Julia's Problem

[jwasnewski]

I got a gut feel:
I am not the guru, no one wants to be wrong, and I do not care to
increase the stress level of the folks in distress.. I've been wrong
before but feel I need to try help these folks solve their problem.

I do not believe the air filter is the root problem!

Some questions: Applying the air in air out theory, if the air filter
was plugged how did Ms. Julia get from Gainsville, TX to Van Horn,
eveything working as advertised? Some 500 miles. The air filter was
ok in OK! Somehow in an instant it is plugged? Was there a sand
storm? If I have it correct the problem has been intermittant from
Iowa.

I do not believe that park dust theory either! That engine ain't
running when you are parked having cocktails. Just makes you wash the
bus.

How would a faulty air filter cause code 21 on the Allison
transmission? Something does not fit here.

This is what I would do!!

I think I would take a serious look at the throttle system and how it
interfaces with the transmission. I know absolutely nothing about
the throttle system but would bet it works off of a Potentiometer
somehow,(a fly by wire kinda thing) and something could be going
haywire there.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but somethin' ain't right here.
I think I would be asking lots of questions before I hit the road
again.


For info;
United Transmission Xchange for info. 800-527-1637


Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL

[davidkerryedwards]

I had a similar problem this past summer and I understand how Julia's problem
could
possibly be caused by a partially plugged filter. In my case, the filter let
enough air pass thru
to run under normal conditions. However, when the trans. downshifted on a steep
hill, the
turbo would spool up quickly, greatly increased the vacuum in the intake tube
between the
filter and the turbo. This vacuum would collapse the rubber hose section of the
intake tube
and shut off air, making the engine shut down.
This doesn't explain the transmission codes but it is a possible scenario in
which a partially
plugged air filter can function under some conditions but cause problem under
other.
Perhaps the transmission code is caused by the transmission acting oddly in
response to the
reduced power from the engine.
My problem was diagnosed quickly by a shrewd mechanic names 'Shrimp' who had
seen the
same thing happen a few months earlier on another CAT 3208. Both filters had
been
plugged for the same reason, a relatively small exhaust leak in the vicinity of
the filter,
sucked in soot, partially plugging the filter.

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver
Now carrying a spare air filter

[Leroy Eckert]

I can understand loss of power with a restriction in the induction system,
collapsed hose, dirty filter etc. Without induction air and exhaust the turbo
isn't gonna work properly.

Knowing my unit's numbers, I'm trying to determine how Julia's bus got from
Gainesville, TX to Van Horn with a plugged air filter with no problems,(must be
one big bad boy) only to be towed to El Paso. This could happen to any of us. I
think that is the key here, really.

1. It's hard to envision an air filter so dirty that the engine will not run,
and do so intermittently, over a 500 mile range.
2. I would think an 8v92 could get you to a repair station without the turbo.
Can't be in a hurry.

That is why I suggested the throttle issue. Of course I could be totally wrong.
I just cannot believe it has anything to do with paper.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors'
Niceville, FL








----- Original Message -----
From: davidkerryedwards
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:07 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Julia's Problem


I had a similar problem this past summer and I understand how Julia's problem
could
possibly be caused by a partially plugged filter. In my case, the filter let
enough air pass thru
to run under normal conditions. However, when the trans. downshifted on a
steep hill, the
turbo would spool up quickly, greatly increased the vacuum in the intake tube
between the
filter and the turbo. This vacuum would collapse the rubber hose section of
the intake tube
and shut off air, making the engine shut down.
This doesn't explain the transmission codes but it is a possible scenario in
which a partially
plugged air filter can function under some conditions but cause problem under
other.
Perhaps the transmission code is caused by the transmission acting oddly in
response to the
reduced power from the engine.
My problem was diagnosed quickly by a shrewd mechanic names 'Shrimp' who had
seen the
same thing happen a few months earlier on another CAT 3208. Both filters had
been
plugged for the same reason, a relatively small exhaust leak in the vicinity
of the filter,
sucked in soot, partially plugging the filter.

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver
Now carrying a spare air filter





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[erniecarpet@...]

Julie- did you notice any more black smoke coming from your exhaust?

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, tx



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leroy Eckert]

Could it be a wastegate issue? I think I would have the technicians check out
and eliminate an intermittent waste gate problem.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL




----- Original Message -----
From: Leroy Eckert
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Julia's Problem




I can understand loss of power with a restriction in the induction system,
collapsed hose, dirty filter etc. Without induction air and exhaust the turbo
isn't gonna work properly.

Knowing my unit's numbers, I'm trying to determine how Julia's bus got from
Gainesville, TX to Van Horn with a plugged air filter with no problems,(must be
one big bad boy) only to be towed to El Paso. This could happen to any of us. I
think that is the key here, really.

1. It's hard to envision an air filter so dirty that the engine will not run,
and do so intermittently, over a 500 mile range.
2. I would think an 8v92 could get you to a repair station without the turbo.
Can't be in a hurry.

That is why I suggested the throttle issue. Of course I could be totally
wrong. I just cannot believe it has anything to do with paper.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors'
Niceville, FL

----- Original Message -----
From: davidkerryedwards
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:07 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Julia's Problem

I had a similar problem this past summer and I understand how Julia's problem
could
possibly be caused by a partially plugged filter. In my case, the filter let
enough air pass thru
to run under normal conditions. However, when the trans. downshifted on a
steep hill, the
turbo would spool up quickly, greatly increased the vacuum in the intake tube
between the
filter and the turbo. This vacuum would collapse the rubber hose section of
the intake tube
and shut off air, making the engine shut down.
This doesn't explain the transmission codes but it is a possible scenario in
which a partially
plugged air filter can function under some conditions but cause problem under
other.
Perhaps the transmission code is caused by the transmission acting oddly in
response to the
reduced power from the engine.
My problem was diagnosed quickly by a shrewd mechanic names 'Shrimp' who had
seen the
same thing happen a few months earlier on another CAT 3208. Both filters had
been
plugged for the same reason, a relatively small exhaust leak in the vicinity
of the filter,
sucked in soot, partially plugging the filter.

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver
Now carrying a spare air filter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Julia Bonser]

I don't know that the air filter is the root problem there may be
more than one cause. However after examination of the filter in El
Paso it was declared used up. I think that would indicate that the
examination of the filter in OKC was insufficient.

Everything was not working as advertised. We had problems between
Gainesville and Irving, Texas where we had the transmission side of
the equation checked out. We then started having problem just outside
of Pecos and again in Van Horn where the hill was steep. I was down
to 5 miles an hour getting to a level spot. After that we did not
trust that it would not misbehave between Van Horn and El Paso.
No one is claiming the air filter was instantly plugged. It was used
up over time.
As it was explained to me, insufficient air causes lack of combustion
hence loss of turbo boost which leads to the transmission being
stressed and it believes there is a problem with the throttle sensor.
Two shops think that the problem is not the sensor. They tell me the
sensor is basically an on/off switch in the translator between the
engine and the transmission. The transmission shop checked that side
of the problem, when we subsequently had problems on I-20 they said
we needed to get the engine side of the problem examined.
We are now having the Bluebird seen by a place that services both
Detroit Diesel engines and Allison Transmissions.

Perhaps I have not explained things well as I could lose some details
between what I was told and what I wrote. Someone else may be able to
explain it better than I can.

I did not claim park dust caused the problem. I asked if it could
contribute as we spend a lot of time in dusty places. We get dust
inside the motorhome as well as the outside so for all I know the
dust could infiltrate the air filter even when we are not using the
engine which would lead to it clogging up sooner than expected. I was
not talking about the time between Iowa and Van Horn I was talking
about the time prior to the problem showing up on our way to Oklahoma.

Julie Bonser
1992 WLWB PT 40'
El Paso, TX


On Dec 8, 2006, at 9:45 PM, jwasnewski wrote:

> I got a gut feel:
> I am not the guru, no one wants to be wrong, and I do not care to
> increase the stress level of the folks in distress.. I've been wrong
> before but feel I need to try help these folks solve their problem.
>
> I do not believe the air filter is the root problem!
>
> Some questions: Applying the air in air out theory, if the air filter
> was plugged how did Ms. Julia get from Gainsville, TX to Van Horn,
> eveything working as advertised? Some 500 miles. The air filter was
> ok in OK! Somehow in an instant it is plugged? Was there a sand
> storm? If I have it correct the problem has been intermittant from
> Iowa.
>
> I do not believe that park dust theory either! That engine ain't
> running when you are parked having cocktails. Just makes you wash the
> bus.
>
> How would a faulty air filter cause code 21 on the Allison
> transmission? Something does not fit here.
>
> This is what I would do!!
>
> I think I would take a serious look at the throttle system and how it
> interfaces with the transmission. I know absolutely nothing about
> the throttle system but would bet it works off of a Potentiometer
> somehow,(a fly by wire kinda thing) and something could be going
> haywire there.
>
> I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but somethin' ain't right here.
> I think I would be asking lots of questions before I hit the road
> again.
>
>
> For info;
> United Transmission Xchange for info. 800-527-1637
>
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Dan Darst]

Could it be a collapsing fuel line when pulling hard? This happened to me. I
could not squeeze the line to collapse it by hand, but when I took it off,
it stretched like a rubber band. Jeff told me I had a collapsing fuel line,
but with my thick skull it took me two years after that to fix it. Don't
expect to be able to see it because it will be the inside liner not the
outer shell of the line that will be collapsing and restricting the flow. If
this is the problem, it will be most prevalent in hotter temps and harder
pulls.

dandarst86fc35rbhuntleyil.

>From: Julia Bonser
>Reply-To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Julia's Problem
>Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:48:54 -0700
>
>I don't know that the air filter is the root problem there may be
>more than one cause. However after examination of the filter in El
>Paso it was declared used up. I think that would indicate that the
>examination of the filter in OKC was insufficient.
>
>Everything was not working as advertised. We had problems between
>Gainesville and Irving, Texas where we had the transmission side of
>the equation checked out. We then started having problem just outside
>of Pecos and again in Van Horn where the hill was steep. I was down
>to 5 miles an hour getting to a level spot. After that we did not
>trust that it would not misbehave between Van Horn and El Paso.
>No one is claiming the air filter was instantly plugged. It was used
>up over time.
>As it was explained to me, insufficient air causes lack of combustion
>hence loss of turbo boost which leads to the transmission being
>stressed and it believes there is a problem with the throttle sensor.
>Two shops think that the problem is not the sensor. They tell me the
>sensor is basically an on/off switch in the translator between the
>engine and the transmission. The transmission shop checked that side
>of the problem, when we subsequently had problems on I-20 they said
>we needed to get the engine side of the problem examined.
>We are now having the Bluebird seen by a place that services both
>Detroit Diesel engines and Allison Transmissions.
>
>Perhaps I have not explained things well as I could lose some details
>between what I was told and what I wrote. Someone else may be able to
>explain it better than I can.
>
>I did not claim park dust caused the problem. I asked if it could
>contribute as we spend a lot of time in dusty places. We get dust
>inside the motorhome as well as the outside so for all I know the
>dust could infiltrate the air filter even when we are not using the
>engine which would lead to it clogging up sooner than expected. I was
>not talking about the time between Iowa and Van Horn I was talking
>about the time prior to the problem showing up on our way to Oklahoma.
>
>Julie Bonser
>1992 WLWB PT 40'
>El Paso, TX
>
>
>On Dec 8, 2006, at 9:45 PM, jwasnewski wrote:
>
> > I got a gut feel:
> > I am not the guru, no one wants to be wrong, and I do not care to
> > increase the stress level of the folks in distress.. I've been wrong
> > before but feel I need to try help these folks solve their problem.
> >
> > I do not believe the air filter is the root problem!
> >
> > Some questions: Applying the air in air out theory, if the air filter
> > was plugged how did Ms. Julia get from Gainsville, TX to Van Horn,
> > eveything working as advertised? Some 500 miles. The air filter was
> > ok in OK! Somehow in an instant it is plugged? Was there a sand
> > storm? If I have it correct the problem has been intermittant from
> > Iowa.
> >
> > I do not believe that park dust theory either! That engine ain't
> > running when you are parked having cocktails. Just makes you wash the
> > bus.
> >
> > How would a faulty air filter cause code 21 on the Allison
> > transmission? Something does not fit here.
> >
> > This is what I would do!!
> >
> > I think I would take a serious look at the throttle system and how it
> > interfaces with the transmission. I know absolutely nothing about
> > the throttle system but would bet it works off of a Potentiometer
> > somehow,(a fly by wire kinda thing) and something could be going
> > haywire there.
> >
> > I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but somethin' ain't right here.
> > I think I would be asking lots of questions before I hit the road
> > again.
> >
> >
> > For info;
> > United Transmission Xchange for info. 800-527-1637
> >
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40 "Smoke N Mirrors"
> > Niceville, FL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

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[Julia Bonser]

I did not observe any black smoke when I was driving behind the
motorhome on the way to the shop in Irvine when Ron was driving it
for us. I'm sure I would have noticed if there was any. When we were
beside the road south of Pecos because we slowed down he observed
there was no black smoke when idling when he revved up the motor as
high as it would go there was some.

I did not look for smoke when I was tried to get to the top of the
hill at the scenic outlook because we have to scrunch down in the
seat to check in the mirror as the exhaust comes out of the top of
the coach.

Julie Bonser
1992 WLWB PT 40'



On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:50 AM, erniecarpet@... wrote:

> Julie- did you notice any more black smoke coming from your exhaust?

[davidkerryedwards]

It would probably only smoke under load. Another indicator of a plugged filter
could be
an increase in pyrometer temperature. Do you have a pyrometer and did you
notice any
changes?

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Julia Bonser wrote:
>
> I did not observe any black smoke when I was driving behind the
> motorhome on the way to the shop in Irvine when Ron was driving it
> for us. I'm sure I would have noticed if there was any. When we were
> beside the road south of Pecos because we slowed down he observed
> there was no black smoke when idling when he revved up the motor as
> high as it would go there was some.
>
> I did not look for smoke when I was tried to get to the top of the
> hill at the scenic outlook because we have to scrunch down in the
> seat to check in the mirror as the exhaust comes out of the top of
> the coach.
>
> Julie Bonser
> 1992 WLWB PT 40'
>
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:50 AM, erniecarpet@... wrote:
>
> > Julie- did you notice any more black smoke coming from your exhaust?
>

[erniecarpet@...]

Julie- when I typed that note and hit send- I thought- they have a roof
exhaust- how they gonna see any smoke- duh

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, tx



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]