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11-10-2007, 10:00

On 11/10/07, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> Converting the power generated by the magnetic retarder into
> batteries would be an interesting engineering challenge. The amount
> of current made can be quite significant for short periods of time --
> handling it might prove difficult (expensive).

Hybrid automobile battery packs are expensive for a reason: These
aren't your off-the-shelf rechargeable batteries. They're designed for
rapid charge/discharge cycles and that drives the cost up
significantly. I can't imagine the size of the battery bank and
controllers that would go into capturing the energy needed to stop a
20 ton rig. It would be hideously expensive.

All that being said I'll bet there are other options one could
explore. A massive flywheel, for instance, could potentially be used,
but that has it's own set of complications and drawbacks and may well
wind up being more expensive than batteries.

If we're asking, "Is it possible?", the answer is unequivocally yes.
However, cost effectiveness is another question all together.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

11-10-2007, 12:31

hey the price of fuel in the US is catching up to us
oops it just passed us
we pay 94.6 per liter which unadjusted is 3.57CDN then you factor in
the exchange an American dollar currently is approx 94 cents CDN

the only problem with dynamics is when the guy you relive does not
tell you they are not working makes life exciting at a red light

Stephen 77fc35
Dupreeproducts.com home of Treatzall holding tank Deodorant

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
wrote:
>
> On 11/10/07, Pete Masterson wrote:
> >
> > Converting the power generated by the magnetic retarder into
> > batteries would be an interesting engineering challenge. The amount
> > of current made can be quite significant for short periods of time --
> > handling it might prove difficult (expensive).
>
> Hybrid automobile battery packs are expensive for a reason: These
> aren't your off-the-shelf rechargeable batteries. They're designed for
> rapid charge/discharge cycles and that drives the cost up
> significantly. I can't imagine the size of the battery bank and
> controllers that would go into capturing the energy needed to stop a
> 20 ton rig. It would be hideously expensive.
>
> All that being said I'll bet there are other options one could
> explore. A massive flywheel, for instance, could potentially be used,
> but that has it's own set of complications and drawbacks and may well
> wind up being more expensive than batteries.
>
> If we're asking, "Is it possible?", the answer is unequivocally yes.
> However, cost effectiveness is another question all together.
>
> -Ryan
> '86 PT-40 8V92
>

11-10-2007, 12:32

Ryan,
With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel lines
in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel
will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured, it
will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in
mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of
advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower the
tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray foam
on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the tank
did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower and
then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we
could probably do one in a day.

Al Johnson
'96 BMC B75 ==> B100
Mandeville, Louisiana

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> >
> > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for the
guys
> > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel prices up
> > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably going
up
> > further as I type.
>
> $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting ridiculous.
> Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am going
> to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under
$1.00 a
> gallon from now on.
>
> As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
4.13mpg.
> That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
running
> and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed down
to
> ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and am
> careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg.
> Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not half
> bad.
>
> -Ryan
> '86 PT-40 8V92
>

11-10-2007, 14:24

With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are
thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach
will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a
half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
that's just the first year of retirement.

Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way????
Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to
run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!

Gardner
78FC33

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" wrote:
>
> Ryan,
> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
lines
> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel
> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured,
it
> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in
> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of
> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
the
> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
foam
> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
tank
> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower
and
> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we
> could probably do one in a day.
>
> Al Johnson
> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> Mandeville, Louisiana
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
> wrote:
> >
> > Jon,
> >
> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> > >
> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
the
> guys
> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
prices up
> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
going
> up
> > > further as I type.
> >
> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
ridiculous.
> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am
going
> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under
> $1.00 a
> > gallon from now on.
> >
> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
> 4.13mpg.
> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
> running
> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
down
> to
> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and
am
> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg.
> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
half
> > bad.
> >
> > -Ryan
> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> >
>

11-10-2007, 14:45

Gardner,
I get 8 mpg in my BMC 37 pulling a Ford Explorer. I like to run
her around 62 mph so I don't work her too hard :O>

Al Johnson
'96 BMC B75 ==> B100
Mandeville, Louisiana

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gardner Yeaw"
wrote:
>
> With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
> between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are
> thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
> retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach
> will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a
> half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> $12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> that's just the first year of retirement.
>
> Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the
way????
> Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler
to
> run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
>
> Gardner
> 78FC33
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" wrote:
> >
> > Ryan,
> > With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> lines
> > in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The
biodiesel
> > will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> > overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured,
> it
> > will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank
in
> > mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of
> > advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
> the
> > tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> foam
> > on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> tank
> > did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower
> and
> > then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now
we
> > could probably do one in a day.
> >
> > Al Johnson
> > '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> > Mandeville, Louisiana
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Jon,
> > >
> > > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
> the
> > guys
> > > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> prices up
> > > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> going
> > up
> > > > further as I type.
> > >
> > > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> ridiculous.
> > > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am
> going
> > > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under
> > $1.00 a
> > > gallon from now on.
> > >
> > > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
> > 4.13mpg.
> > > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
> > running
> > > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
> down
> > to
> > > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and
> am
> > > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg.
> > > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
> half
> > > bad.
> > >
> > > -Ryan
> > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > >
> >
>

11-10-2007, 15:40

Gardner,
Yea, then we would need a fireman and a stoker!!!

Sea Ya
Larry
NYC
84 35FCSB

----- Original Message ----
From: Gardner Yeaw
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 6:45:46 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Fuel economy

I wonder if we could retrofit a steam engine into one of the old

pushers. Then we might be able to run on wood!

Gardner

78FC33

--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon" wrote:

>

> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "bingomaster05"

> wrote:

> >

> > Reading the recent posts on bio fuel, made me wonder what kind

of

> fuel

> > mileage the various unit get. Do the FC's with the Cat do

better

> than

> > the 6V or 8V Detroits? Do pushers do better than the FC's?

What

> about

> > Toads..how much does it affect MPG. I would imagine that with

> Bluebirds

> > being so heavy, the higher power engines might actually be more

> > efficent. With the ever rising fuel costs, you have to wonder

how

> it

> > will affect the future of RVing in general. Thanks in advance.

> >

> > Dan Thomas

> > Wannabe

> > Central PA

>

>

>

> Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for the

guys

> who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel prices up

> here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably going up

> further as I type.

>

> My coach get an honest 10 mpg and that because I have a lighter

coach

> than most people here and I try to keep my speed down to gain that

> mileage. I have been thinking about installing higher gears to

gain

> another another mile or so on my fuel but is it worth it? I don't

> know?

>

> I think the RV industry will survive but I think you will see

people

> going back in smaller coaches that are light and efficient. With

> today's technology I would think that they could manufacture RV's

> that get much better mileage than we get in our units and still

have

> the comfort of a plush RV.

> >

>

> Jon

> Rebel Bird

> Bremerton

>







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11-10-2007, 15:48

I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means over-estimating, or
under-estimating, price. I also don't know anything about your personal
retirement financial situation. But...

I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that conservative?) to a
very great extent. Consider the following national averages for diesel:

2000 $1.49
2001 $1.40
2002 $1.32
2003 $1.51
2004 $1.81
2005 $2.40
2006 $2.71
2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)

So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more per year
than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe. Will it? Odds and
history say no.

Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or more per
year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero need to fill in high
price areas unless you are staying in one of those areas but still using fuel,
as apparently Ryan is. I arrived home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find
diesel at $3.79 and shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only
had 80 gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon.

I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average) in 2.5
years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed while the national
average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in October of '05 and $3.05 in
August of '06 also, and that is simpy a contributing factor to those year's
averages of $2.40 and $2.71, respectively.

At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end of 5mpg
for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving from 8.3 to 5.2
(and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is likely). I've averaged 15K
per year over the past 5 years, so it is not insignificant. It just points out
that travel is inherently expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now,
nor expect to be in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing
the country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel does
not put me past the breaking point.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:

>With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
>reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
>between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are
>thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
>retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach
>will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
>conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a
>half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
>$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
>that's just the first year of retirement.
>
> Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
>collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way????
>Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
>exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to
>run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
>another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
>
>Gardner
>78FC33
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" wrote:
>>
>> Ryan,
>> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
>lines
>> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel
>> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
>> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured,
>it
>> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in
>> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of
>> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
>the
>> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
>foam
>> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
>tank
>> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower
>and
>> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we
>> could probably do one in a day.
>>
>> Al Johnson
>> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
>> Mandeville, Louisiana
>>
>> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Jon,
>> >
>> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
>the
>> guys
>> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
>prices up
>> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
>going
>> up
>> > > further as I type.
>> >
>> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
>ridiculous.
>> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am
>going
>> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under
>> $1.00 a
>> > gallon from now on.
>> >
>> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
>> 4.13mpg.
>> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
>> running
>> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
>down
>> to
>> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and
>am
>> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg.
>> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
>half
>> > bad.
>> >
>> > -Ryan
>> > '86 PT-40 8V92
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

11-10-2007, 16:13

Don,
I am far from an expert in the reasons for the cost of fuel. I
believe the curent rise is the result more of Wall street
speculation than real supply/demand situation. Still, with the
growing need in foreign countries like China and the inherent
instability of the Mid-East/USA relationship it is not unreasonable
to expect the prices to be based on a more volital global situation.

That crap aside, I have been pretty careful about maintaining a
life style that allowed me to save for retirement and get my three
kids through the unreasonable cost of a college education. The thing
about retirement saveings is that you need to meter it out at a rate
that doesn't ignore the reality that there will be varying returns
during your 'golden' years. Although I have included a reasonable
inflation rate in my long term plans, I just hate to think that my
early, healthy years expenses will be a subject of regret later on.

Oh, the heck with it, a park bench ain't such a bad place to sleep
after all. And the way my memory is going, it will only seem last
one nignt anyway.

Gardner
78FC33

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means over-
estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know anything
about your personal retirement financial situation. But...
>
> I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that
conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following
national averages for diesel:
>
> 2000 $1.49
> 2001 $1.40
> 2002 $1.32
> 2003 $1.51
> 2004 $1.81
> 2005 $2.40
> 2006 $2.71
> 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)
>
> So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise
more per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it?
Maybe. Will it? Odds and history say no.
>
> Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles
or more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is
zero need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one
of those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I
arrived home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at
$3.79 and shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only
had 80 gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per
gallon.
>
> I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices
(average) in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when
viewed while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was
$3.15 in October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is
simpy a contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and
$2.71, respectively.
>
> At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low
end of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation
moving from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of
what is likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years,
so it is not insignificant. It just points out that travel is
inherently expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor
expect to be in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep
seeing the country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000
gallons of fuel does not put me past the breaking point.
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> Eureka, CA
>
> On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:
>
> >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
> >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We
are
> >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
> >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger
coach
> >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and
a
> >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> >that's just the first year of retirement.
> >
> > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the
way????
> >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler
to
> >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
> >
> >Gardner
> >78FC33
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" wrote:
> >>
> >> Ryan,
> >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> >lines
> >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The
biodiesel
> >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest
assured,
> >it
> >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank
in
> >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word
of
> >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
> >the
> >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> >foam
> >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> >tank
> >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to
lower
> >and
> >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now
we
> >> could probably do one in a day.
> >>
> >> Al Johnson
> >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> >> Mandeville, Louisiana
> >>
> >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Wright"
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Jon,
> >> >
> >> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
> >the
> >> guys
> >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> >prices up
> >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> >going
> >> up
> >> > > further as I type.
> >> >
> >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> >ridiculous.
> >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and
am
> >going
> >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down
under
> >> $1.00 a
> >> > gallon from now on.
> >> >
> >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
> >> 4.13mpg.
> >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
> >> running
> >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
> >down
> >> to
> >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down
and
> >am
> >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to
6mpg.
> >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
> >half
> >> > bad.
> >> >
> >> > -Ryan
> >> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

11-10-2007, 16:22

Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership.
For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K
per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K
for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of
.50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my
$40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only
shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed
costs.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC

Don Bradner wrote:
>
> I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means
> over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know
> anything about your personal retirement financial situation. But...
>
> I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that
> conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following national
> averages for diesel:
>
> 2000 $1.49
> 2001 $1.40
> 2002 $1.32
> 2003 $1.51
> 2004 $1.81
> 2005 $2.40
> 2006 $2.71
> 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)
>
> So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise more
> per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it? Maybe.
> Will it? Odds and history say no.
>
> Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K miles or
> more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is zero
> need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one of
> those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I arrived
> home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79 and
> shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80
> gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon.
>
> I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices (average)
> in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when viewed
> while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15 in
> October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is simpy a
> contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71,
> respectively.
>
> At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely low end
> of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation moving
> from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what is
> likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it is
> not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently
> expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect to be
> in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the
> country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons of fuel
> does not put me past the breaking point.
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> Eureka, CA
>
> On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:
>
> >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33 gets
> >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We are
> >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
> >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger coach
> >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two and a
> >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> >that's just the first year of retirement.
> >
> > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the way????
> >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam boiler to
> >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
> >
> >Gardner
> >78FC33
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "Al" wrote:
> >>
> >> Ryan,
> >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> >lines
> >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The biodiesel
> >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest assured,
> >it
> >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon tank in
> >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word of
> >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to lower
> >the
> >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> >foam
> >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> >tank
> >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to lower
> >and
> >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but now we
> >> could probably do one in a day.
> >>
> >> Al Johnson
> >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> >> Mandeville, Louisiana
> >>
> >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "Ryan Wright"
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Jon,
> >> >
> >> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
> >the
> >> guys
> >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> >prices up
> >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> >going
> >> up
> >> > > further as I type.
> >> >
> >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> >ridiculous.
> >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and am
> >going
> >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down under
> >> $1.00 a
> >> > gallon from now on.
> >> >
> >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far was
> >> 4.13mpg.
> >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the generator
> >> running
> >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I slowed
> >down
> >> to
> >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down and
> >am
> >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to 6mpg.
> >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's not
> >half
> >> > bad.
> >> >
> >> > -Ryan
> >> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

11-10-2007, 16:27

David,
I agree that with a 2002 coach you are still eating the
depreciation at a high rate, but I am looking at mid 80's coaches
where the depreciation is far less. 20k for storage and maintenance
is a pretty big number. I pay about $800 for storage and maybe 1 or
2k for maintenance. I can do most things myself.

Actually I thought the steam engine would elicit more of a
reaction.

Gardner
78FC33

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> Fuel is still a small part of the total cost of ownership.
> For my coach I figure $20K per year depreciation, $10K
> per year for storage and insurance, and another $10K
> for annual maintenance. If I travel 10K miles at a cost of
> .50 cents per mile that's an incremental $5K on top of my
> $40K of fixed costs. Even if fuel doubles in price I'm only
> shelling out $10K, still a fraction of my $40K of annual fixed
> costs.
>
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> Don Bradner wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure whether conservative in this context means
> > over-estimating, or under-estimating, price. I also don't know
> > anything about your personal retirement financial situation.
But...
> >
> > I find $6 per gallon in 2.5 years to be pessimistic (is that
> > conservative?) to a very great extent. Consider the following
national
> > averages for diesel:
> >
> > 2000 $1.49
> > 2001 $1.40
> > 2002 $1.32
> > 2003 $1.51
> > 2004 $1.81
> > 2005 $2.40
> > 2006 $2.71
> > 2007 $2.95 (estimate to date, current at peak 3.30)
> >
> > So, to be an average of $6 in 2-1/2 years it will have to rise
more
> > per year than it ever has in any year to this point. Can it?
Maybe.
> > Will it? Odds and history say no.
> >
> > Those of us with 300 gallon fuel tanks who are out doing 10K
miles or
> > more per year do not pay average prices, we pay less. There is
zero
> > need to fill in high price areas unless you are staying in one
of
> > those areas but still using fuel, as apparently Ryan is. I
arrived
> > home in Eureka, California on Tuesday to find diesel at $3.79
and
> > shook my head - used to have to buy some here when I only had 80
> > gallon capacity in my SOB even if I did get 8.3 miles per gallon.
> >
> > I would say that a more realistic expectation of fuel prices
(average)
> > in 2.5 years is $4 per gallon. I know that looks rosy when
viewed
> > while the national average is $3.30, but remember it was $3.15
in
> > October of '05 and $3.05 in August of '06 also, and that is
simpy a
> > contributing factor to those year's averages of $2.40 and $2.71,
> > respectively.
> >
> > At 10K miles and $4, your difference, even using the unlikely
low end
> > of 5mpg for a PT40, is about $3300. I have a similar situation
moving
> > from 8.3 to 5.2 (and I suspect my 5.2 is on the low end of what
is
> > likely). I've averaged 15K per year over the past 5 years, so it
is
> > not insignificant. It just points out that travel is inherently
> > expensive, something I'm well aware of. I am not now, nor expect
to be
> > in the future, a wealthy man, but I do intend to keep seeing the
> > country as long as I can afford it, and the extra 1000 gallons
of fuel
> > does not put me past the breaking point.
> >
> > Don Bradner
> > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > Eureka, CA
> >
> > On 11/11/2007 at 2:24 AM Gardner Yeaw wrote:
> >
> > >With the recent surge in fuel prices I am being forced to
> > >reconsider our desire to upgrade to a PT 38 or 40. My 78FC33
gets
> > >between 8.5 and 9.2 mpg towing my 1995 Jeep Cherokee sport. We
are
> > >thinking around 8 to 10k miles each year for the first few after
> > >retirement. Cutting the mileage roughly in half with a bigger
coach
> > >will put a huge dent in the finances. If I just assumed
> > >conservatively that diesel will be around $6 a gallon in two
and a
> > >half years: at 8.5mpg, 10k miles =$7,058, at 5mpg, 10k miles =
> > >$12,000 (3rd grade arithmetic really was useful after all). And
> > >that's just the first year of retirement.
> > >
> > > Now if I could tow a portable bio-diesel system behind me and
> > >collect vegetable oil from the various food venues along the
way????
> > >Actually, why not use the heat from the retarder and the diesel
> > >exhaust and coolant system to pre-heat water for the steam
boiler to
> > >run a hybrid diesel-steam engine system? Honey, would you throw
> > >another log on the fire, this next hill is a steep one!
> > >
> > >Gardner
> > >78FC33
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Al" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ryan,
> > >> With an '86, you are certain to have to change out all fuel
> > >lines
> > >> in her to make them compatible with your biodiesel. The
biodiesel
> > >> will eat out the fuel lines from within. They will not fail
> > >> overnight and you will start to see them leak. But rest
assured,
> > >it
> > >> will have to be done. Bob Loomis and dropped a 150 gallon
tank in
> > >> mine and I would hate to have to do it will 300 gallons. Word
of
> > >> advice, when you do it, go buy all-thread and use them to
lower
> > >the
> > >> tank with fuel in it. Chances are you will have all the spray
> > >foam
> > >> on the tank. When we did mine, even with some fuel in it, the
> > >tank
> > >> did not budge. We had to top her off and use the weight to
lower
> > >and
> > >> then drain out the fuel. Took us better part of a week but
now we
> > >> could probably do one in a day.
> > >>
> > >> Al Johnson
> > >> '96 BMC B75 ==> B100
> > >> Mandeville, Louisiana
> > >>
> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Ryan Wright"
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Jon,
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11/9/07, Jon wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Dan I think the future of these big units will be only for
> > >the
> > >> guys
> > >> > > who have those extra retirement bucks. Our diesel fuel
> > >prices up
> > >> > > here in Washington are almost 3.60 a gallon and probably
> > >going
> > >> up
> > >> > > further as I type.
> > >> >
> > >> > $3.80 a gallon down the street from me. This is getting
> > >ridiculous.
> > >> > Thankfully, I have found a source of used vegetable oil and
am
> > >going
> > >> > to process my own bio diesel. That will get my cost down
under
> > >> $1.00 a
> > >> > gallon from now on.
> > >> >
> > >> > As for me, my '86 PT-40's (8V92) worst gas mileage so far
was
> > >> 4.13mpg.
> > >> > That was sailing through Nebraska at 80mph with the
generator
> > >> running
> > >> > and four A/Cs on full blast. Later in the trip, when I
slowed
> > >down
> > >> to
> > >> > ~70mph, I got about 5mpg. I believe if I keep my speed down
and
> > >am
> > >> > careful on my next trip I'll be able to coax her closer to
6mpg.
> > >> > Honestly, for a coach that weighs in at 41,000lbs, that's
not
> > >half
> > >> > bad.
> > >> >
> > >> > -Ryan
> > >> > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic
> >
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