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Cost of ownership
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Cost of ownership
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Cost of ownership
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07-08-2006, 15:33
Post: #31
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Cost of ownership
Gardner dont get discouraged. But you do need to ask the "right"
questions if you hope to get a Bluebird that will suite you. First can you do the majority of the work on the coach yourself ? If you understand the mechanics such as brakes, chassis, engines etc then you are a long way to doing it. Do you have the tools and space to work in? Can you use a multimeter and read factory blueprints that are available for all Bluebirds? If you can answer yes to these questions then I would advise you to jump in and buy one for they are not as complicated as some would have you believe. I would look for a rust free southern coach that has not been butchered by inexperienced maintenance. Just make sure you get someone that understands Bluebirds and not only can work on them but can evaluate the various systems on the coach with you. Mechanics can give you advise on the engine and transmission but most of them are lost when it comes to the other systems of a motorhome. One thing is in your favor now, there are lots of bluebirds for sale and its a buyers market. Cash talks!!! Tom Warner Vernon Center,NY 1985 PT 40 At 11:09 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote: >Leroy, >I am at the stage where I must rent a motorhome and 'see if we >like it'. This is a tough sell because the first trip is almost sure >to be a disaster unless I do a tremendous amount of homework and >pick the right campgrounds and the right MH etc.etc. Too bad there >aren't any Bluebirds on the rental scene. >Gardner > >--- In > >"jwasnewski" > > > > > -Yes sir I understand. I have been there. In my case the wife was > > the driving force to buy a motor home. She didn't think I would >like > > it---for once she was wrong-----LOL > > do not wake her up. > > > > Leroy Eckert > > 1990 WB-40 > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > -- In > > "gcyeaw" > > > > > > Leroy, > > > I have a lot of work to do before I can get the DW to weigh in >on > > > the plan. Oh,I could probably go ahead and do it on my own, but > > then > > > I would become a 'full timer", alone, with half my income. > > > > > > You know the old expression about divorce. > > > When you are married you get up in the morning, leave the >house > > > and kiss your wife good by. > > > When you get divorced, you get up in the morning, leave your > > wife > > > and kiss your house good by! > > > > > > Gardner > > > --- In > > "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Gardner: > > > > > > > > Come on man, jump on in with the rest of us. You will be happy > > you > > > purchased the ol school bus. Just look for the best physical > > > specimen before you buy. > > > > > > > > Side note----the wife wanted a Prevost. She said the Bluebird > > > looked like a school bus. I said, you have traveled many a >mile > > in > > > a school bus and you are still here. Now---I cannot get her out >of > > > the thing. > > > > > > > > You will love a Bird. It is a lifestyle. > > > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: gcyeaw > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 PM > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, Leroy, I can't disagree that if all I wanted was an >RV, > > > then > > > > buying a new or slightly used motorhome would be the way to >go. > > > When > > > > I saw an older Bluebird, it just looked so great. It was a >true > > > > classic with character and that is the attraction. It >certainly > > > > isn't the wisest investment if all you look at is the >dollars. > > > There > > > > has to be a return in the enjoyment and satisfaction of >caring > > > for > > > > and reviving such a machine. > > > > > > > > The reason I ask questions is to make sure I am going in >with > > my > > > > eyes wide open. The more I learn the better I will be able >to > > > make a > > > > wise choice when purchasing. And along the way I am meeting >new > > > > poeple on the forum, so it's already showing some reward. > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > --- In > > "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you. When we purchased our bird we planned >for > > > > deferred maintenance. I guess if we knew the costs of owning > > > these > > > > beautiful machines up front we could become consultants and > > > charge > > > > $200.00/hr. Then we could be sued for misrepresentation. >It's a > > > > crazy world. > > > > > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:49 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, you sure a new class C wouldn't be a better choice? > > Trying > > > > to see the future with an antique vehicle is very irrational. > > > > > MH > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: gcyeaw > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:54 AM > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > James, > > > > > Thanks for your data. There seems to be some controversy >over > > > > the > > > > > level 2 maintenance cost, but based on an average speed of > > say > > > > 30 > > > > > mph, that's 60,000 miles in 2000 hours. So if it's $800 or > > > $1200 > > > > > it's not much different spread out over that mileage/time. > > Not > > > > > knowing the cost of adding a swing radiator, it would seem >to > > > > pay > > > > > for itself on the first broken belt or hose. I imagine >that > > > > removing > > > > > the dog house and putting down a protective runner before > > > > heading in > > > > > for service might also save some labor and probably please > > the > > > > > service tech as well. > > > > > > > > > > --- In > >"orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner, here are some actual maintence costs for the >model > > > > > of 'Bird > > > > > > that you are looking for. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you take the 'Bird to an authorized Cat Center for >oil > > > and > > > > > filter > > > > > > changes it will cost $280.00 -- This will include all of > > > your > > > > oil > > > > > > and fuel filters, a complete chassie lube and Cat brand > > > motor > > > > > oil. > > > > > > Of course they do all the work, you watch them and start > > the > > > > bus > > > > > > when needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are the parts cost: > > > > > > > > > > > > 16 Qts. 15/40 Cat -- $34.40 > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 - 1R-0713 -------- $11.20 > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 1P-0808 -------- $2.46 > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 1R-0750 -------- $11.88 > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 8N9803 --------- $20.10 > > > > > > > > > > > > Total parts cost is $80.04 -- so, you can save two >hundered > > > > bucks > > > > > > here if you do it yourself. This is a once a year task >for > > > > most > > > > > > folks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tires, every five years between $2200 and $3000 >depending > > on > > > > Tire > > > > > > Brand. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cat PM level 2 Maintainence -- every 2000 hours or >10.000 > > > > gallons > > > > > of > > > > > > fuel -- Costs $790 at a certified Cat Center and >includes > > > > > > everything. This service also includes the above listed > > oil, > > > > > filter > > > > > > and lube service. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) All new hoses and belts > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Performance Analysis report > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) Steam clean engine > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Valve lash adjustment > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) cooling system service (flush and clean) > > > > > > > > > > > > That is pretty much your ongoing maintenience stuff. You > > can > > > > also > > > > > > figure on a transmission service every thirty thousand > > miles > > > > with > > > > > a > > > > > > new filter and fluid for about $175.00 including labor. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the stuff you can count on doing and what it > > actually > > > > > costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > >"orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, Gardner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 >year > > > > old, or > > > > > > > older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you > > buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember we are talking about older buses here and no >two > > > > are > > > > > the > > > > > > > same. You will find "project buses" on the market that > > may > > > > need > > > > > > > everything replaced on them from the motor and > > electronics > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a >very > > > > nice > > > > > > > highly updated example will be offered for sale that >will > > > > need > > > > > > next > > > > > > > to nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on > > > > > a "project > > > > > > > bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and > > > > everything > > > > > else > > > > > > > in the bus having been already updated and in good > > working > > > > order. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The >project > > > bus > > > > at > > > > > a > > > > > > > rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will >not > > be > > > > your > > > > > > best > > > > > > > value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care >by > > > > folks > > > > > who > > > > > > > were enthusiastic owners. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years > > old > > > > with > > > > > > > 15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced >so > > > > were > > > > > > all > > > > > > > pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All > > belts > > > > and > > > > > > > hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a > > year > > > > > old. > > > > > > > Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex > > > pure > > > > > sine- > > > > > > > wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition > > > Direct > > > > TV > > > > > > > system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less >than > > > a > > > > > year > > > > > > > old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 > > > years > > > > > > old. > > > > > > > Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a > > > year > > > > > ago. > > > > > > > Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair >in. > > > New > > > > > > carpet > > > > > > > about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get >my > > > > point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around >25 > > to > > > > 27 > > > > > > > thousand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now think about that "project bus" that has been >sitting > > > > behind > > > > > a > > > > > > > barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, >polished > > it > > > > up > > > > > and > > > > > > > hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very >different > > > > > pictures > > > > > > > arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very > > > different > > > > > cost > > > > > > of > > > > > > > ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be > > able > > > > to > > > > > buy > > > > > > > the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready >to > > > > spend > > > > > that > > > > > > > much again, and more, to make it into a good looking > > > > reliable > > > > > > runner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in >your > > > > price > > > > > > > range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > > > Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and >raining) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > "gcyeaw" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I do > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > responses I have received. I have been building a > > > > spreadsheet > > > > > to > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage >Bluebird. > > > I > > > > love > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems >at > > > my > > > > > > leisure > > > > > > > > prior to retirement. > > > > > > > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for >a > > > > 1984 > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would > > expect > > > > to > > > > > have > > > > > > > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I > > would > > > > > expect > > > > > > > > higher incidence of failure in in basic >engine/transmit > > > > > > > ion/chassis > > > > > > > > systems over say, a 10 year time span.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for > > routine > > > > > > > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance > > > > averaged > > > > > > over > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine > > > > rebuild) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am really trying to determine the value as the >clock > > > > > ticks > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, >but > > > so > > > > was > > > > > I > > > > > > 40 > > > > > > > > years ago! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > |
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07-08-2006, 15:34
Post: #32
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Cost of ownership
C'mon guys this thread is really getting kinda played out. I guess
what Gardner is asking after all is "who has the perverbial crystal ball". I guess it really boils down to each individual coach, does it not? If someone would care to give me a formula for "cost of ownership" I would really appreciate it. There are so many variables that makes this most difficult at best. He really could find a "pearl" and it would cost him next to nothing if it sat in a park somewhere. But take it on the road then..there would be other considerations. I really did not see any posts about how would you intend on using it? Generally, most use their coach differently. The first trip out in our coach (returning from RIV) I blew a head gasket..no biggy right..well..towing (no cost to me w/good road service plan) then came the thought of two NEW heads, gaskets, hmmm what caused that? Radiator cleaning, then a new water pump, to eliminate things etc..10 days in a great CAT shop in Charleston SC and well a valve lash while in there, set the fuel rack and some other things.. NONE OF THIS WAS FORSEEN. Total cost +/- 5000.00. IT WAS FIXED RIGHT. Then there are tires, genset stuff, relays, etc. Oh did I say $15K in October? Just to fix stuff the way it "should be fixed or replaced" AND I had nothing less than a great coach to start with. Uh where is that crystal ball? I guess that is the point, actually, somewhere between John S post and Mike H post..WHO REALLY KNOWS..the fact is these coaches are old, not to say not safe, great to drive, great look etc. but that all comes with a price. Many just "clip" the wire, "put the band aid" on it or trade it in and let others worry about it. Sorry but that is the truth. If you want to have a vintage coach, boat, car, then there will be expenses. Sometimes expensive fixes..goes with the teritory..most are unforseen. (why purchase a problem waiting to happen?) If one is not prepared for properly repairing, unforseen costs, emergency repairs or fixing the coach, or the cost of fuel, then maybe they should put there money elsewhere. Like a beach timeshare or like a new plastic palace. I chuckle every time I hear someone talk about "MY INVESTMENT" what a joke when it comes to a Blue Bird or any motorhome for that matter of fact. I have had several. If they feel it is a good investment..lemme show you some Fla property which has a water problem. I have not seen any motorhome appreciate, simply depreciate, some less than others. The pride of ownership is just that..some pride themselves more than others, and there is no arguement out there for a "good investment" and no one has the magic formula. Maybe the purchaser will take the sales pitch, great coach, all the upgrades, runs like a top, etc you get my point by now. Gardner be prepared for the unforseen even from the best maintained coach out there. A Blue Bird is not cheap to maintain or repair, actually there is nothing cheap to repair, even if you can find parts. BUT find a good BB coach, enjoy it, get to know it, and well you will not be disapointed, they truly are amazing machines. Not to mention the pride of owning one of the best on the road today, regardless if it is 20 years old or not. Wish you the best in your search. ScottB 86FC35 SC --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" > > Leroy, > I have a lot of work to do before I can get the DW to weigh in on > the plan. Oh,I could probably go ahead and do it on my own, but then > I would become a 'full timer", alone, with half my income. > > You know the old expression about divorce. > When you are married you get up in the morning, leave the house > and kiss your wife good by. > When you get divorced, you get up in the morning, leave your wife > and kiss your house good by! > > Gardner > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > Well Gardner: > > > > Come on man, jump on in with the rest of us. You will be happy you > purchased the ol school bus. Just look for the best physical > specimen before you buy. > > > > Side note----the wife wanted a Prevost. She said the Bluebird > looked like a school bus. I said, you have traveled many a mile in > a school bus and you are still here. Now---I cannot get her out of > the thing. > > > > You will love a Bird. It is a lifestyle. > > > > Leroy Eckert > > 1990 WB-40 > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: gcyeaw > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 PM > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > Mike, Leroy, I can't disagree that if all I wanted was an RV, > then > > buying a new or slightly used motorhome would be the way to go. > When > > I saw an older Bluebird, it just looked so great. It was a true > > classic with character and that is the attraction. It certainly > > isn't the wisest investment if all you look at is the dollars. > There > > has to be a return in the enjoyment and satisfaction of caring > for > > and reviving such a machine. > > > > The reason I ask questions is to make sure I am going in with my > > eyes wide open. The more I learn the better I will be able to > make a > > wise choice when purchasing. And along the way I am meeting new > > poeple on the forum, so it's already showing some reward. > > > > Gardner > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > I agree with you. When we purchased our bird we planned for > > deferred maintenance. I guess if we knew the costs of owning > these > > beautiful machines up front we could become consultants and > charge > > $200.00/hr. Then we could be sued for misrepresentation. It's a > > crazy world. > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Mike Hohnstein > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > Uh, you sure a new class C wouldn't be a better choice? Trying > > to see the future with an antique vehicle is very irrational. > > > MH > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: gcyeaw > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:54 AM > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > James, > > > Thanks for your data. There seems to be some controversy over > > the > > > level 2 maintenance cost, but based on an average speed of say > > 30 > > > mph, that's 60,000 miles in 2000 hours. So if it's $800 or > $1200 > > > it's not much different spread out over that mileage/time. Not > > > knowing the cost of adding a swing radiator, it would seem to > > pay > > > for itself on the first broken belt or hose. I imagine that > > removing > > > the dog house and putting down a protective runner before > > heading in > > > for service might also save some labor and probably please the > > > service tech as well. > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner, here are some actual maintence costs for the model > > > of 'Bird > > > > that you are looking for. > > > > > > > > If you take the 'Bird to an authorized Cat Center for oil > and > > > filter > > > > changes it will cost $280.00 -- This will include all of > your > > oil > > > > and fuel filters, a complete chassie lube and Cat brand > motor > > > oil. > > > > Of course they do all the work, you watch them and start the > > bus > > > > when needed. > > > > > > > > Here are the parts cost: > > > > > > > > 16 Qts. 15/40 Cat -- $34.40 > > > > > > > > 2 - 1R-0713 -------- $11.20 > > > > > > > > 1 - 1P-0808 -------- $2.46 > > > > > > > > 1 - 1R-0750 -------- $11.88 > > > > > > > > 1 - 8N9803 --------- $20.10 > > > > > > > > Total parts cost is $80.04 -- so, you can save two hundered > > bucks > > > > here if you do it yourself. This is a once a year task for > > most > > > > folks. > > > > > > > > Tires, every five years between $2200 and $3000 depending on > > Tire > > > > Brand. > > > > > > > > Cat PM level 2 Maintainence -- every 2000 hours or 10.000 > > gallons > > > of > > > > fuel -- Costs $790 at a certified Cat Center and includes > > > > everything. This service also includes the above listed oil, > > > filter > > > > and lube service. > > > > > > > > 1) All new hoses and belts > > > > > > > > 2) Performance Analysis report > > > > > > > > 3) Steam clean engine > > > > > > > > 4) Valve lash adjustment > > > > > > > > 5) cooling system service (flush and clean) > > > > > > > > That is pretty much your ongoing maintenience stuff. You can > > also > > > > figure on a transmission service every thirty thousand miles > > with > > > a > > > > new filter and fluid for about $175.00 including labor. > > > > > > > > That's the stuff you can count on doing and what it actually > > > costs. > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, Gardner. > > > > > > > > > > The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 year > > old, or > > > > > older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you buy. > > > > > > > > > > Remember we are talking about older buses here and no two > > are > > > the > > > > > same. You will find "project buses" on the market that may > > need > > > > > everything replaced on them from the motor and electronics > > to > > > the > > > > > fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a very > > nice > > > > > highly updated example will be offered for sale that will > > need > > > > next > > > > > to nothing. > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on > > > a "project > > > > > bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and > > everything > > > else > > > > > in the bus having been already updated and in good working > > order. > > > > > > > > > > I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The project > bus > > at > > > a > > > > > rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will not be > > your > > > > best > > > > > value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care by > > folks > > > who > > > > > were enthusiastic owners. > > > > > > > > > > Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years old > > with > > > > > 15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced so > > were > > > > all > > > > > pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All belts > > and > > > > > hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a year > > > old. > > > > > Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex > pure > > > sine- > > > > > wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition > Direct > > TV > > > > > system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less than > a > > > year > > > > > old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 > years > > > > old. > > > > > Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a > year > > > ago. > > > > > Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair in. > New > > > > carpet > > > > > about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get my > > point. > > > > > > > > > > If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around 25 to > > 27 > > > > > thousand. > > > > > > > > > > Now think about that "project bus" that has been sitting > > behind > > > a > > > > > barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, polished it > > up > > > and > > > > > hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very different > > > pictures > > > > > arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very > different > > > cost > > > > of > > > > > ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be able > > to > > > buy > > > > > the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready to > > spend > > > that > > > > > much again, and more, to make it into a good looking > > reliable > > > > runner. > > > > > > > > > > So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in your > > price > > > > > range. > > > > > > > > > > Good Luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and raining) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I do > > > appreciate > > > > > the > > > > > > responses I have received. I have been building a > > spreadsheet > > > to > > > > > try > > > > > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. > I > > love > > > > the > > > > > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at > my > > > > leisure > > > > > > prior to retirement. > > > > > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a > > 1984 > > > > or > > > > > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect > > to > > > have > > > > > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would > > > expect > > > > > > higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit > > > > > ion/chassis > > > > > > systems over say, a 10 year time span.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine > > > > > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance > > averaged > > > > over > > > > > a > > > > > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine > > rebuild) > > > > > > > > > > > > I am really trying to determine the value as the clock > > > ticks > > > > on > > > > > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but > so > > was > > > I > > > > 40 > > > > > > years ago! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > |
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07-08-2006, 16:40
Post: #33
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Cost of ownership
Leroy,
Yes,tinkering is fun and a learning process. I love it. I learn new things every day by tinkering. You and many others on the forums have taught me a lot and supported me with my tinkering. Come on over to the left coast and we'll talk birds for hours/days. Let me know when you are coming and I'll get the local Bird Folks together and we'll have a great time. Since I was a little kid I have looked at everything as "why can't I", instead of " I' can't". I had a teacher in the lower grades and she always said the word "can't" does not exist. What a wonderful teacher. Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. Leroy Eckert wrote: > Curt: > > One of these days I'm driving the Bird to CA. I gotta see what you are > doing. You are like myself, just like to tinker with stuff. > > Leroy Eckert > 1990 WB-40 > Niceville, FL. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Curt Sprenger > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > Gardner, > > Here is what I spent doing a swing radiator on the 1974 FC31. I did as > much of the work as I could. I cut the radiator mounting plate, welded > the hinges, etc. $66.00 for hinges/nuts/bolt/washers, etc. for swing > radiator and swing down pumper. $280 to rod out, test, modify the > radiator. $233.27 for hoses/clamps (top/lower/pump, etc.). $105.22 for > new belts. $197.32 for new transmission cooler hoses (this may not be > needed). This adds up to $882.31 total cost for the swing radiator > project. A shop charging $2,000 seems reasonable. > > The swing radiator project is not that bad. If you are handy, can cut > the radiator mounting plate or have someone cut it, can weld or have a > friend that welds (about 15 minutes of work at most to modify the > mounting plate) you can do this project. I spent very few hours of > actual work, about 30 hours of head scratching, chasing radiator tune up > & mod., hoses, other parts. > > See http://www.6url.com/0TZP <http://www.6url.com/0TZP> Go down to the > last entry, Swing.htm, for > a write up on the swing radiator project. > > Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > gcyeaw wrote: > > > There is an entry in the files section under Swing Radiator. It > > puts the cost between 1 and 2 thousand dollars. It isn't as easy as > > it sounds according to the file. > > Gardner > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Tom. You are right on the money about the swing radiator! I > > > consider it a must have on an FC. I don't know how much it costs > > to > > > do the conversion but I know it isn't cheap. I'm sure someone here > > > can tell us how much to have it done, or how costly if you can do > > it > > > yourself. In fact, Blue Bird made them standard equipment > > somewhere > > > along the line, not sure when. This is an excellent example of > > how > > > you will have a lower cost of ownership depending if you buy a bus > > > with or without a swing-out radiator. > > > > > > > > > James > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Remember that having a swing radiator will have an impact on the > > > > price as will having to remove the doghouse to check the valve > > > lash. > > > > > > > > Tom Warner > > > > Vernon Center,NY > > > > 1985 PT 40 > > > > > > > > At 11:31 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Bruce, I was quoted $790.00 by Cashman Cat in Las Vegas NV > > where > > > I was > > > > >a repeat customer. Of course, Cat franchises are independently > > > owned > > > > >and operated. So prices, as well as services offered, will > > vary. I > > > > >suppose different markets may dictate varing prices as well. > > > > > > > > > >In any event, I think a range of $800 to $1100.00 is probably > > > realistic. > > > > > > > > > >When I have a chance I'll get a quote from Ring Power, the Cat > > > place > > > > >here in central FL, and see what they say. I need to get some > > new > > > Cat > > > > >hats anyway. > > > > > > > > > >James > > > > >78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > >Orange Lake FL > > > > > > > > > >--- In > > > > > > > > > > > > >"birdshill123" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James: You must have a bargain Cat dealer. I doubt most > > would > > > do all > > > > > > that work for $790.00 More like $1000 plus. If you figure > > > labor rates > > > > > > of $90.00 (could be higher) just doing the belts and hoses > > > could > > > > > > easily eat up $400 TO $500 . Doesnt leave much for the valve > > > > > > adjustment. They might charge $790 to do this on a > > > conventional truck > > > > > > but not a MH. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce: 1988 FC35 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > |
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07-08-2006, 16:43
Post: #34
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Cost of ownership
Great analysis
Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Niceville, FL . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 10:34 PM Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership C'mon guys this thread is really getting kinda played out. I guess what Gardner is asking after all is "who has the perverbial crystal ball". I guess it really boils down to each individual coach, does it not? If someone would care to give me a formula for "cost of ownership" I would really appreciate it. There are so many variables that makes this most difficult at best. He really could find a "pearl" and it would cost him next to nothing if it sat in a park somewhere. But take it on the road then..there would be other considerations. I really did not see any posts about how would you intend on using it? Generally, most use their coach differently. The first trip out in our coach (returning from RIV) I blew a head gasket..no biggy right..well..towing (no cost to me w/good road service plan) then came the thought of two NEW heads, gaskets, hmmm what caused that? Radiator cleaning, then a new water pump, to eliminate things etc..10 days in a great CAT shop in Charleston SC and well a valve lash while in there, set the fuel rack and some other things.. NONE OF THIS WAS FORSEEN. Total cost +/- 5000.00. IT WAS FIXED RIGHT. Then there are tires, genset stuff, relays, etc. Oh did I say $15K in October? Just to fix stuff the way it "should be fixed or replaced" AND I had nothing less than a great coach to start with. Uh where is that crystal ball? I guess that is the point, actually, somewhere between John S post and Mike H post..WHO REALLY KNOWS..the fact is these coaches are old, not to say not safe, great to drive, great look etc. but that all comes with a price. Many just "clip" the wire, "put the band aid" on it or trade it in and let others worry about it. Sorry but that is the truth. If you want to have a vintage coach, boat, car, then there will be expenses. Sometimes expensive fixes..goes with the teritory..most are unforseen. (why purchase a problem waiting to happen?) If one is not prepared for properly repairing, unforseen costs, emergency repairs or fixing the coach, or the cost of fuel, then maybe they should put there money elsewhere. Like a beach timeshare or like a new plastic palace. I chuckle every time I hear someone talk about "MY INVESTMENT" what a joke when it comes to a Blue Bird or any motorhome for that matter of fact. I have had several. If they feel it is a good investment..lemme show you some Fla property which has a water problem. I have not seen any motorhome appreciate, simply depreciate, some less than others. The pride of ownership is just that..some pride themselves more than others, and there is no arguement out there for a "good investment" and no one has the magic formula. Maybe the purchaser will take the sales pitch, great coach, all the upgrades, runs like a top, etc you get my point by now. Gardner be prepared for the unforseen even from the best maintained coach out there. A Blue Bird is not cheap to maintain or repair, actually there is nothing cheap to repair, even if you can find parts. BUT find a good BB coach, enjoy it, get to know it, and well you will not be disapointed, they truly are amazing machines. Not to mention the pride of owning one of the best on the road today, regardless if it is 20 years old or not. Wish you the best in your search. ScottB 86FC35 SC --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" > > Leroy, > I have a lot of work to do before I can get the DW to weigh in on > the plan. Oh,I could probably go ahead and do it on my own, but then > I would become a 'full timer", alone, with half my income. > > You know the old expression about divorce. > When you are married you get up in the morning, leave the house > and kiss your wife good by. > When you get divorced, you get up in the morning, leave your wife > and kiss your house good by! > > Gardner > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > Well Gardner: > > > > Come on man, jump on in with the rest of us. You will be happy you > purchased the ol school bus. Just look for the best physical > specimen before you buy. > > > > Side note----the wife wanted a Prevost. She said the Bluebird > looked like a school bus. I said, you have traveled many a mile in > a school bus and you are still here. Now---I cannot get her out of > the thing. > > > > You will love a Bird. It is a lifestyle. > > > > Leroy Eckert > > 1990 WB-40 > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: gcyeaw > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 PM > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > Mike, Leroy, I can't disagree that if all I wanted was an RV, > then > > buying a new or slightly used motorhome would be the way to go. > When > > I saw an older Bluebird, it just looked so great. It was a true > > classic with character and that is the attraction. It certainly > > isn't the wisest investment if all you look at is the dollars. > There > > has to be a return in the enjoyment and satisfaction of caring > for > > and reviving such a machine. > > > > The reason I ask questions is to make sure I am going in with my > > eyes wide open. The more I learn the better I will be able to > make a > > wise choice when purchasing. And along the way I am meeting new > > poeple on the forum, so it's already showing some reward. > > > > Gardner > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > I agree with you. When we purchased our bird we planned for > > deferred maintenance. I guess if we knew the costs of owning > these > > beautiful machines up front we could become consultants and > charge > > $200.00/hr. Then we could be sued for misrepresentation. It's a > > crazy world. > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Mike Hohnstein > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > Uh, you sure a new class C wouldn't be a better choice? Trying > > to see the future with an antique vehicle is very irrational. > > > MH > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: gcyeaw > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:54 AM > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > James, > > > Thanks for your data. There seems to be some controversy over > > the > > > level 2 maintenance cost, but based on an average speed of say > > 30 > > > mph, that's 60,000 miles in 2000 hours. So if it's $800 or > $1200 > > > it's not much different spread out over that mileage/time. Not > > > knowing the cost of adding a swing radiator, it would seem to > > pay > > > for itself on the first broken belt or hose. I imagine that > > removing > > > the dog house and putting down a protective runner before > > heading in > > > for service might also save some labor and probably please the > > > service tech as well. > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner, here are some actual maintence costs for the model > > > of 'Bird > > > > that you are looking for. > > > > > > > > If you take the 'Bird to an authorized Cat Center for oil > and > > > filter > > > > changes it will cost $280.00 -- This will include all of > your > > oil > > > > and fuel filters, a complete chassie lube and Cat brand > motor > > > oil. > > > > Of course they do all the work, you watch them and start the > > bus > > > > when needed. > > > > > > > > Here are the parts cost: > > > > > > > > 16 Qts. 15/40 Cat -- $34.40 > > > > > > > > 2 - 1R-0713 -------- $11.20 > > > > > > > > 1 - 1P-0808 -------- $2.46 > > > > > > > > 1 - 1R-0750 -------- $11.88 > > > > > > > > 1 - 8N9803 --------- $20.10 > > > > > > > > Total parts cost is $80.04 -- so, you can save two hundered > > bucks > > > > here if you do it yourself. This is a once a year task for > > most > > > > folks. > > > > > > > > Tires, every five years between $2200 and $3000 depending on > > Tire > > > > Brand. > > > > > > > > Cat PM level 2 Maintainence -- every 2000 hours or 10.000 > > gallons > > > of > > > > fuel -- Costs $790 at a certified Cat Center and includes > > > > everything. This service also includes the above listed oil, > > > filter > > > > and lube service. > > > > > > > > 1) All new hoses and belts > > > > > > > > 2) Performance Analysis report > > > > > > > > 3) Steam clean engine > > > > > > > > 4) Valve lash adjustment > > > > > > > > 5) cooling system service (flush and clean) > > > > > > > > That is pretty much your ongoing maintenience stuff. You can > > also > > > > figure on a transmission service every thirty thousand miles > > with > > > a > > > > new filter and fluid for about $175.00 including labor. > > > > > > > > That's the stuff you can count on doing and what it actually > > > costs. > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, Gardner. > > > > > > > > > > The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 year > > old, or > > > > > older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you buy. > > > > > > > > > > Remember we are talking about older buses here and no two > > are > > > the > > > > > same. You will find "project buses" on the market that may > > need > > > > > everything replaced on them from the motor and electronics > > to > > > the > > > > > fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a very > > nice > > > > > highly updated example will be offered for sale that will > > need > > > > next > > > > > to nothing. > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on > > > a "project > > > > > bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and > > everything > > > else > > > > > in the bus having been already updated and in good working > > order. > > > > > > > > > > I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The project > bus > > at > > > a > > > > > rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will not be > > your > > > > best > > > > > value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care by > > folks > > > who > > > > > were enthusiastic owners. > > > > > > > > > > Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years old > > with > > > > > 15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced so > > were > > > > all > > > > > pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All belts > > and > > > > > hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a year > > > old. > > > > > Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex > pure > > > sine- > > > > > wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition > Direct > > TV > > > > > system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less than > a > > > year > > > > > old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 > years > > > > old. > > > > > Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a > year > > > ago. > > > > > Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair in. > New > > > > carpet > > > > > about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get my > > point. > > > > > > > > > > If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around 25 to > > 27 > > > > > thousand. > > > > > > > > > > Now think about that "project bus" that has been sitting > > behind > > > a > > > > > barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, polished it > > up > > > and > > > > > hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very different > > > pictures > > > > > arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very > different > > > cost > > > > of > > > > > ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be able > > to > > > buy > > > > > the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready to > > spend > > > that > > > > > much again, and more, to make it into a good looking > > reliable > > > > runner. > > > > > > > > > > So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in your > > price > > > > > range. > > > > > > > > > > Good Luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and raining) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I do > > > appreciate > > > > > the > > > > > > responses I have received. I have been building a > > spreadsheet > > > to > > > > > try > > > > > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. > I > > love > > > > the > > > > > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at > my > > > > leisure > > > > > > prior to retirement. > > > > > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a > > 1984 > > > > or > > > > > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect > > to > > > have > > > > > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would > > > expect > > > > > > higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit > > > > > ion/chassis > > > > > > systems over say, a 10 year time span.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine > > > > > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance > > averaged > > > > over > > > > > a > > > > > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine > > rebuild) > > > > > > > > > > > > I am really trying to determine the value as the clock > > > ticks > > > > on > > > > > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but > so > > was > > > I > > > > 40 > > > > > > years ago! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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07-08-2006, 18:03
Post: #35
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Cost of ownership
Curt: Yes sir I understand completely. I do the same thing. Can't is one of
those words that my 91 year old mother taught me as follows-----take your fist , knock out the apostrophe and T and the word becomes can. Add do to the equation and it becomes can do. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Niceville. FL ----- Original Message ----- From: Curt Sprenger To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership Leroy, Yes,tinkering is fun and a learning process. I love it. I learn new things every day by tinkering. You and many others on the forums have taught me a lot and supported me with my tinkering. Come on over to the left coast and we'll talk birds for hours/days. Let me know when you are coming and I'll get the local Bird Folks together and we'll have a great time. Since I was a little kid I have looked at everything as "why can't I", instead of " I' can't". I had a teacher in the lower grades and she always said the word "can't" does not exist. What a wonderful teacher. Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. Leroy Eckert wrote: > Curt: > > One of these days I'm driving the Bird to CA. I gotta see what you are > doing. You are like myself, just like to tinker with stuff. > > Leroy Eckert > 1990 WB-40 > Niceville, FL. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Curt Sprenger > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > Gardner, > > Here is what I spent doing a swing radiator on the 1974 FC31. I did as > much of the work as I could. I cut the radiator mounting plate, welded > the hinges, etc. $66.00 for hinges/nuts/bolt/washers, etc. for swing > radiator and swing down pumper. $280 to rod out, test, modify the > radiator. $233.27 for hoses/clamps (top/lower/pump, etc.). $105.22 for > new belts. $197.32 for new transmission cooler hoses (this may not be > needed). This adds up to $882.31 total cost for the swing radiator > project. A shop charging $2,000 seems reasonable. > > The swing radiator project is not that bad. If you are handy, can cut > the radiator mounting plate or have someone cut it, can weld or have a > friend that welds (about 15 minutes of work at most to modify the > mounting plate) you can do this project. I spent very few hours of > actual work, about 30 hours of head scratching, chasing radiator tune up > & mod., hoses, other parts. > > See http://www.6url.com/0TZP <http://www.6url.com/0TZP> Go down to the > last entry, Swing.htm, for > a write up on the swing radiator project. > > Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > gcyeaw wrote: > > > There is an entry in the files section under Swing Radiator. It > > puts the cost between 1 and 2 thousand dollars. It isn't as easy as > > it sounds according to the file. > > Gardner > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Tom. You are right on the money about the swing radiator! I > > > consider it a must have on an FC. I don't know how much it costs > > to > > > do the conversion but I know it isn't cheap. I'm sure someone here > > > can tell us how much to have it done, or how costly if you can do > > it > > > yourself. In fact, Blue Bird made them standard equipment > > somewhere > > > along the line, not sure when. This is an excellent example of > > how > > > you will have a lower cost of ownership depending if you buy a bus > > > with or without a swing-out radiator. > > > > > > > > > James > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Remember that having a swing radiator will have an impact on the > > > > price as will having to remove the doghouse to check the valve > > > lash. > > > > > > > > Tom Warner > > > > Vernon Center,NY > > > > 1985 PT 40 > > > > > > > > At 11:31 PM 7/7/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Bruce, I was quoted $790.00 by Cashman Cat in Las Vegas NV > > where > > > I was > > > > >a repeat customer. Of course, Cat franchises are independently > > > owned > > > > >and operated. So prices, as well as services offered, will > > vary. I > > > > >suppose different markets may dictate varing prices as well. > > > > > > > > > >In any event, I think a range of $800 to $1100.00 is probably > > > realistic. > > > > > > > > > >When I have a chance I'll get a quote from Ring Power, the Cat > > > place > > > > >here in central FL, and see what they say. I need to get some > > new > > > Cat > > > > >hats anyway. > > > > > > > > > >James > > > > >78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > >Orange Lake FL > > > > > > > > > >--- In > > > > > > > > > > > > >"birdshill123" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James: You must have a bargain Cat dealer. I doubt most > > would > > > do all > > > > > > that work for $790.00 More like $1000 plus. If you figure > > > labor rates > > > > > > of $90.00 (could be higher) just doing the belts and hoses > > > could > > > > > > easily eat up $400 TO $500 . Doesnt leave much for the valve > > > > > > adjustment. They might charge $790 to do this on a > > > conventional truck > > > > > > but not a MH. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce: 1988 FC35 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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07-09-2006, 14:06
Post: #36
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Cost of ownership
Tom,
I can do the mechanics within reason. I actually went to school for auto mechanics back in the 60's. I spent two years in class learning from spark plugs to automatic transmissions. I could put Chevy 4-speed manual together blindfolded (the final test in one course). Several years after graduating I switched careers and went to work for IBM. So now I could do mechanical, hydraulic, and electrical system repair (older IBM printers used hydraulic systems to move the paper). Then I moved into telecommunications and wound up working for UPS in network design. The only problem is that I got a little older and a little less flexable. Reaching into those tough places, and actually getting my eyes to focus at the same time is becoming progressivly more difficult. I have to be realistic and figure that over the years I will need to rely more and more on others to do the work, and thus incur higher costs. But I still love the Wanterlodges and am motiveted to take over the care of one. I just need to do the math and get my DW to buy in. Gardner --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner wrote: > > Gardner dont get discouraged. But you do need to ask the "right" > questions if you hope to get a Bluebird that will suite you. > First can you do the majority of the work on the coach yourself ? If > you understand the mechanics such as brakes, chassis, engines etc > then you are a long way to doing it. Do you have the tools and space > to work in? Can you use a multimeter and read factory blueprints that > are available for all Bluebirds? If you can answer yes to these > questions then I would advise you to jump in and buy one for they are > not as complicated as some would have you believe. I would look for a > rust free southern coach that has not been butchered by inexperienced > maintenance. Just make sure you get someone that understands > Bluebirds and not only can work on them but can evaluate the various > systems on the coach with you. Mechanics can give you advise on the > engine and transmission but most of them are lost when it comes to > the other systems of a motorhome. One thing is in your favor now, > there are lots of bluebirds for sale and its a buyers market. Cash talks!!! > Tom Warner > Vernon Center,NY > 1985 PT 40 > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote: > > >Leroy, > >I am at the stage where I must rent a motorhome and 'see if we > >like it'. This is a tough sell because the first trip is almost sure > >to be a disaster unless I do a tremendous amount of homework and > >pick the right campgrounds and the right MH etc.etc. Too bad there > >aren't any Bluebirds on the rental scene. > >Gardner > > > >--- In > > > >"jwasnewski" > > > > > > > > -Yes sir I understand. I have been there. In my case the wife was > > > the driving force to buy a motor home. She didn't think I would > >like > > > it---for once she was wrong-----LOL > > > do not wake her up. > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In > > > > "gcyeaw" > > > > > > > > Leroy, > > > > I have a lot of work to do before I can get the DW to weigh in > >on > > > > the plan. Oh,I could probably go ahead and do it on my own, but > > > then > > > > I would become a 'full timer", alone, with half my income. > > > > > > > > You know the old expression about divorce. > > > > When you are married you get up in the morning, leave the > >house > > > > and kiss your wife good by. > > > > When you get divorced, you get up in the morning, leave your > > > wife > > > > and kiss your house good by! > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > --- In > > > > "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Gardner: > > > > > > > > > > Come on man, jump on in with the rest of us. You will be happy > > > you > > > > purchased the ol school bus. Just look for the best physical > > > > specimen before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > Side note----the wife wanted a Prevost. She said the Bluebird > > > > looked like a school bus. I said, you have traveled many a > >mile > > > in > > > > a school bus and you are still here. Now---I cannot get her out > >of > > > > the thing. > > > > > > > > > > You will love a Bird. It is a lifestyle. > > > > > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: gcyeaw > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 PM > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, Leroy, I can't disagree that if all I wanted was an > >RV, > > > > then > > > > > buying a new or slightly used motorhome would be the way to > >go. > > > > When > > > > > I saw an older Bluebird, it just looked so great. It was a > >true > > > > > classic with character and that is the attraction. It > >certainly > > > > > isn't the wisest investment if all you look at is the > >dollars. > > > > There > > > > > has to be a return in the enjoyment and satisfaction of > >caring > > > > for > > > > > and reviving such a machine. > > > > > > > > > > The reason I ask questions is to make sure I am going in > >with > > > my > > > > > eyes wide open. The more I learn the better I will be able > >to > > > > make a > > > > > wise choice when purchasing. And along the way I am meeting > >new > > > > > poeple on the forum, so it's already showing some reward. > > > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > > "Leroy Eckert" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you. When we purchased our bird we planned > >for > > > > > deferred maintenance. I guess if we knew the costs of owning > > > > these > > > > > beautiful machines up front we could become consultants and > > > > charge > > > > > $200.00/hr. Then we could be sued for misrepresentation. > >It's a > > > > > crazy world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > > > > 1990 WB-40 > > > > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:49 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, you sure a new class C wouldn't be a better choice? > > > Trying > > > > > to see the future with an antique vehicle is very irrational. > > > > > > MH > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: gcyeaw > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:54 AM > > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Cost of ownership > > > > > > > > > > > > James, > > > > > > Thanks for your data. There seems to be some controversy > >over > > > > > the > > > > > > level 2 maintenance cost, but based on an average speed of > > > say > > > > > 30 > > > > > > mph, that's 60,000 miles in 2000 hours. So if it's $800 or > > > > $1200 > > > > > > it's not much different spread out over that mileage/time. > > > Not > > > > > > knowing the cost of adding a swing radiator, it would seem > >to > > > > > pay > > > > > > for itself on the first broken belt or hose. I imagine > >that > > > > > removing > > > > > > the dog house and putting down a protective runner before > > > > > heading in > > > > > > for service might also save some labor and probably please > > > the > > > > > > service tech as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > >"orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner, here are some actual maintence costs for the > >model > > > > > > of 'Bird > > > > > > > that you are looking for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you take the 'Bird to an authorized Cat Center for > >oil > > > > and > > > > > > filter > > > > > > > changes it will cost $280.00 -- This will include all of > > > > your > > > > > oil > > > > > > > and fuel filters, a complete chassie lube and Cat brand > > > > motor > > > > > > oil. > > > > > > > Of course they do all the work, you watch them and start > > > the > > > > > bus > > > > > > > when needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are the parts cost: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 16 Qts. 15/40 Cat -- $34.40 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 - 1R-0713 -------- $11.20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 1P-0808 -------- $2.46 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 1R-0750 -------- $11.88 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - 8N9803 --------- $20.10 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total parts cost is $80.04 -- so, you can save two > >hundered > > > > > bucks > > > > > > > here if you do it yourself. This is a once a year task > >for > > > > > most > > > > > > > folks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tires, every five years between $2200 and $3000 > >depending > > > on > > > > > Tire > > > > > > > Brand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cat PM level 2 Maintainence -- every 2000 hours or > >10.000 > > > > > gallons > > > > > > of > > > > > > > fuel -- Costs $790 at a certified Cat Center and > >includes > > > > > > > everything. This service also includes the above listed > > > oil, > > > > > > filter > > > > > > > and lube service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) All new hoses and belts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Performance Analysis report > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) Steam clean engine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Valve lash adjustment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) cooling system service (flush and clean) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is pretty much your ongoing maintenience stuff. You > > > can > > > > > also > > > > > > > figure on a transmission service every thirty thousand > > > miles > > > > > with > > > > > > a > > > > > > > new filter and fluid for about $175.00 including labor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the stuff you can count on doing and what it > > > actually > > > > > > costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > > > Orange Lake, FL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > >"orbitalsolutions" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, Gardner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 > >year > > > > > old, or > > > > > > > > older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you > > > buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember we are talking about older buses here and no > >two > > > > > are > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > same. You will find "project buses" on the market that > > > may > > > > > need > > > > > > > > everything replaced on them from the motor and > > > electronics > > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a > >very > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > highly updated example will be offered for sale that > >will > > > > > need > > > > > > > next > > > > > > > > to nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on > > > > > > a "project > > > > > > > > bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and > > > > > everything > > > > > > else > > > > > > > > in the bus having been already updated and in good > > > working > > > > > order. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The > >project > > > > bus > > > > > at > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will > >not > > > be > > > > > your > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care > >by > > > > > folks > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > were enthusiastic owners. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years > > > old > > > > > with > > > > > > > > 15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced > >so > > > > > were > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All > > > belts > > > > > and > > > > > > > > hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a > > > year > > > > > > old. > > > > > > > > Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex > > > > pure > > > > > > sine- > > > > > > > > wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition > > > > Direct > > > > > TV > > > > > > > > system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less > >than > > > > a > > > > > > year > > > > > > > > old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 > > > > years > > > > > > > old. > > > > > > > > Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a > > > > year > > > > > > ago. > > > > > > > > Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair > >in. > > > > New > > > > > > > carpet > > > > > > > > about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get > >my > > > > > point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around > >25 > > > to > > > > > 27 > > > > > > > > thousand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now think about that "project bus" that has been > >sitting > > > > > behind > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, > >polished > > > it > > > > > up > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very > >different > > > > > > pictures > > > > > > > > arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very > > > > different > > > > > > cost > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be > > > able > > > > > to > > > > > > buy > > > > > > > > the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready > >to > > > > > spend > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > much again, and more, to make it into a good looking > > > > > reliable > > > > > > > runner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in > >your > > > > > price > > > > > > > > range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > 78FC33SB "Old School" > > > > > > > > Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and > >raining) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > > > "gcyeaw" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I do > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > responses I have received. I have been building a > > > > > spreadsheet > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage > >Bluebird. > > > > I > > > > > love > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems > >at > > > > my > > > > > > > leisure > > > > > > > > > prior to retirement. > > > > > > > > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for > >a > > > > > 1984 > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would > > > expect > > > > > to > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I > > > would > > > > > > expect > > > > > > > > > higher incidence of failure in in basic > >engine/transmit > > > > > > > > ion/chassis > > > > > > > > > systems over say, a 10 year time span.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for > > > routine > > > > > > > > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance > > > > > averaged > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine > > > > > rebuild) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am really trying to determine the value as the > >clock > > > > > > ticks > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, > >but > > > > so > > > > > was > > > > > > I > > > > > > > 40 > > > > > > > > > years ago! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gardner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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