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+--- Thread: Let's get serious (/showthread.php?tid=6178)
Let's get serious - Mike Hohnstein - 01-05-2008 15:01
I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as a whole. I
think the time has come for members to step up to the plate, particularly the
ones who feel they need a genuine service facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges,
and state what they view as a fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are
you willing to spend, actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero.
I'm sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information could well be
instrumental in justifying such a venture.
Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!
Mike Hohnstein
Germantown, WI
AutoTransDesign.com
83FC35
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - Curt Sprenger - 01-05-2008 15:18
Mike, I'll step up.
Our local big rig shops in S. Cal. get $110/hr labor rate, with no estimate
up front on hours to do the work. This seems fair to me as no two units are
the same, and our coaches are an unknown to these shops or any shop for that
matter. I have paid that rate a couple times because I do not have the tools
to do the job. The tools would cost about three times the labor invoice I
paid so I felt pretty good about the deals. And they did the job right the
first time. I'm driving a 1987 coach, 21 years old, a wonderful coach, I
like it, and I plan to keep it because of it's quality, character, etc., and
if I can't fix the problems and a local shop can, that makes me a happy
camper. I welcome CCW to take on the repair work. I'll pay the invoice.
On Jan 5, 2008 7:01 PM, Mike Hohnstein <MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
> I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as a
> whole. I think the time has come for members to step up to the plate,
> particularly the ones who feel they need a genuine service facility to fix
> on ALL Wanderlodges, and state what they view as a fair labor rate. Have at
> it you guys, what are you willing to spend, actually pull out the dusty
> wallet and drop some dinero. I'm sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and
> such information could well be instrumental in justifying such a venture.
> Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> AutoTransDesign.com
> 83FC35
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - Gregory OConnor - 01-05-2008 17:19
As for Macy's venture, 'The die is cast'. justification would be a
passage chiseled on a stone if the thing dont work$.
Service and Repair are different tasks. the non uniqueness of
service should always be done at flat price.
I would pay 100% of going rate ($90.00 hour) for REPAIR if the
repair was sold with confidence that the tech was privy to MFG
documentation ,product familiarity, and parts. I think the
challenge would be for the service writter to produce a
troubleshooting / previous fix databace to win my business. I feel
that selling repairs at a higher rate with claims of specialized
knowledge is rude and extorionary and elevates shade tree shops.
It is sad that consumers are happy to pay more to get what 100%
should afford.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
<MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
>
> I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as
a whole. I think the time has come for members to step up to the
plate, particularly the ones who feel they need a genuine service
facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges, and state what they view as a
fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are you willing to
spend, actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero. I'm
sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information could
well be instrumental in justifying such a venture.
> Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> AutoTransDesign.com
> 83FC35
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Let's get serious - rogerwwebb@... - 01-05-2008 23:02
IMO, one of the bigger problems working on and repairing a BB is lack of
technical documentation -- drawings, manuals, diagnostic procedures, etc.
The small RV repair shop I use has a competent staff of individuals skilled
in electrical, mechanical and plumbing at $90 per hour rates. However, it is
common to spend more time determining the problem than fixing it. Calling
BB technical support can help, but that adds to the time. I believe my
coach is the only BB they see, which doesn't do much for building their
knowledge base.
I have tried taking my Bird to other (larger) RV repair centers and they
really are not interested in tackling anything that is not a standard SOB type
of problem. I believe the BB scares them, or it indicates a lack of skilled
technicians to diagnosis things.
One help would be for BB to publish what documentation is available for each
year of coach. For example, the electrical drawings recently mentioned on
this forum, or the air step diagnostic chart I got a few years ago. It would
be most beneficial if we knew what was available.
It would be grand if they could put everything online and accessible to
owners. I believe this would be more efficient than copying a set of drawings
to sell on request. Although someone in BB may think this is a money maker, I
believe paying $100-200 for a set of drawings is not really covering their
true cost. It may be covering the cost of the person doing the order taking,
copying and mailing, but I would argue that is not a very good use of labor.
Not to mention the length of time it takes to get the drawings to the
customer. That same person could digitize it once and BB could charge $20 for
copies and really make a little money while delighting us, the customer.
Roger Webb
91 WL
Cedar Rapids, IA
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - brad barton - 01-06-2008 02:44
I'd be glad to pay the going rate of 95-135/hr in the DFW area if I could make
sure the parts were OEM or better and that the repair is done right once and for
all. My experience with local talent has been to find perservering honest
people who do their best but don't manage to get the job completely done.
For instance, my entry door has been worked on four times and still takes a hard
slam to get it latched properly. My 12V air compressor was replaced but I
suspect an air leak (I still have) was responsible for overrunning the pump in
the first place and wearing it out prematurely. A minor water leak (that had
been "fixed") at the air purge toggle valve ran me out of water (from a quarter
tank) and I found the water pump running for who knows how long. Now I don't
know how long I've shortened its life by not catching it earlier.
If I thought someone would do it right and stand behind it for labor and parts,
I'd consider paying more.
I'd also like to go to an owners' seminar for my particular vintage of coach
with a Blue Bird engineer. More people buy these coaches used without any
orientation from the factory. Brad Barton 00LXiDFWbbartonwx@...
To: wanderlodge@...: WanderlodgeForum@...:
MHOHNSTEIN@...: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600Subject:
[WanderlodgeForum] Let's get serious
I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as a whole. I
think the time has come for members to step up to the plate, particularly the
ones who feel they need a genuine service facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges,
and state what they view as a fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are you
willing to spend, actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero. I'm
sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information could well be
instrumental in justifying such a venture.Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!Mike
HohnsteinGermantown, WIAutoTransDesign.com83FC35[Non-text portions of this
message have been removed]
_________________________________________________________________
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Liveâ¢.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_Medi\
aCtr_bigscreen_012008
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - ebirder2000@... - 01-06-2008 03:09
Actually Pete this is the world according to at least the two of us. What
you say makes perfect sense.
At last a breath of fresh air.
Steve Anderson
"Journey"
79 FC 35
BTW my wife uses the same expression for me.
In a message dated 1/6/2008 10:05:22 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
susanmarycamilleri@... writes:
re
This is the world according to me.
If you are really rich, and money was not a consideration, you would
buy a new coach, BB, MCI, Newell, Prevost, etc. The reason that
vintage Birds are such a bargain is that when things get older, they
have to be worked on. Most RV owners don't want to pull a wrench in
their spare time, which is reflected in the resale value of older
motorhomes. Vintage birds are a bargain to buy, but expect big bills
if you want systems repaired by a buisness that rarely sees a BB. It
is even a little unrealistic to expect the dealers to know, or
remember how to work on 20-30 yr old vehicles. Take a 30 yr old car
with points to a garage for a tune up and see how far you get.
When I bought my BB I was impressed with the ruggedness of its
construction. It had some goofy "bling" for its vintage (LED dash
clock tied into several relays that could turn on a 110v sterio in
the bedroom, or the 12v vacuum pump to operate a cruise control that
you never use because the engine does't have enough power). Needless
to say some of those type systems are not maintainable.
I do almost all my own work. I say it is because I am frugal (my wife
has another word for it that starts with cheap). I think we are all a
little frugal or we would all be driving new motorhomes rather than
vintage birds.
Bottom line, you have to be able to pull on a wrench, or pay through
the nose when you own an older vehicle.
Just my point of view.
Pete
"Prairie Dog"
78 35' FC
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - susanmarycamilleri - 01-06-2008 05:05
This is the world according to me.
If you are really rich, and money was not a consideration, you would
buy a new coach, BB, MCI, Newell, Prevost, etc. The reason that
vintage Birds are such a bargain is that when things get older, they
have to be worked on. Most RV owners don't want to pull a wrench in
their spare time, which is reflected in the resale value of older
motorhomes. Vintage birds are a bargain to buy, but expect big bills
if you want systems repaired by a buisness that rarely sees a BB. It
is even a little unrealistic to expect the dealers to know, or
remember how to work on 20-30 yr old vehicles. Take a 30 yr old car
with points to a garage for a tune up and see how far you get.
When I bought my BB I was impressed with the ruggedness of its
construction. It had some goofy "bling" for its vintage (LED dash
clock tied into several relays that could turn on a 110v sterio in
the bedroom, or the 12v vacuum pump to operate a cruise control that
you never use because the engine does't have enough power). Needless
to say some of those type systems are not maintainable.
I do almost all my own work. I say it is because I am frugal (my wife
has another word for it that starts with cheap). I think we are all a
little frugal or we would all be driving new motorhomes rather than
vintage birds.
Bottom line, you have to be able to pull on a wrench, or pay through
the nose when you own an older vehicle.
Just my point of view.
Pete
"Prairie Dog"
78 35' FC
Let's get serious - Gregory OConnor - 01-06-2008 05:31
It sounds like all your issues require a RV mechanic not a Big rig
truck/bus repair facility.
One thing to check on the door is aignment. as you close the door
the top lip and the bottom lip must touch at the same time. if the
door is tweeked you can close it on a 2X4 to adjust the flatness.
It could also be the top and bottom seal are too thick. BY the time
a shop looks at it, the mis alignment of the latch is faulty as a
result of slamming to a close(latch alignment is a result not the
cause). On my 94 the alumnium door swells in the sun and gets jammed
in the opening.
Factory orientation for owners of Vintage birds?? sound like
something Eli Lilly would sponsor.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, brad barton <bbartonwx@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I'd be glad to pay the going rate of 95-135/hr in the DFW area if
I could make sure the parts were OEM or better and that the repair
is done right once and for all. My experience with local talent has
been to find perservering honest people who do their best but don't
manage to get the job completely done.
> For instance, my entry door has been worked on four times and
still takes a hard slam to get it latched properly. My 12V air
compressor was replaced but I suspect an air leak (I still have) was
responsible for overrunning the pump in the first place and wearing
it out prematurely. A minor water leak (that had been "fixed") at
the air purge toggle valve ran me out of water (from a quarter tank)
and I found the water pump running for who knows how long. Now I
don't know how long I've shortened its life by not catching it
earlier.
> If I thought someone would do it right and stand behind it for
labor and parts, I'd consider paying more.
> I'd also like to go to an owners' seminar for my particular
vintage of coach with a Blue Bird engineer. More people buy these
coaches used without any orientation from the factory. Brad
Barton 00LXiDFWbbartonwx@...
>
>
> To: wanderlodge@...: WanderlodgeForum@...: MHOHNSTEIN@...: Sat, 5
Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Let's get serious
>
>
>
>
> I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as
a whole. I think the time has come for members to step up to the
plate, particularly the ones who feel they need a genuine service
facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges, and state what they view as a
fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are you willing to spend,
actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero. I'm
sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information could
well be instrumental in justifying such a venture.Don't be shy,
let's hear it!!!Mike HohnsteinGermantown, WIAutoTransDesign.com83FC35
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows
Liveâ¢.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?
ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Let's get serious - Pete Masterson - 01-06-2008 05:38
While I certainly don't expect service to be free, a rate that is
reasonable in relation to other heavy equipment service providers is
appropriate -- possibly with a modest premium for special "BB"
knowledge/experience.
I know, for example, that Camping World charges rates comparable with
other service providers for various basic services (oil change,
generator service) and for installation of various components
purchased through their stores (e.g. installing a Remco transmission
lube pump on my toad). Unfortunately, the level of BB knowledge at a
Camping World store is, essentially, non-existent (although the
Fairfield CA CW now has a couple of technicians who've experienced
the joy of working on at least one 'bird).
There are market realities. CCW/BBCoachworks could not reasonably
expect to charge substantially more that the going rate to perform
various service tasks on vintage 'birds -- nor would BB owners be
likely to seek out such service if reasonably priced (but perhaps
lower knowledge-level) alternatives exist. Some premium for the BB
knowledge is appropriate -- but only if that actually results in
better service or faster ability to track down certain unique to BB
problems. We all make judgments about the level of quality (value)
vs. cost.
There is also a very real locality issue. Service charges vary
significantly by region of the country. When I had a radiator service
(that had experience with heavy equipment) work on my coach, it's
location in the San Francisco Bay Area came with an approximate 25%
higher price than a similar service in central Oklahoma might have
charged. So, the Ft. Valley plant might be expected to have lower
hourly shop rates than the Southern California CCW facility. That
would simply reflect the different costs in land/rent, prevailing
wage rates, etc. I also note that I paid about double ($350) what
someone else claimed ($180) for a replacement motor for the generator
cooling fan. (I might have shopped more for the repair, but I would
have had a much higher hassle factor and doubtless would have had to
drive much further to deliver/pickup the motor -- so my convenience
also factored into the price I was willing to pay.)
Since I'm aware of the regional cost differentials, I accept that I'm
going to pay more in the Bay Area on service for many things, as well
as for my coach. Indeed, after backing into a pole with my toad at an
RV park in Texas, I elected to have the damage repaired by a small-
town Texas body shop rather then wait until I returned to California.
I figure I saved about 50% on the repair cost. (The damage was below
my deductible, so insurance wasn't a factor.)
So, your question is certainly realistic, but is far from simple to
answer.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at
On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Mike Hohnstein wrote:
> I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as
> a whole. I think the time has come for members to step up to the
> plate, particularly the ones who feel they need a genuine service
> facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges, and state what they view as a
> fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are you willing to
> spend, actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero.
> I'm sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information
> could well be instrumental in justifying such a venture.
> Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> AutoTransDesign.com
> 83FC35
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Let's get serious - Mike Hohnstein - 01-06-2008 05:50
It's pretty simple Masterson, what are you willing to pay for a dedicated BB
tech to deal with issues particular to BB??
I see some are getting off on tangents regarding this thread, and I would ask
those who have a point of view to save it and post what they are willing to pay.
Not interested in anecdotal comments about RV related services. We are talking
Wanderlodge exclusively here.
My shop does such work and I'm interested in what the "community considers
fair", as I'm sure the new stewards of Wanderlodge do.
MH
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Let's get serious
While I certainly don't expect service to be free, a rate that is
reasonable in relation to other heavy equipment service providers is
appropriate -- possibly with a modest premium for special "BB"
knowledge/experience.
I know, for example, that Camping World charges rates comparable with
other service providers for various basic services (oil change,
generator service) and for installation of various components
purchased through their stores (e.g. installing a Remco transmission
lube pump on my toad). Unfortunately, the level of BB knowledge at a
Camping World store is, essentially, non-existent (although the
Fairfield CA CW now has a couple of technicians who've experienced
the joy of working on at least one 'bird).
There are market realities. CCW/BBCoachworks could not reasonably
expect to charge substantially more that the going rate to perform
various service tasks on vintage 'birds -- nor would BB owners be
likely to seek out such service if reasonably priced (but perhaps
lower knowledge-level) alternatives exist. Some premium for the BB
knowledge is appropriate -- but only if that actually results in
better service or faster ability to track down certain unique to BB
problems. We all make judgments about the level of quality (value)
vs. cost.
There is also a very real locality issue. Service charges vary
significantly by region of the country. When I had a radiator service
(that had experience with heavy equipment) work on my coach, it's
location in the San Francisco Bay Area came with an approximate 25%
higher price than a similar service in central Oklahoma might have
charged. So, the Ft. Valley plant might be expected to have lower
hourly shop rates than the Southern California CCW facility. That
would simply reflect the different costs in land/rent, prevailing
wage rates, etc. I also note that I paid about double ($350) what
someone else claimed ($180) for a replacement motor for the generator
cooling fan. (I might have shopped more for the repair, but I would
have had a much higher hassle factor and doubtless would have had to
drive much further to deliver/pickup the motor -- so my convenience
also factored into the price I was willing to pay.)
Since I'm aware of the regional cost differentials, I accept that I'm
going to pay more in the Bay Area on service for many things, as well
as for my coach. Indeed, after backing into a pole with my toad at an
RV park in Texas, I elected to have the damage repaired by a small-
town Texas body shop rather then wait until I returned to California.
I figure I saved about 50% on the repair cost. (The damage was below
my deductible, so insurance wasn't a factor.)
So, your question is certainly realistic, but is far from simple to
answer.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at
On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Mike Hohnstein wrote:
> I think it's probably realistic to pose a question to the group as
> a whole. I think the time has come for members to step up to the
> plate, particularly the ones who feel they need a genuine service
> facility to fix on ALL Wanderlodges, and state what they view as a
> fair labor rate. Have at it you guys, what are you willing to
> spend, actually pull out the dusty wallet and drop some dinero.
> I'm sure 'ol Macy will be VERY interested, and such information
> could well be instrumental in justifying such a venture.
> Don't be shy, let's hear it!!!
> Mike Hohnstein
> Germantown, WI
> AutoTransDesign.com
> 83FC35
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]