaded I think from one of these forums:
Sump Fluid, Minimum Continuous 100°F (40°C)
Sump Fluid, Typical Continuous 200°F (93°C)
Converter Out Fluid, Maximum 300°F (149°C)
Retarder Out Fluid, Maximum 330°F (165°C)
Sump Fluid, Maximum 250°F (121°C)
Based on your sump reading, it appears you are dead-on normal. Stop worrying,
enjoy traveling!
Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Posting today by satellite from Falcon, Colorado (East of Colorado Springs)
On 10/4/2007 at 4:57 PM thomas_sorrentino wrote:
>Leroy,
>
>When I stopped last night the gauge said 200. I checked the tranny
>sump with the infrared and it said 200. So I think the gauge is
>accurate. I'll double check it a few more times.
>
>Tom Sorrentino
>1987 PT38
>Bedford Hills, NY
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
>
>>
>> You might try to test the sender for its ohm range. Unfortunately,
>I do not know the ohm range for the 140-320 gauge. It may have
>somethng to do with the grounding of the threads.(ie.. if pipe dope
>was used to install) You can try to contact Joe Federsel at
>JFedersel.tflx.com and see it he can give you the range for that
>gauge sender.The gauge part number should be 9153475 and the sender
>number should be 52320S002(mfg sender code E) There is a trouble
>shooting guide at http://www.teleflexmarine.com but I cannot find the thing
>at this moment. It may have been moved from its prior location.
>> Leroy Eckert
>> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
>> Niceville, FL
>> Royale Conversion
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: thomas_sorrentino
>> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
>> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
>>
>>
>> Rob and Leroy,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter
>than it
>> should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water
>temperature
>> is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure
>out
>> why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
>> well. Any other suggestions?
>>
>> Rob,
>> The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is
>perfect,
>> fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has
>a
>> rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
>> And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent
>Boy
>> etc..
>> Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
>>
>> Tom Sorrentino
>> 1987 PT38
>> Bedford Hills, NY
>>
>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>>
>> >
>> > I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I
>have
>> a
>> > separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
>> warmed
>> > up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
>> sitting
>> > at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get
>moving
>> again
>> > it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the
>trans.
>> pan
>> > with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed
>the
>> > trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed
>the
>> grill
>> > over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All
>other
>> temp.
>> > are normal. This may have always been like this and I just
>noticed
>> it,
>> > I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this?
>Is
>> it a
>> > sign something is not right?
>> >
>> > Tom Sorrentino
>> > 1987 PT38 8V92
>> > Bedford Hills, NY
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Transmission temerature question? - Leroy Eckert - 10-04-2007 05:14
Sounds like some snooping around the cooler or the associated hoses is where to
start. If yours is like mine there is a water directing maniford just inside the
lower portion of the radiator on the street side. Let us know what you find for
the history books.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors
Niceville, FL
Tomorrow Dawsonville, GA
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas_sorrentino
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
Leroy,
When I stopped last night the gauge said 200. I checked the tranny
sump with the infrared and it said 200. So I think the gauge is
accurate. I'll double check it a few more times.
Tom Sorrentino
1987 PT38
Bedford Hills, NY
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
>
> You might try to test the sender for its ohm range. Unfortunately,
I do not know the ohm range for the 140-320 gauge. It may have
somethng to do with the grounding of the threads.(ie.. if pipe dope
was used to install) You can try to contact Joe Federsel at
JFedersel.tflx.com and see it he can give you the range for that
gauge sender.The gauge part number should be 9153475 and the sender
number should be 52320S002(mfg sender code E) There is a trouble
shooting guide at http://www.teleflexmarine.com but I cannot find the thing
at this moment. It may have been moved from its prior location.
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> Royale Conversion
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: thomas_sorrentino
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
>
>
> Rob and Leroy,
>
> Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter
than it
> should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water
temperature
> is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure
out
> why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
> well. Any other suggestions?
>
> Rob,
> The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is
perfect,
> fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has
a
> rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
> And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent
Boy
> etc..
> Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
>
> Tom Sorrentino
> 1987 PT38
> Bedford Hills, NY
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>
> >
> > I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I
have
> a
> > separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
> warmed
> > up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
> sitting
> > at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get
moving
> again
> > it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the
trans.
> pan
> > with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed
the
> > trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed
the
> grill
> > over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All
other
> temp.
> > are normal. This may have always been like this and I just
noticed
> it,
> > I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this?
Is
> it a
> > sign something is not right?
> >
> > Tom Sorrentino
> > 1987 PT38 8V92
> > Bedford Hills, NY
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transmission temerature question? - Leroy Eckert - 10-04-2007 05:34
Interesting info Don. I'll add that to my manual of other goodies. I agree the
placement of the sender gives different readings. A good example is the Pyro
temp. My transmission sender is in the transmission sump and runs 170. As well,
200 degrees is in the operating range. Just makes you wonder.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Bradner
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
The big issue is where the temperature sender is located. According to
AllisonTransOpMan.pdf, which I downloaded I think from one of these forums:
Sump Fluid, Minimum Continuous 100°F (40°C)
Sump Fluid, Typical Continuous 200°F (93°C)
Converter Out Fluid, Maximum 300°F (149°C)
Retarder Out Fluid, Maximum 330°F (165°C)
Sump Fluid, Maximum 250°F (121°C)
Based on your sump reading, it appears you are dead-on normal. Stop worrying,
enjoy traveling!
Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Posting today by satellite from Falcon, Colorado (East of Colorado Springs)
On 10/4/2007 at 4:57 PM thomas_sorrentino wrote:
>Leroy,
>
>When I stopped last night the gauge said 200. I checked the tranny
>sump with the infrared and it said 200. So I think the gauge is
>accurate. I'll double check it a few more times.
>
>Tom Sorrentino
>1987 PT38
>Bedford Hills, NY
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
>
>>
>> You might try to test the sender for its ohm range. Unfortunately,
>I do not know the ohm range for the 140-320 gauge. It may have
>somethng to do with the grounding of the threads.(ie.. if pipe dope
>was used to install) You can try to contact Joe Federsel at
>JFedersel.tflx.com and see it he can give you the range for that
>gauge sender.The gauge part number should be 9153475 and the sender
>number should be 52320S002(mfg sender code E) There is a trouble
>shooting guide at http://www.teleflexmarine.com but I cannot find the thing
>at this moment. It may have been moved from its prior location.
>> Leroy Eckert
>> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
>> Niceville, FL
>> Royale Conversion
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: thomas_sorrentino
>> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:43 AM
>> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Transmission temerature question?
>>
>>
>> Rob and Leroy,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. So it seems like mine is running hotter
>than it
>> should be! Now I just need to figure out why? The water
>temperature
>> is fine, 190 with fan cycling as needed.Now I just need to figure
>out
>> why? I guess my next step would be to get the cooler cleaned real
>> well. Any other suggestions?
>>
>> Rob,
>> The rally is going to be great! twelve coaches, weather is
>perfect,
>> fall foilage, plenty to do in the area, good resturants, FMCA has
>a
>> rally in the same campground, with all their stuff.
>> And all the Disney characters will be there! Brisket Boy, Tent
>Boy
>> etc..
>> Next year plan to be in the North East Columbus day weekend!
>>
>> Tom Sorrentino
>> 1987 PT38
>> Bedford Hills, NY
>>
>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_sorrentino"
>>
>> >
>> > I'm not sure if I'm making more of an issue of this or not. I
>have
>> a
>> > separate trans. temp. gauge. When I start out and everything is
>> warmed
>> > up it's at a steady 170. When I get off the highway and start
>> sitting
>> > at traffic lights it goes up to around 220-230. Once I get
>moving
>> again
>> > it will go down to 200, but not back to 170. I checked the
>trans.
>> pan
>> > with the infrared and the gauge seems to be accurate. I changed
>the
>> > trans. fluid and filter. Trans. sample came back ok. Removed
>the
>> grill
>> > over radiator and cleaned the outside the best I could. All
>other
>> temp.
>> > are normal. This may have always been like this and I just
>noticed
>> it,
>> > I don't know. Does anybody else experience anything like this?
>Is
>> it a
>> > sign something is not right?
>> >
>> > Tom Sorrentino
>> > 1987 PT38 8V92
>> > Bedford Hills, NY
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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