'85FC31 Security Light issue... update!

[erniecarpet@...]

This sounds like a problem that needs Ralph.

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, Tx

---

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[James]

Thanks to all for the advice and I have an update on the issue as it
is not solely associated with just the security light switch.

1) I have narrowed the cause of the problem to just the front and rear
landing lights. I was incorrect in my original diagnosis when I said I
could toggle all of the lights individually. Driving lights and rear
parking lights toggle without issue. However, both the front and rear
lights trigger the issue.

2) To answer Jim's question, the issue occurs on battery power, when
using the generator and when plugged into shore power. All batteries
were replaced with mew Trojan T-105 in Nov '07. All individual
batteries check out with 6V+, system is 12V+ and the grounds are
solid. Even when I lose power, the batteries meter out a solid 12V+,
almost like they're isolated from the whole issue.

3) As Bill suggested, I tried removing the relay for the front landing
lights (both solenoid and relay located in the left rear load center
above driver's side bed), toggled the dash switch and lost power
throughout the coach again.

4) Gregory asked about the possibility of the issue being a duplicate
of the results from triggering the AT switch. However, the AT switch
does not kill the coach lighting system and I am able to start and
operate the engine without problem.

5) Here is a list of other things within the coach that work and don't
when the issue is triggered: Top two A/C packs are inoperative;
Water-pump is inop; Dash radio is inop; Microwave works; Engine,
headlights and driving lights work; Digitell works. Everything that
is inop when issue is at hand comes back to life when the system
"resets" itself.

6) The lights are OEM and were never upgraded to a brighter set.

I am not an electrician, nor did I sleep at a Holiday-Inn Express last
night. I can scan in my load center schematics if that would help
anyone who is.

The rear landing light solenoid and relay are located in the left,
front load center (mid-coach, over the driver's side couch, next to
the Master Electronics shut-off switch) which raises a question. The
chances of having two relays or two solenoids being bad at two
different load centers seem to be statistically very small.

Therefore, is there a common power feed to the landing light sets that
might be grounding? If so, where might it be? Basically, what is
causing the instant power kill and then the time delay before it
resets? Alternatively, where else could my Gremlin be living?

Thanks to everyone,
Please call me "JR"
'85FC31-SB aka: "The Short Bus"

[pattypape]

Jr,

This is going to require the use of your major detective skills.
Even your electrical drawings may not help.
look for frayed wires in the troubled circuits, check the lights
sockets/bulbs, that seem to cause this trouble.
look closely at the bay doors that open and close, possibly a
short or pinched wire at the docking lights.....??????....
Bosch relays are very reliable, They just plug into a socket
so try to substitute a known good relay.
Disconnect lights until the problem goes away,,,,,

"when the issue is triggered: Top two A/C packs are inoperative;
> Water-pump is inop; Dash radio is inop; Microwave works; Engine,
> headlights and driving lights work; Digitell works."

In your statement are you referring to the roof Air Conditioners???
And Microwave............
The AC voltage and the DC voltage are isolated from each other.
Two different animals...............

Bill 88 FC Michigan


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for the advice and I have an update on the issue as it
> is not solely associated with just the security light switch.
>
> 1) I have narrowed the cause of the problem to just the front and
rear
> landing lights. I was incorrect in my original diagnosis when I
said I
> could toggle all of the lights individually. Driving lights and rear
> parking lights toggle without issue. However, both the front and
rear
> lights trigger the issue.
>
> 2) To answer Jim's question, the issue occurs on battery power, when
> using the generator and when plugged into shore power. All batteries
> were replaced with mew Trojan T-105 in Nov '07. All individual
> batteries check out with 6V+, system is 12V+ and the grounds are
> solid. Even when I lose power, the batteries meter out a solid
12V+,
> almost like they're isolated from the whole issue.
>
> 3) As Bill suggested, I tried removing the relay for the front
landing
> lights (both solenoid and relay located in the left rear load center
> above driver's side bed), toggled the dash switch and lost power
> throughout the coach again.
>
> 4) Gregory asked about the possibility of the issue being a
duplicate
> of the results from triggering the AT switch. However, the AT
switch
> does not kill the coach lighting system and I am able to start and
> operate the engine without problem.
>
> 5) Here is a list of other things within the coach that work and
don't
> when the issue is triggered: Top two A/C packs are inoperative;
> Water-pump is inop; Dash radio is inop; Microwave works; Engine,
> headlights and driving lights work; Digitell works. Everything that
> is inop when issue is at hand comes back to life when the system
> "resets" itself.
>
> 6) The lights are OEM and were never upgraded to a brighter set.
>
> I am not an electrician, nor did I sleep at a Holiday-Inn Express
last
> night. I can scan in my load center schematics if that would help
> anyone who is.
>
> The rear landing light solenoid and relay are located in the left,
> front load center (mid-coach, over the driver's side couch, next to
> the Master Electronics shut-off switch) which raises a question.
The
> chances of having two relays or two solenoids being bad at two
> different load centers seem to be statistically very small.
>
> Therefore, is there a common power feed to the landing light sets
that
> might be grounding? If so, where might it be? Basically, what is
> causing the instant power kill and then the time delay before it
> resets? Alternatively, where else could my Gremlin be living?
>
> Thanks to everyone,
> Please call me "JR"
> '85FC31-SB aka: "The Short Bus"
>

[James]

Bill:

Thanks again for the help. I'll get out my Sherlock Holmes outfit and
see what I can come up with.

Yes, I mentioned the two roof airs (Carrier AirV's, new as of 3 years
ago) because they become inop when the issue is triggered. I know
they are 120v AC, which is why I am baffled to explain their being
affected by the bug, especially since the Microwave (also 120v AC) works!

This is why I was asking if there is a big master electrical breaker
somewhere that I'm not aware of. I hate electrical issues and I hate
plumbing issues and this one is just a pain in the rear.

However, to quote my doctor whenever I tell him my knee hurts, he
says, "Don't do that." So, I know I have a great coach, with unusable
landing lights. If I don't hit the switches, I wont have the problem.
But I don't like having this problem. :-D

I'll dig further.

Thanks,
JR
'85FC31' "The Short Bus"

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "pattypape"
wrote:
>
> Jr,
>
> This is going to require the use of your major detective skills.
> Even your electrical drawings may not help.
> look for frayed wires in the troubled circuits, check the lights
> sockets/bulbs, that seem to cause this trouble.
> look closely at the bay doors that open and close, possibly a
> short or pinched wire at the docking lights.....??????....
> Bosch relays are very reliable, They just plug into a socket
> so try to substitute a known good relay.
> Disconnect lights until the problem goes away,,,,,
>
> "when the issue is triggered: Top two A/C packs are inoperative;
> > Water-pump is inop; Dash radio is inop; Microwave works; Engine,
> > headlights and driving lights work; Digitell works."
>
> In your statement are you referring to the roof Air Conditioners???
> And Microwave............
> The AC voltage and the DC voltage are isolated from each other.
> Two different animals...............
>
> Bill 88 FC Michigan

[James]

Ernie:

Thanks for the advice and if Ralph is reading this, would you happen
to be down near Fort Myers, FL anytime soon? Beautiful weather were
having this time of year!!

JR Torrico
'85FC31' "The Short Bus"
N Fort Myers, FL

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, erniecarpet@... wrote:
>
> This sounds like a problem that needs Ralph.
>
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Weatherford, Tx

[pattypape]

There could be a relationship between the roof air and the DC wiring.
On our 88 FC there are remote DC switches to turn on the AC's or
electric heaters, located left side above the Driver seat.
These are DC powered relays to turn on AC (Alternating Current) power.
BB used this method in a few places on our Bird.

But this may be getting us off track of the real issue????

Bill 88 FC



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> Thanks again for the help. I'll get out my Sherlock Holmes outfit
and
> see what I can come up with.
>
> Yes, I mentioned the two roof airs (Carrier AirV's, new as of 3
years
> ago) because they become inop when the issue is triggered. I know
> they are 120v AC, which is why I am baffled to explain their being
> affected by the bug, especially since the Microwave (also 120v AC)
works!
>
> This is why I was asking if there is a big master electrical breaker
> somewhere that I'm not aware of. I hate electrical issues and I
hate
> plumbing issues and this one is just a pain in the rear.
>
> However, to quote my doctor whenever I tell him my knee hurts, he
> says, "Don't do that." So, I know I have a great coach, with
unusable
> landing lights. If I don't hit the switches, I wont have the
problem.
> But I don't like having this problem. :-D
>
> I'll dig further.
>
> Thanks,
> JR
> '85FC31' "The Short Bus"
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "pattypape"
> wrote:
> >
> > Jr,
> >
> > This is going to require the use of your major detective skills.
> > Even your electrical drawings may not help.
> > look for frayed wires in the troubled circuits, check the lights
> > sockets/bulbs, that seem to cause this trouble.
> > look closely at the bay doors that open and close, possibly a
> > short or pinched wire at the docking lights.....??????....
> > Bosch relays are very reliable, They just plug into a socket
> > so try to substitute a known good relay.
> > Disconnect lights until the problem goes away,,,,,
> >
> > "when the issue is triggered: Top two A/C packs are inoperative;
> > > Water-pump is inop; Dash radio is inop; Microwave works; Engine,
> > > headlights and driving lights work; Digitell works."
> >
> > In your statement are you referring to the roof Air
Conditioners???
> > And Microwave............
> > The AC voltage and the DC voltage are isolated from each other.
> > Two different animals...............
> >
> > Bill 88 FC Michigan
>

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Hello JR:

We are having snow flurries in Oklahoma today and it is BRRRRR! Ok, so not
as cold as the frozen North but still brrrr.

One important thing to note here is the old axiom of "little power moves
big power." The A/C units and electric heaters are picked by heavy duty
relays that is controlled by 12 vdc. The landing lights relays are
controlled by 12 vdc. So now the 120 VAC circuits are removed from the
equation so lets think "control voltage" and that control voltage being 12
vdc we need to start narrowing down to which part of the dc control system
goes haywire when it's button is pushed. There are 2 load centers that
control the front and rear landing lights. Both are on the drivers side,
one in the rear load center and the other in the front load center.

Some a questions
1. Is the summer/winter switch in the winter position?
2. Are the three selector switches over the drivers head off or on?
3. With the Coach in reverse and the back up light switch on the dash to
on, do the halogen back up lights work?
4. Do the front driving lights come on?
5. do both the front and rear landing lights not work? and have you tried
them separately and do you hear a loud "click" when the landing light
switch is switched to on?

There is no single "source" of power for each of these systems but there
may be a single 12vdc control voltage source for the 4 or 5 relays that
come into play.

Since the digitell works during the outage, we can pretty much eliminate
the 12vdc filter unit under the sofa, that is the long tall white unit
usually near the back. ALL 12vdc going to the electronics, ie: radios, cb,
clocks, times, report center in Galley go through this filter unit.

I know this is long winded but process of elimination can be arduous. Check
the open contact relay in the left front load center, (drivers side small
overhead compartment near the bath wall, in the Salon) to be sure nothing
as laying across the exposed contacts.

There are 2 large circuit breakers at the base of the steering column, I am
not talking about the Master 12 vdc cut off switch.

All this is off the top, sorry, I need to g out to my Coach and get the
prints and will do so in a bit.

I am thinking there is one control wire that is bare, has a connector
touching or perhaps a shorted relay coil going to ground when switched.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma

At 03:43 PM 1/31/2008 +0000, you wrote:
>Ernie:
>
>Thanks for the advice and if Ralph is reading this, would you happen
>to be down near Fort Myers, FL anytime soon? Beautiful weather were
>having this time of year!!
>
>JR Torrico
>'85FC31' "The Short Bus"
>N Fort Myers, FL
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, erniecarpet@... wrote:
> >
> > This sounds like a problem that needs Ralph.
> >
> > Ernie Ekberg
> > 83PT40
> > Weatherford, Tx
>
>

[James]

Hi Ralph:

Good to hear from you and I sincerely appreciate your input. I will
try what you suggest tomorrow but have one question: Are you referring
to the roof mount Air Conditioner switches above the driver (my FC31'
has two roof airs)?

Also, even though the Digitell works when the issue is present, the
radio and CB do not. If they all go through the 12VDC filter you
mentioned, we may have another problem. I know the radio was replaced
my the previous owner, but the CB is OEM and in its original spot.

I'll run through these things tomorrow and write back with my
findings. Stay warm and think sunny thoughts!

Thanks,
JR
85FC31 "The Short Bus"
N Fort Myers, FL

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
wrote:
>
> Hello JR:
>
> We are having snow flurries in Oklahoma today and it is BRRRRR! Ok,
so not
> as cold as the frozen North but still brrrr.
>
> One important thing to note here is the old axiom of "little power
moves
> big power." The A/C units and electric heaters are picked by heavy duty
> relays that is controlled by 12 vdc. The landing lights relays are
> controlled by 12 vdc. So now the 120 VAC circuits are removed from the
> equation so lets think "control voltage" and that control voltage
being 12
> vdc we need to start narrowing down to which part of the dc control
system
> goes haywire when it's button is pushed. There are 2 load centers that
> control the front and rear landing lights. Both are on the drivers
side,
> one in the rear load center and the other in the front load center.
>
> Some a questions
> 1. Is the summer/winter switch in the winter position?
> 2. Are the three selector switches over the drivers head off or on?
> 3. With the Coach in reverse and the back up light switch on the
dash to
> on, do the halogen back up lights work?
> 4. Do the front driving lights come on?
> 5. do both the front and rear landing lights not work? and have you
tried
> them separately and do you hear a loud "click" when the landing light
> switch is switched to on?
>
> There is no single "source" of power for each of these systems but
there
> may be a single 12vdc control voltage source for the 4 or 5 relays that
> come into play.
>
> Since the digitell works during the outage, we can pretty much
eliminate
> the 12vdc filter unit under the sofa, that is the long tall white unit
> usually near the back. ALL 12vdc going to the electronics, ie:
radios, cb,
> clocks, times, report center in Galley go through this filter unit.
>
> I know this is long winded but process of elimination can be
arduous. Check
> the open contact relay in the left front load center, (drivers side
small
> overhead compartment near the bath wall, in the Salon) to be sure
nothing
> as laying across the exposed contacts.
>
> There are 2 large circuit breakers at the base of the steering
column, I am
> not talking about the Master 12 vdc cut off switch.
>
> All this is off the top, sorry, I need to g out to my Coach and get the
> prints and will do so in a bit.
>
> I am thinking there is one control wire that is bare, has a connector
> touching or perhaps a shorted relay coil going to ground when switched.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma