COACH BATTERIES

[Michael]

Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical Technician for
Motorola for 25 years has taught me several things, as well as owning
bus conversions for over 20 years.

1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link to
reality.

2) KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to choose
from. :-)

I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about keeping
equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs have built
in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in redundancy
(parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if you
view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more money
and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's my
point.

Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be damaged just
by charging with your engine's alternator, some don't. The more
expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and high tech
the maintenance and charging system. Thin plates on starting
batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or the
other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the starting
and deep cycle.

I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery banks, huge
inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a generator to
use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were designed to
do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the straight
wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.

Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the DC side.
I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it is
probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small bit of
corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant that might
cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only take a
resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! It's very easy to
have that kind of resistance and not be able to find it, especially
with the added connections of a 6v system.

Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is superior to
running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you only look
at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then you too
are living in an ideal Engineers' world! There are Mean Time Between
Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if the 6v
golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does make
itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will bring you
down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you can go on.

If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and design
limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my book
for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus, unless
you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC) then your
bank will only be a few batteries.

Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you to
have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes is
636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify cost over
time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're just
renting them anyway so that has little meaning now.

Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do the
proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v parallel
systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts.

Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?

Michael & Tami
63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
82FC35 - parts
82 GMC RTS
Mesa, Az




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
wrote:
>
> I can't help but comment on this one.
>
> Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy currents
flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th internal
currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH and
therefore the cranking amps too.
>
> There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No need to
beat each other up.
>
> Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years experience
electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate engineer
but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools. In
summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Ron Thompson
> 1995 WLWB 42'
>
> hippieforever3 wrote: > I
am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you are
> > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read. Some
were
> > written by battery mfr. engineers.
>
> Show me one.
>
> > You are never supposed to mix old
> > and new battreies in a battery bank!
>
> Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or references.
>
> > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle 12
volt.
> They
> > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
>
> It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all 6 volt
> batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge, temperature
> extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt battery from
the
> same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use it in the
> same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
outperform
> the 6 volt with less maintenance.
>
> Regards,
> GPSGary
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> (cockyfox@...)
>

[Michael]

Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical Technician for
Motorola the last 25 years has taught me several things. (as well as
owning 4 busses)

1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link to
reality.

2) KISS - Keep is simple stupid.

3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to choose
from. :-)

I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about keeping
equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs have built
in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in redundancy
(parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if you
view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more money
and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's my
point, it's basically not as robust.

Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be damaged just
by charging with your engines alternator, some don't. The more
expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and high tech
the maintenance and charging system must be. Thin plates on starting
batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or the
other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the starting
and deep cycle batteries.

I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery banks, huge
inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a generator to
use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were designed to
do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the straight
wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.

Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the DC side.
I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it is
probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small bit of
corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant that might
cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only take a
resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! Much less
resistance if we discuss starting currents! It's very easy to have
that kind of resistance and not be able to find it, especially with
the added connections of a 6v system.

Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is superior to
running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you only look
at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then you too
are living in an ideal Engineer's world. There are Mean Time Between
Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if the 6v
golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does make
itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will bring you
down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you can go on.

If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and design
limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my book
for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus, unless
you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC) then your
bank will only be a few batteries.

Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you to
have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes is
636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify cost over
time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're just
renting them anyway!

Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do the
proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v parallel
systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts. So if you're looking
for "bang per buck", 12v lead acid is the way to go.. in MY opinion!

Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?

Michael & Tami
63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
82FC35 - parts
82 GMC RTS
Mesa, Az


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
wrote:
>
> I can't help but comment on this one.
>
> Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy currents
flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th internal
currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH and
therefore the cranking amps too.
>
> There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No need to
beat each other up.
>
> Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years experience
electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate engineer
but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools. In
summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Ron Thompson
> 1995 WLWB 42'
>
> hippieforever3 wrote: > I
am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you are
> > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read. Some
were
> > written by battery mfr. engineers.
>
> Show me one.
>
> > You are never supposed to mix old
> > and new battreies in a battery bank!
>
> Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or references.
>
> > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle 12
volt.
> They
> > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
>
> It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all 6 volt
> batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge, temperature
> extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt battery from
the
> same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use it in the
> same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
outperform
> the 6 volt with less maintenance.
>
> Regards,
> GPSGary
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> (cockyfox@...)
>

[Don Bradner]

On 8/11/2008 at 7:58 PM Michael wrote:

>Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do the
>proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
>monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v parallel
>systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts. So if you're looking
>for "bang per buck", 12v lead acid is the way to go.. in MY opinion!
>
>Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?

Nope, but once again you brought a lot of theory to a situation where practical
often doesn't have to compete with theoretical best.

We have people here at the oldest end with single batteries, where 6-volt is not
an option without engineering significant changes. So 12-volt is the best not
for any of the reasons supplied in terms of redundancy, connections, etc.

We have people here at the newest end who have 8Ds, or perhaps even 12Ds. 6-volt
is not an option there, either, again for none of the theoretical reasons, but
simply for supplier availability.

Then we have all of us in the middle, with 4 or more conventional batteries,
always an even number. That tends to make a lot of the theoretical reasons
against 6-volt moot.

My case is typical. The battery tray was designed for 6 Group 24 batteries, all
in parallel. That is a lot of connections, no matter how you do it - figure at
least a dozen cables. Depending on brand, a Group 24 is 75-80AH and can be had
in anything from deep-cycle to high CCA starting batteries.

Now assume you want more capacity. I do, and it is not for running air
conditioners going down the road. I boondock one 1+ month continuous every year,
plus additional shorter periods. I run a *lot* of electronics. I want to run the
generator as little as possible, with a high charge rate, into those batteries.

In the space I have, I challenge anyone to find an off-the-shelf solution that
will exceed the capacity of 6 6-volt batteries. At 210-220AH each depending on
brand, giving 630-660AH in the same footprint as the above 450-480AH.

Now guess what? This is accomplished with FEWER cables and connections! Don't
believe me? work it out. Three less cables, 6 less connections.

Finally, while our engineer says that a manufacturer can produce the same
deep-cycle characteristics in 12-volts that they (all) do in 6-volts, I just
don't see anything like that actually being manufactured. Perhaps it is true in
a 4D or larger, but there isn't space for plates that thick in any "standard"
size below a 4D.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

[Don Bradner]

On 8/11/2008 at 6:11 PM Michael wrote:

>Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you to
>have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
>low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes is
>636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
>closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
>weight?

Math error, I think. A standard 6-volt GC is ~823 cu in each. Not sure how/where
you got that 4003 for two.

[Michael]

Correct Don, I mistakenly used 8D diminsions in my calculations. So
we're looking at 1646 Cu In for two T-105's vs the 636 of the group-
29. And I'd call boony docking for a month a "special need". Mind
you, I'm not knocking the power/performance of the series/parallel 6v
battery system. Just the need for us "common" folk with "typical"
power needs. And being able to use what ever quanity battery bank you
need is also a benefit, 12v systems can be of any quantity. I'm
assuming people are adding up their requirements so they are matching
the need to the bank size.

Regards, Michael

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> On 8/11/2008 at 6:11 PM Michael wrote:
>
> >Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you to
> >have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
> >low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes is
> >636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
> >closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
> >weight?
>
> Math error, I think. A standard 6-volt GC is ~823 cu in each. Not
sure how/where you got that 4003 for two.
>

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

After 25 years as an elctro whizbang, u learned KISS and then
proceeded to take five paragraphs to say 12 volt bat's were mo betta.

Reagardless, after my 67 yrs on earth, I/m sticking to my TROJAN T-
105 six volts for my "house," LOL
Regards,
Hank
90SP36 still in hot Vegas












--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@...>
wrote:
>
> Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical Technician
for
> Motorola for 25 years has taught me several things, as well as
owning
> bus conversions for over 20 years.
>
> 1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link to
> reality.
>
> 2) KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
>
> 3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to choose
> from. :-)
>
> I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about keeping
> equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs have
built
> in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in redundancy
> (parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if you
> view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more money
> and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's my
> point.
>
> Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be damaged
just
> by charging with your engine's alternator, some don't. The more
> expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and high
tech
> the maintenance and charging system. Thin plates on starting
> batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or the
> other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the starting
> and deep cycle.
>
> I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery banks,
huge
> inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a generator
to
> use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were designed to
> do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
> connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the straight
> wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.
>
> Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the DC
side.
> I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it is
> probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small bit
of
> corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant that
might
> cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only take
a
> resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! It's very easy to
> have that kind of resistance and not be able to find it, especially
> with the added connections of a 6v system.
>
> Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is superior
to
> running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you only look
> at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then you
too
> are living in an ideal Engineers' world! There are Mean Time
Between
> Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if the 6v
> golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does make
> itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will bring
you
> down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you can go
on.
>
> If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and design
> limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my book
> for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus, unless
> you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC) then
your
> bank will only be a few batteries.
>
> Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you to
> have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
> low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes
is
> 636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
> closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
> weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify cost
over
> time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're just
> renting them anyway so that has little meaning now.
>
> Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do the
> proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
> monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v
parallel
> systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts.
>
> Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?
>
> Michael & Tami
> 63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
> 78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
> 82FC35 - parts
> 82 GMC RTS
> Mesa, Az
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
> wrote:
> >
> > I can't help but comment on this one.
> >
> > Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy currents
> flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th internal
> currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH and
> therefore the cranking amps too.
> >
> > There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No need
to
> beat each other up.
> >
> > Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years experience
> electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate
engineer
> but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools. In
> summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
> >
> > Just my two cents.
> >
> > Ron Thompson
> > 1995 WLWB 42'
> >
> > hippieforever3 wrote: > I
> am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you are
> > > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read. Some
> were
> > > written by battery mfr. engineers.
> >
> > Show me one.
> >
> > > You are never supposed to mix old
> > > and new battreies in a battery bank!
> >
> > Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or references.
> >
> > > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle 12
> volt.
> > They
> > > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
> >
> > It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all 6
volt
> > batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge,
temperature
> > extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt battery
from
> the
> > same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use it in
the
> > same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
> outperform
> > the 6 volt with less maintenance.
> >
> > Regards,
> > GPSGary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> > 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> > (cockyfox@)
> >
>

[Michael]

Now Hank.. I used that many words so you'd know I did NOT say 12v is
better than 6v. I said 12v batteries would be more appealing to
older coaches with less room for batteries. They are easier to deal
with in terms of weight, maintenance, etc.. Unless you have a big
nice tray that slides out to inspect your batteries...

Michael
78FC35
(hotter in Phx) hee hee hee

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> After 25 years as an elctro whizbang, u learned KISS and then
> proceeded to take five paragraphs to say 12 volt bat's were mo
betta.
>
> Reagardless, after my 67 yrs on earth, I/m sticking to my TROJAN T-
> 105 six volts for my "house," LOL
> Regards,
> Hank
> 90SP36 still in hot Vegas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical Technician
> for
> > Motorola for 25 years has taught me several things, as well as
> owning
> > bus conversions for over 20 years.
> >
> > 1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link to
> > reality.
> >
> > 2) KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
> >
> > 3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to
choose
> > from. :-)
> >
> > I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about keeping
> > equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs have
> built
> > in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in
redundancy
> > (parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if you
> > view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more
money
> > and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's my
> > point.
> >
> > Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be damaged
> just
> > by charging with your engine's alternator, some don't. The more
> > expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and high
> tech
> > the maintenance and charging system. Thin plates on starting
> > batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or the
> > other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the
starting
> > and deep cycle.
> >
> > I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery banks,
> huge
> > inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a generator
> to
> > use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were designed
to
> > do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
> > connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the
straight
> > wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.
> >
> > Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the DC
> side.
> > I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it is
> > probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small bit
> of
> > corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant that
> might
> > cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only
take
> a
> > resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! It's very easy
to
> > have that kind of resistance and not be able to find it,
especially
> > with the added connections of a 6v system.
> >
> > Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is
superior
> to
> > running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you only
look
> > at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then you
> too
> > are living in an ideal Engineers' world! There are Mean Time
> Between
> > Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if the
6v
> > golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does make
> > itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will bring
> you
> > down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you can
go
> on.
> >
> > If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and design
> > limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my
book
> > for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus,
unless
> > you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC) then
> your
> > bank will only be a few batteries.
> >
> > Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows you
to
> > have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost is
> > low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery consumes
> is
> > 636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
> > closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
> > weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify cost
> over
> > time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're just
> > renting them anyway so that has little meaning now.
> >
> > Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do
the
> > proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
> > monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v
> parallel
> > systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts.
> >
> > Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?
> >
> > Michael & Tami
> > 63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
> > 78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
> > 82FC35 - parts
> > 82 GMC RTS
> > Mesa, Az
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I can't help but comment on this one.
> > >
> > > Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy
currents
> > flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th internal
> > currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH and
> > therefore the cranking amps too.
> > >
> > > There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No
need
> to
> > beat each other up.
> > >
> > > Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years experience
> > electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate
> engineer
> > but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools. In
> > summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
> > >
> > > Just my two cents.
> > >
> > > Ron Thompson
> > > 1995 WLWB 42'
> > >
> > > hippieforever3 wrote: > I
> > am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you are
> > > > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read. Some
> > were
> > > > written by battery mfr. engineers.
> > >
> > > Show me one.
> > >
> > > > You are never supposed to mix old
> > > > and new battreies in a battery bank!
> > >
> > > Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or
references.
> > >
> > > > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > > > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle 12
> > volt.
> > > They
> > > > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
> > >
> > > It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all 6
> volt
> > > batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge,
> temperature
> > > extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt battery
> from
> > the
> > > same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use it in
> the
> > > same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
> > outperform
> > > the 6 volt with less maintenance.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > GPSGary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> > > 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> > > (cockyfox@)
> > >
> >
>

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

Hey Michael!
You are right.........it is Hotter in Phoenix.

What we need is new battery technology to help with this energy
crisis.
In the meantime, when those four 12 volt house batteries in your FC
crap out....just replace them with TWO six volt TROJANS T105's....you
will be very happy! LOL
I bet you like that FC...I really liked my 80FC31!!! They are
bulletproof!
Take care.
Hank
90SP36



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@...>
wrote:
>
> Now Hank.. I used that many words so you'd know I did NOT say 12v
is
> better than 6v. I said 12v batteries would be more appealing to
> older coaches with less room for batteries. They are easier to
deal
> with in terms of weight, maintenance, etc.. Unless you have a big
> nice tray that slides out to inspect your batteries...
>
> Michael
> 78FC35
> (hotter in Phx) hee hee hee
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
> wrote:
> >
> > After 25 years as an elctro whizbang, u learned KISS and then
> > proceeded to take five paragraphs to say 12 volt bat's were mo
> betta.
> >
> > Reagardless, after my 67 yrs on earth, I/m sticking to my TROJAN
T-
> > 105 six volts for my "house," LOL
> > Regards,
> > Hank
> > 90SP36 still in hot Vegas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical
Technician
> > for
> > > Motorola for 25 years has taught me several things, as well as
> > owning
> > > bus conversions for over 20 years.
> > >
> > > 1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link to
> > > reality.
> > >
> > > 2) KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
> > >
> > > 3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to
> choose
> > > from. :-)
> > >
> > > I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about keeping
> > > equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs have
> > built
> > > in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in
> redundancy
> > > (parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if
you
> > > view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more
> money
> > > and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's
my
> > > point.
> > >
> > > Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be damaged
> > just
> > > by charging with your engine's alternator, some don't. The
more
> > > expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and
high
> > tech
> > > the maintenance and charging system. Thin plates on starting
> > > batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or
the
> > > other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the
> starting
> > > and deep cycle.
> > >
> > > I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery banks,
> > huge
> > > inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a
generator
> > to
> > > use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were
designed
> to
> > > do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
> > > connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the
> straight
> > > wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.
> > >
> > > Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the DC
> > side.
> > > I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it is
> > > probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small
bit
> > of
> > > corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant that
> > might
> > > cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only
> take
> > a
> > > resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! It's very
easy
> to
> > > have that kind of resistance and not be able to find it,
> especially
> > > with the added connections of a 6v system.
> > >
> > > Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is
> superior
> > to
> > > running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you only
> look
> > > at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then
you
> > too
> > > are living in an ideal Engineers' world! There are Mean Time
> > Between
> > > Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if the
> 6v
> > > golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does make
> > > itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will
bring
> > you
> > > down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you can
> go
> > on.
> > >
> > > If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and design
> > > limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my
> book
> > > for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus,
> unless
> > > you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC) then
> > your
> > > bank will only be a few batteries.
> > >
> > > Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows
you
> to
> > > have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The cost
is
> > > low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery
consumes
> > is
> > > 636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area at
> > > closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much more
> > > weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify
cost
> > over
> > > time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're
just
> > > renting them anyway so that has little meaning now.
> > >
> > > Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to do
> the
> > > proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
> > > monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v
> > parallel
> > > systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts.
> > >
> > > Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?
> > >
> > > Michael & Tami
> > > 63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
> > > 78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
> > > 82FC35 - parts
> > > 82 GMC RTS
> > > Mesa, Az
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson

> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can't help but comment on this one.
> > > >
> > > > Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy
> currents
> > > flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th
internal
> > > currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH
and
> > > therefore the cranking amps too.
> > > >
> > > > There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No
> need
> > to
> > > beat each other up.
> > > >
> > > > Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years experience
> > > electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate
> > engineer
> > > but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools.
In
> > > summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
> > > >
> > > > Just my two cents.
> > > >
> > > > Ron Thompson
> > > > 1995 WLWB 42'
> > > >
> > > > hippieforever3 wrote: >
I
> > > am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you are
> > > > > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read.
Some
> > > were
> > > > > written by battery mfr. engineers.
> > > >
> > > > Show me one.
> > > >
> > > > > You are never supposed to mix old
> > > > > and new battreies in a battery bank!
> > > >
> > > > Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or
> references.
> > > >
> > > > > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > > > > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle
12
> > > volt.
> > > > They
> > > > > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
> > > >
> > > > It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all 6
> > volt
> > > > batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge,
> > temperature
> > > > extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt battery
> > from
> > > the
> > > > same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use it
in
> > the
> > > > same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
> > > outperform
> > > > the 6 volt with less maintenance.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > GPSGary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> > > > 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> > > > (cockyfox@)
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Michael]

Hey Hank.. I think comparing the temp in Phx vs Vegas is like
comparing 6v vs 12v, it's just too similar to compare! hee hee hee.
Yes, I do love my 78FC35. I'm very demanding on my vehicles and take
them off road camping a lot. I'm not one to pull into a KOA very
often and almost always pull a trailer. I can tolerate the hill
climbing as long as that MPG stays so high! hee hee hee

Currently the previous owner put 4-12v batteries in my coach so I'll
just compliment the house with one more I think. Having 2 12v in
parallel here in Arizona is pleanty of start power and the 3 in
parallel will work well for my boony docking needs.

I did have the pleasure of driving my friends 90SP36 from Texas to
Phx not long ago when he bought it in Florida. It was very nice, too
nice to take off road. I think you guys should insulate those
batteries on those as they were exposed to a lot of engine heat.
That or relocate them? And I was especially careful not to spill any
oil on the batteries. They were right under the fill tube!

Say, you're on this side of the world. Gonna make it to the
Southwest Bluebirds & Friends ralley in Quartzsite this January? I
just learned of it and have signed up.

Regards,
Michael & Tami
78FC35 "Putz'n Around"
Mesa, Az



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
wrote:
>
> Hey Michael!
> You are right.........it is Hotter in Phoenix.
>
> What we need is new battery technology to help with this energy
> crisis.
> In the meantime, when those four 12 volt house batteries in your FC
> crap out....just replace them with TWO six volt TROJANS
T105's....you
> will be very happy! LOL
> I bet you like that FC...I really liked my 80FC31!!! They are
> bulletproof!
> Take care.
> Hank
> 90SP36
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Now Hank.. I used that many words so you'd know I did NOT say 12v
> is
> > better than 6v. I said 12v batteries would be more appealing to
> > older coaches with less room for batteries. They are easier to
> deal
> > with in terms of weight, maintenance, etc.. Unless you have a
big
> > nice tray that slides out to inspect your batteries...
> >
> > Michael
> > 78FC35
> > (hotter in Phx) hee hee hee
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Jay Hannigan"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > After 25 years as an elctro whizbang, u learned KISS and then
> > > proceeded to take five paragraphs to say 12 volt bat's were mo
> > betta.
> > >
> > > Reagardless, after my 67 yrs on earth, I/m sticking to my
TROJAN
> T-
> > > 105 six volts for my "house," LOL
> > > Regards,
> > > Hank
> > > 90SP36 still in hot Vegas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mike.putz@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Very interesting Thread. Being an Electro-Mechanical
> Technician
> > > for
> > > > Motorola for 25 years has taught me several things, as well
as
> > > owning
> > > > bus conversions for over 20 years.
> > > >
> > > > 1) The definition of a Technician - an Engineer's only link
to
> > > > reality.
> > > >
> > > > 2) KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
> > > >
> > > > 3) The nice things about "standards" is there are so many to
> > choose
> > > > from. :-)
> > > >
> > > > I'm no battery expert but do know a thing or two about
keeping
> > > > equipment running for long periods of time. Some designs
have
> > > built
> > > > in weaknesses (series circuits), and some have built in
> > redundancy
> > > > (parallel circuits). So 12v parallel systems are superior if
> you
> > > > view them from a "survival" stance. Sure you can throw more
> > money
> > > > and more batteries into a 6v battery system, but then there's
> my
> > > > point.
> > > >
> > > > Some batteries do have memory, some don't. Some can be
damaged
> > > just
> > > > by charging with your engine's alternator, some don't. The
> more
> > > > expensive and high tech the battery, the more expensive and
> high
> > > tech
> > > > the maintenance and charging system. Thin plates on starting
> > > > batteries, thick on deep cycle, etc I do say stick to one or
> the
> > > > other; hybrids do both fair but is not specialized as the
> > starting
> > > > and deep cycle.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a fan of putting thousands of dollars in battery
banks,
> > > huge
> > > > inverters, and special chargers just to avoid running a
> generator
> > > to
> > > > use my AC's down the road. That's what generators were
> designed
> > to
> > > > do. What our Engineer friend was trying to say is that ANY
> > > > connection is not as good as a straight wire. And if the
> > straight
> > > > wire is not the correct gauge even it can be an issue.
> > > >
> > > > Running 20 amps on an inverter is at least 200+ amps on the
DC
> > > side.
> > > > I'm not going into details about efficiencies, etc.. but it
is
> > > > probably more like 220+ amps. At those currents even a small
> bit
> > > of
> > > > corrosion, dirt, wrong wire size, or any other contaminant
that
> > > might
> > > > cause resistance is devastating. Do you realize it would only
> > take
> > > a
> > > > resistance of .005 ohms to loose an entire volt! It's very
> easy
> > to
> > > > have that kind of resistance and not be able to find it,
> > especially
> > > > with the added connections of a 6v system.
> > > >
> > > > Running multiple batteries in a series/parallel config is
> > superior
> > > to
> > > > running the 12v counter parts in parallel... IF..IF.. you
only
> > look
> > > > at performance! If you do believe it is the BEST choice then
> you
> > > too
> > > > are living in an ideal Engineers' world! There are Mean Time
> > > Between
> > > > Failure (MTBF) numbers that needs to be looked at. Even if
the
> > 6v
> > > > golf battery is superior to a cheap 12v deep cycle it does
make
> > > > itself vulnerable simply by design. A bad 6v battery will
> bring
> > > you
> > > > down. A bad 12v battery simply needs to be removed and you
can
> > go
> > > on.
> > > >
> > > > If you compare EVERY THING, the cost, size, weight, and
design
> > > > limitations it doesn't make 6v batteries very appealing in my
> > book
> > > > for the small spaces available on the older coaches. Plus,
> > unless
> > > > you have special needs (long dry camping or running an AC)
then
> > > your
> > > > bank will only be a few batteries.
> > > >
> > > > Using cheap Walmart MAXX-29 batteries for $76 a piece allows
> you
> > to
> > > > have 3 batteries in parallel for a rating of 375 ah. The
cost
> is
> > > > low, the space and weight are low. The area the battery
> consumes
> > > is
> > > > 636 cu in each. The 6v equivalent (2 batteries) has an area
at
> > > > closer to 4003 cu in, over 6 times more area and how much
more
> > > > weight? How much more cost? I know you can try to justify
> cost
> > > over
> > > > time, but with the prorating on batteries these days, we're
> just
> > > > renting them anyway so that has little meaning now.
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line is for most people who will not take the time to
do
> > the
> > > > proper maintenance, invest big dollars in expensive
> > > > monitoring/charging systems, or have special needs, then 12v
> > > parallel
> > > > systems ARE superior to their 6v counter parts.
> > > >
> > > > Hope I didn't put too much fuel on the fire?
> > > >
> > > > Michael & Tami
> > > > 63FC35 - "Freedom Bus"
> > > > 78FC35 - "Putz'n Around"
> > > > 82FC35 - parts
> > > > 82 GMC RTS
> > > > Mesa, Az
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't help but comment on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Old and new batteries mixed would most likely have eddy
> > currents
> > > > flowing between the batteries due to deterioration of th
> internal
> > > > currents and would definitely have reducing effect on the AH
> and
> > > > therefore the cranking amps too.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are good points on both sides of this discussion. No
> > need
> > > to
> > > > beat each other up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh by the way my qualifications are over 30 years
experience
> > > > electronics with an engineering background. Not a graduate
> > > engineer
> > > > but definitely schooled in several good engineering schools.
> In
> > > > summary I was a practical applications electronic tech.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my two cents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron Thompson
> > > > > 1995 WLWB 42'
> > > > >
> > > > > hippieforever3 wrote:
>
> I
> > > > am not an engineer ( nor did I play one on TV) but what you
are
> > > > > > suggesting goes against avery article I have ever read.
> Some
> > > > were
> > > > > > written by battery mfr. engineers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Show me one.
> > > > >
> > > > > > You are never supposed to mix old
> > > > > > and new battreies in a battery bank!
> > > > >
> > > > > Why??? Please use science, physics or electronics or
> > references.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 6 volt golf cart batteries will
> > > > > > give you longer life than any common wet cell deep cycle
> 12
> > > > volt.
> > > > > They
> > > > > > are sturdy and made to handle frequent discharge.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is very likely that the manufacturers design almost all
6
> > > volt
> > > > > batteries to withstand more abuse like 100% discharge,
> > > temperature
> > > > > extremes and vibration. However if you get a 12 volt
battery
> > > from
> > > > the
> > > > > same manufacturer, built to the same design spec and use
it
> in
> > > the
> > > > > same application, the 12 volt system will last longer and
> > > > outperform
> > > > > the 6 volt with less maintenance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > GPSGary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron Thompson -Waller, Tx.
> > > > > 1995 WLWB 42'Blue Bird
> > > > > (cockyfox@)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>