450 LXi and A Little History

[beancounterman]

I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and the
"cheapening" of
the 450 LXi, with some interest. Frankly, I was shocked when Blue Bird took the
M380 and
then the new LXi "down market," abandoning not only their traditional price
point, relative
to the bus conversions and Newell, but also the price point well established
with their
customer base. I thought it was a big mistake when I first saw the M380, and
have only
grown more sure that BB has walked away from their heritage and their best
opportunity.

My first of many Wanderlodges was a new 1977 FC 31' gas. (I now have a SOB--Some
Other Brand). As many old timers still remember, these Wanderlodges were the
Rolls-
Royces of the marketplace, and built like bank vaults. John Harris and Dick
Seybolt headed
up a savy team that aggressively marketed these coaches into what was then the
very top
of the motorhome market. In fact, John and Dick virtually created the top end of
the
motorhome market during this period. At one point in the late 70s and early 80s,
Blue Bird
was building about 300 Wanderlodges a year. I hear that the goal this year is
about 30
units.

The short story is that Blue Bird simply lost their way. The first big mistake,
in my opinion,
occurred a long time ago in thinking that their success was based on building
the
Wanderlodge on their All American school bus chassis/body rather than the real
reason,
offering a product aimed squarely and successfully at the top of the market. But
the top of
the market is a moving target. BB was late in going to the rear engine, stayed
too close to
the All American while they transistioned to rear engine, and did not engineer
enough
weight out of the unit. The interiors became dated, and their products had
difficulty
competing with the rapidly expanding bus conversion products and Newell's
consistently
progressive offerings.

Since then, well, we have seen a succession in ownership and management groups,
none
of which seems to have had a clear vision of what a top-of-the-market motorhome
should
be. Ultimately, we get the M380 and M450, decidedly not designed to compete in
the
same field as the Wanderlodges of the past.

My sense is that the irony of this is that the motorhome market in the price
range of
$800,000 to perhaps $1,200,000 is wide open for a strong product. Newell is
the only
player (other than some of the cheaper, weaker conversion brands) and they
appear to be
prospering. The word on the street is that Newell's production is sold out for
over a year.
Where is Blue Bird?

One can argue the merits of Dupree vs. Drainmaster, and for one, I much prefer
the
products and especially the service offered by Girard rather than Zip Dee. But
for the life of
me, I cannnot figure out why Blue Bird is not aiming their new products at the
lucrative top
of the motorhome market, with coaches that are innovative and uncompromised.

[randydupree]

good points on all topics. from a vendors point of view newell is the leader in
motorhome building,they are the very best in keeping up with the market.they
stay busy and there orders to me are the same every month.they don't cheap out
on parts. royal coach also stays very consistant on their workload,they have
slowed down very little in the last few years when most other coach builders
have. heres a little bit of trivia,the owner of newell used to own a BB...years
ago. BB used to be my biggest customer. randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: beancounterman
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:15 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History


I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and the
"cheapening" of
the 450 LXi, with some interest. Frankly, I was shocked when Blue Bird took
the M380 and
then the new LXi "down market," abandoning not only their traditional price
point, relative
to the bus conversions and Newell, but also the price point well established
with their
customer base. I thought it was a big mistake when I first saw the M380, and
have only
grown more sure that BB has walked away from their heritage and their best
opportunity.

My first of many Wanderlodges was a new 1977 FC 31' gas. (I now have a
SOB--Some
Other Brand). As many old timers still remember, these Wanderlodges were the
Rolls-
Royces of the marketplace, and built like bank vaults. John Harris and Dick
Seybolt headed
up a savy team that aggressively marketed these coaches into what was then the
very top
of the motorhome market. In fact, John and Dick virtually created the top end
of the
motorhome market during this period. At one point in the late 70s and early
80s, Blue Bird
was building about 300 Wanderlodges a year. I hear that the goal this year is
about 30
units.

The short story is that Blue Bird simply lost their way. The first big
mistake, in my opinion,
occurred a long time ago in thinking that their success was based on building
the
Wanderlodge on their All American school bus chassis/body rather than the real
reason,
offering a product aimed squarely and successfully at the top of the market.
But the top of
the market is a moving target. BB was late in going to the rear engine, stayed
too close to
the All American while they transistioned to rear engine, and did not engineer
enough
weight out of the unit. The interiors became dated, and their products had
difficulty
competing with the rapidly expanding bus conversion products and Newell's
consistently
progressive offerings.

Since then, well, we have seen a succession in ownership and management
groups, none
of which seems to have had a clear vision of what a top-of-the-market
motorhome should
be. Ultimately, we get the M380 and M450, decidedly not designed to compete in
the
same field as the Wanderlodges of the past.

My sense is that the irony of this is that the motorhome market in the price
range of
$800,000 to perhaps $1,200,000 is wide open for a strong product. Newell is
the only
player (other than some of the cheaper, weaker conversion brands) and they
appear to be
prospering. The word on the street is that Newell's production is sold out for
over a year.
Where is Blue Bird?

One can argue the merits of Dupree vs. Drainmaster, and for one, I much prefer
the
products and especially the service offered by Girard rather than Zip Dee. But
for the life of
me, I cannnot figure out why Blue Bird is not aiming their new products at the
lucrative top
of the motorhome market, with coaches that are innovative and uncompromised.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Blair]

> Beancounter wrote:
>One can argue the merits of Dupree vs. Drainmaster, and for one, I much
>prefer the
>products and especially the service offered by Girard rather than Zip Dee.
>But for the life of
>me, I cannnot figure out why Blue Bird is not aiming their new products at
>the lucrative top
>of the motorhome market, with coaches that are innovative and uncompromised.
>
>
Go through their factory, then do it the next day and really look at what
they're doing. Then go to Coach Craft in Oregon and
look at their line.....the checks, gigs, and precision production line was
something to see...it seems that BB is still building their
coaches like Rolls did in England, a great car but a little behind the
times in innovation and modern engineering...compare the
finish and engineering to a Lexsus (sp?) at a fraction of the cost.

The slides on the new coaches were displayed and explained as being a
wondrous new engineering development, when it looked
to me as a catchup thrown together lash-up from a small shop down the
street. All in an effort to say it was developed in house,
when better systems were already available.... the next day we went and
saw some new coaches at a dealership down the
road, where the slides wouldn't retract on a new coach, leaks were pouring
water into two others, and the rear slide of a new
M380 vibrated so much with the engine running, you felt you were in a drum....

My wife, Lynn, looked at me and said "If we didn't already have ours, I'd
never set foot in a bird. The new one's are junk."

When the ship is sinking, do you worry about the fixing the problem, or
just saving your life? BB is not looking
at the problem in a way that will do any good. Band aids don't work on
broken bones.

If I can't find a bird that I'm comfortable with, both moving around inside
and driving, I'm off to Newell or Prevost. I'm
tired of having a crick in my neck. That will be a sad day for us both,
as we love our bird. We have had nothing
but fun and pleasure on our trips, met the greatest people, and have had
the wonderful chance to visit
some of the greatest repair shops in the country......so, if any of you out
there know of a bird for sale, pre-2000
that has better than 6'8" headroom let me know....I haven't found one.

Blair in southern Oregon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tom Warner]

Finally someone sees what I did over 3 years ago, when I made a very
similar observation on the original Wanderlodge Forum. I toured the
Bluebird factory and at the end of the tour asked if I could arrange to see
some things that the tour did not cover. I was shocked to see some of the
things that were being done, a finished LXI with hundreds of white circles
on it denoting paint defects. We stopped to talk to the fellow taping the
graphics on the side of a new LX. I asked him if he saw any defects in the
paint at this stage. Yes he said I do see many defects. Have you told your
boss about them I asked. No sir I have not he replied. Last time I did I
was told to just do what I was paid to do. Then there was the other coach
in the paint booth being sanded and preped for another coat of paint after
the quality control people did their job on it. I didnt have to go any
further to decide that this company was not long for the motorhome market.

And then when I needed a new body panel for my coach after it being in a
small accident and Bluebird told me the parts were no longer available (I
had them fabricated by a BB school bus dealer 15 miles from me), after BB
telling me before I bought the coach that everything was still available
for it.

When I made these observations all hell broke loose on the forum and I was
told by the moderator that these kind of comments were not welcome. And a
member said I should go buy a Newell if I didnt like the BB.

Its a sad situation when you see a company move so far away from its
heritage. Someone took a wonderful machine and made it just another wannabe.

tom
1982 FC35
Vernon Center,NY


At 12:15 PM 5/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>I note the conversations about the Drainmaster vs. Dupree valves, and the
>"cheapening" of
>the 450 LXi, with some interest. Frankly, I was shocked when Blue Bird
>took the M380 and
>then the new LXi "down market," abandoning not only their traditional
>price point, relative
>to the bus conversions and Newell, but also the price point well
>established with their
>customer base. I thought it was a big mistake when I first saw the M380,
>and have only
>grown more sure that BB has walked away from their heritage and their best
>opportunity.
>
>My first of many Wanderlodges was a new 1977 FC 31' gas. (I now have a
>SOB--Some
>Other Brand). As many old timers still remember, these Wanderlodges were
>the Rolls-
>Royces of the marketplace, and built like bank vaults. John Harris and
>Dick Seybolt headed
>up a savy team that aggressively marketed these coaches into what was then
>the very top
>of the motorhome market. In fact, John and Dick virtually created the top
>end of the
>motorhome market during this period. At one point in the late 70s and
>early 80s, Blue Bird
>was building about 300 Wanderlodges a year. I hear that the goal this year
>is about 30
>units.
>
>The short story is that Blue Bird simply lost their way. The first big
>mistake, in my opinion,
>occurred a long time ago in thinking that their success was based on
>building the
>Wanderlodge on their All American school bus chassis/body rather than the
>real reason,
>offering a product aimed squarely and successfully at the top of the
>market. But the top of
>the market is a moving target. BB was late in going to the rear engine,
>stayed too close to
>the All American while they transistioned to rear engine, and did not
>engineer enough
>weight out of the unit. The interiors became dated, and their products had
>difficulty
>competing with the rapidly expanding bus conversion products and Newell's
>consistently
>progressive offerings.
>
>Since then, well, we have seen a succession in ownership and management
>groups, none
>of which seems to have had a clear vision of what a top-of-the-market
>motorhome should
>be. Ultimately, we get the M380 and M450, decidedly not designed to
>compete in the
>same field as the Wanderlodges of the past.
>
>My sense is that the irony of this is that the motorhome market in the
>price range of
>$800,000 to perhaps $1,200,000 is wide open for a strong product. Newell
>is the only
>player (other than some of the cheaper, weaker conversion brands) and they
>appear to be
>prospering. The word on the street is that Newell's production is sold out
>for over a year.
>Where is Blue Bird?
>
>One can argue the merits of Dupree vs. Drainmaster, and for one, I much
>prefer the
>products and especially the service offered by Girard rather than Zip Dee.
>But for the life of
>me, I cannnot figure out why Blue Bird is not aiming their new products at
>the lucrative top
>of the motorhome market, with coaches that are innovative and uncompromised.
>
>
>
>
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[Blair]

>
>
>When I made these observations all hell broke loose on the forum and I was
>told by the moderator that these kind of comments were not welcome. And a
>member said I should go buy a Newell if I didnt like the BB.
>
>Its a sad situation when you see a company move so far away from its
>heritage. Someone took a wonderful machine and made it just another wannabe.
>
>tom
>1982 FC35
>Vernon Center,NY
Couldn't agree more with you Tom....it was the visit to the factory that
chilled
my enthusiasm.

Blair in Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bobloomas]

----- Original Message -----
From: randydupree
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
Maybe Blue Bird should have change from steel body constuction to aluminum
just like Newell then they could have had a slidout years ago and all the rest
of the goodies that the motor home market demands.Even bus conversion dont have
a 300 gal. fuel tank or tank like constuction.Had Blue Bird cut back on the
heavy duty constuction back in the early 90s all kinds of hell would have broke
out.
Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36




.




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[randydupree]

the construction material has nothing to do with having slides or not.the real
problem was safety(not a problem with BB's) the powers at BB resisted slides
because in there minds they are not safe.when BB started to use the bigger
windows in the salon area of BB's this is how they tested the body,with all the
sheet metal in place and the window holes cut out they place 3000 lbs of steel
on the roof of the bird.they measured the opening before and after placing the
weight.just placing the weight on the roof was not enough,they left it there for
a week before they were sure that there would be no problems. and that was just
for a window! there was no way that they would ever put a slide in a coach!
randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: bobloomas
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History



----- Original Message -----
From: randydupree
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
Maybe Blue Bird should have change from steel body constuction to aluminum
just like Newell then they could have had a slidout years ago and all the rest
of the goodies that the motor home market demands.Even bus conversion dont have
a 300 gal. fuel tank or tank like constuction.Had Blue Bird cut back on the
heavy duty constuction back in the early 90s all kinds of hell would have broke
out.
Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36




.





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[Blair]

Sounds like the mindset of Studebaker.......

Blair




At 03:44 PM 5/10/2005, you wrote:
>the construction material has nothing to do with having slides or not.the
>real problem was safety(not a problem with BB's) the powers at BB resisted
>slides because in there minds they are not safe.when BB started to use the
>bigger windows in the salon area of BB's this is how they tested the
>body,with all the sheet metal in place and the window holes cut out they
>place 3000 lbs of steel on the roof of the bird.they measured the opening
>before and after placing the weight.just placing the weight on the roof
>was not enough,they left it there for a week before they were sure that
>there would be no problems. and that was just for a window! there was no
>way that they would ever put a slide in a coach! randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bobloomas
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: randydupree
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
> Maybe Blue Bird should have change from steel body constuction to
> aluminum just like Newell then they could have had a slidout years ago
> and all the rest of the goodies that the motor home market demands.Even
> bus conversion dont have a 300 gal. fuel tank or tank like
> constuction.Had Blue Bird cut back on the heavy duty constuction back in
> the early 90s all kinds of hell would have broke out.
> Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
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[randydupree]

that happened in 1990,or just before...i saw the steel on the roof,and asked
about it.ray horne told me the story! randydupree93wb
----- Original Message -----
From: Blair
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History


Sounds like the mindset of Studebaker.......

Blair




At 03:44 PM 5/10/2005, you wrote:
>the construction material has nothing to do with having slides or not.the
>real problem was safety(not a problem with BB's) the powers at BB resisted
>slides because in there minds they are not safe.when BB started to use the
>bigger windows in the salon area of BB's this is how they tested the
>body,with all the sheet metal in place and the window holes cut out they
>place 3000 lbs of steel on the roof of the bird.they measured the opening
>before and after placing the weight.just placing the weight on the roof
>was not enough,they left it there for a week before they were sure that
>there would be no problems. and that was just for a window! there was no
>way that they would ever put a slide in a coach! randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bobloomas
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: randydupree
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
> Maybe Blue Bird should have change from steel body constuction to
> aluminum just like Newell then they could have had a slidout years ago
> and all the rest of the goodies that the motor home market demands.Even
> bus conversion dont have a 300 gal. fuel tank or tank like
> constuction.Had Blue Bird cut back on the heavy duty constuction back in
> the early 90s all kinds of hell would have broke out.
> Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>

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[Blair]

Ok, a great test! something the Flintstones would do....
let's see, when did Studebaker go bankrupt?

Blair who loves a good laugh




At 05:59 PM 5/10/2005, you wrote:
>that happened in 1990,or just before...i saw the steel on the roof,and
>asked about it.ray horne told me the story! randydupree93wb
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Blair
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
>
>
> Sounds like the mindset of Studebaker.......
>
> Blair
>
>
>
>
> At 03:44 PM 5/10/2005, you wrote:
> >the construction material has nothing to do with having slides or not.the
> >real problem was safety(not a problem with BB's) the powers at BB
> resisted
> >slides because in there minds they are not safe.when BB started to use
> the
> >bigger windows in the salon area of BB's this is how they tested the
> >body,with all the sheet metal in place and the window holes cut out they
> >place 3000 lbs of steel on the roof of the bird.they measured the opening
> >before and after placing the weight.just placing the weight on the roof
> >was not enough,they left it there for a week before they were sure that
> >there would be no problems. and that was just for a window! there was no
> >way that they would ever put a slide in a coach! randydupree93wb
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bobloomas
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: randydupree
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] 450 LXi and A Little History
> > Maybe Blue Bird should have change from steel body constuction to
> > aluminum just like Newell then they could have had a slidout years ago
> > and all the rest of the goodies that the motor home market demands.Even
> > bus conversion dont have a 300 gal. fuel tank or tank like
> > constuction.Had Blue Bird cut back on the heavy duty constuction back in
> > the early 90s all kinds of hell would have broke out.
> > Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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