Firestone tires bouncing

[Pete Amerson Jr]

Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put a dust
type material in the tires to balance them while it is being driven. I
then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks ago I drove
the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on one of the
back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they checked the
balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim but they
would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about 78 mph.
Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not be driving
that fast anyway?
Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all below 70
mph.

Pete Amerson
87 PT-40
Atmore, AL

[Pete Masterson]

I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy duty
tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.

The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very sensitive to
excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture in the
tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
aeonix1@...



On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:

> Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put a dust
> type material in the tires to balance them while it is being driven. I
> then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks ago I drove
> the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on one of
> the
> back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they checked the
> balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim but they
> would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about 78 mph.
> Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not be driving
> that fast anyway?
> Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all below 70
> mph.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[mbulriss]

The speed limit on IH-10 from Kerrville to outside of El Paso is
80MPH. Over 400 miles of road.

AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big rig
tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and Bus
discussion boards.

From the EQUAL manufacturer's web site FAQ at
http://imiproducts.com/equal/faqs.aspx comes the following FAQ:

Q - If water is inside a tire, does it have any effect on EQUAL, and
if so, what is the effect?
Answer:
* EQUAL Tire Performance does NOT ABSORB water in any way.
* Due to the fact that EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule, water
or moisture will not change its composition.
* Moisture that accumulates inside the tire will evaporate due to
normal driving conditions and therefore is in contact with EQUAL for a
very short time.
* EQUAL, when in contact with large amounts of water, (to the
point where it is actually floating freely), will do just that, float.
This will interfere with the ability of EQUAL to optimize the given
tire in the way that the tire dealer or fleet had intended when
installing the product. Simply, this means that although EQUAL will
never damage the tire in any way, if it is in contact with large
amounts of water, it cannot perform its job. Again, it is important to
reiterate, that in most cases, moisture will evaporate due to the heat
build up in normal driving, and once the moisture has evaporated,
EQUAL will perform as it originally did.

FWIW,

Mike Bulriss
1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
San Antonio, TX


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy duty
> tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.
>
> The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very sensitive to
> excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture in the
> tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:
>
> > Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put a dust
> > type material in the tires to balance them while it is being driven. I
> > then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks ago I drove
> > the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on one of
> > the
> > back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they checked the
> > balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim but they
> > would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about 78 mph.
> > Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not be driving
> > that fast anyway?
> > Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all below 70
> > mph.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Don Bradner]

Some notes on Equal: I ran it on my last SOB for most of 4 years. I live in an
area that can only be called wet - less than 70% humidity on any day of the year
would be considered dry - and never took ran a drier on my compressor when
filling the tires. When they were replaced last December (63,000 miles) I was
present during the dismount and there was nothing but powder in there.

The Equal-provided/recommended yellow marking o-rings placed on the valve-stems
were all fully deteriorated and gone by 2 years. Not sure what the company
expects of them.

I had no problems with Equal, but I also never felt that they worked better than
a decent dynamic balance, so at least so far I haven't seen a good reason to use
it again.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 8/13/2007 at 10:33 PM mbulriss wrote:

>AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big rig
>tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
>unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and Bus
>discussion boards.

[Leroy Eckert]

Mike is correct of course, he lives there. I ran I-10 two weeks ago at speeds,
well, I was in my pickup. I would not drive my coach that fast because it is not
necessary and would have other things to do along the way, it is not a race car.
The family would be inside. The roads in West Texas are good and the Black &
White's hang out in the weeds, with radar, and backup.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
The Constable in Van Horn is behind on his house payment.
----- Original Message -----
From: mbulriss
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 5:33 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing


The speed limit on IH-10 from Kerrville to outside of El Paso is
80MPH. Over 400 miles of road.

AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big rig
tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and Bus
discussion boards.

From the EQUAL manufacturer's web site FAQ at
http://imiproducts.com/equal/faqs.aspx comes the following FAQ:

Q - If water is inside a tire, does it have any effect on EQUAL, and
if so, what is the effect?
Answer:
* EQUAL Tire Performance does NOT ABSORB water in any way.
* Due to the fact that EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule, water
or moisture will not change its composition.
* Moisture that accumulates inside the tire will evaporate due to
normal driving conditions and therefore is in contact with EQUAL for a
very short time.
* EQUAL, when in contact with large amounts of water, (to the
point where it is actually floating freely), will do just that, float.
This will interfere with the ability of EQUAL to optimize the given
tire in the way that the tire dealer or fleet had intended when
installing the product. Simply, this means that although EQUAL will
never damage the tire in any way, if it is in contact with large
amounts of water, it cannot perform its job. Again, it is important to
reiterate, that in most cases, moisture will evaporate due to the heat
build up in normal driving, and once the moisture has evaporated,
EQUAL will perform as it originally did.

FWIW,

Mike Bulriss
1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
San Antonio, TX

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy duty
> tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.
>
> The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very sensitive to
> excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture in the
> tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:
>
> > Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put a dust
> > type material in the tires to balance them while it is being driven. I
> > then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks ago I drove
> > the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on one of
> > the
> > back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they checked the
> > balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim but they
> > would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about 78 mph.
> > Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not be driving
> > that fast anyway?
> > Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all below 70
> > mph.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Amerson Jr]

We generally drive the the RV about 70 on the interstate.
I suppose my questions are these.
Should these tires bounce at any speed if they are balanced?
Is most likely the problem with the type of balancing used or them
being Firestone tires?
Is one type of tire balancing better suited to RV's than another?

Thanks for all of your help and comments.

Pete Amerson
87 PT-40
Atmore, AL


-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
wrote:
>
> Mike is correct of course, he lives there. I ran I-10 two weeks
ago at speeds, well, I was in my pickup. I would not drive my coach
that fast because it is not necessary and would have other things to
do along the way, it is not a race car. The family would be inside.
The roads in West Texas are good and the Black & White's hang out in
the weeds, with radar, and backup.
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> The Constable in Van Horn is behind on his house payment.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mbulriss
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 5:33 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing
>
>
> The speed limit on IH-10 from Kerrville to outside of El Paso is
> 80MPH. Over 400 miles of road.
>
> AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big
rig
> tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
> unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and
Bus
> discussion boards.
>
> From the EQUAL manufacturer's web site FAQ at
> http://imiproducts.com/equal/faqs.aspx comes the following FAQ:
>
> Q - If water is inside a tire, does it have any effect on EQUAL,
and
> if so, what is the effect?
> Answer:
> * EQUAL Tire Performance does NOT ABSORB water in any way.
> * Due to the fact that EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule, water
> or moisture will not change its composition.
> * Moisture that accumulates inside the tire will evaporate due to
> normal driving conditions and therefore is in contact with EQUAL
for a
> very short time.
> * EQUAL, when in contact with large amounts of water, (to the
> point where it is actually floating freely), will do just that,
float.
> This will interfere with the ability of EQUAL to optimize the
given
> tire in the way that the tire dealer or fleet had intended when
> installing the product. Simply, this means that although EQUAL
will
> never damage the tire in any way, if it is in contact with large
> amounts of water, it cannot perform its job. Again, it is
important to
> reiterate, that in most cases, moisture will evaporate due to the
heat
> build up in normal driving, and once the moisture has evaporated,
> EQUAL will perform as it originally did.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Mike Bulriss
> 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
> San Antonio, TX
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy
duty
> > tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.
> >
> > The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very
sensitive to
> > excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture
in the
> > tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > El Sobrante CA
> > aeonix1@
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:
> >
> > > Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put
a dust
> > > type material in the tires to balance them while it is being
driven. I
> > > then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks
ago I drove
> > > the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on
one of
> > > the
> > > back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they
checked the
> > > balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim
but they
> > > would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about
78 mph.
> > > Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not
be driving
> > > that fast anyway?
> > > Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all
below 70
> > > mph.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Pete, The tech said it may be the rim or the tire. The attempted
correction in their power was to replaced the tire. With lack of
desired result, its the rim. I would mix it up on the rear duels.
and check the shocks

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Amerson Jr"
wrote:
>
> Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put a
dust
> type material in the tires to balance them while it is being
driven. I
> then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks ago I
drove
> the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on one of
the
> back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they checked
the
> balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim but
they
> would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about 78
mph.
> Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not be
driving
> that fast anyway?
> Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all below
70
> mph.
>
> Pete Amerson
> 87 PT-40
> Atmore, AL
>

[Larry Dill]

Pete,
The thought occurred to me that if this bouncing that you are experiencing,
maybe you should have the shocks checked... Could be that they are the ewuipment
that is causing the bouncing...
HTH

Sea Ya
Larry
NYC
84 35FCSB



----- Original Message ----
From: Pete Amerson Jr
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:37:07 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing

We generally drive the the RV about 70 on the interstate.
I suppose my questions are these.
Should these tires bounce at any speed if they are balanced?
Is most likely the problem with the type of balancing used or them
being Firestone tires?
Is one type of tire balancing better suited to RV's than another?

Thanks for all of your help and comments.

Pete Amerson
87 PT-40
Atmore, AL

-- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Leroy Eckert"
wrote:
>
> Mike is correct of course, he lives there. I ran I-10 two weeks
ago at speeds, well, I was in my pickup. I would not drive my coach
that fast because it is not necessary and would have other things to
do along the way, it is not a race car. The family would be inside.
The roads in West Texas are good and the Black & White's hang out in
the weeds, with radar, and backup.
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
> The Constable in Van Horn is behind on his house payment.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mbulriss
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 5:33 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing
>
>
> The speed limit on IH-10 from Kerrville to outside of El Paso is
> 80MPH. Over 400 miles of road.
>
> AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big
rig
> tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
> unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and
Bus
> discussion boards.
>
> From the EQUAL manufacturer' s web site FAQ at
> http://imiproducts. com/equal/ faqs.aspx comes the following FAQ:
>
> Q - If water is inside a tire, does it have any effect on EQUAL,
and
> if so, what is the effect?
> Answer:
> * EQUAL Tire Performance does NOT ABSORB water in any way.
> * Due to the fact that EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule, water
> or moisture will not change its composition.
> * Moisture that accumulates inside the tire will evaporate due to
> normal driving conditions and therefore is in contact with EQUAL
for a
> very short time.
> * EQUAL, when in contact with large amounts of water, (to the
> point where it is actually floating freely), will do just that,
float.
> This will interfere with the ability of EQUAL to optimize the
given
> tire in the way that the tire dealer or fleet had intended when
> installing the product. Simply, this means that although EQUAL
will
> never damage the tire in any way, if it is in contact with large
> amounts of water, it cannot perform its job. Again, it is
important to
> reiterate, that in most cases, moisture will evaporate due to the
heat
> build up in normal driving, and once the moisture has evaporated,
> EQUAL will perform as it originally did.
>
> FWIW,
>
> Mike Bulriss
> 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
> San Antonio, TX
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, Pete Masterson
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy
duty
> > tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.
> >
> > The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very
sensitive to
> > excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture
in the
> > tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > El Sobrante CA
> > aeonix1@
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:
> >
> > > Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put
a dust
> > > type material in the tires to balance them while it is being
driven. I
> > > then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks
ago I drove
> > > the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on
one of
> > > the
> > > back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they
checked the
> > > balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim
but they
> > > would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about
78 mph.
> > > Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not
be driving
> > > that fast anyway?
> > > Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all
below 70
> > > mph.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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____
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[freewill2008]

I'd look at it from the other side.

- With a bad tire you may need a shock or shocks soon, even if the
shocks are good now. A good shock will become a worn shock quickly
with a bad tire. Other suspension components also suffer.

- If the shocks are bad and the tire(s) good, its the bus that does
the bouncing rather than the tire and wheel. (The tires won't stay
stuck to the road as well with bad shocks, however.)

- its easier to tell you have a bad tire when the shocks are worn.
That's because a worn shock lets the tire bounce more easily. A bad
shock will let a good tire bounce once or twice due to a bump in the
road - but it won't make the tire bounce constantly with each
revolution.

I've had tires do the highway-hop for two reasons: Either a good
tire has gone out of balance, or the tire is working its way toward
failure, usually due to a structural defect in the tire.

Remember that a bouncing tire is out of touch with the road part of
the time, and it has much less traction as a result.

Bob Griesel





--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Larry Dill
wrote:
>
> Pete,
> The thought occurred to me that if this bouncing that you are
experiencing, maybe you should have the shocks checked... Could be
that they are the ewuipment that is causing the bouncing...
> HTH
>
> Sea Ya
> Larry
> NYC
> 84 35FCSB
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pete Amerson Jr
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:37:07 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing
>
> We generally drive the the RV about 70 on the interstate.
> I suppose my questions are these.
> Should these tires bounce at any speed if they are balanced?
> Is most likely the problem with the type of balancing used or them
> being Firestone tires?
> Is one type of tire balancing better suited to RV's than another?
>
> Thanks for all of your help and comments.
>
> Pete Amerson
> 87 PT-40
> Atmore, AL
>
> -- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Leroy Eckert"
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike is correct of course, he lives there. I ran I-10 two weeks
> ago at speeds, well, I was in my pickup. I would not drive my coach
> that fast because it is not necessary and would have other things
to
> do along the way, it is not a race car. The family would be inside.
> The roads in West Texas are good and the Black & White's hang out
in
> the weeds, with radar, and backup.
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > Niceville, FL
> > The Constable in Van Horn is behind on his house payment.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mbulriss
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 5:33 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Firestone tires bouncing
> >
> >
> > The speed limit on IH-10 from Kerrville to outside of El Paso is
> > 80MPH. Over 400 miles of road.
> >
> > AFAIK, the most common 'dust type' material used to balance big
> rig
> > tires is a product named EQUAL. EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule
> > unaffected by moisture. It is discussed frequently on many RV and
> Bus
> > discussion boards.
> >
> > From the EQUAL manufacturer' s web site FAQ at
> > http://imiproducts. com/equal/ faqs.aspx comes the following FAQ:
> >
> > Q - If water is inside a tire, does it have any effect on EQUAL,
> and
> > if so, what is the effect?
> > Answer:
> > * EQUAL Tire Performance does NOT ABSORB water in any way.
> > * Due to the fact that EQUAL is a plastic polymer granule, water
> > or moisture will not change its composition.
> > * Moisture that accumulates inside the tire will evaporate due to
> > normal driving conditions and therefore is in contact with EQUAL
> for a
> > very short time.
> > * EQUAL, when in contact with large amounts of water, (to the
> > point where it is actually floating freely), will do just that,
> float.
> > This will interfere with the ability of EQUAL to optimize the
> given
> > tire in the way that the tire dealer or fleet had intended when
> > installing the product. Simply, this means that although EQUAL
> will
> > never damage the tire in any way, if it is in contact with large
> > amounts of water, it cannot perform its job. Again, it is
> important to
> > reiterate, that in most cases, moisture will evaporate due to the
> heat
> > build up in normal driving, and once the moisture has evaporated,
> > EQUAL will perform as it originally did.
> >
> > FWIW,
> >
> > Mike Bulriss
> > 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
> > San Antonio, TX
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, Pete Masterson

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if 78 mph is legal in any state -- and most heavy
> duty
> > > tires are rated to 70 or 75 mph maximum anyway.
> > >
> > > The "dust type material" used to balance tires is very
> sensitive to
> > > excess moisture -- it will clump if there's too much moisture
> in the
> > > tire (and the moisture comes in with the compressed air).
> > >
> > > Pete Masterson
> > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > > El Sobrante CA
> > > aeonix1@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 13, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Pete Amerson Jr wrote:
> > >
> > > > Back in Feb I had all tires replaced with Firestone. They put
> a dust
> > > > type material in the tires to balance them while it is being
> driven. I
> > > > then drove it about 10 miles to storage. A couple of weeks
> ago I drove
> > > > the RV and when I got to about 75 mph it started bouncing on
> one of
> > > > the
> > > > back tires. I carried it back to the tire store and they
> checked the
> > > > balance and said that it may be the tire or it may be the rim
> but they
> > > > would put another tire on anyway. Now it has a bounce about
> 78 mph.
> > > > Is this to be expected with firestone tires or should I not
> be driving
> > > > that fast anyway?
> > > > Since I got the tires I have put anout 200 miles on them, all
> below 70
> > > > mph.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>