Filter Minders for Dummies

[pgchin]

(03-27-2013 19:25)Itchintogo Wrote:  

(03-27-2013 10:17)pgchin Wrote:  [quote='al perna' pid='1174' dateline='1364353056']

Hey Al,
I know of others that do not have an FM issue. It is NOT that prevalent to have issues. Some are 8v's or 500hp s60's DDEC IV, remember mine is a 475 DDEC III.....not sure what the differences are but David B and I once counted 150TSL's between his year and mine when the DD site was open to mere mortals. The only other 475HP I know of having issues is Kurt H's and he runs a stainless exhaust with a straight pipe so I'm not surprised. I learned a long time ago from some professional tuners that engines are nothing more than big air pumps, you can port'em, polish intakes, mess with jets or ECM's, chip'em, flow the heads,etc but it always boils down to one thing, the factory setup is designed to work in a "multitude of temps, altitudes, atmospherics, and use case scenarios. And the drive train it has. Every time you "touch" one of the parameters like intake, exhaust, etc you mess up another parameter in the factory use case. Air flows better in the area you touch, but NOT in the other areas.
else we can do scientifically, that info would be data FACTS and we could then react to it. By the way, if they had found issues, then they would have made a hand written change to the inlet / exhaust prints for the line. As I already stated, no EC's on my prints on my 95 so 90-95 shows NO air inlet issues. I have both 8v and s60 inlet / exhaust prints in my factory deck.

You nailed it Pete. A few things in life I have learned are:
1. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
2. You can't get something for nothing on an internal combustion engine.
3. For every action there is a reaction.
4. Too much scotch or bourbon and you will make poor choices! Hahaha!

Cue the ukuleles!

Gary
My sincere apologies for this late reply as it being a holiday weekend I've been off the forum! And Donna is NOT particularly happy with me at the moment as I type this! Thanks for the very kind and HUMBLING words! Engineers are just plain ole pocket protector gear heads so sometimes we get a bit wordy. I have been accused, and rightfully so, of having a habit of rewriting War and Peace! Number 3, thank you for taking 4 words to sum up how the universe scientifically works! I Value your tutor-age please!!!!! I NEED to be briefer!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

#4) yep given this holiday weekend I started early and did #4 last night with Bourbon, tonight, its Scotch!!!!!! Happy holiday to ALL if this is your holiday, otherwise happy weekend to all others!!!!!!!!

[Arcticdude]

Jen,

Al is referring to the intake side of things on the curbside. Take a peak through the upper (and louvered) door on that side and tell us what you see. I'm going to look at mine this evening.

[davidbrady]

Al,

For clarity, this is the filter to stay away from: Wix 46580 or Napa 6580. The CFM rating isn't half of what the Series-60 requires. Put this in front of an S-60's intake and the fuel will be ramped up do to oxygen starvation and the exhaust temps will escalate, meanwhile the filter will be feeding bits of cellulose to the turbo! Drawing 1170 CFM thru this filter will likely cause engine damage. Stay away!

PARTS DETAIL
Principal Application: Caterpillar Stationary Engines
Style: Air Filter Panel
Service: Cabin Air
Length: 15.000
Width: 15.000
Height: 5.500
CFM: 570

[pgchin]

(03-31-2013 12:11)davidmbrady Wrote:  Al,

For clarity, this is the filter to stay away from: Wix 46580 or Napa 6580. The CFM rating isn't half of what the Series-60 requires. Put this in front of an S-60's intake and the fuel will be ramped up do to oxygen starvation and the exhaust temps will escalate, meanwhile the filter will be feeding bits of cellulose to the turbo! Drawing 1170 CFM thru this filter will likely cause engine damage. Stay away!

PARTS DETAIL
Principal Application: Caterpillar Stationary Engines
Style: Air Filter Panel
Service: Cabin Air
Length: 15.000
Width: 15.000
Height: 5.500
CFM: 570

David,
Ok, first off happy holiday to the WAGU spaghetti factory if this is your weekend!!!!!! IF not Happy weekend!

second, I did TOO much celebration last night and lost the fight to a 12year old bottle of single malt scotch! So I am a bit SLOW so David I have some questions for you but I MAY be wrong so please treat me gently given my current zombie condition!!!!!!

Questions and Theory Que up the aflac duck please! HAHHHHH

So I run a 1/2 the required CFM air filter on an s60 turbo. Humm seat of the pants and well as actual performance goes up and I am as happy as a clam!!!! Fuel economy goes up too yeah!!!!!!! Why is that? OK here's my theory that you need to poke holes in please, I would appreciate it!

The s60 is an ECM controlled engine so the computer can compensate various conditions within its programming. A more restrictive air flow is sensed by the various sensors so the S60 ECM compensates by:
1) Leaning out the fuel mixture for better MPG
2) sensing the reduced inlet pressure so it spins up the turbo with more boost to compensate for it
3) Increased boost and the turbo being more active more time means more performance

Yeah I'm happy no? UGH well actually no, the above is correct but if you refer back to the science of Newtons third law (thanks Gary)
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/ne.../u2l4a.cfm

I am going to have to PAY for that increased performance. The cost of the turbo working more constantly and at higher boost will yield increased
heat as I am also running a leaner mixture through an already high compression diesel engine. That lean mixture coupled with the additional heat will eventually cause catastrophic consequences as the added heat and leaner mixture was NOT an s60 design point so I'll break a cam, throw a rod, burn up a wet sleeve oring, punch a hole in the head gasket, I don't know but SOMETHING will let loose, no?

Rationale:
The reason I bring this up is because last night as I was yacking with Donna and celebrating through the bottom of that scotch bottle, I was reminiscing about my bad boy days street racing on Long Island as a kid. I had a hopped up ss396 camaro and owned a gas station. A self taught mechanic learning the trade from professionals since I was 12 years old I experience Newtons 3rd law first hand. When I went to College only then did I realized it was his 3rd law: Anyway I had that ss396 leaned out and flowing BIG AIR.... it SCREAMED and I never lost a street race for $$$$ two months later I threw a rod through the block. My 65 year old mechanic partner said to me you dope, too lean, too hot go BOOM... now go pay for it ya smuck!
Addendum: Being the sneaky little angel I was and truly believed if you cant beat um, cheat um ....... I went down to my local chevy high performance dealer and ordered a 454 high performance boat engine short block. I had it bored, stroked, bearings polished, the works. I also took this ss396 high performance heads and had them flowed and blueprinted. I then painted the whole deal STOCK LOW PERFORMANCE ORANGE like a plain ol 396 325 HP engine. I had a RICH cab setup in the trunk and when I set up a race, I'd swap the carbs out so I would NOT RUN LEAN and blow it up again!;)rolleyes: Sneaky punk kid who is now a whiley old man! And yes, the moral of the story is I had to work 2 jobs to get enough money to pay for that new short block and performance work. There goes that dumb newtons law again...humm more work to make more money is the reaction to me being a DUMB uneducated punk know it all kid!

[davidbrady]

(03-31-2013 14:06)pgchin Wrote:  I did TOO much celebration last night and lost the fight to a 12year old bottle of single malt scotch! So I am a bit SLOW so David I have some questions for you but I MAY be wrong so please treat me gently given my current zombie condition!!!!!!

Pete you crack me up as always big Bros.

Well played last night! You gotta watch that high octane imbibation (is that a word)! Hahaha! To much of that and you'll have your SI's mixed up with your CI's.

You Wile-E-Coyote, you're trying to pull one over on us aren't you?

Let's see if I can dredge up some good solid science and engineering to set the matter straight.

Compression Ignition (CI) engines (diesels) are fun to play with cause they run in wide air fuel mixture ratio, from 40:1 (lean) to 8:1 (rich) or lower.

The DDEC ECM doesn't have too many sensors for predicting the proper amount of fuel to deliver. All it has is throttle position sensor and a boost sensor. It runs open loop without a Lambda O2 sensor.

Under a specific load sensed by the TPS it wants to see a specific boost.

If a backyard mechanic plugs up the air intake by say, I don't know, installing an ultra restrictive air filter like the NAPA 6580 then the ECM is going to over fuel in an attempt to see the right boost pressure, right?

Exhaust temps will rise and if the driver lets it go to far, say in excess of 1250 deg F for an extended period of time he may melt a great big hole in a piston!

Unlike Spark Ignition (gasoline) engines, running lean on a diesel doesn't create engine damaging heat; it's the opposite but you know that you're just playing with us , running rich creates engine damaging heat.

When the intake is starved of oxygen by using a NAPA 6580 panel filter, the ECM will compensate by dumping in more fuel to increase boost. So you end up with a drop in efficiency because of the additional pumping losses and the injection of more fuel in an attempt to restore boost.

Let's say you leave your house in Florida for an 80 mile round trip and your pulling the toad. You're in cruise mode, right? So you're poking down the road at 60 to 62 mph has your apt to do.

Let's say you cut one of the 90 deg bends out of your stock intake system, your down to two 90's from three, and you mounted a diffuser to house your restrictive panel filter.

Well CI engines run without a throttle, right? This means that they aren't fighting to draw air against a vacuum created by a butterfly valve as spark ignition engines do. Turbo charged CI engines will always breath at least their full displacement of air.

The problem now is that the NAPA 6580 is more restrictive than the 90 deg bend you removed. What happens? Well the diesel is still trying to breath in it's full allotment of air, but now it's fighting a vacuum, in fact it's fighting a vacuum larger than the stock system! That 6580 is ruining any gains that removal of a 90 deg bend afforded. The diesel is now experiencing increased pumping losses.

We said before that all engines are just air pumps. Well, pumping air takes power and pumping against a vacuum sucks a lot of power and ruins efficiency and MPG goes down. NAPA 6580, no thanks! Stay away!

We know that a 90 deg bend is about 0.75 (in. H20) and the stock LXi intake system has two (plus the air filter). The stock ECO-SM air filter has a 4 (in. H20) drop at 1170 CFM. I don't know what the NAPA 6580 does at 1170 because it's only rated for 570 CFM; however, we can be sure it'll be worse than the stock filter's 4 (in. H2O). Each system will have 2 90's and one filter. The only difference is the filter and the NAPA 6580 doesn't breath the air required, and if forced to do so it'll develop a large pressure drop at best, and disintegrate at worst.

[DOSZORROS]

As David said, diesel engines like to run air rich. If your air pump is not pumping enough air, you will be running fuel rich and will be developing lots of carbon and less horsepower. Reduced horsepower does not reduce your tire, differential, transmission and engine friction but does reduce your efficiency.

[Itchintogo]

Well said guys. But who would put a filter rated at 570CFM on an engine that breathes at 1170 CFM under standard conditions? And why would you want to?

That is a big enough problem even Stevie Wonder could see that!

I always wonder why these types of people don't own a multi-million dollar bus line. If they are so darn smart and can do it so well? What is holding them back? They should be gazillionaires!

[davidbrady]

(03-31-2013 16:55)Ms. Bee Wrote:  David and of course Pete too,

I hate to sound like a dumb blonde, but being the fact that I am a woman, although not a priest, would you both mind clarifying for me, would this be the case for LXi's only or would it be the same all D Series 60's? Say a 95, 96, 97 Bird?

What I mean to say, if you were to trial test this, could you do it using any Bird with a DS60, or would it have to be done exclusively with LXi's???

Inquiring blondes want to know!

Thanks, guys!

Hi Jennifer,

That's okay, we all have our blonde moments! LOL All joking aside, folks, I have met Ms. Bee and her husband Darrell and I know Ms. Bee is accomplished and capable!

Any S-60 equipped Wanderlodge will do. I'm most familiar with the LXi, and it's the Filter Minder and the intake system of the LXi that was originally under question. I know the stock intake system is free-flowing and within Detroit Diesel specs. I know that mine runs too good and the mileage is too good for there to be any question about restriction, and my calculations bear this out. I'll be on the road on Tuesday driving back home from Pa to NC. I'll report the exact boost I see as I shift thru the gears via my Silverleaf VMSpc. I know that I routinely see 29.5 psi of boost during hill climbs and I come close to that on every gear shift on the flats, but I'll report the exact numbers later.

As far as intake restriction on other S60 equipped wanderlodge models, I don't know. I know that the LXi has three 90 degree bends including the ECO-SM air filter. I've read that other models of S60 equipped wanderlodges may have more, depending upon who's counting. The LXi is pretty darn near perfect the way it is, and if someone is going to allege differently then they're going to have to prove it to me with real data from a standardized and well thought out test bed or test scenario. Prove it to me.

[pgchin]

(03-31-2013 15:08)davidmbrady Wrote:  Pete you crack me up as always big Bros.

Well played last night! You gotta watch that high octane imbibation (is that a word)! Hahaha! To much of that and you'll have your SI's mixed up with your CI's.

You Wile-E-Coyote, you're trying to pull one over on us aren't you?

Little Brother,
And once again the ever super intelligent and lightning quick Road Runner outsmarts the ole Wile-E-Coyoye AGAIN! Yep just having fun on the WAGU spaghetti factory to get a few chuckles! BTW GREAT dissertation on the operations of a diesel engine and comparison to spark ignition, I bow to the Roadrunner!

Wagu, bottom line as all these post say, if you want to do a little tuning to your s60, just replace the exhaust system with Stainless and a high flowing muffler as the ever smart 'Roadrunner" did a while ago. You will need to do it ANYWAY when it gets old and worn so this stainless tuning setup will be a small cost increase to something you are going to have to do as a maintenance item. Your engine and engine room temp will go down and your engine will not work as hard! There Gary am I learning from you? Was that "net enough"! Our resident roadrunner also used the same science and independently came to the same conclusion as Banks tuning as I previously stated! And Banks has a full time team of engineers working a plethora of engines! Good deal!

---

(03-31-2013 20:16)davidmbrady Wrote:  

(03-31-2013 16:55)Ms. Bee Wrote:  David and of course Pete too,

I hate to sound like a dumb blonde, but being the fact that I am a woman, although not a priest, would you both mind clarifying for me, would this be the case for LXi's only or would it be the same all D Series 60's? Say a 95, 96, 97 Bird?

What I mean to say, if you were to trial test this, could you do it using any Bird with a DS60, or would it have to be done exclusively with LXi's???

Inquiring blondes want to know!

Thanks, guys!

Hi Jennifer,

That's okay, we all have our blonde moments! LOL All joking aside, folks, I have met Ms. Bee and her husband Darrell and I know Ms. Bee is accomplished and capable!

Any S-60 equipped Wanderlodge will do. I'm most familiar with the LXi, and it's the Filter Minder and the intake system of the LXi that was originally under question. I know the stock intake system is free-flowing and within Detroit Diesel specs. I know that mine runs too good and the mileage is too good for there to be any question about restriction, and my calculations bear this out. I'll be on the road on Tuesday driving back home from Pa to NC. I'll report the exact boost I see as I shift thru the gears via my Silverleaf VMSpc. I know that I routinely see 29.5 psi of boost during hill climbs and I come close to that on every gear shift on the flats, but I'll report the exact numbers later.

As far as intake restriction on other S60 equipped wanderlodge models, I don't know. I know that the LXi has three 90 degree bends including the ECO-SM air filter. I've read that other models of S60 equipped wanderlodges may have more, depending upon who's counting. The LXi is pretty darn near perfect the way it is, and if someone is going to allege differently then they're going to have to prove it to me with real data from a standardized and well thought out test bed or test scenario. Prove it to me.

Ok Jen,
NOW who is looking for chuckles! Thanks for this post BTW as it got me thinking (actually remembering) and I can actually add something here OMG! The 95-96 s60s have a different engine cradle. I mentioned this to Darrell when we were at Carabelle. In 97, Bluebird lowered the engine cradle 12-18 inches on s60 equipped birds to accommodate a full walk in closet option. This carried over to all subsequent years and LXi's. Net, my engine sits 12-18 inches higher than any s60 equipped model starting in 97, so my plumbing both inlet and exhaust is VERY different so all of Davids calculations are valid on s60's 97- 2003. I am willing to hazard a swag that the calculations David did for The LXI'S would carry over to 95-96 s60's subject to some "noise level" variant one need not worry about.

David, forgot to add that fight with the 12 year old single malt scotch over the weekend reminded me of another Toby Kieth bridge: " I ain't as good as I once was, I got some years on me now. But there was a time, back in prime, when I could really thow'em down! hehe!

[davidbrady]

As promised here's a couple videos showing my turbo boost as reported by VMSpc as I accelerate flat out thru the gears on a flat straight section of highway. These were taken at 1500 feet of altitude and at 60 deg F OAT. The first one is cut short just before shifting to sixth gear, I ran out of road. The second one is thru all the gears accelerating to around 75 mph, but my wife shook the camera a bit. The videos show the turbo performance thru my stock intake. The boost comes on instantly in first gear with a reading that quickly surpasses 25 psi within 3s. At every shift point the boost never drops below 25.5 psi. If you look closely at the second video you can see a boost pressure of over 29 psi in sixth gear. The stock intake breaths freely. It's my opinion that LXi owners have no need for any intake modifications. Enjoy.

BTW, if the expansion icon doesn't give you a full screen video image, click on the YouTube icon at the bottom of the video and you'll be taken over to youtube. You can get a full screen image there.