Xantrex RV 3012 M Inverter Installation, Reinventing the wheel!

[bumpersbird]

The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS controlers
arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg packaging.

cost to date:

$1370.00 inverters.
$ 305.00 controls.
$ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.

I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right side in
place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and sometimes wet
inverter box in the engine compartment.

After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to hold 2
more house batteries.

I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with sheet metal,
and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced the
small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces and ran
an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+ lbs. of
weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it does not
move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.

There is the question of how large the wires have to be that connect
the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of cable to
get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable of late
it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350 MCM
welding cable.

It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble figuring out
how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame rail would
be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the coach,
poking around, this will be impossible without getting the coach on a
lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches that have
factory installed inverters in the bays?

Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size. YIKES!!!


Dear Kurt Horvath,

My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even know
existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the run to
12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?

For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure to
leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the subject line
or body of the email.

Allegra Sloman
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.

Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????

There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the wheel
well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay and
forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the cables
but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear, not to
mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good choice. Any
ideas on this option?

I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't know much
about how this system works. Or what is required to change from the
two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it reduces the
required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be helpful.

I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the engine
bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a small problem
the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control wires
call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data line. I'm
told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't gotten
that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to re-run the
control lines through the whole coach.

One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now surrounded by
water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small water tank
on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll just have
to keep an eye out for leaks.

I am considering installing some small fans with snap thermostats to
control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for ideas. You
can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the fuel tank.
That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the fans on the
shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But here again
hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards. I'm not
even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of fun.


Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42 WLWB
Fayetteville TN



PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting the new
inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old inverters
were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!

[Gregory OConnor]

Kurt,
Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the heart
inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof and may
be even taller????

With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top
battery tray was removed.
http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717

you can also split the inverters up?????????


GregoryO'Connor


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bumpersbird"
wrote:
>
> The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS
controlers
> arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg packaging.
>
> cost to date:
>
> $1370.00 inverters.
> $ 305.00 controls.
> $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.
>
> I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right side in
> place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and sometimes
wet
> inverter box in the engine compartment.
>
> After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to hold
2
> more house batteries.
>
> I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with sheet
metal,
> and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced the
> small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces and
ran
> an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+ lbs. of
> weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it does not
> move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.
>
> There is the question of how large the wires have to be that
connect
> the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of cable
to
> get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable of late
> it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350 MCM
> welding cable.
>
> It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble figuring
out
> how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame rail
would
> be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the
coach,
> poking around, this will be impossible without getting the coach
on a
> lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches that
have
> factory installed inverters in the bays?
>
> Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size. YIKES!!!
>
>
> Dear Kurt Horvath,
>
> My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even know
> existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the run
to
> 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?
>
> For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure to
> leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the subject
line
> or body of the email.
>
> Allegra Sloman
> Customer Service Operations
> Xantrex Technology Inc.
>
> Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????
>
> There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the wheel
> well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay and
> forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the
cables
> but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear, not to
> mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good choice. Any
> ideas on this option?
>
> I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't know
much
> about how this system works. Or what is required to change from
the
> two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it reduces the
> required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be helpful.
>
> I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the
engine
> bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a small
problem
> the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control wires
> call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data line.
I'm
> told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't gotten
> that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to re-run
the
> control lines through the whole coach.
>
> One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now surrounded
by
> water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small water
tank
> on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll just
have
> to keep an eye out for leaks.
>
> I am considering installing some small fans with snap thermostats
to
> control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for ideas.
You
> can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the fuel
tank.
> That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the fans on
the
> shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But here
again
> hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards. I'm
not
> even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of fun.
>
>
> Kurt Horvath
> 95 PT-42 WLWB
> Fayetteville TN
>
>
>
> PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting the new
> inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old
inverters
> were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!
>

[bumpersbird]

Gregg,

Your probably right.

I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power techs
etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it does
not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC side
decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12' it may
not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an
invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt

I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is it's
better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as possible,
even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way those
who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.

So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the engine
compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a
problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent it in
some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The fans
that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also help a
lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side grill.
The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some sort of
air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior somewhat
clean.

I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and in time
switching to something else could happen, but these will have to die
first, especially at $600.00 each

SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying to
reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of Bluebirds
bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old inverters
were in there for 13 years.

Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal lined, Looks
good and should be easier to clean.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42 WLWB
Fayetteville TN



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Kurt,
> Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the heart
> inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof and may
> be even taller????
>
> With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top
> battery tray was removed.
> http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717
>
> you can also split the inverters up?????????
>
>
> GregoryO'Connor
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bumpersbird"
> wrote:
> >
> > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS
> controlers
> > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg packaging.
> >
> > cost to date:
> >
> > $1370.00 inverters.
> > $ 305.00 controls.
> > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.
> >
> > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right side
in
> > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and sometimes
> wet
> > inverter box in the engine compartment.
> >
> > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to hold
> 2
> > more house batteries.
> >
> > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with sheet
> metal,
> > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced the
> > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces and
> ran
> > an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+ lbs. of
> > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it does
not
> > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.
> >
> > There is the question of how large the wires have to be that
> connect
> > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of cable
> to
> > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable of
late
> > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350 MCM
> > welding cable.
> >
> > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble figuring
> out
> > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame rail
> would
> > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the
> coach,
> > poking around, this will be impossible without getting the coach
> on a
> > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches that
> have
> > factory installed inverters in the bays?
> >
> > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size. YIKES!!!
> >
> >
> > Dear Kurt Horvath,
> >
> > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even know
> > existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the run
> to
> > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?
> >
> > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure to
> > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the subject
> line
> > or body of the email.
> >
> > Allegra Sloman
> > Customer Service Operations
> > Xantrex Technology Inc.
> >
> > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????
> >
> > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the
wheel
> > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay and
> > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the
> cables
> > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear, not to
> > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good choice.
Any
> > ideas on this option?
> >
> > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't know
> much
> > about how this system works. Or what is required to change from
> the
> > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it reduces
the
> > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be helpful.
> >
> > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the
> engine
> > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a small
> problem
> > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control
wires
> > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data line.
> I'm
> > told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't
gotten
> > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to re-run
> the
> > control lines through the whole coach.
> >
> > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now
surrounded
> by
> > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small water
> tank
> > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll just
> have
> > to keep an eye out for leaks.
> >
> > I am considering installing some small fans with snap thermostats
> to
> > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for ideas.
> You
> > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the fuel
> tank.
> > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the fans on
> the
> > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But here
> again
> > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards. I'm
> not
> > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of fun.
> >
> >
> > Kurt Horvath
> > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > Fayetteville TN
> >
> >
> >
> > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting the
new
> > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old
> inverters
> > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!
> >
>

[Gregory OConnor]

The only time it is hot is when the engine is running. I learned
with the refer mod that moving air with a fan has little cooling
effect. replacing the air in the compartment with a fan has the most
advantage.

If you look at the inverter box that BB engineeres (BirdBrains)
installed(in my '94), it floats in the battery compartment with air
gap around the entire box. Even the material it is made of looks
like it is a special (maybe, low heat conductive) product???????I
wonder if the box by design cools with passing air as you drive or
is there a better way to move the engine heated air away from the
inverter box? I wonder if a scoop would move more air or hinder the
existing path

The "three enemies of inverters" Xantrex quote may be three enimies
of an Inverter/Charger and not necessarly of just the stand alone
inverter??????? . I wonder why BB speced units with remote
batterychargers??? and why they moved the chargers so far away. Is
it a heat issue with the chargers only??? .

if Chargers-only have the heat issue (prompting the BirdBrain move),
chargers are not worked while driving unless you drive with the
genset running, so while driving heat is of no issue with inverter
only???? It may be that you need to cut 110V input to the inverter/
chargers when the detroit is running (or InverterBox temp is too
hot) to keep the chargers from lighting up if the genset is used.

GregoryO'Connor
94pt in need of new inverter chargers.


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bumpersbird"
wrote:
>
> Gregg,
>
> Your probably right.
>
> I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power
techs
> etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it does
> not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC
side
> decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12' it
may
> not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an
> invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt
>
> I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is
it's
> better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as
possible,
> even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way
those
> who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.
>
> So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the
engine
> compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a
> problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent it
in
> some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The fans
> that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also
help a
> lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side
grill.
> The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some sort
of
> air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior
somewhat
> clean.
>
> I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and in time
> switching to something else could happen, but these will have to
die
> first, especially at $600.00 each
>
> SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying to
> reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of
Bluebirds
> bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old
inverters
> were in there for 13 years.
>
> Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal lined,
Looks
> good and should be easier to clean.
>
> Kurt Horvath
> 95 PT-42 WLWB
> Fayetteville TN
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
> wrote:
> >
> > Kurt,
> > Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the
heart
> > inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof and
may
> > be even taller????
> >
> > With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top
> > battery tray was removed.
> > http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717
> >
> > you can also split the inverters up?????????
> >
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bumpersbird"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS
> > controlers
> > > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg
packaging.
> > >
> > > cost to date:
> > >
> > > $1370.00 inverters.
> > > $ 305.00 controls.
> > > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.
> > >
> > > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right
side
> in
> > > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and
sometimes
> > wet
> > > inverter box in the engine compartment.
> > >
> > > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to
hold
> > 2
> > > more house batteries.
> > >
> > > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with sheet
> > metal,
> > > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced
the
> > > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces
and
> > ran
> > > an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+ lbs.
of
> > > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it does
> not
> > > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.
> > >
> > > There is the question of how large the wires have to be that
> > connect
> > > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of
cable
> > to
> > > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable of
> late
> > > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350 MCM
> > > welding cable.
> > >
> > > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble
figuring
> > out
> > > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame rail
> > would
> > > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the
> > coach,
> > > poking around, this will be impossible without getting the
coach
> > on a
> > > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches that
> > have
> > > factory installed inverters in the bays?
> > >
> > > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size. YIKES!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Kurt Horvath,
> > >
> > > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even
know
> > > existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the
run
> > to
> > > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?
> > >
> > > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure
to
> > > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the subject
> > line
> > > or body of the email.
> > >
> > > Allegra Sloman
> > > Customer Service Operations
> > > Xantrex Technology Inc.
> > >
> > > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????
> > >
> > > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the
> wheel
> > > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay and
> > > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the
> > cables
> > > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear, not
to
> > > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good choice.
> Any
> > > ideas on this option?
> > >
> > > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't know
> > much
> > > about how this system works. Or what is required to change
from
> > the
> > > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it reduces
> the
> > > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be helpful.
> > >
> > > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the
> > engine
> > > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a small
> > problem
> > > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control
> wires
> > > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data
line.
> > I'm
> > > told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't
> gotten
> > > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to re-
run
> > the
> > > control lines through the whole coach.
> > >
> > > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now
> surrounded
> > by
> > > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small
water
> > tank
> > > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll
just
> > have
> > > to keep an eye out for leaks.
> > >
> > > I am considering installing some small fans with snap
thermostats
> > to
> > > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for
ideas.
> > You
> > > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the fuel
> > tank.
> > > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the fans
on
> > the
> > > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But here
> > again
> > > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards.
I'm
> > not
> > > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of fun.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kurt Horvath
> > > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > > Fayetteville TN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting the
> new
> > > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old
> > inverters
> > > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!
> > >
> >
>

[Dorn Hetzel]

I'm absolutely planning on running the 3012 I bought while the engine is running, to provide some amount of 120VAC while driving down the road. I'm considering mounting it inside the coach in the cabinet behind the drivers seat, since that would be within two or three feet of the batteries...


Dorn Hetzel
77FC35
Hogansville, GA

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Gregory OConnor <"Gregoryoc@aol.com"> wrote:

The only time it is hot is when the engine is running. I learned

with the refer mod that moving air with a fan has little cooling

effect. replacing the air in the compartment with a fan has the most

advantage.



If you look at the inverter box that BB engineeres (BirdBrains)

installed(in my '94), it floats in the battery compartment with air

gap around the entire box. Even the material it is made of looks

like it is a special (maybe, low heat conductive) product???????I

wonder if the box by design cools with passing air as you drive or

is there a better way to move the engine heated air away from the

inverter box? I wonder if a scoop would move more air or hinder the

existing path



The "three enemies of inverters" Xantrex quote may be three enimies

of an Inverter/Charger and not necessarly of just the stand alone

inverter??????? . I wonder why BB speced units with remote

batterychargers??? and why they moved the chargers so far away. Is

it a heat issue with the chargers only??? .



if Chargers-only have the heat issue (prompting the BirdBrain move),

chargers are not worked while driving unless you drive with the

genset running, so while driving heat is of no issue with inverter

only???? It may be that you need to cut 110V input to the inverter/

chargers when the detroit is running (or InverterBox temp is too

hot) to keep the chargers from lighting up if the genset is used.



GregoryO'Connor

94pt in need of new inverter chargers.

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "bumpersbird"

wrote:

>

> Gregg,

>

> Your probably right.

>

> I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power

techs

> etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it does

> not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC

side

> decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12' it

may

> not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an

> invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt

>

> I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is

it's

> better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as

possible,

> even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way

those

> who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.

>

> So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the

engine

> compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a

> problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent it

in

> some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The fans

> that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also

help a

> lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side

grill.

> The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some sort

of

> air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior

somewhat

> clean.

>

> I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and in time

> switching to something else could happen, but these will have to

die

> first, especially at $600.00 each

>

> SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying to

> reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of

Bluebirds

> bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old

inverters

> were in there for 13 years.

>

> Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal lined,

Looks

> good and should be easier to clean.

>

> Kurt Horvath

> 95 PT-42 WLWB

> Fayetteville TN

>

>

>

> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Gregory OConnor"

> wrote:

> >

> > Kurt,

> > Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the

heart

> > inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof and

may

> > be even taller????

> >

> > With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top

> > battery tray was removed.

> > http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717

> >

> > you can also split the inverters up?????????

> >

> >

> > GregoryO'Connor

> >

> >

> > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "bumpersbird"

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS

> > controlers

> > > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg

packaging.

> > >

> > > cost to date:

> > >

> > > $1370.00 inverters.

> > > $ 305.00 controls.

> > > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.

> > >

> > > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right

side

> in

> > > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and

sometimes

> > wet

> > > inverter box in the engine compartment.

> > >

> > > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to

hold

> > 2

> > > more house batteries.

> > >

> > > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with sheet

> > metal,

> > > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced

the

> > > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces

and

> > ran

> > > an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+ lbs.

of

> > > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it does

> not

> > > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.

> > >

> > > There is the question of how large the wires have to be that

> > connect

> > > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of

cable

> > to

> > > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable of

> late

> > > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350 MCM

> > > welding cable.

> > >

> > > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble

figuring

> > out

> > > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame rail

> > would

> > > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the

> > coach,

> > > poking around, this will be impossible without getting the

coach

> > on a

> > > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches that

> > have

> > > factory installed inverters in the bays?

> > >

> > > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size. YIKES!!!

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Kurt Horvath,

> > >

> > > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even

know

> > > existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the

run

> > to

> > > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?

> > >

> > > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make sure

to

> > > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the subject

> > line

> > > or body of the email.

> > >

> > > Allegra Sloman

> > > Customer Service Operations

> > > Xantrex Technology Inc.

> > >

> > > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????

> > >

> > > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the

> wheel

> > > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay and

> > > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the

> > cables

> > > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear, not

to

> > > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good choice.

> Any

> > > ideas on this option?

> > >

> > > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't know

> > much

> > > about how this system works. Or what is required to change

from

> > the

> > > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it reduces

> the

> > > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be helpful.

> > >

> > > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the

> > engine

> > > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a small

> > problem

> > > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control

> wires

> > > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data

line.

> > I'm

> > > told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't

> gotten

> > > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to re-

run

> > the

> > > control lines through the whole coach.

> > >

> > > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now

> surrounded

> > by

> > > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small

water

> > tank

> > > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll

just

> > have

> > > to keep an eye out for leaks.

> > >

> > > I am considering installing some small fans with snap

thermostats

> > to

> > > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for

ideas.

> > You

> > > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the fuel

> > tank.

> > > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the fans

on

> > the

> > > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But here

> > again

> > > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards.

I'm

> > not

> > > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of fun.

> > >

> > >

> > > Kurt Horvath

> > > 95 PT-42 WLWB

> > > Fayetteville TN

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting the

> new

> > > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old

> > inverters

> > > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!

> > >

> >

>

[bumpersbird]

Dorn,

Yes a cool, dry, clean place for the new unit. Within a few feet of
the batterries. Sounds perfect, speaking of sound. Did you notice the
large cooling fan on the back of the inverter. I wonder how loud that
baby is when she spins up? You could vent that fan out of the cabinet
somehow, maybe like a side wall mounted water heater. I am sure you
will have to vent it somehow. The installation instructions warn
about mounting in an enclosed space.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42
10AC


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Dorn Hetzel"
wrote:
>
> I'm absolutely planning on running the 3012 I bought while the
engine is
> running, to provide some amount of 120VAC while driving down the
road. I'm
> considering mounting it inside the coach in the cabinet behind the
drivers
> seat, since that would be within two or three feet of the
batteries...
>
> Dorn Hetzel
> 77FC35
> Hogansville, GA
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Gregory OConnor
wrote:
>
> > The only time it is hot is when the engine is running. I learned
> > with the refer mod that moving air with a fan has little cooling
> > effect. replacing the air in the compartment with a fan has the
most
> > advantage.
> >
> > If you look at the inverter box that BB engineeres (BirdBrains)
> > installed(in my '94), it floats in the battery compartment with
air
> > gap around the entire box. Even the material it is made of looks
> > like it is a special (maybe, low heat conductive) product???????I
> > wonder if the box by design cools with passing air as you drive or
> > is there a better way to move the engine heated air away from the
> > inverter box? I wonder if a scoop would move more air or hinder
the
> > existing path
> >
> > The "three enemies of inverters" Xantrex quote may be three
enimies
> > of an Inverter/Charger and not necessarly of just the stand alone
> > inverter??????? . I wonder why BB speced units with remote
> > batterychargers??? and why they moved the chargers so far away. Is
> > it a heat issue with the chargers only??? .
> >
> > if Chargers-only have the heat issue (prompting the BirdBrain
move),
> > chargers are not worked while driving unless you drive with the
> > genset running, so while driving heat is of no issue with inverter
> > only???? It may be that you need to cut 110V input to the
inverter/
> > chargers when the detroit is running (or InverterBox temp is too
> > hot) to keep the chargers from lighting up if the genset is used.
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94pt in need of new inverter chargers.
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "bumpersbird"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Gregg,
> > >
> > > Your probably right.
> > >
> > > I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power
> > techs
> > > etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it
does
> > > not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC
> > side
> > > decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12'
it
> > may
> > > not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an
> > > invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt
> > >
> > > I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is
> > it's
> > > better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as
> > possible,
> > > even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way
> > those
> > > who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.
> > >
> > > So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the
> > engine
> > > compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a
> > > problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent
it
> > in
> > > some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The
fans
> > > that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also
> > help a
> > > lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side
> > grill.
> > > The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some
sort
> > of
> > > air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior
> > somewhat
> > > clean.
> > >
> > > I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and in
time
> > > switching to something else could happen, but these will have to
> > die
> > > first, especially at $600.00 each
> > >
> > > SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying to
> > > reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of
> > Bluebirds
> > > bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old
> > inverters
> > > were in there for 13 years.
> > >
> > > Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal lined,
> > Looks
> > > good and should be easier to clean.
> > >
> > > Kurt Horvath
> > > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > > Fayetteville TN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Gregory OConnor"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kurt,
> > > > Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the
> > heart
> > > > inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof
and
> > may
> > > > be even taller????
> > > >
> > > > With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top
> > > > battery tray was removed.
> > > > http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717
> > > >
> > > > you can also split the inverters up?????????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > GregoryO'Connor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "bumpersbird"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS
> > > > controlers
> > > > > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg
> > packaging.
> > > > >
> > > > > cost to date:
> > > > >
> > > > > $1370.00 inverters.
> > > > > $ 305.00 controls.
> > > > > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.
> > > > >
> > > > > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right
> > side
> > > in
> > > > > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and
> > sometimes
> > > > wet
> > > > > inverter box in the engine compartment.
> > > > >
> > > > > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to
> > hold
> > > > 2
> > > > > more house batteries.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with
sheet
> > > > metal,
> > > > > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced
> > the
> > > > > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces
> > and
> > > > ran
> > > > > an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+
lbs.
> > of
> > > > > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it
does
> > > not
> > > > > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is the question of how large the wires have to be that
> > > > connect
> > > > > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of
> > cable
> > > > to
> > > > > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable
of
> > > late
> > > > > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350
MCM
> > > > > welding cable.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble
> > figuring
> > > > out
> > > > > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame
rail
> > > > would
> > > > > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the
> > > > coach,
> > > > > poking around, this will be impossible without getting the
> > coach
> > > > on a
> > > > > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches
that
> > > > have
> > > > > factory installed inverters in the bays?
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size.
YIKES!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Kurt Horvath,
> > > > >
> > > > > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even
> > know
> > > > > existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the
> > run
> > > > to
> > > > > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?
> > > > >
> > > > > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make
sure
> > to
> > > > > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the
subject
> > > > line
> > > > > or body of the email.
> > > > >
> > > > > Allegra Sloman
> > > > > Customer Service Operations
> > > > > Xantrex Technology Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????
> > > > >
> > > > > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the
> > > wheel
> > > > > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay
and
> > > > > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the
> > > > cables
> > > > > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear,
not
> > to
> > > > > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good
choice.
> > > Any
> > > > > ideas on this option?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't
know
> > > > much
> > > > > about how this system works. Or what is required to change
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it
reduces
> > > the
> > > > > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be
helpful.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the
> > > > engine
> > > > > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a
small
> > > > problem
> > > > > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control
> > > wires
> > > > > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data
> > line.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't
> > > gotten
> > > > > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to
re-
> > run
> > > > the
> > > > > control lines through the whole coach.
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now
> > > surrounded
> > > > by
> > > > > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small
> > water
> > > > tank
> > > > > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll
> > just
> > > > have
> > > > > to keep an eye out for leaks.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am considering installing some small fans with snap
> > thermostats
> > > > to
> > > > > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for
> > ideas.
> > > > You
> > > > > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the
fuel
> > > > tank.
> > > > > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the
fans
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But
here
> > > > again
> > > > > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards.
> > I'm
> > > > not
> > > > > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of
fun.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > > > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > > > > Fayetteville TN
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting
the
> > > new
> > > > > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old
> > > > inverters
> > > > > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Dorn Hetzel]

I'm considering pulling the under-couch propane heater that doesn't work anyway and using it's vent to route the inverter hot air out.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:33 AM, bumpersbird <"bumpersbird@yahoo.com"> wrote:

Dorn,



Yes a cool, dry, clean place for the new unit. Within a few feet of

the batterries. Sounds perfect, speaking of sound. Did you notice the

large cooling fan on the back of the inverter. I wonder how loud that

baby is when she spins up? You could vent that fan out of the cabinet

somehow, maybe like a side wall mounted water heater. I am sure you

will have to vent it somehow. The installation instructions warn

about mounting in an enclosed space.

Kurt Horvath

95 PT-42

10AC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Dorn Hetzel"

wrote:

>

> I'm absolutely planning on running the 3012 I bought while the

engine is

> running, to provide some amount of 120VAC while driving down the

road. I'm

> considering mounting it inside the coach in the cabinet behind the

drivers

> seat, since that would be within two or three feet of the

batteries...

>

> Dorn Hetzel

> 77FC35

> Hogansville, GA

>

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Gregory OConnor

wrote:

>

> > The only time it is hot is when the engine is running. I learned

> > with the refer mod that moving air with a fan has little cooling

> > effect. replacing the air in the compartment with a fan has the

most

> > advantage.

> >

> > If you look at the inverter box that BB engineeres (BirdBrains)

> > installed(in my '94), it floats in the battery compartment with

air

> > gap around the entire box. Even the material it is made of looks

> > like it is a special (maybe, low heat conductive) product???????I

> > wonder if the box by design cools with passing air as you drive or

> > is there a better way to move the engine heated air away from the

> > inverter box? I wonder if a scoop would move more air or hinder

the

> > existing path

> >

> > The "three enemies of inverters" Xantrex quote may be three

enimies

> > of an Inverter/Charger and not necessarly of just the stand alone

> > inverter??????? . I wonder why BB speced units with remote

> > batterychargers??? and why they moved the chargers so far away. Is

> > it a heat issue with the chargers only??? .

> >

> > if Chargers-only have the heat issue (prompting the BirdBrain

move),

> > chargers are not worked while driving unless you drive with the

> > genset running, so while driving heat is of no issue with inverter

> > only???? It may be that you need to cut 110V input to the

inverter/

> > chargers when the detroit is running (or InverterBox temp is too

> > hot) to keep the chargers from lighting up if the genset is used.

> >

> > GregoryO'Connor

> > 94pt in need of new inverter chargers.

> >

> >

> > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "bumpersbird"

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Gregg,

> > >

> > > Your probably right.

> > >

> > > I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power

> > techs

> > > etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it

does

> > > not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC

> > side

> > > decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12'

it

> > may

> > > not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an

> > > invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt

> > >

> > > I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is

> > it's

> > > better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as

> > possible,

> > > even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way

> > those

> > > who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.

> > >

> > > So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the

> > engine

> > > compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a

> > > problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent

it

> > in

> > > some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The

fans

> > > that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also

> > help a

> > > lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side

> > grill.

> > > The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some

sort

> > of

> > > air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior

> > somewhat

> > > clean.

> > >

> > > I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and in

time

> > > switching to something else could happen, but these will have to

> > die

> > > first, especially at $600.00 each

> > >

> > > SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying to

> > > reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of

> > Bluebirds

> > > bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old

> > inverters

> > > were in there for 13 years.

> > >

> > > Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal lined,

> > Looks

> > > good and should be easier to clean.

> > >

> > > Kurt Horvath

> > > 95 PT-42 WLWB

> > > Fayetteville TN

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "Gregory OConnor"

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Kurt,

> > > > Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp the

> > heart

> > > > inverter box area above the batteries to make it waterproof

and

> > may

> > > > be even taller????

> > > >

> > > > With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the top

> > > > battery tray was removed.

> > > > http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717

> > > >

> > > > you can also split the inverters up?????????

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GregoryO'Connor

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "bumpersbird"

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS

> > > > controlers

> > > > > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg

> > packaging.

> > > > >

> > > > > cost to date:

> > > > >

> > > > > $1370.00 inverters.

> > > > > $ 305.00 controls.

> > > > > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.

> > > > >

> > > > > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3, right

> > side

> > > in

> > > > > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and

> > sometimes

> > > > wet

> > > > > inverter box in the engine compartment.

> > > > >

> > > > > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter box to

> > hold

> > > > 2

> > > > > more house batteries.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with

sheet

> > > > metal,

> > > > > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also replaced

> > the

> > > > > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun braces

> > and

> > > > ran

> > > > > an angle support under the shelf to help support the 120+

lbs.

> > of

> > > > > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf it

does

> > > not

> > > > > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is the question of how large the wires have to be that

> > > > connect

> > > > > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115' of

> > cable

> > > > to

> > > > > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper cable

of

> > > late

> > > > > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for 350

MCM

> > > > > welding cable.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble

> > figuring

> > > > out

> > > > > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the frame

rail

> > > > would

> > > > > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours under the

> > > > coach,

> > > > > poking around, this will be impossible without getting the

> > coach

> > > > on a

> > > > > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the coaches

that

> > > > have

> > > > > factory installed inverters in the bays?

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size.

YIKES!!!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kurt Horvath,

> > > > >

> > > > > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't even

> > know

> > > > > existed until just now. Is there any way you can shorten the

> > run

> > > > to

> > > > > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?

> > > > >

> > > > > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make

sure

> > to

> > > > > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the

subject

> > > > line

> > > > > or body of the email.

> > > > >

> > > > > Allegra Sloman

> > > > > Customer Service Operations

> > > > > Xantrex Technology Inc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????

> > > > >

> > > > > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside of the

> > > wheel

> > > > > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank bay

and

> > > > > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to run the

> > > > cables

> > > > > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and tear,

not

> > to

> > > > > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good

choice.

> > > Any

> > > > > ideas on this option?

> > > > >

> > > > > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really don't

know

> > > > much

> > > > > about how this system works. Or what is required to change

> > from

> > > > the

> > > > > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it

reduces

> > > the

> > > > > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be

helpful.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires from the

> > > > engine

> > > > > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a

small

> > > > problem

> > > > > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new control

> > > wires

> > > > > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old data

> > line.

> > > > I'm

> > > > > told that these can be used with a little effort. I haven't

> > > gotten

> > > > > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have to

re-

> > run

> > > > the

> > > > > control lines through the whole coach.

> > > > >

> > > > > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now

> > > surrounded

> > > > by

> > > > > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a small

> > water

> > > > tank

> > > > > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess I'll

> > just

> > > > have

> > > > > to keep an eye out for leaks.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am considering installing some small fans with snap

> > thermostats

> > > > to

> > > > > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking for

> > ideas.

> > > > You

> > > > > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against the

fuel

> > > > tank.

> > > > > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the

fans

> > on

> > > > the

> > > > > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay. But

here

> > > > again

> > > > > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it downwards.

> > I'm

> > > > not

> > > > > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of

fun.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Kurt Horvath

> > > > > 95 PT-42 WLWB

> > > > > Fayetteville TN

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering putting

the

> > > new

> > > > > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the old

> > > > inverters

> > > > > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[bumpersbird]

Well there you go, sounds like a good spot for the inverter.
Did you get a RC7 or RC7/GS control for the inverter?

Kurt Horvath
95 PT-42
10AC



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Dorn Hetzel"
wrote:
>
> I'm considering pulling the under-couch propane heater that doesn't
work
> anyway and using it's vent to route the inverter hot air out.
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:33 AM, bumpersbird
wrote:
>
> > Dorn,
> >
> > Yes a cool, dry, clean place for the new unit. Within a few feet
of
> > the batterries. Sounds perfect, speaking of sound. Did you notice
the
> > large cooling fan on the back of the inverter. I wonder how loud
that
> > baby is when she spins up? You could vent that fan out of the
cabinet
> > somehow, maybe like a side wall mounted water heater. I am sure
you
> > will have to vent it somehow. The installation instructions warn
> > about mounting in an enclosed space.
> >
> >
> > Kurt Horvath
> > 95 PT-42
> > 10AC
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Dorn Hetzel"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm absolutely planning on running the 3012 I bought while the
> > engine is
> > > running, to provide some amount of 120VAC while driving down the
> > road. I'm
> > > considering mounting it inside the coach in the cabinet behind
the
> > drivers
> > > seat, since that would be within two or three feet of the
> > batteries...
> > >
> > > Dorn Hetzel
> > > 77FC35
> > > Hogansville, GA
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Gregory OConnor
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The only time it is hot is when the engine is running. I
learned
> > > > with the refer mod that moving air with a fan has little
cooling
> > > > effect. replacing the air in the compartment with a fan has
the
> > most
> > > > advantage.
> > > >
> > > > If you look at the inverter box that BB engineeres
(BirdBrains)
> > > > installed(in my '94), it floats in the battery compartment
with
> > air
> > > > gap around the entire box. Even the material it is made of
looks
> > > > like it is a special (maybe, low heat conductive)
product???????I
> > > > wonder if the box by design cools with passing air as you
drive or
> > > > is there a better way to move the engine heated air away from
the
> > > > inverter box? I wonder if a scoop would move more air or
hinder
> > the
> > > > existing path
> > > >
> > > > The "three enemies of inverters" Xantrex quote may be three
> > enimies
> > > > of an Inverter/Charger and not necessarly of just the stand
alone
> > > > inverter??????? . I wonder why BB speced units with remote
> > > > batterychargers??? and why they moved the chargers so far
away. Is
> > > > it a heat issue with the chargers only??? .
> > > >
> > > > if Chargers-only have the heat issue (prompting the BirdBrain
> > move),
> > > > chargers are not worked while driving unless you drive with
the
> > > > genset running, so while driving heat is of no issue with
inverter
> > > > only???? It may be that you need to cut 110V input to the
> > inverter/
> > > > chargers when the detroit is running (or InverterBox temp is
too
> > > > hot) to keep the chargers from lighting up if the genset is
used.
> > > >
> > > > GregoryO'Connor
> > > > 94pt in need of new inverter chargers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> >
> > > > "bumpersbird"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gregg,
> > > > >
> > > > > Your probably right.
> > > > >
> > > > > I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar
power
> > > > techs
> > > > > etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as
it
> > does
> > > > > not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght
the DC
> > > > side
> > > > > decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about
12'
> > it
> > > > may
> > > > > not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies
of an
> > > > > invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been told that it can be done but the majority
opinion is
> > > > it's
> > > > > better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as
> > > > possible,
> > > > > even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the
way
> > > > those
> > > > > who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the
> > > > engine
> > > > > compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really
a
> > > > > problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will
vent
> > it
> > > > in
> > > > > some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans.
The
> > fans
> > > > > that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should
also
> > > > help a
> > > > > lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right
side
> > > > grill.
> > > > > The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some
> > sort
> > > > of
> > > > > air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior
> > > > somewhat
> > > > > clean.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have 6 Lifline Batteries, they are only 24 month old and
in
> > time
> > > > > switching to something else could happen, but these will
have to
> > > > die
> > > > > first, especially at $600.00 each
> > > > >
> > > > > SSSSHHHHHH_________TTTTTTTT !!!!!! There I go again, trying
to
> > > > > reinvent the wheel. To be honest this was probably one of
> > > > Bluebirds
> > > > > bigger engineering screw ups. Then again maybe not the old
> > > > inverters
> > > > > were in there for 13 years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey on the bright side the bay with the BBQ is now metal
lined,
> > > > Looks
> > > > > good and should be easier to clean.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > > > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > > > > Fayetteville TN
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Gregory OConnor"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kurt,
> > > > > > Would it be less costly and with less issues to re vamp
the
> > > > heart
> > > > > > inverter box area above the batteries to make it
waterproof
> > and
> > > > may
> > > > > > be even taller????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With L-16 I have more room under the inverter box as the
top
> > > > > > battery tray was removed.
> > > > > > http://www.pbase.com/gregoryoc/image/86932717
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you can also split the inverters up?????????
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GregoryO'Connor
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> >
> > > > "bumpersbird"
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The two inveters arrived in new sealed boxes. The RV7/GS
> > > > > > controlers
> > > > > > > arrived in as new condition, but they were in non mfg
> > > > packaging.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > cost to date:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > $1370.00 inverters.
> > > > > > > $ 305.00 controls.
> > > > > > > $ 100.00 Sheet metal and aluminum angle for lining bay.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I decided that I will move the inverters into bay 3,
right
> > > > side
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > place of the electric grill, from the hot, dirty, and
> > > > sometimes
> > > > > > wet
> > > > > > > inverter box in the engine compartment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After the renovations I will convert the old inverter
box to
> > > > hold
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > more house batteries.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have removed the grill and I have lined the area with
> > sheet
> > > > > > metal,
> > > > > > > and framed the opening with aluminum angle. I also
replaced
> > > > the
> > > > > > > small angle iron mounting peices with wider aluminun
braces
> > > > and
> > > > > > ran
> > > > > > > an angle support under the shelf to help support the
120+
> > lbs.
> > > > of
> > > > > > > weight, Overkill! When the tool box is under the shelf
it
> > does
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > move or vibrate. I will post photos shortly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is the question of how large the wires have to be
that
> > > > > > connect
> > > > > > > the invertes to the batteries. It will take appox. 115'
of
> > > > cable
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > get the job done and if you have bought heavy copper
cable
> > of
> > > > > late
> > > > > > > it's not cheep! It looks like around $10.00 a foot for
350
> > MCM
> > > > > > > welding cable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is 0.970 in diameter So I am having a bit of trouble
> > > > figuring
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > how or where to run these cables. Idealy inside the
frame
> > rail
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be my first choice, but after spending a few hours
under the
> > > > > > coach,
> > > > > > > poking around, this will be impossible without getting
the
> > > > coach
> > > > > > on a
> > > > > > > lift. Anybody know what size cable is used on the
coaches
> > that
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > factory installed inverters in the bays?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here is a responce from Xantrex about the cable size.
> > YIKES!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Kurt Horvath,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My wire size calculator says 1000 MCM, which I didn't
even
> > > > know
> > > > > > > existed until just now. Is there any way you can
shorten the
> > > > run
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > 12 feet, which would allow you to use 500 MCM?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For all correspondence regarding this issue, please make
> > sure
> > > > to
> > > > > > > leave the ID number [ref:00D3Wjr.500351Yfr:ref] in the
> > subject
> > > > > > line
> > > > > > > or body of the email.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Allegra Sloman
> > > > > > > Customer Service Operations
> > > > > > > Xantrex Technology Inc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well there goes the farm 1000 MCM cable????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are 2 large cables running along the top inside
of the
> > > > > wheel
> > > > > > > well from the engine compartment into the holding tank
bay
> > and
> > > > > > > forwards from there. This looks like the easy way to
run the
> > > > > > cables
> > > > > > > but it is exposed to a lot road damage and wear and
tear,
> > not
> > > > to
> > > > > > > mention a tire coming apart. So it's not really a good
> > choice.
> > > > > Any
> > > > > > > ideas on this option?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am checking into STACKING the inverters. I really
don't
> > know
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > about how this system works. Or what is required to
change
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > two unit system to a STACKED system. I do know that it
> > reduces
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > required cable lenght in half. Any ideas here would be
> > helpful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I also have to run the control wires and 120v wires
from the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > bay to the new invert bay. The control wires are also a
> > small
> > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > the origonal wires are 6 wire data lines and the new
control
> > > > > wires
> > > > > > > call for a 4 wire telephone line in place of the old
data
> > > > line.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > told that these can be used with a little effort. I
haven't
> > > > > gotten
> > > > > > > that far into the project yet. I hope that I don't have
to
> > re-
> > > > run
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > control lines through the whole coach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One thing that bothers me is that the inverters are now
> > > > > surrounded
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > water pipes and tanks. Water pumps on one side and a
small
> > > > water
> > > > > > tank
> > > > > > > on the other with plumbing going over the top. i guess
I'll
> > > > just
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to keep an eye out for leaks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am considering installing some small fans with snap
> > > > thermostats
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > control venting the compartment. Here again I'm asking
for
> > > > ideas.
> > > > > > You
> > > > > > > can vent out the back of the bay but it blows against
the
> > fuel
> > > > > > tank.
> > > > > > > That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or I could mount the
> > fans
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > shelf and pipe it down through the bottom of the bay.
But
> > here
> > > > > > again
> > > > > > > hot air rises and this will be trying to draw it
downwards.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > even sure if this is needed. But it sounds like a lot of
> > fun.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > > > > > 95 PT-42 WLWB
> > > > > > > Fayetteville TN
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS. After the e-mail from Xantrex I am considering
putting
> > the
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > inveters back in the engine compartment. After all the
old
> > > > > > inverters
> > > > > > > were there for 13 years?!?!?!?!?!?!? HELP!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Pete Masterson]

Kurt,

I'm puzzled -- you refer to the inverters as being in the engine compartment, but mine are in a metal box at the top of the house battery compartment, just in front of the engine compartment (curb side). (Two of the house batteries are nearby in the engine compartment, however.) The metal box has some vent holes in it (but no fan) -- and it does gather some dirt, but it's moderately insulated from the engine itself, so it's not quite as hot as if it were actually in the engine compartment proper.

Are your inverters in a different location? (I note that each WL seems to have it's own unique features, even those of the same year...)

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:48 PM, bumpersbird wrote:

Gregg,

Your probably right. 

I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power techs 

etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it does 

not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC side 

decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12' it may 

not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an 

invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt

I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is it's 

better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as possible, 

even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way those 

who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.

So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the engine 

compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a 

problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent it in 

some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The fans 

that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also help a 

lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side grill. 

The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some sort of 

air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior somewhat 

clean. <snip>

[bumpersbird]

Pete,

My Inverters and Batterries are in the same place as yours, but with
the engine compartment being just inches away from the inverter/batt.
bay and the the tranny being under/to the side of the inverter box
the radiant heat warms everything up pretty good. Plus there is an
opening of about 8" X 24" between the two compartments. Which allows
the hot air to enter the inverter bay. So I have just gotten used to
the idea that they are one in the same. Not completly accurate from a
tech. point of veiw.

I've been working towards getting the temps down in the engine
compartment since last Aug. Hot bedroon syndrome. I'm not trying to
cool the engine. Just everything that surrounds it. That's why I'm
putting in some fans to vent the engine compartment. it's been done
by several other guys and they seem to like the results.

I have also considered exhaust blankets, some love them some hate
them. It's said that the pipes can rust prematurly. I don't know
about that but they seem like a good idea to me.

I guess I'm just stuck on making my coach all that it can be.

In the installation manual it goes into a great detail on
installation enviroment.

This from the Xantrex web site.

Installation
2–2 975-0209-01-01
Choosing a Location
Inverters are sophisticated electronic devices and should be treated
accordingly.
When selecting the operating environment for the inverter, don't
think of it in the
same terms as other equipment that works with it, such as batteries,
diesel
generators, motor generators, washing machines, and so on. It is a
highly complex
microprocessor-controlled device, similar in nature to stereo
equipment,
television sets, or computers. The use of conformal-coated circuit
boards, plated
copper bus bars, powder-coated metal components, and stainless steel
fasteners
improves tolerance to hostile environments. However, in a condensing
environment (one in which humidity and/or temperature change causes
water to
form on components) all the ingredients for electrolysis are present:
water,
electricity and metals. In a condensing environment the life
expectancy of the
inverter is indeterminate and the warranty is voided.
The inverter/charger should only be installed in a location that
meets the
following requirements:
CAUTION
Install the inverter in a dry, protected location away from sources
of high temperature and
moisture. Exposure to salt water is particularly destructive and
potentially hazardous.
Ventilated Do not operate the inverter/charger in a closed-in area or
restrict
ventilation in any way. The inverter/charger requires air circulation
to maintain optimum operating temperature and provide best
performance. If the unit has inadequate ventilation, it may shut down
due to overheating.
The air vented through the openings should also have a path to
circulate away from the inverter/charger.
Dry Do not allow water or other fluids to drip or splash on the
inverter.
Do not expose to rain, snow or water.
Cool Normal air temperature should be between 32 °F and 122 °F
(0 °C and 50 °C)—the cooler the better within this range.
Clearance Allow as much space around the inverter/charger as possible.
Xantrex recommends that other objects and surfaces be at least
3 inches (76 mm) away from the ventilation openings for best
performance.
Safe Locate the inverter/charger away from battery in a separate well
ventilated compartment. Do not install the inverter/charger in any
compartment containing flammable gases or liquids like gasoline.
Close to
battery
compartment
The length and size of your DC cables will affect performance. Use
the DC cables recommended in Table 2-2 on page 2–12. The unit
should not be installed in the battery compartment due to the
possible presence of explosive hydrogen gas from the batteries.

Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla ,

You know the older I get the more I read the instructions. I should
have realized from reading the instructions that the DC cables can't
be 22' long.

But no my two BB Gurus said it could be done. Well I
guess you could re-power a bird with a turbine, and chuck in an
afterburner for those steep hills, but it would plobably be tough on
your toad:}

What I'm really looking forward to is the next off the wall upgrade.
F.L.I.R. Forward Looking Infrared.

I think I will go with the PathFindIR unit small easy to install and
at a low price point about $3700.00 installed down in Houston

FLIR Systems, Inc.
70 Castilian Drive
Goleta, CA 93117
Phone: 1-877-773-FLIR (3547)
http://www.corebyindigo.com
http://www.flir.com

Gregg Conner once posted, " If it took a leaf blower to cool the
fridge I'd use it." I agree. What ever it takes to make it work, make
it better, make more fun. I'd really like to take that small water
tank between bay two


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> Kurt,
>
> I'm puzzled -- you refer to the inverters as being in the engine
> compartment, but mine are in a metal box at the top of the house
> battery compartment, just in front of the engine compartment (curb
> side). (Two of the house batteries are nearby in the engine
> compartment, however.) The metal box has some vent holes in it
(but
> no fan) -- and it does gather some dirt, but it's moderately
> insulated from the engine itself, so it's not quite as hot as if
it
> were actually in the engine compartment proper.
>
> Are your inverters in a different location? (I note that each WL
> seems to have it's own unique features, even those of the same
year...)
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:48 PM, bumpersbird wrote:
>
> > Gregg,
> >
> > Your probably right.
> >
> > I spoke with several people today, Xantrex support, Solar power
techs
> > etc. after I posted my little progress report. It seems as it does
> > not matter how heavy the cable is after a certain lenght the DC
side
> > decreases efficance for every foot past 7' and after about 12' it
may
> > not function at all. I've learned there are three enemies of an
> > invertrer: 1- Moisture,2- Heat,3- Dirt
> >
> > I have been told that it can be done but the majority opinion is
it's
> > better to keep the inverters as close to the batteries as
possible,
> > even if they run hot and are in a dirty enviroment. By the way
those
> > who think it's doable have not elaborated on how to do it.
> >
> > So I'm going to put the new units in the inverter box in the
engine
> > compartment. It will be a tight fit. Moisture is not really a
> > problem, perhaps condensation on the rare occasion. I will vent
it in
> > some fashion, probably a couple of 130 cfm computer fans. The fans
> > that I'm installing to cool the engine compartment should also
help a
> > lot. I'm mounting 2 - 1650 CFM radiator fans on the right side
grill.
> > The inverters are just a 10" or 12" away. I might place some sort
of
> > air filter on the door in an attemp to keep the box interior
somewhat
> > clean. <snip>
>