6" SS EXHAUST STACK

[David Brady]

Kurt



I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking muffler

size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a

muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case you have

to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it would

be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L Series

60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the bumper,

but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in all this
cause

I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's work
together

to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's figure

out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake is not the

limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the exhaust should

improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher manifold

pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring life. Not

trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable improvement
in

my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this road

first.



David

'02 LXi, NC



Kurt Horvath wrote:

> But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into

> 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and

> moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust

> system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure

Ø increases.

Ø

Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE, MANIFOLD,

TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES FROM

COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING EXHAUST

Ø

Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

Ø increasing the backpressure.

Ø

Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5" FROM TURBO

TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT AS I

DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A FOOT, 6" SS

TUBE $50 A FOOT

Ø

Ø This will make the exhaust run

> hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,

> and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,

> while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna

> stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch stacks

Ø in the corner of the bus.

Ø

Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM TOGETHER

WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS

Ø

Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on

> those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> back pressure.

>

> Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to

Ø use?



NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT

>

Ø Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html



IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT

>

>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC



>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..."

wrote:

>

> But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into

> 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and

> moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust

> system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure

> increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

> increasing the backpressure. This will make the exhaust run

> hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,

> and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,

> while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna

> stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch stacks

> in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on

> those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> back pressure.

>

> Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to

> use?

>

> Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html

>

>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC

>

> Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >

> > Gregg,

> >

> > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-

> >

> > David,

> >

> > I know what you're after but the pipes I described are
basically

> > straight pipes with a very well designed sound surprising
ceramic

> > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't be as harsh as
a

> > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs $200 for a
straight

pipe

> >

> > Kurt Horvath

> > 95 PT 42

> > 10AC

> >

> > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:

> > >

> > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight pipes were mounted
on

those

> > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its all looks and

compensation.

> > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also drive a 4x4
requiring

a

> > > step latter to get into.

> > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup

> > >

> > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Rob Robinson"

> > > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I saw a millenium
Bluebird

> > parked

> > > across

> > > > from me at my home RV park that had two stacks. The
owners

were

> > only

> > > > visiting and must have been out sight seeing most
of the time

> > > because I

> > > > never did see them. I sure would have like to see
behind their

> > > engine bay.

> > > >

> > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I guess you could or go to a large 8" single ,
bit the

chrome

> > > shops

> > > > > sell them for outrageous prices---$692.00

> > > > >

http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> > > > > itemid=74151

> > > > > Kurt Horvath

> > > > > 95 PT 42

> > > > > 10AC

> > > > >

> > > > > In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > > > David Brady wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you fit two stacks
back there? I'm

> > > > > > serious. This will be an improvement in
performance. Two

> > stacks

> > > > > > will dramatically reduce backpressure,
which will result

in

> > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer temps, and will
allow more boost and

> > > > > > more power. A single 5 inch, as compared
to the stock 6"

> > > > > > will do the reverse.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > David

> > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One pipe from the turbo then splits
to two stacks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> > > > > > > 95 PT 42

> > > > > > > 10AC

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com><WanderlodgeForum%

> > > 40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > > > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%

40yahoogroups.comorum%

> > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,

> > > > > David Brady

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But doesn't the trucking
industry run dual exhausts?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > David Brady

> > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pete Masterson wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Having recently replaced
my muffler (at great

expense) -

> > -

> > > had

> > > > > I

> > > > > > > to do

> > > > > > > > > it over again, I'd have
switched over to a 5" system

> > from

> > > > > turbo to

> > > > > > > > > stack. As others have
stated, it's 5" at the turbo

> > outlet

> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > standard in the heavy
truck industry is 5".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only performance
difference I notice (between

the

> > old

> > > > > blown

> > > > > > > out

> > > > > > > > > muffler and the new one)
is that the exhaust-type

Jake

> > > brake

> > > > > > > seems to

> > > > > > > > > be slightly less effective.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson

> > > > > > > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge
WBDA 42

> > > > > > > > > aeonix1@
<"aeonix1%"40mac.com
> > 2540mac.com>>

> > > > > > > > > On the road at Hohenwald,
TN (Natchez Trace Parkway)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24
PM, Kurt Horvath wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > <snip>

> > > > > > > > > > For the last four
weeks I have queried Detroit

Diesel,

> > > > > Custom

> > > > > > > Exhaust

> > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, Several
OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s, Marine

> > Exhaust

> > > > > > > Engineers &

> > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, My BB
Guru, and anyone else that

would

> > > lend an

> > > > > > > ear, and

> > > > > > > > > > no one has expressed
any apprehension or regard

in the

> > > > > respect

> > > > > > > to a

> > > > > > > > > > 5" exhaust system. In
fact all parties expressed

their

> > > > > surprise

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > respect as to why the
system would change size at

the

> > > > > muffler.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Several owners have
modified their systems to 5"

from

> > > end to

> > > > > > > end, and

> > > > > > > > > > have seen no change
in performance. Positive or

> > > negative, In

> > > > > > > general

> > > > > > > > > > it was just a matter
of convenience in acquiring

> > parts,

> > > I

> > > > > won't

> > > > > > > get

> > > > > > > > > > into that. That has
recently been beaten to death

at

> > the

> > > > > > > expense of

> > > > > > > > > > all parties involved

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------

----

> > --

> > > > > > > ------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date.

> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus
Database: 270.8.0/1715 -

> > Release

> > > > > Date:

> > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------

--

> > > > > ------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
270.8.0/1715 -

Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson

> > > > 94 WLWB

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >

>

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

[David Brady]

For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler

is Nelson:



http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf



They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll call on

Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The

closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet straight

thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part

number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm

dia, and 1200mm length.



The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as

follows:



at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700

at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020



I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi OEM

muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the kinds of

CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen any

5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these pressures.



David Brady

'02 LXi, NC



David Brady wrote:

Kurt



I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking muffler

size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a

muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case you have

to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it would

be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L Series

60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the bumper,

but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in all this
cause

I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's work
together

to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's figure

out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake is not the

limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the exhaust should

improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher manifold

pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring life. Not

trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable improvement
in

my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this road

first.



David

'02 LXi, NC



Kurt Horvath wrote:

> But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into

> 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and

> moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust

> system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure

Ø increases.

Ø

Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE, MANIFOLD,

TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES FROM

COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING EXHAUST

Ø

Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

Ø increasing the backpressure.

Ø

Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5" FROM TURBO

TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT AS I

DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A FOOT, 6" SS

TUBE $50 A FOOT

Ø

Ø This will make the exhaust run

> hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,

> and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,

> while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna

> stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch stacks

Ø in the corner of the bus.

Ø

Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM TOGETHER

WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS

Ø

Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on

> those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> back pressure.

>

> Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to

Ø use?



NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT

>

Ø Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html



IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT

>

>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC



>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..."

wrote:

>

> But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into

> 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and

> moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust

> system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure

> increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

> increasing the backpressure. This will make the exhaust run

> hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,

> and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,

> while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna

> stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch stacks

> in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on

> those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> back pressure.

>

> Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to

> use?

>

> Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html

>

>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC

>

> Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >

> > Gregg,

> >

> > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-

> >

> > David,

> >

> > I know what you're after but the pipes I described are
basically

> > straight pipes with a very well designed sound surprising
ceramic

> > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't be as harsh as
a

> > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs $200 for a
straight

pipe

> >

> > Kurt Horvath

> > 95 PT 42

> > 10AC

> >

> > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:

> > >

> > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight pipes were mounted
on

those

> > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its all looks and

compensation.

> > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also drive a 4x4
requiring

a

> > > step latter to get into.

> > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup

> > >

> > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Rob Robinson"

> > > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I saw a millenium
Bluebird

> > parked

> > > across

> > > > from me at my home RV park that had two stacks. The
owners

were

> > only

> > > > visiting and must have been out sight seeing most
of the time

> > > because I

> > > > never did see them. I sure would have like to see
behind their

> > > engine bay.

> > > >

> > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I guess you could or go to a large 8" single ,
bit the

chrome

> > > shops

> > > > > sell them for outrageous prices---$692.00

> > > > >

http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> > > > > itemid=74151

> > > > > Kurt Horvath

> > > > > 95 PT 42

> > > > > 10AC

> > > > >

> > > > > In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,

> > > > > David Brady wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you fit two stacks
back there? I'm

> > > > > > serious. This will be an improvement in
performance. Two

> > stacks

> > > > > > will dramatically reduce backpressure,
which will result

in

> > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer temps, and will
allow more boost and

> > > > > > more power. A single 5 inch, as compared
to the stock 6"

> > > > > > will do the reverse.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > David

> > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One pipe from the turbo then splits
to two stacks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> > > > > > > 95 PT 42

> > > > > > > 10AC

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com><WanderlodgeForum%

> > > 40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > > > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%

40yahoogroups.comorum%

> > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,

> > > > > David Brady

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But doesn't the trucking
industry run dual exhausts?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > David Brady

> > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pete Masterson wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Having recently replaced
my muffler (at great

expense) -

> > -

> > > had

> > > > > I

> > > > > > > to do

> > > > > > > > > it over again, I'd have
switched over to a 5" system

> > from

> > > > > turbo to

> > > > > > > > > stack. As others have
stated, it's 5" at the turbo

> > outlet

> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > standard in the heavy
truck industry is 5".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only performance
difference I notice (between

the

> > old

> > > > > blown

> > > > > > > out

> > > > > > > > > muffler and the new one)
is that the exhaust-type

Jake

> > > brake

> > > > > > > seems to

> > > > > > > > > be slightly less effective.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson

> > > > > > > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge
WBDA 42

> > > > > > > > > aeonix1@
<"aeonix1%"40mac.com
> > 2540mac.com>>

> > > > > > > > > On the road at Hohenwald,
TN (Natchez Trace Parkway)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24
PM, Kurt Horvath wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > <snip>

> > > > > > > > > > For the last four
weeks I have queried Detroit

Diesel,

> > > > > Custom

> > > > > > > Exhaust

> > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, Several
OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s, Marine

> > Exhaust

> > > > > > > Engineers &

> > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, My BB
Guru, and anyone else that

would

> > > lend an

> > > > > > > ear, and

> > > > > > > > > > no one has expressed
any apprehension or regard

in the

> > > > > respect

> > > > > > > to a

> > > > > > > > > > 5" exhaust system. In
fact all parties expressed

their

> > > > > surprise

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > respect as to why the
system would change size at

the

> > > > > muffler.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Several owners have
modified their systems to 5"

from

> > > end to

> > > > > > > end, and

> > > > > > > > > > have seen no change
in performance. Positive or

> > > negative, In

> > > > > > > general

> > > > > > > > > > it was just a matter
of convenience in acquiring

> > parts,

> > > I

> > > > > won't

> > > > > > > get

> > > > > > > > > > into that. That has
recently been beaten to death

at

> > the

> > > > > > > expense of

> > > > > > > > > > all parties involved

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------

----

> > --

> > > > > > > ------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date.

> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus
Database: 270.8.0/1715 -

> > Release

> > > > > Date:

> > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------

--

> > > > > ------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
270.8.0/1715 -

Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson

> > > > 94 WLWB

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >

>

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

[Kurt Horvath]

DAVID,

WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have a new
86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing apples and
oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my research has
been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help much in
regardes to the other model coaches

Kurt
95 PT 42
10AC

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler
> is Nelson:
>
> http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf
>
> They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll call on
> Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The
> closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet straight
> thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part
> number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm
> dia, and 1200mm length.
>
> The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as
> follows:
>
> at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700
> at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020
>
> I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi OEM
> muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the kinds of
> CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen any
> 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these
pressures.
>
> David Brady
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> David Brady wrote:
> >
> > Kurt
> >
> > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking muffler
> > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a
> > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case you
have
> > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it would
> > be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L
Series
> > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the bumper,
> > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in all
this cause
> > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's
work
> > together
> > to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's figure
> > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake is not
the
> > limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the exhaust
should
> > improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher manifold
> > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring life.
Not
> > trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable
improvement in
> > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this road
> > first.
> >
> > David
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into
> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and
> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust
> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure
> >> Ø increases.
> >> Ø
> >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE, MANIFOLD,
> >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES FROM
> >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING EXHAUST
> >> Ø
> >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your
> >> Ø increasing the backpressure.
> >> Ø
> >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5" FROM
TURBO
> >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT AS I
> >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A FOOT, 6"
SS
> >> TUBE $50 A FOOT
> >> Ø
> >> Ø This will make the exhaust run
> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,
> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,
> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna
> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch
stacks
> >> Ø in the corner of the bus.
> >> Ø
> >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM
TOGETHER
> >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS
> >> Ø
> >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let
> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on
> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing
> >> > back pressure.
> >> >
> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to
> >> Ø use?
> >>
> >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT
> >> >
> >> Ø Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> >>
> >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >>
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >>
> >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >> , David Brady

> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps into
> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure and
> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust
> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back pressure
> >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your
> >> > increasing the backpressure. This will make the exhaust run
> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo velocity,
> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square inches,
> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna
> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch
stacks
> >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5 inches, let
> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on
> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing
> >> > back pressure.
> >> >
> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to
> >> > use?
> >> >
> >> > Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >> >
> >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Gregg,
> >> > >
> >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-
> >> > >
> >> > > David,
> >> > >
> >> > > I know what you're after but the pipes I described are
basically
> >> > > straight pipes with a very well designed sound surprising
ceramic
> >> > > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't be as harsh
as a
> >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs $200 for a
straight
> >> pipe
> >> > >
> >> > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > > 95 PT 42
> >> > > 10AC
> >> > >
> >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight pipes were mounted on
> >> those
> >> > > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its all looks and
> >> compensation.
> >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also drive a 4x4
requiring
> >> a
> >> > > > step latter to get into.
> >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > > , "Rob Robinson"
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I saw a millenium
Bluebird
> >> > > parked
> >> > > > across
> >> > > > > from me at my home RV park that had two stacks. The
owners
> >> were
> >> > > only
> >> > > > > visiting and must have been out sight seeing most of the
time
> >> > > > because I
> >> > > > > never did see them. I sure would have like to see behind
their
> >> > > > engine bay.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I guess you could or go to a large 8" single , bit the
> >> chrome
> >> > > > shops
> >> > > > > > sell them for outrageous prices---$692.00
> >> > > > > >
> >> http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> >> > >
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
>>
> >> > > > > > itemid=74151
> >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > > > > > 95 PT 42
> >> > > > > > 10AC
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > >
> >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > > > > > David Brady wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you fit two stacks back
there? I'm
> >> > > > > > > serious. This will be an improvement in performance.
Two
> >> > > stacks
> >> > > > > > > will dramatically reduce backpressure, which will
result
> >> in
> >> > > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer temps, and will allow more
boost and
> >> > > > > > > more power. A single 5 inch, as compared to the
stock 6"
> >> > > > > > > will do the reverse.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > David
> >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > One pipe from the turbo then splits to two stacks.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42
> >> > > > > > > > 10AC
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > > > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> 40yahoogroups.com > >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,
> >> > > > > > David Brady
> >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > But doesn't the trucking industry run dual
exhausts?
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > David Brady
> >> > > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Having recently replaced my muffler (at great
> >> expense) -
> >> > > -
> >> > > > had
> >> > > > > > I
> >> > > > > > > > to do
> >> > > > > > > > > > it over again, I'd have switched over to a 5"
system
> >> > > from
> >> > > > > > turbo to
> >> > > > > > > > > > stack. As others have stated, it's 5" at the
turbo
> >> > > outlet
> >> > > > and
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > standard in the heavy truck industry is 5".
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > The only performance difference I notice
(between
> >> the
> >> > > old
> >> > > > > > blown
> >> > > > > > > > out
> >> > > > > > > > > > muffler and the new one) is that the exhaust-
type
> >> Jake
> >> > > > brake
> >> > > > > > > > seems to
> >> > > > > > > > > > be slightly less effective.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson
> >> > > > > > > > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >> > > > > > > > > > aeonix1@ > >> > > 2540mac.com>>
> >> > > > > > > > > > On the road at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez Trace
Parkway)
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt Horvath
wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > <snip>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > For the last four weeks I have queried
Detroit
> >> Diesel,
> >> > > > > > Custom
> >> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s,
Marine
> >> > > Exhaust
> >> > > > > > > > Engineers &
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone else that
> >> would
> >> > > > lend an
> >> > > > > > > > ear, and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > no one has expressed any apprehension or
regard
> >> in the
> >> > > > > > respect
> >> > > > > > > > to a
> >> > > > > > > > > > > 5" exhaust system. In fact all parties
expressed
> >> their
> >> > > > > > surprise
> >> > > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > > respect as to why the system would change
size at
> >> the
> >> > > > > > muffler.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Several owners have modified their systems
to 5"
> >> from
> >> > > > end to
> >> > > > > > > > end, and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > have seen no change in performance. Positive
or
> >> > > > negative, In
> >> > > > > > > > general
> >> > > > > > > > > > > it was just a matter of convenience in
acquiring
> >> > > parts,
> >> > > > I
> >> > > > > > won't
> >> > > > > > > > get
> >> > > > > > > > > > > into that. That has recently been beaten to
death
> >> at
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > > expense of
> >> > > > > > > > > > > all parties involved
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------
-----
> >> ----
> >> > > --
> >> > > > > > > > ------
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
270.8.0/1715 -
> >> > > Release
> >> > > > > > Date:
> >> > > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------
-----
> >> --
> >> > > > > > ------
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -
> >> Release
> >> > > > Date:
> >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --
> >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
> >> > > > > 94 WLWB
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> ------
> >> > >
> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >>
> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> Checked by AVG.
> >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >
>

[David Brady]

It's a little late, I'll have to check my math in the morning,

but for a gas temp of 800 deg F, and a muffler input absolute

pressure of 38psi (when I'm less tired I'll revisit this number, but

I think it's ballpark), and assuming a back pressure of 3 inches

of Hg, and a tube length of 60 inches, I get:



5" diameter: 6500 cfm

6" diameter: 10000 cfm



David

'02 LXi, NC



Kurt Horvath wrote:

DAVID,



WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have a new

86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing apples and

oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my research has

been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help much in

regardes to the other model coaches



Kurt

95 PT 42

10AC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..."

wrote:

>

> For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler

> is Nelson:

>

> http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf

>

> They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll call on

> Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The

> closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet straight

> thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part

> number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm

> dia, and 1200mm length.

>

> The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as

> follows:

>

> at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700

> at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020

>

> I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi OEM

> muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the kinds
of

> CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen any

> 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these

pressures.

>

> David Brady

> '02 LXi, NC

>

> David Brady wrote:

> >

> > Kurt

> >

> > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking
muffler

> > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a

> > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case
you

have

> > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it
would

> > be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L

Series

> > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the
bumper,

> > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in
all

this cause

> > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's


work

> > together

> > to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's
figure

> > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake is
not

the

> > limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the
exhaust

should

> > improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher
manifold

> > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring
life.

Not

> > trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable

improvement in

> > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this
road

> > first.

> >

> > David

> > '02 LXi, NC

> >

> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo
dumps into

> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure and

> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust

> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure

> >> Ø increases.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE,
MANIFOLD,

> >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES
FROM

> >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING
EXHAUST

> >> Ø

> >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

> >> Ø increasing the backpressure.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5"
FROM

TURBO

> >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT
AS I

> >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A
FOOT, 6"

SS

> >> TUBE $50 A FOOT

> >> Ø

> >> Ø This will make the exhaust run

> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less
turbo velocity,

> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20
square inches,

> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna

> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch

stacks

> >> Ø in the corner of the bus.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM


TOGETHER

> >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS

> >> Ø

> >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive
temps on

> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> >> > back pressure.

> >> >

> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to

> >> Ø use?

> >>

> >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT

> >> >

> >> Ø Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >>

> >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >>

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >>

> >> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
David Brady



> >> wrote:

> >> >

> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo
dumps into

> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure and

> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust

> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure

> >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to
5 your

> >> > increasing the backpressure. This will make the
exhaust run

> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less
turbo velocity,

> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20
square inches,

> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna

> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch

stacks

> >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5
inches, let

> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive
temps on

> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> >> > back pressure.

> >> >

> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to

> >> > use?

> >> >

> >> > Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> >

> >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > > Gregg,

> >> > >

> >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-

> >> > >

> >> > > David,

> >> > >

> >> > > I know what you're after but the pipes I
described are

basically

> >> > > straight pipes with a very well designed sound
surprising

ceramic

> >> > > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't
be as harsh

as a

> >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs
$200 for a

straight

> >> pipe

> >> > >

> >> > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > 10AC

> >> > >

> >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:

> >> > > >

> >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight
pipes were mounted on

> >> those

> >> > > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its
all looks and

> >> compensation.

> >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also
drive a 4x4

requiring

> >> a

> >> > > > step latter to get into.

> >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup

> >> > > >

> >> > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Rob Robinson"

> >> > > > > wrote:

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I
saw a millenium

Bluebird

> >> > > parked

> >> > > > across

> >> > > > > from me at my home RV park that had
two stacks. The

owners

> >> were

> >> > > only

> >> > > > > visiting and must have been out sight
seeing most of the

time

> >> > > > because I

> >> > > > > never did see them. I sure would have
like to see behind

their

> >> > > > engine bay.

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > I guess you could or go to a
large 8" single , bit the

> >> chrome

> >> > > > shops

> >> > > > > > sell them for outrageous
prices---$692.00

> >> > > > > >

> >> http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> >> > >

<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?

>>

> >> > > > > > itemid=74151

> >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > > > > 10AC

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>



> >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,

> >> > > > > > David Brady
wrote:

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you
fit two stacks back

there? I'm

> >> > > > > > > serious. This will be an
improvement in performance.

Two

> >> > > stacks

> >> > > > > > > will dramatically reduce
backpressure, which will

result

> >> in

> >> > > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer
temps, and will allow more

boost and

> >> > > > > > > more power. A single 5
inch, as compared to the

stock 6"

> >> > > > > > > will do the reverse.

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > David

> >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > One pipe from the
turbo then splits to two stacks.

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > > > > > > 10AC

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com><WanderlodgeForum%

> >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > > > > > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%

> >> 40yahoogroups.comorum%

> >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,

> >> > > > > > David Brady

> >> > > > > > > > wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > But doesn't the
trucking industry run dual

exhausts?

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > David Brady

> >> > > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson
wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Having
recently replaced my muffler (at great

> >> expense) -

> >> > > -

> >> > > > had

> >> > > > > > I

> >> > > > > > > > to do

> >> > > > > > > > > > it over
again, I'd have switched over to a 5"

system

> >> > > from

> >> > > > > > turbo to

> >> > > > > > > > > > stack. As
others have stated, it's 5" at the

turbo

> >> > > outlet

> >> > > > and

> >> > > > > > the

> >> > > > > > > > > > standard in
the heavy truck industry is 5".

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > The only
performance difference I notice

(between

> >> the

> >> > > old

> >> > > > > > blown

> >> > > > > > > > out

> >> > > > > > > > > > muffler and
the new one) is that the exhaust-

type

> >> Jake

> >> > > > brake

> >> > > > > > > > seems to

> >> > > > > > > > > > be slightly
less effective.

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Pete
Masterson

> >> > > > > > > > > > '95 Blue
Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

> >> > > > > > > > > > aeonix1@
<"aeonix1%"40mac.com
> >> > > 2540mac.com>>

> >> > > > > > > > > > On the road
at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez Trace

Parkway)

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 31,
2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt Horvath

wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
<snip>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > For the
last four weeks I have queried

Detroit

> >> Diesel,

> >> > > > > > Custom

> >> > > > > > > > Exhaust

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s,

Marine

> >> > > Exhaust

> >> > > > > > > > Engineers &

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone else that

> >> would

> >> > > > lend an

> >> > > > > > > > ear, and

> >> > > > > > > > > > > no one
has expressed any apprehension or

regard

> >> in the

> >> > > > > > respect

> >> > > > > > > > to a

> >> > > > > > > > > > > 5"
exhaust system. In fact all parties

expressed

> >> their

> >> > > > > > surprise

> >> > > > > > > > in

> >> > > > > > > > > > > respect
as to why the system would change

size at

> >> the

> >> > > > > > muffler.

> >> > > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > > Several
owners have modified their systems

to 5"

> >> from

> >> > > > end to

> >> > > > > > > > end, and

> >> > > > > > > > > > > have
seen no change in performance. Positive

or

> >> > > > negative, In

> >> > > > > > > > general

> >> > > > > > > > > > > it was
just a matter of convenience in

acquiring

> >> > > parts,

> >> > > > I

> >> > > > > > won't

> >> > > > > > > > get

> >> > > > > > > > > > > into
that. That has recently been beaten to

death

> >> at

> >> > > the

> >> > > > > > > > expense of

> >> > > > > > > > > > > all
parties involved

> >> > > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------

-----

> >> ----

> >> > > --

> >> > > > > > > > ------

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Internal
Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > > > > > > > > Checked by
AVG.

> >> > > > > > > > > > Version:
7.5.405 / Virus Database:

270.8.0/1715 -

> >> > > Release

> >> > > > > > Date:

> >> > > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------

-----

> >> --

> >> > > > > > ------

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > Internal Virus
Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 /
Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -

> >> Release

> >> > > > Date:

> >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > --

> >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson

> >> > > > > 94 WLWB

> >> > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >> ------

> >> > >

> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715
- Release

Date:

> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>

> >> ----------------------------------------------------------

-------

> >>

> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> Checked by AVG.

> >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >>

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >

>

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

[Kurt Horvath]

David,

The Max exhaust outflow from a DD S-60 470 HP motor is 2877 CFM @
875degrees F. these numbers are the same for the 500 HP version..

Then from your calculations of 5" diameter:= 6500 cfm & 6"
diameter:= 10000 5" diameter: 6500 cfm 6" diameter: 10000 cfm you can
extrapolate, the 5" pipe has more than 2.25929 times more capacity
to exhaust the gases the Series 60 is capable of producing and the 6"
has nearly 3.47584 times more capacity than the engine can produce.
If calculate in . back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:5" diameter: 5500
cfm 6" diameter: 8750 cfm. You are still under max. capacity The
flow may be further enhanced by the use of Ceramic Coatings or
Thermal Blankets. To retain flow velocity. I intend to employ both.

Mufflers should be based on flow capacity rather than size because
engines are flow sensitive, not size sensitive. This being so, why
should the same not apply to the selection of mufflers? The answer
is that it should, as the engine's output is influenced minimally by
size but dramatically by flow capability. Buying a muffler based on
pipe diameter has no performance merit. The only reason you need to
know the muffler pipe size is for fitment purposes. The engine cares
little what size the muffler pipe diameters are but it certainly does
care what the muffler flows and muffler flow is largely dictated by
the design of the innards.

I have review all the available mufflers from all mentioned sources,
Fleetgaurd, Nelson, Donaldson and several custom Mfg.'s. I decided to
go with a mfg. Outside the box, who manufacture mufflers for race &
show cars. His design is basically a straight pipe. So to continue
discussing mufflers isn't where I'm going, I don't intend to use a
muffler. I am going to use a pipe that doesn't restrict flow but will
reduce SOME of the noise. Nothing more.

Honestly I would not use anything from any of the typical sources,
due to the one size fits all mentality and the materials used in
their Mfg. . That is not Stainless and the mediocre quality accepted
as OEM quality.

Whether you go 5" or 6" in a Straight Stack it will more than handle
the load.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> And at a back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:
>
> 5" diameter: 5500 cfm
> 6" diameter: 8750 cfm
>
> I think the work you are doing is applicable to my BB. It's
> not quite apples and oranges. Do you have a source for a
> 5" stainless steel straight thru pipe? If you do, I'd like to have
> it. Looking forward to you letting us know how loud a straight
> thru pipe is!
>
> David
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> David Brady wrote:
> >
> > It's a little late, I'll have to check my math in the morning,
> > but for a gas temp of 800 deg F, and a muffler input absolute
> > pressure of 38psi (when I'm less tired I'll revisit this number,
but
> > I think it's ballpark), and assuming a back pressure of 3 inches
> > of Hg, and a tube length of 60 inches, I get:
> >
> > 5" diameter: 6500 cfm
> > 6" diameter: 10000 cfm
> >
> > David
> > '02 LXi, NC
> >
> > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >
> >> DAVID,
> >>
> >> WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have a new
> >> 86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing apples
and
> >> oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my research
has
> >> been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help much in
> >> regardes to the other model coaches
> >>
> >> Kurt
> >> 95 PT 42
> >> 10AC
> >>
> >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >> , David Brady

> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler
> >> > is Nelson:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf
> >> <http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf>
> >> >
> >> > They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll call on
> >> > Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The
> >> > closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet straight
> >> > thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part
> >> > number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm
> >> > dia, and 1200mm length.
> >> >
> >> > The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as
> >> > follows:
> >> >
> >> > at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700
> >> > at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020
> >> >
> >> > I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi OEM
> >> > muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the
kinds of
> >> > CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen any
> >> > 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these
> >> pressures.
> >> >
> >> > David Brady
> >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >> >
> >> > David Brady wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Kurt
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking
muffler
> >> > > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a
> >> > > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case
you
> >> have
> >> > > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it
would
> >> > > be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L
> >> Series
> >> > > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the
bumper,
> >> > > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in
all
> >> this cause
> >> > > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's
> >> work
> >> > > together
> >> > > to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's
figure
> >> > > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake
is not
> >> the
> >> > > limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the
exhaust
> >> should
> >> > > improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher
manifold
> >> > > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring
life.
> >> Not
> >> > > trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable
> >> improvement in
> >> > > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this
road
> >> > > first.
> >> > >
> >> > > David
> >> > > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >
> >> > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps
into
> >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure
and
> >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust
> >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure
> >> > >> Ø increases.
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE,
MANIFOLD,
> >> > >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES
FROM
> >> > >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING EXHAUST
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your
> >> > >> Ø increasing the backpressure.
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5"
FROM
> >> TURBO
> >> > >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT
AS I
> >> > >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A
FOOT, 6"
> >> SS
> >> > >> TUBE $50 A FOOT
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø This will make the exhaust run
> >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo
velocity,
> >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square
inches,
> >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna
> >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch
> >> stacks
> >> > >> Ø in the corner of the bus.
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM
> >> TOGETHER
> >> > >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS
> >> > >> Ø
> >> > >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let
> >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on
> >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is
eliminating/reducing
> >> > >> > back pressure.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to
> >> > >> Ø use?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> Ø Check this out:
http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > David
> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > David
> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > >> , David Brady
> >>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps
into
> >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low pressure
and
> >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the exhaust
> >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure
> >> > >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your
> >> > >> > increasing the backpressure. This will make the exhaust
run
> >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo
velocity,
> >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square
inches,
> >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm gonna
> >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five inch
> >> stacks
> >> > >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5
inches, let
> >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps on
> >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is
eliminating/reducing
> >> > >> > back pressure.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd like to
> >> > >> > use?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Check this out:
http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > David
> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Gregg,
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > David,
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > I know what you're after but the pipes I described are
> >> basically
> >> > >> > > straight pipes with a very well designed sound
surprising
> >> ceramic
> >> > >> > > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't be as
harsh
> >> as a
> >> > >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs $200 for a
> >> straight
> >> > >> pipe
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > >> > > 95 PT 42
> >> > >> > > 10AC
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight pipes were
mounted on
> >> > >> those
> >> > >> > > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its all looks and
> >> > >> compensation.
> >> > >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also drive a 4x4
> >> requiring
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> > > > step latter to get into.
> >> > >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > > , "Rob
Robinson"
> >> > >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I saw a millenium
> >> Bluebird
> >> > >> > > parked
> >> > >> > > > across
> >> > >> > > > > from me at my home RV park that had two stacks. The
> >> owners
> >> > >> were
> >> > >> > > only
> >> > >> > > > > visiting and must have been out sight seeing most
of the
> >> time
> >> > >> > > > because I
> >> > >> > > > > never did see them. I sure would have like to see
behind
> >> their
> >> > >> > > > engine bay.
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > I guess you could or go to a large 8" single ,
bit the
> >> > >> chrome
> >> > >> > > > shops
> >> > >> > > > > > sell them for outrageous prices---$692.00
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >>
http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> >> > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
>>
> >> > >> > >
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> >> > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> >> >>
> >> > >> > > > > > itemid=74151
> >> > >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > >> > > > > > 95 PT 42
> >> > >> > > > > > 10AC
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > >> > > > > > David Brady wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you fit two stacks back
> >> there? I'm
> >> > >> > > > > > > serious. This will be an improvement in
performance.
> >> Two
> >> > >> > > stacks
> >> > >> > > > > > > will dramatically reduce backpressure, which
will
> >> result
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> > > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer temps, and will allow more
> >> boost and
> >> > >> > > > > > > more power. A single 5 inch, as compared to the
> >> stock 6"
> >> > >> > > > > > > will do the reverse.
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > David
> >> > >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > One pipe from the turbo then splits to two
stacks.
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> >> > >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42
> >> > >> > > > > > > > 10AC
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> 40yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,
> >> > >> > > > > > David Brady
> >> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > But doesn't the trucking industry run dual
> >> exhausts?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > David Brady
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Having recently replaced my muffler (at
great
> >> > >> expense) -
> >> > >> > > -
> >> > >> > > > had
> >> > >> > > > > > I
> >> > >> > > > > > > > to do
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > it over again, I'd have switched over to
a 5"
> >> system
> >> > >> > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > turbo to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > stack. As others have stated, it's 5" at
the
> >> turbo
> >> > >> > > outlet
> >> > >> > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > standard in the heavy truck industry is
5".
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > The only performance difference I notice
> >> (between
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> > > old
> >> > >> > > > > > blown
> >> > >> > > > > > > > out
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > muffler and the new one) is that the
exhaust-
> >> type
> >> > >> Jake
> >> > >> > > > brake
> >> > >> > > > > > > > seems to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > be slightly less effective.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > aeonix1@ > >> > >> > > 2540mac.com>>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On the road at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez
Trace
> >> Parkway)
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt Horvath
> >> wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > <snip>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > For the last four weeks I have queried
> >> Detroit
> >> > >> Diesel,
> >> > >> > > > > > Custom
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s,
> >> Marine
> >> > >> > > Exhaust
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Engineers &
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone
else that
> >> > >> would
> >> > >> > > > lend an
> >> > >> > > > > > > > ear, and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > no one has expressed any apprehension or
> >> regard
> >> > >> in the
> >> > >> > > > > > respect
> >> > >> > > > > > > > to a
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 5" exhaust system. In fact all parties
> >> expressed
> >> > >> their
> >> > >> > > > > > surprise
> >> > >> > > > > > > > in
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > respect as to why the system would
change
> >> size at
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> > > > > > muffler.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Several owners have modified their
systems
> >> to 5"
> >> > >> from
> >> > >> > > > end to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > end, and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > have seen no change in performance.
Positive
> >> or
> >> > >> > > > negative, In
> >> > >> > > > > > > > general
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it was just a matter of convenience in
> >> acquiring
> >> > >> > > parts,
> >> > >> > > > I
> >> > >> > > > > > won't
> >> > >> > > > > > > > get
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > into that. That has recently been
beaten to
> >> death
> >> > >> at
> >> > >> > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > expense of
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > all parties involved
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------
-----
> >> -----
> >> > >> ----
> >> > >> > > --
> >> > >> > > > > > > > ------
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
> >> 270.8.0/1715 -
> >> > >> > > Release
> >> > >> > > > > > Date:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
-----
> >> -----
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> > > > > > ------
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
270.8.0/1715 -
> >> > >> Release
> >> > >> > > > Date:
> >> > >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > --
> >> > >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
> >> > >> > > > > 94 WLWB
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------
--
> >> > >> ------
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > >> > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -
Release
> >> Date:
> >> > >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> -------
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > >> Checked by AVG.
> >> > >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> ------
> >> > >
> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> > > Checked by AVG.
> >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >>
> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> Checked by AVG.
> >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >
>

[David Brady]

And at a back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:



5" diameter: 5500 cfm

6" diameter: 8750 cfm



I think the work you are doing is applicable to my BB. It's

not quite apples and oranges. Do you have a source for a

5" stainless steel straight thru pipe? If you do, I'd like to have

it. Looking forward to you letting us know how loud a straight

thru pipe is!



David

'02 LXi, NC



David Brady wrote:

It's a little late, I'll have to check my math in the morning,

but for a gas temp of 800 deg F, and a muffler input absolute

pressure of 38psi (when I'm less tired I'll revisit this number, but

I think it's ballpark), and assuming a back pressure of 3 inches

of Hg, and a tube length of 60 inches, I get:



5" diameter: 6500 cfm

6" diameter: 10000 cfm



David

'02 LXi, NC



Kurt Horvath wrote:

DAVID,



WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have a new

86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing apples and

oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my research has

been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help much in

regardes to the other model coaches



Kurt

95 PT 42

10AC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..."

wrote:

>

> For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler

> is Nelson:

>

> http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf

>

> They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll call on

> Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The

> closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet straight

> thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part

> number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm

> dia, and 1200mm length.

>

> The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as

> follows:

>

> at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700

> at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020

>

> I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi OEM

> muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the kinds
of

> CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen any

> 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these

pressures.

>

> David Brady

> '02 LXi, NC

>

> David Brady wrote:

> >

> > Kurt

> >

> > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking
muffler

> > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a

> > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this case
you

have

> > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again, it
would

> > be interesting to take a look at your typical late model 14L

Series

> > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the
bumper,

> > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested in
all

this cause

> > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so let's


work

> > together

> > to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower. Let's
figure

> > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the intake is
not

the

> > limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the
exhaust

should

> > improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher
manifold

> > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring
life.

Not

> > trying to get under your skin, just looking for a suitable

improvement in

> > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down this
road

> > first.

> >

> > David

> > '02 LXi, NC

> >

> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo
dumps into

> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure and

> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust

> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure

> >> Ø increases.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE,
MANIFOLD,

> >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE PIPES
FROM

> >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING
EXHAUST

> >> Ø

> >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your

> >> Ø increasing the backpressure.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS 5"
FROM

TURBO

> >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE BUILT
AS I

> >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A
FOOT, 6"

SS

> >> TUBE $50 A FOOT

> >> Ø

> >> Ø This will make the exhaust run

> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less
turbo velocity,

> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20
square inches,

> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna

> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch

stacks

> >> Ø in the corner of the bus.

> >> Ø

> >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK THEM


TOGETHER

> >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS

> >> Ø

> >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive
temps on

> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> >> > back pressure.

> >> >

> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to

> >> Ø use?

> >>

> >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT

> >> >

> >> Ø Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >>

> >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >>

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >>

> >> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
David Brady



> >> wrote:

> >> >

> >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo
dumps into

> >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure and

> >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust

> >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
pressure

> >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to
5 your

> >> > increasing the backpressure. This will make the
exhaust run

> >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less
turbo velocity,

> >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20
square inches,

> >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna

> >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch

stacks

> >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5
inches, let

> >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive
temps on

> >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is eliminating/reducing

> >> > back pressure.

> >> >

> >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to

> >> > use?

> >> >

> >> > Check this out: http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > David

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> >

> >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > > Gregg,

> >> > >

> >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-

> >> > >

> >> > > David,

> >> > >

> >> > > I know what you're after but the pipes I
described are

basically

> >> > > straight pipes with a very well designed sound
surprising

ceramic

> >> > > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't
be as harsh

as a

> >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs
$200 for a

straight

> >> pipe

> >> > >

> >> > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > 10AC

> >> > >

> >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:

> >> > > >

> >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight
pipes were mounted on

> >> those

> >> > > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its
all looks and

> >> compensation.

> >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also
drive a 4x4

requiring

> >> a

> >> > > > step latter to get into.

> >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup

> >> > > >

> >> > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Rob Robinson"

> >> > > > > wrote:

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I
saw a millenium

Bluebird

> >> > > parked

> >> > > > across

> >> > > > > from me at my home RV park that had
two stacks. The

owners

> >> were

> >> > > only

> >> > > > > visiting and must have been out sight
seeing most of the

time

> >> > > > because I

> >> > > > > never did see them. I sure would have
like to see behind

their

> >> > > > engine bay.

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > I guess you could or go to a
large 8" single , bit the

> >> chrome

> >> > > > shops

> >> > > > > > sell them for outrageous
prices---$692.00

> >> > > > > >

> >> http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> >> > >

<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?

>>

> >> > > > > > itemid=74151

> >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > > > > 10AC

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > > In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>



> >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,

> >> > > > > > David Brady
wrote:

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you
fit two stacks back

there? I'm

> >> > > > > > > serious. This will be an
improvement in performance.

Two

> >> > > stacks

> >> > > > > > > will dramatically reduce
backpressure, which will

result

> >> in

> >> > > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer
temps, and will allow more

boost and

> >> > > > > > > more power. A single 5
inch, as compared to the

stock 6"

> >> > > > > > > will do the reverse.

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > David

> >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > One pipe from the
turbo then splits to two stacks.

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > > > > > > > 10AC

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com><WanderlodgeForum%

> >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > > > > > > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%

> >> 40yahoogroups.comorum%

> >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,

> >> > > > > > David Brady

> >> > > > > > > > wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > But doesn't the
trucking industry run dual

exhausts?

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > David Brady

> >> > > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson
wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Having
recently replaced my muffler (at great

> >> expense) -

> >> > > -

> >> > > > had

> >> > > > > > I

> >> > > > > > > > to do

> >> > > > > > > > > > it over
again, I'd have switched over to a 5"

system

> >> > > from

> >> > > > > > turbo to

> >> > > > > > > > > > stack. As
others have stated, it's 5" at the

turbo

> >> > > outlet

> >> > > > and

> >> > > > > > the

> >> > > > > > > > > > standard in
the heavy truck industry is 5".

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > The only
performance difference I notice

(between

> >> the

> >> > > old

> >> > > > > > blown

> >> > > > > > > > out

> >> > > > > > > > > > muffler and
the new one) is that the exhaust-

type

> >> Jake

> >> > > > brake

> >> > > > > > > > seems to

> >> > > > > > > > > > be slightly
less effective.

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Pete
Masterson

> >> > > > > > > > > > '95 Blue
Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

> >> > > > > > > > > > aeonix1@
<"aeonix1%"40mac.com
> >> > > 2540mac.com>>

> >> > > > > > > > > > On the road
at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez Trace

Parkway)

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 31,
2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt Horvath

wrote:

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
<snip>

> >> > > > > > > > > > > For the
last four weeks I have queried

Detroit

> >> Diesel,

> >> > > > > > Custom

> >> > > > > > > > Exhaust

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s,

Marine

> >> > > Exhaust

> >> > > > > > > > Engineers &

> >> > > > > > > > > > >
Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone else that

> >> would

> >> > > > lend an

> >> > > > > > > > ear, and

> >> > > > > > > > > > > no one
has expressed any apprehension or

regard

> >> in the

> >> > > > > > respect

> >> > > > > > > > to a

> >> > > > > > > > > > > 5"
exhaust system. In fact all parties

expressed

> >> their

> >> > > > > > surprise

> >> > > > > > > > in

> >> > > > > > > > > > > respect
as to why the system would change

size at

> >> the

> >> > > > > > muffler.

> >> > > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > > Several
owners have modified their systems

to 5"

> >> from

> >> > > > end to

> >> > > > > > > > end, and

> >> > > > > > > > > > > have
seen no change in performance. Positive

or

> >> > > > negative, In

> >> > > > > > > > general

> >> > > > > > > > > > > it was
just a matter of convenience in

acquiring

> >> > > parts,

> >> > > > I

> >> > > > > > won't

> >> > > > > > > > get

> >> > > > > > > > > > > into
that. That has recently been beaten to

death

> >> at

> >> > > the

> >> > > > > > > > expense of

> >> > > > > > > > > > > all
parties involved

> >> > > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------

-----

> >> ----

> >> > > --

> >> > > > > > > > ------

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > > > Internal
Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > > > > > > > > Checked by
AVG.

> >> > > > > > > > > > Version:
7.5.405 / Virus Database:

270.8.0/1715 -

> >> > > Release

> >> > > > > > Date:

> >> > > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------

-----

> >> --

> >> > > > > > ------

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > > > Internal Virus
Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 /
Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -

> >> Release

> >> > > > Date:

> >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > > > > > > >

> >> > > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > --

> >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson

> >> > > > > 94 WLWB

> >> > > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >> ------

> >> > >

> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715
- Release

Date:

> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>

> >> ----------------------------------------------------------

-------

> >>

> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> Checked by AVG.

> >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >>

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >

>

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

[David Brady]

I agree, flow is what's important. Also you need to keep in

mind that many of these numbers are derived from mathematical

models; therefor, you must build in a margin of safety. For

this reason I won't accept a muffler that will flow 2877cfm,

but I'll accept one that publishes a flow number of 1.5 times

2877cfm. Another thing is that truck exhausts are heavier

construction than auto exhausts. I've inspected my Nelson,

part no. 28214A, and it is good quality. I wouldn't use any

automotive components. IMO, they won't hold up. Otherwise

I suppose you are right, it's pointless to further discuss muffler

selection.



David

'02 LXi, NC



Kurt Horvath wrote:

David,



The Max exhaust outflow from a DD S-60 470 HP motor is 2877 CFM @

875degrees F. these numbers are the same for the 500 HP version..



Then from your calculations of 5" diameter:= 6500 cfm & 6"

diameter:= 10000 5" diameter: 6500 cfm 6" diameter: 10000 cfm you can

extrapolate, the 5" pipe has more than 2.25929 times more capacity

to exhaust the gases the Series 60 is capable of producing and the 6"

has nearly 3.47584 times more capacity than the engine can produce.

If calculate in . back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:5" diameter: 5500

cfm 6" diameter: 8750 cfm. You are still under max. capacity The

flow may be further enhanced by the use of Ceramic Coatings or

Thermal Blankets. To retain flow velocity. I intend to employ both.



Mufflers should be based on flow capacity rather than size because

engines are flow sensitive, not size sensitive. This being so, why

should the same not apply to the selection of mufflers? The answer

is that it should, as the engine's output is influenced minimally by

size but dramatically by flow capability. Buying a muffler based on

pipe diameter has no performance merit. The only reason you need to

know the muffler pipe size is for fitment purposes. The engine cares

little what size the muffler pipe diameters are but it certainly does

care what the muffler flows and muffler flow is largely dictated by

the design of the innards.



I have review all the available mufflers from all mentioned sources,

Fleetgaurd, Nelson, Donaldson and several custom Mfg.'s. I decided to

go with a mfg. Outside the box, who manufacture mufflers for race &


show cars. His design is basically a straight pipe. So to continue

discussing mufflers isn't where I'm going, I don't intend to use a

muffler. I am going to use a pipe that doesn't restrict flow but will

reduce SOME of the noise. Nothing more.



Honestly I would not use anything from any of the typical sources,

due to the one size fits all mentality and the materials used in

their Mfg. . That is not Stainless and the mediocre quality accepted

as OEM quality.



Whether you go 5" or 6" in a Straight Stack it will more than handle

the load.



Kurt Horvath

95 PT 42

10AC



--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
David Brady "dmb993@..."

wrote:

>

> And at a back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:

>

> 5" diameter: 5500 cfm

> 6" diameter: 8750 cfm

>

> I think the work you are doing is applicable to my BB. It's

> not quite apples and oranges. Do you have a source for a

> 5" stainless steel straight thru pipe? If you do, I'd like to have

> it. Looking forward to you letting us know how loud a straight

> thru pipe is!

>

> David

> '02 LXi, NC

>

> David Brady wrote:

> >

> > It's a little late, I'll have to check my math in the morning,

> > but for a gas temp of 800 deg F, and a muffler input absolute

> > pressure of 38psi (when I'm less tired I'll revisit this
number,

but

> > I think it's ballpark), and assuming a back pressure of 3
inches

> > of Hg, and a tube length of 60 inches, I get:

> >

> > 5" diameter: 6500 cfm

> > 6" diameter: 10000 cfm

> >

> > David

> > '02 LXi, NC

> >

> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >

> >> DAVID,

> >>

> >> WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have
a new

> >> 86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing
apples

and

> >> oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my
research

has

> >> been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help
much in

> >> regardes to the other model coaches

> >>

> >> Kurt

> >> 95 PT 42

> >> 10AC

> >>

> >> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
David Brady



> >> wrote:

> >> >

> >> > For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM
muffler

> >> > is Nelson:

> >> >

> >> > http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf


> >> <http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf>

> >> >

> >> > They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf,
I'll call on

> >> > Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them.
The

> >> > closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and
outlet straight

> >> > thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length,
part

> >> > number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm

> >> > dia, and 1200mm length.

> >> >

> >> > The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M
as

> >> > follows:

> >> >

> >> > at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700

> >> > at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020

> >> >

> >> > I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock
LXi OEM

> >> > muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these
are the

kinds of

> >> > CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I
haven't seen any

> >> > 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate
at these

> >> pressures.

> >> >

> >> > David Brady

> >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> >

> >> > David Brady wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > > Kurt

> >> > >

> >> > > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard
trucking

muffler

> >> > > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson
doesn't make a

> >> > > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60,
in this case

you

> >> have

> >> > > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from
Donaldson. Again, it

would

> >> > > be interesting to take a look at your typical
late model 14L

> >> Series

> >> > > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit
below the

bumper,

> >> > > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm
interested in

all

> >> this cause

> >> > > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near
future, so let's

> >> work

> >> > > together

> >> > > to arrive at a good solution. I want more
horsepower. Let's

figure

> >> > > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that
the intake

is not

> >> the

> >> > > limiting factor, and I don't think it is,
enhancing the

exhaust

> >> should

> >> > > improve performance and engine life, less heat,
higher

manifold

> >> > > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer
piston and ring

life.

> >> Not

> >> > > trying to get under your skin, just looking for
a suitable

> >> improvement in

> >> > > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta
travel down this

road

> >> > > first.

> >> > >

> >> > > David

> >> > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > >

> >> > > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > >

> >> > >>

> >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct?
The turbo dumps

into

> >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low
density, low pressure

and

> >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses
down the exhaust

> >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more
dense, and back

pressure

> >> > >> Ø increases.

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST
BLANKETS ON THE,

MANIFOLD,

> >> > >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT
INSIDE THE PIPES

FROM

> >> > >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE
ESCAPING EXHAUST

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to
5 your

> >> > >> Ø increasing the backpressure.

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5"
FROM 6" IT IS 5"

FROM

> >> TURBO

> >> > >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6"
STACK CAN BE BUILT

AS I

> >> > >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS
TUBE $20 A

FOOT, 6"

> >> SS

> >> > >> TUBE $50 A FOOT

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø This will make the exhaust run

> >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo
pyrometer, less turbo

velocity,

> >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5
inches is 20 square

inches,

> >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50%
improvement. I'm gonna

> >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way
to stuff 2 five inch

> >> stacks

> >> > >> Ø in the corner of the bus.

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS
AND HOOK THEM

> >> TOGETHER

> >> > >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS

> >> > >> Ø

> >> > >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let

> >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows
excessive temps on

> >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key
is

eliminating/reducing

> >> > >> > back pressure.

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5"
stack that you'd like to

> >> > >> Ø use?

> >> > >>

> >> > >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM
BUILT

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> Ø Check this out:

http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>

> >> > >>

> >> > >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL
THAT

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > David

> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > >>

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > David

> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > >>

> >> > >> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
David Brady

> >>

> >> > >> wrote:

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct?
The turbo dumps

into

> >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low
density, low pressure

and

> >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses
down the exhaust

> >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more
dense, and back

pressure

> >> > >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you
go from 6 to 5 your

> >> > >> > increasing the backpressure. This will
make the exhaust

run

> >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo
pyrometer, less turbo

velocity,

> >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5
inches is 20 square

inches,

> >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50%
improvement. I'm gonna

> >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way
to stuff 2 five inch

> >> stacks

> >> > >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take
it down to 5

inches, let

> >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows
excessive temps on

> >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key
is

eliminating/reducing

> >> > >> > back pressure.

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5"
stack that you'd like to

> >> > >> > use?

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > Check this out:

http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>

> >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html


> >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > David

> >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > >> >

> >> > >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > Gregg,

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > David,

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > I know what you're after but the
pipes I described are

> >> basically

> >> > >> > > straight pipes with a very well
designed sound

surprising

> >> ceramic

> >> > >> > > coating that does not restrict
flow. But won't be as

harsh

> >> as a

> >> > >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at
$250.00 Vs $200 for a

> >> straight

> >> > >> pipe

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > >> > > 95 PT 42

> >> > >> > > 10AC

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory
OConnor" wrote:

> >> > >> > > >

> >> > >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick
straight pipes were

mounted on

> >> > >> those

> >> > >> > > > rigs for performance or
efficiency. its all looks and

> >> > >> compensation.

> >> > >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8
inch stacks also drive a 4x4

> >> requiring

> >> > >> a

> >> > >> > > > step latter to get into.

> >> > >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup

> >> > >> > > >

> >> > >> > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Rob

Robinson"

> >> > >> > > > >
wrote:

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up
here in BC I saw a millenium

> >> Bluebird

> >> > >> > > parked

> >> > >> > > > across

> >> > >> > > > > from me at my home RV
park that had two stacks. The

> >> owners

> >> > >> were

> >> > >> > > only

> >> > >> > > > > visiting and must have
been out sight seeing most

of the

> >> time

> >> > >> > > > because I

> >> > >> > > > > never did see them. I
sure would have like to see

behind

> >> their

> >> > >> > > > engine bay.

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath


> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > I guess you could
or go to a large 8" single ,

bit the

> >> > >> chrome

> >> > >> > > > shops

> >> > >> > > > > > sell them for
outrageous prices---$692.00

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >>

http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> >> > >>

<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?

>>

> >> > >> > >

> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> >> > >>

<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?


> >> <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?>

> >> >>

> >> > >> > > > > > itemid=74151

> >> > >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath

> >> > >> > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > >> > > > > > 10AC

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >>
> >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,

> >> > >> > > > > > David Brady
wrote:

> >> > >> > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > Now we're
talking. Can you fit two stacks back

> >> there? I'm

> >> > >> > > > > > > serious. This
will be an improvement in

performance.

> >> Two

> >> > >> > > stacks

> >> > >> > > > > > > will
dramatically reduce backpressure, which

will

> >> result

> >> > >> in

> >> > >> > > > > > > lower turbo
pyrometer temps, and will allow more

> >> boost and

> >> > >> > > > > > > more power. A
single 5 inch, as compared to the

> >> stock 6"

> >> > >> > > > > > > will do the
reverse.

> >> > >> > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > David

> >> > >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC

> >> > >> > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath
wrote:

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > One pipe
from the turbo then splits to two

stacks.

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > Kurt
Horvath

> >> > >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42

> >> > >> > > > > > > > 10AC

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"


> >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> <"Wanderlodge"Forum%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> > > <"Wanderlodge"Forum%

40yahoogroups.com>Forum%

> >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>

> >> > >> > > > > > > >
<"Wanderlodge"Forum%

> >> > >> 40yahoogroups.comorum%

> >> > >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,

> >> > >> > > > > > David Brady


> >> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > But
doesn't the trucking industry run dual

> >> exhausts?

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
David Brady

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > '02
LXi, NC

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
Pete Masterson wrote:

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> Having recently replaced my muffler (at

great

> >> > >> expense) -

> >> > >> > > -

> >> > >> > > > had

> >> > >> > > > > > I

> >> > >> > > > > > > > to do

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> it over again, I'd have switched over to

a 5"

> >> system

> >> > >> > > from

> >> > >> > > > > > turbo to

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> stack. As others have stated, it's 5" at

the

> >> turbo

> >> > >> > > outlet

> >> > >> > > > and

> >> > >> > > > > > the

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> standard in the heavy truck industry is

5".

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> The only performance difference I notice

> >> (between

> >> > >> the

> >> > >> > > old

> >> > >> > > > > > blown

> >> > >> > > > > > > > out

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> muffler and the new one) is that the

exhaust-

> >> type

> >> > >> Jake

> >> > >> > > > brake

> >> > >> > > > > > > > seems to

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> be slightly less effective.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> Pete Masterson

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> aeonix1@ <"aeonix1%"40mac.com


> >> > >> > > 2540mac.com>>

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> On the road at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez

Trace

> >> Parkway)

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt Horvath

> >> wrote:

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > <snip>

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > For the last four weeks I have queried

> >> Detroit

> >> > >> Diesel,

> >> > >> > > > > > Custom

> >> > >> > > > > > > > Exhaust

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s,

> >> Marine

> >> > >> > > Exhaust

> >> > >> > > > > > > >
Engineers &

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone

else that

> >> > >> would

> >> > >> > > > lend an

> >> > >> > > > > > > > ear, and

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > no one has expressed any apprehension or

> >> regard

> >> > >> in the

> >> > >> > > > > > respect

> >> > >> > > > > > > > to a

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > 5" exhaust system. In fact all parties

> >> expressed

> >> > >> their

> >> > >> > > > > > surprise

> >> > >> > > > > > > > in

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > respect as to why the system would

change

> >> size at

> >> > >> the

> >> > >> > > > > > muffler.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > Several owners have modified their

systems

> >> to 5"

> >> > >> from

> >> > >> > > > end to

> >> > >> > > > > > > > end, and

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > have seen no change in performance.

Positive

> >> or

> >> > >> > > > negative, In

> >> > >> > > > > > > > general

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > it was just a matter of convenience in

> >> acquiring

> >> > >> > > parts,

> >> > >> > > > I

> >> > >> > > > > > won't

> >> > >> > > > > > > > get

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > into that. That has recently been

beaten to

> >> death

> >> > >> at

> >> > >> > > the

> >> > >> > > > > > > > expense
of

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > all parties involved

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> ------------------------------------------

-----

> >> -----

> >> > >> ----

> >> > >> > > --

> >> > >> > > > > > > > ------

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> Checked by AVG.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:

> >> 270.8.0/1715 -

> >> > >> > > Release

> >> > >> > > > > > Date:

> >> > >> > > > > > > >
10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > >
----------------------------------------------

-----

> >> -----

> >> > >> --

> >> > >> > > > > > ------

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > > > Internal
Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > Checked
by AVG.

> >> > >> > > > > > > > Version:
7.5.405 / Virus Database:

270.8.0/1715 -

> >> > >> Release

> >> > >> > > > Date:

> >> > >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >> > > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > >

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > > > --

> >> > >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin
Robinson

> >> > >> > > > > 94 WLWB

> >> > >> > > > >

> >> > >> > > >

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------

--

> >> > >> ------

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> > > Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date.

> >> > >> > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus
Database: 270.8.0/1715 -

Release

> >> Date:

> >> > >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >> > >

> >> > >> >

> >> > >>

> >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------

> >> -------

> >> > >>

> >> > >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > >> Checked by AVG.

> >> > >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
270.8.0/1715 - Release

Date:

> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >>

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >> ------

> >> > >

> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> > > Checked by AVG.

> >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715
- Release

Date:

> >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>

> >> ----------------------------------------------------------

-------

> >>

> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> >> Checked by AVG.

> >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >>

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:

10/9/2008 12:00 AM

> >

>

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 12:00 AM

[Kurt Horvath]

David,

My 86610M Muffler is OK as far as quality, but it's still rather
light weight in construction, and is not a flow through design.
Enough said on mufflers. Seeing how neither one of us is going to use
one

One of the perimeters I used in acquiring the materials for this
project is to use the heaviest materials I could find and keep the
project within a reasonable costs.

It seems as though 16ga. .065 Is the standard thickness available in
exhaust parts. I have acquired 5" Stainless Steel in 14ga. .085 this
should help with the metal fatigue problems of the thinner material
and create a stronger, tougher pipe system.

It has been brought to my attention the 304 SS may not be the best SS
to use in a vehicle application. The 400 series of SS may be a better
choice, but at this point I just need to get the coach up and running
again.

I have neglected some of my other obligations and I have exhausted my
time to research the exhaust much further.

Some of the manufactures I asked to quote this job have responded ,
most have not, and I am resolved to building it myself. Mostly due to
the fact that I can buy the materials and have it welded by a Nuclear
Certified welder, make any changes or adaptations quickly at half the
cost and in a timely manner.

I have most of the materials on hand or they're in transit at this
time and with any luck I'll have everything restored in the engine
bay in time for my families annual X-Mass trip.

There is a design that I found that is interesting for the stack
design Look at new photos on home page.

I'll speak with my guy tomorrow about the dual 5" stack, After a
little thought it doesn't seem to be a bad idea. The exhaust tunnel
in my coach is 13.50" X 13.00" and it would fit with a slight clamp
down mod.

Besides it would look really cool with dual 5' curved mitered stacks
coming out the roof.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC




--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, David Brady
wrote:
>
> I agree, flow is what's important. Also you need to keep in
> mind that many of these numbers are derived from mathematical
> models; therefor, you must build in a margin of safety. For
> this reason I won't accept a muffler that will flow 2877cfm,
> but I'll accept one that publishes a flow number of 1.5 times
> 2877cfm. Another thing is that truck exhausts are heavier
> construction than auto exhausts. I've inspected my Nelson,
> part no. 28214A, and it is good quality. I wouldn't use any
> automotive components. IMO, they won't hold up. Otherwise
> I suppose you are right, it's pointless to further discuss muffler
> selection.
>
> David
> '02 LXi, NC
>
> Kurt Horvath wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > The Max exhaust outflow from a DD S-60 470 HP motor is 2877 CFM @
> > 875degrees F. these numbers are the same for the 500 HP version..
> >
> > Then from your calculations of 5" diameter:= 6500 cfm & 6"
> > diameter:= 10000 5" diameter: 6500 cfm 6" diameter: 10000 cfm you
can
> > extrapolate, the 5" pipe has more than 2.25929 times more capacity
> > to exhaust the gases the Series 60 is capable of producing and
the 6"
> > has nearly 3.47584 times more capacity than the engine can
produce.
> > If calculate in . back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:5" diameter:
5500
> > cfm 6" diameter: 8750 cfm. You are still under max. capacity The
> > flow may be further enhanced by the use of Ceramic Coatings or
> > Thermal Blankets. To retain flow velocity. I intend to employ
both.
> >
> > Mufflers should be based on flow capacity rather than size because
> > engines are flow sensitive, not size sensitive. This being so, why
> > should the same not apply to the selection of mufflers? The answer
> > is that it should, as the engine's output is influenced minimally
by
> > size but dramatically by flow capability. Buying a muffler based
on
> > pipe diameter has no performance merit. The only reason you need
to
> > know the muffler pipe size is for fitment purposes. The engine
cares
> > little what size the muffler pipe diameters are but it certainly
does
> > care what the muffler flows and muffler flow is largely dictated
by
> > the design of the innards.
> >
> > I have review all the available mufflers from all mentioned
sources,
> > Fleetgaurd, Nelson, Donaldson and several custom Mfg.'s. I
decided to
> > go with a mfg. Outside the box, who manufacture mufflers for race
&
> > show cars. His design is basically a straight pipe. So to continue
> > discussing mufflers isn't where I'm going, I don't intend to use a
> > muffler. I am going to use a pipe that doesn't restrict flow but
will
> > reduce SOME of the noise. Nothing more.
> >
> > Honestly I would not use anything from any of the typical sources,
> > due to the one size fits all mentality and the materials used in
> > their Mfg. . That is not Stainless and the mediocre quality
accepted
> > as OEM quality.
> >
> > Whether you go 5" or 6" in a Straight Stack it will more than
handle
> > the load.
> >
> > Kurt Horvath
> > 95 PT 42
> > 10AC
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > , David Brady
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > And at a back pressure of 2 inches of Hg:
> > >
> > > 5" diameter: 5500 cfm
> > > 6" diameter: 8750 cfm
> > >
> > > I think the work you are doing is applicable to my BB. It's
> > > not quite apples and oranges. Do you have a source for a
> > > 5" stainless steel straight thru pipe? If you do, I'd like to
have
> > > it. Looking forward to you letting us know how loud a straight
> > > thru pipe is!
> > >
> > > David
> > > '02 LXi, NC
> > >
> > > David Brady wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It's a little late, I'll have to check my math in the morning,
> > > > but for a gas temp of 800 deg F, and a muffler input absolute
> > > > pressure of 38psi (when I'm less tired I'll revisit this
number,
> > but
> > > > I think it's ballpark), and assuming a back pressure of 3
inches
> > > > of Hg, and a tube length of 60 inches, I get:
> > > >
> > > > 5" diameter: 6500 cfm
> > > > 6" diameter: 10000 cfm
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >
> > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> DAVID,
> > > >>
> > > >> WHAT IS THE FLOW RATE FOR 5" and 6" staight pipes, I have a
new
> > > >> 86610M I would like to sell it. Evidently were comparing
apples
> > and
> > > >> oranges, If your coach uses a diffrent muffler. All my
research
> > has
> > > >> been for the 95-96 PT 42's and it's systems. I can't help
much in
> > > >> regardes to the other model coaches
> > > >>
> > > >> Kurt
> > > >> 95 PT 42
> > > >> 10AC
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > >> , David Brady
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > For comparison sake, the manufacturer of the OEM muffler
> > > >> > is Nelson:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf
> > <http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf>
> > > >> <http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf
> > <http://www.nelsonexhaust.com.au/pdfs/fleetguard.pdf>>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > They don't list the LXi muffler in the above pdf, I'll
call on
> > > >> > Monday to see if I can get some CFM specs from them. The
> > > >> > closest item in the above pdf is a 6" inlet and outlet
straight
> > > >> > thru muffler measuring 282mm dia and 1130mm length, part
> > > >> > number 86610M. The OEM LXi muffler measures 300mm
> > > >> > dia, and 1200mm length.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The above pdf lists CFM specs for part number 86610M as
> > > >> > follows:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > at 3 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3700
> > > >> > at 2 mm of Hg pressure: cfm = 3020
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I expect the numbers to be even higher for the stock LXi
OEM
> > > >> > muffler. I'll call to get actual numbers, but these are the
> > kinds of
> > > >> > CFM's that we should be looking for. So far I haven't seen
any
> > > >> > 5" mufflers coming close to that kind of flow rate at these
> > > >> pressures.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > David Brady
> > > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> >
> > > >> > David Brady wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Kurt
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I'm more convinced now that 5" is the standard trucking
> > muffler
> > > >> > > size cause they run dual stacks. Donaldson doesn't make a
> > > >> > > muffler that's suitable for the 14L Series 60, in this
case
> > you
> > > >> have
> > > >> > > to use dual 5 inchers if you buy from Donaldson. Again,
it
> > would
> > > >> > > be interesting to take a look at your typical late model
14L
> > > >> Series
> > > >> > > 60 equipped Prevost. I know their mufflers exit below the
> > bumper,
> > > >> > > but it would be interesting nonetheless. I'm interested
in
> > all
> > > >> this cause
> > > >> > > I'll be needing a muffler change in the near future, so
let's
> > > >> work
> > > >> > > together
> > > >> > > to arrive at a good solution. I want more horsepower.
Let's
> > figure
> > > >> > > out how to improve the breathing. Assuming that the
intake
> > is not
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > limiting factor, and I don't think it is, enhancing the
> > exhaust
> > > >> should
> > > >> > > improve performance and engine life, less heat, higher
> > manifold
> > > >> > > pressures, better fuel mileage and longer piston and ring
> > life.
> > > >> Not
> > > >> > > trying to get under your skin, just looking for a
suitable
> > > >> improvement in
> > > >> > > my engine. Your the lucky guy who's gotta travel down
this
> > road
> > > >> > > first.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > David
> > > >> > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps
> > into
> > > >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure
> > and
> > > >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust
> > > >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
> > pressure
> > > >> > >> Ø increases.
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø CORRECT, THAT IS WHY YOU USE EXHAUST BLANKETS ON THE,
> > MANIFOLD,
> > > >> > >> TURBO, PIPES, AND STACK TO KEEP THE HEAT INSIDE THE
PIPES
> > FROM
> > > >> > >> COOLING THUS MAINTAINIG THE VELOCITY OF THE ESCAPING
EXHAUST
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5 your
> > > >> > >> Ø increasing the backpressure.
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø THE EXHAUST DOES NOT REDUCE DOWN TO 5" FROM 6" IT IS
5"
> > FROM
> > > >> TURBO
> > > >> > >> TO THE END OF THE STACK DICHARGE. A 6" STACK CAN BE
BUILT
> > AS I
> > > >> > >> DECRIBED BEFOR BUT COSTS ARE DOUBLED. 5' SS TUBE $20 A
> > FOOT, 6"
> > > >> SS
> > > >> > >> TUBE $50 A FOOT
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø This will make the exhaust run
> > > >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo
> > velocity,
> > > >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square
> > inches,
> > > >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna
> > > >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch
> > > >> stacks
> > > >> > >> Ø in the corner of the bus.
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø I'M SURE THIS GUY COULD BUILD 2-5" STACKS AND HOOK
THEM
> > > >> TOGETHER
> > > >> > >> WITH A COLLECTOR AT THE START LIKE HEADERS
> > > >> > >> Ø
> > > >> > >> Ø If you take it down to 5 inches, let
> > > >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps
on
> > > >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is
> > eliminating/reducing
> > > >> > >> > back pressure.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to
> > > >> > >> Ø use?
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> NO THEY DO NOT LIST THE STACK IT IS CUSTOM BUILT
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> Ø Check this out:
> > http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> > > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>
> > > >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> > > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ASSIMULATE ALL THAT
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > David
> > > >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > David
> > > >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > >>
> > > >> > >> , David Brady
> > > >>
> > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > But Kurt, it's only 5 inches, correct? The turbo dumps
> > into
> > > >> > >> > 5 inches but the gases are hot, low density, low
pressure
> > and
> > > >> > >> > moving fast. As the exhaust progresses down the
exhaust
> > > >> > >> > system the air cools, becomes more dense, and back
> > pressure
> > > >> > >> > increases. If way down the exhaust you go from 6 to 5
your
> > > >> > >> > increasing the backpressure. This will make the
exhaust
> > run
> > > >> > >> > hotter at the turbo, high turbo pyrometer, less turbo
> > velocity,
> > > >> > >> > and a reduction in performance. 5 inches is 20 square
> > inches,
> > > >> > >> > while 6 provides 30, a whopping 50% improvement. I'm
gonna
> > > >> > >> > stick with the 6 or figure out a way to stuff 2 five
inch
> > > >> stacks
> > > >> > >> > in the corner of the bus. If you take it down to 5
> > inches, let
> > > >> > >> > us know if your turbo pyrometer shows excessive temps
on
> > > >> > >> > those long 6% grades. I think the key is
> > eliminating/reducing
> > > >> > >> > back pressure.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Do you have a web page for the 5" stack that you'd
like to
> > > >> > >> > use?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Check this out:
> > http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> > > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>
> > > >> > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>
> > > >> <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html
> > <http://dieselinjection.net/BRUCE/articles.html>>>
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > David
> > > >> > >> > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Gregg,
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Yea, ALL SHOW AND NO GO!-
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > David,
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > I know what you're after but the pipes I described
are
> > > >> basically
> > > >> > >> > > straight pipes with a very well designed sound
> > surprising
> > > >> ceramic
> > > >> > >> > > coating that does not restrict flow. But won't be as
> > harsh
> > > >> as a
> > > >> > >> > > straight pipe. Cost is nominal at $250.00 Vs $200
for a
> > > >> straight
> > > >> > >> pipe
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Kurt Horvath
> > > >> > >> > > 95 PT 42
> > > >> > >> > > 10AC
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > @yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > Kurt, I dont think big thick straight pipes were
> > mounted on
> > > >> > >> those
> > > >> > >> > > > rigs for performance or efficiency. its all looks
and
> > > >> > >> compensation.
> > > >> > >> > > > Bet every trucker with 8 inch stacks also drive a
4x4
> > > >> requiring
> > > >> > >> a
> > > >> > >> > > > step latter to get into.
> > > >> > >> > > > Greg 94pt,toyota pickup
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > > , "Rob
> > Robinson"
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > Kurt two years ago up here in BC I saw a
millenium
> > > >> Bluebird
> > > >> > >> > > parked
> > > >> > >> > > > across
> > > >> > >> > > > > from me at my home RV park that had two stacks.
The
> > > >> owners
> > > >> > >> were
> > > >> > >> > > only
> > > >> > >> > > > > visiting and must have been out sight seeing
most
> > of the
> > > >> time
> > > >> > >> > > > because I
> > > >> > >> > > > > never did see them. I sure would have like to
see
> > behind
> > > >> their
> > > >> > >> > > > engine bay.
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > 2008/11/1 Kurt Horvath
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > I guess you could or go to a large 8" single ,
> > bit the
> > > >> > >> chrome
> > > >> > >> > > > shops
> > > >> > >> > > > > > sell them for outrageous prices---$692.00
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >>
> > http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> > > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>>
> > > >> > >>
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> > > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> > >>
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> > > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>>
> > > >> > >>
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>
> > > >>
<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?
> > <http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webc...splay.php?>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> > >> > > > > > itemid=74151
> > > >> > >> > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > >> > >> > > > > > 95 PT 42
> > > >> > >> > > > > > 10AC
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > >> > >> > > > > > David Brady wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > Now we're talking. Can you fit two stacks
back
> > > >> there? I'm
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > serious. This will be an improvement in
> > performance.
> > > >> Two
> > > >> > >> > > stacks
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > will dramatically reduce backpressure, which
> > will
> > > >> result
> > > >> > >> in
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > lower turbo pyrometer temps, and will allow
more
> > > >> boost and
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > more power. A single 5 inch, as compared to
the
> > > >> stock 6"
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > will do the reverse.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > David
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > One pipe from the turbo then splits to two
> > stacks.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > 95 PT 42
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > 10AC
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> > >> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> 40yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >> > > > 2540yahoogroups.com>>,
> > > >> > >> > > > > > David Brady
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > But doesn't the trucking industry run
dual
> > > >> exhausts?
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > David Brady
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Having recently replaced my muffler
(at
> > great
> > > >> > >> expense) -
> > > >> > >> > > -
> > > >> > >> > > > had
> > > >> > >> > > > > > I
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > to do
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > it over again, I'd have switched over
to
> > a 5"
> > > >> system
> > > >> > >> > > from
> > > >> > >> > > > > > turbo to
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > stack. As others have stated, it's 5"
at
> > the
> > > >> turbo
> > > >> > >> > > outlet
> > > >> > >> > > > and
> > > >> > >> > > > > > the
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > standard in the heavy truck industry
is
> > 5".
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > The only performance difference I
notice
> > > >> (between
> > > >> > >> the
> > > >> > >> > > old
> > > >> > >> > > > > > blown
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > out
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > muffler and the new one) is that the
> > exhaust-
> > > >> type
> > > >> > >> Jake
> > > >> > >> > > > brake
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > seems to
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > be slightly less effective.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Pete Masterson
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > aeonix1@ > > > > > >> > >> > > 2540mac.com>>
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On the road at Hohenwald, TN (Natchez
> > Trace
> > > >> Parkway)
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 11:24 PM, Kurt
Horvath
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > <snip>
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > For the last four weeks I have
queried
> > > >> Detroit
> > > >> > >> Diesel,
> > > >> > >> > > > > > Custom
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust
Mfg.'s,
> > > >> Marine
> > > >> > >> > > Exhaust
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Engineers &
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone
> > else that
> > > >> > >> would
> > > >> > >> > > > lend an
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > ear, and
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > no one has expressed any
apprehension or
> > > >> regard
> > > >> > >> in the
> > > >> > >> > > > > > respect
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > to a
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 5" exhaust system. In fact all
parties
> > > >> expressed
> > > >> > >> their
> > > >> > >> > > > > > surprise
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > in
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > respect as to why the system would
> > change
> > > >> size at
> > > >> > >> the
> > > >> > >> > > > > > muffler.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Several owners have modified their
> > systems
> > > >> to 5"
> > > >> > >> from
> > > >> > >> > > > end to
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > end, and
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > have seen no change in performance.
> > Positive
> > > >> or
> > > >> > >> > > > negative, In
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > general
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it was just a matter of convenience
in
> > > >> acquiring
> > > >> > >> > > parts,
> > > >> > >> > > > I
> > > >> > >> > > > > > won't
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > get
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > into that. That has recently been
> > beaten to
> > > >> death
> > > >> > >> at
> > > >> > >> > > the
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > expense of
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > all parties involved
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------
----
> > -----
> > > >> -----
> > > >> > >> ----
> > > >> > >> > > --
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > ------
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-
date.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
> > > >> 270.8.0/1715 -
> > > >> > >> > > Release
> > > >> > >> > > > > > Date:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------
----
> > -----
> > > >> -----
> > > >> > >> --
> > > >> > >> > > > > > ------
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database:
> > 270.8.0/1715 -
> > > >> > >> Release
> > > >> > >> > > > Date:
> > > >> > >> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > --
> > > >> > >> > > > > Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
> > > >> > >> > > > > 94 WLWB
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------
----
> > --
> > > >> > >> ------
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > >> > >> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > >> > >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -
> > Release
> > > >> Date:
> > > >> > >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------
--
> > > >> -------
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > >> > >> Checked by AVG.
> > > >> > >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -
Release
> > Date:
> > > >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------
-
> > > >> ------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > >> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > >> > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
> > Date:
> > > >> 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > -------
> > > >>
> > > >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > >> Checked by AVG.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > > >
> > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >
>

[hippieforever3]

Just thought I'd share a little humor. My spam filter kept putting all
the emails with 6"SS EXHAUST STACK in junk mail but only those. I think
I finally figured it out that the spam filter thinks that is a
euphemism for something else.

GPSGary
1984FC35
Currently in Morro Bay, going to the beach AFTER fixing my coolant leak

[rogerwwebb@...]

wow .. I haven't really been paying that much attention to this topic (as I'm happy with what I've got and ain't about to mess with it if I don't have to) ... but ONLY on this forum could hot gasses be so exhaustively (pun intended) aired ... truly a wonderful resource. It is great fun, even if I don't need, nor understand it all ....

Roger Webb

91 WL

Cedar Rapids, IA (77 degrees ... another wondrous item)

In a message dated 11/3/2008 2:13:44 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhhayden@... writes:

Kurt & David and others who might be following this discussion as I have.

When you introduced the Bernoulli's Equation into this discussion I figured it was time to ask my brother for help. He has some background with advanced math and has been helpful to another of our group in the past. I forwarded to him the messages at the bottom to give him some background and data that had already been offered. I notice now that this subject has died down somewhat so far today but here is his message to me anyway. I am not going to pretend that I understand all of it but it seems that going from 6" to 5" isn't going to be the end of the world. I know you two have Series 60 engines and I have the older 8v92 but the problem is the same and I have discovered a holds in the elbow that goes into the muffler. That elbow is probably unobtainable or if it is would be quite expensive. So, I was considering 5" as many others have.

Any, here is my brother Steve Hayden's response to me - unedited:

Brother,

You have stretched the limits of my memory on this one! The last time I thought about fluid flow and the Bernoulli Principal was probably 40 or so years ago. Not to worry; it is fun to fire up the old neurons. I'll try to answer your question below. The response isn't technically rigorous as some of your forum buddies may point out. It does seem to make sense though.

As I understand the question, it goes something like this. Does changing the diameter of the exhaust system on the bus from six inches to five inches result in any noticeable decrease in performance? I understand that the exhaust system runs from the manifolds to a turbocharger and then out through a muffler to the atmosphere. If one constricts the exhaust from the outlet of the turbocharger which results in a higher pressure at the output, then the turbocharger efficiency decreases. Have I got that about right?

If so, then the answer is changing from six inch diameter to five inch is very unlikely to result in any detectable decrease in performance. Here's the logic I used to reach this conclusion.

To make the calculation, one uses one of the forms of Bernoulli's Equation. I saw in one of the posts you sent me a reference to a nice discussion of Bernoulli's Equation. This discussion is correct in that it points out that Bernoulli's Equation is an energy conservation equation which means you can't get something for nothing. This equation only holds when no outside work is being done on the system nor is the system doing any work on the outside. Consequently, as was pointed out in the posting, the Bernoulli Equation applies to the ideal situation of, for example, non-compressible gas, laminar flow (non-turbulent), no friction with the pipe walls and so on.

Accounting for these non-ideal conditions from first principles is tedious and usually results in equations that cannot be solved in closed form. Engineers get around this by putting correction terms in the equation and then determining the coefficients of the correction terms by experimentation. This is a science within itself and not as easy as I just made it sound. Fortunately, engineers have been interested in fluid, including gas, flow in pipes for such applications as gas and oil pipelines and have derived equations for these applications. I did find an on-line calculator at http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/ which I used to make my analysis.

Of course, I had to make some assumptions to plug into the calculator. With your help, I came up with the flowing. The amount of exhaust gas that must be expelled out the exhaust pipe per unit time was 24,000 liters/min. You estimated this from the displacement of the engine cylinders times the number of cylinders times the rpm of the engine. We also agreed that the length of pipe from the turbocharger to the exhaust outlet at 7 feet and the temperature of the exhaust at 500 F. I assumed the exhaust pipe was smooth with a roughness of lest than one thousandth of an inch. The local resistance coefficient which accounts for bends in the exhaust pipe and other local constraints was tougher. I used the calculator default value of 1 but also did a sensitivity analysis.

Since the pressure at the exhaust pipe outlet is atmospheric (14.7 psi), I calculated the pressure drop from the turbocharger outlet to atmosphere along the length of the exhaust pipe for different pipe diameters. The result is shown graphically below.

Note that the pressure drop axis is logarithmic. So the difference in pressure drop between a 5 and 6 inch diameter pipe is only about 0.15 psi. In fact, the pressure drop is less than 1 psi for exhaust pipes 3.5 inches and larger.

I did change the local resistance coefficient to see the effect. At the default value of 1 and for a 5 inch diameter pipe, the pressure drop is 0.25 psi. An order of magnitude less at 0.1 results in a pressure drop of 0.09 psi and an order of magnitude larger at 10, 1.8 psi.

I don't know what the pressure at the turbocharger input is but seems unlikely that a pressure change of 1 psi or less at the turbocharger output would result in a detectable decrease in performance. Perhaps someone on your forum has this number.

Since many systems are over designed to have a safety margin, it also seems to make sense that changing to 5 inch diameter from 6 inch should make little difference.

Hope this helps. Feel free to cut and paste onto the forum if you like. Any questions, you know where I live.

Steve

----- Original Message -----

From: "kguns@hughes.net"

To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:24 PM

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: 6" SS EXHAUST STACK

David,

A few days ago you were all for a straight pipe.

Now we have delved into the effects and merits of the, "Bernoulli
effect" it presumes that the density of the flowing gas is constant,
which will not necessarily be true in this application.

If this were a consideration and a factor in design and function
wouldn't this be a standard application on all exhausts, considering
today's drive for better performance Vs energy expended Vs
particulate
matter expelled Vs whatever else the EPA thinks we should be
ejecting from our exhaust pipes?

One factor you may have not considered are the exhaust blankets I
mentioned. They will retain the heat within the pipes thus increasing
the velocity of the exhaust creating an accelerated flow of gasses
through the tubes.

If I may present another observation, 5" exhaust systems are the
standard on all production class 8 trucks.

Furthermore and for the heck of it I don't believe that the trucker
that has 8" stacks on his rig has considered the, "Bernoulli effect"
in his choice at the Chrome Shop. Although it mat have an effect on
performance further than just looking cool. They do look good, no
doubt.

For the last four weeks I have queried Detroit Diesel, Custom Exhaust
Fabricators, Several OEM Exhaust Mfg.'s, Marine Exhaust Engineers &
Fabricators, My BB Guru, and anyone else that would lend an ear, and
no one has expressed any apprehension or regard in the respect to a
5" exhaust system. In fact all parties expressed their surprise in
respect as to why the system would change size at the muffler.

Several owners have modified their systems to 5" from end to end, and
have seen no change in performance. Positive or negative, In general
it was just a matter of convenience in acquiring parts, I won't get
into that. That has recently been beaten to death at the expense of
all parties involved

If there is someone who would like to further this debate with
Imperical evidence of the merits of, or placing a venturi somewhere
in this exhaust system I have pasted a site below where you can
formulate your calculations. I would love to see some evidence of a
positive effect, in which case I would have no problem in adding a
venturi crimp in the exhaust system.

Bernoulli Calculation

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/pber.html#beq

The calculation of the "real world" pressure in a constriction of a
tube is difficult to do because of viscous losses, turbulence, and
the assumptions which must be made about the velocity profile (which
affect the calculated kinetic energy). The model calculation here
assumes laminar flow (no turbulence), assumes that the distance from
the larger diameter to the smaller is short enough that viscous
losses can be neglected, and assumes that the velocity profile
follows that of theoretical laminar flow. Specifically, this involves
assuming that the effective flow velocity is one half of the maximum
velocity, and that the average kinetic energy density is given by one
third of the maximum kinetic energy density.

Now if you can swallow all those assumptions, you can model* the flow
in a tube where the volume flow rate is = cm3/s and the fluid density
is ñ = gm/cm3. For an inlet tube area A1= cm2 (radius r1 =cm), the
geometry of flow leads to an effective fluid velocity of v1 =cm/s.
Since the Bernoulli equation includes the fluid potential energy as
well, the height of the inlet tube is specified as h1 = cm. If the
area of the tube is constricted to A2=cm2 (radius r1 = cm), then
without any further assumptions the effective fluid velocity in the
constriction must be v2 = cm/s. The height of the constricted tube
is specified as h2 = cm.

The kinetic energy densities at the two locations in the tube can now
be calculated, and the Bernoulli equation applied to constrain the
process to conserve energy, thus giving a value for the pressure in
the constriction. First, specify a pressure in the inlet tube:
Inlet pressure = P1 = kPa = lb/in2 = mmHg = atmos.
The energy densities can now be calculated. The energy unit for the
CGS units used is the erg.

Inlet tube energy densities
Kinetic energy density = erg/cm3
Potential energy density = erg/cm3
Pressure energy density = erg/cm3
Constricted tube energy densities
Kinetic energy density = erg/cm3
Potential energy density = erg/cm3
Pressure energy density = erg/cm3


The pressure energy density in the constricted tube can now be
finally converted into more conventional pressure units to see the
effect of the constricted flow on the fluid pressure:

Calculated pressure in constriction =
P2= kPa = lb/in2 = mmHg = atmos.

This calculation can give some perspective on the energy involved in
fluid flow, but it's accuracy is always suspect because of the
assumption of laminar flow. For typical inlet conditions, the energy
density associated with the pressure will be dominant on the input
side; after all, we live at the bottom of an atmospheric sea which
contributes a large amount of pressure energy. If a drastic enough
reduction in radius is used to yield a pressure in the constriction
which is less than atmospheric pressure, there is almost certainly
some turbulence involved in the flow into that constriction.
Nevertheless, the calculation can show why we can get a significant
amount of suction (pressure less than atmospheric) with
an "aspirator" on a high pressure faucet. These devices consist of a
metal tube of reducing radius with a side tube into the region of
constricted radius for suction.

*Note: Some default values will be entered for some of the values as
you start exploring the calculation. All of them can be changed as a
part of your calculation.

Kurt Horvath
95 PT 42
10AC

> > > >
> > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> > Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, David Brady

> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Kurt,
> > > > >
> > > > > No thanks, I already have a stock muffler. Thanks for the
links,
> > > > > there's some pretty nifty items there. Be careful with
those fancy
> > > > > braided stainless steel pieces. They look sharp, but
they've always
> > > > > leaked on my turbocharged subaru wrx. Kurt, you've been
around
> > > > > a few over-the-road coaches, Prevost' and what not, what do
they
> > > > > run on their exhaust systems; i.e., expansion pipes, flex
pipe, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > David Brady
> > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > > >
> > > > > Kurt Horvath wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David, Would you like to take that brand new muffler off
my
> > > > hands???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to DD straight pipe & ECU will not have any
issues in
> > > > the
> > > > > > 95 vintage S 60.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OEM built that pipe for BB ACAP - As Cheep As Possible -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The original routing of the pipe leaves the turbo, source
of the
> > > > > > first failure, cracked the 1st 90 degree turn a short
straight run
> > > > > > 2nd. 90 degree turn, then into a double ball connector
that also
> > > > > > telescopes in and out. You can check out that piece of S--
-, sorry
> > > > > > engineering wonder here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70-
> > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70->
> > > > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70-

> > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70->>
> > > > 89.pdf
> > > > > >
<http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70-
> > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70->
> > > > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70-

> > <http://www.dynaflexproducts.com/downloads/DP_Catalog_03_pg70->>
> > > > 89.pdf>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Page 76 Double Ball Joint with Slip Joint Feature
Allowing Lateral
> > > > > > Movement length 16 to 18 inches mine measures 14 .55
inches at
> > > > > > present. This marvel allows for 10 degrees of angularity
360
> > > > degree
> > > > > > rotation 2" of offset 2" axial movement,. Hell the u
joints can't
> > > > > > move around that much. Besides it was hard clamped to the
mount
> > > > from
> > > > > > the engine in front of this connection not to mention
rusted to
> > > > the
> > > > > > point that it took an pneumatic impact chisel to get it
apart.. So
> > > > > > what's the point. You need flex in between the turbo and
the first
> > > > > > mount.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Flex Connector with liner I choose is here at
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?
> > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?>
> > > > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?
> > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?>>
> > > > > > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?
> > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?>
> > > > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?
> > <http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?>>>
> > > > > >
> > > >
cPath=1022_1035_1064_1114&products_id=1008&osCsid=999d7ef5fdd15864bae3
> > > > > > 3db41abf5ef9
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The 2 90 degree turns were fabricated in that manner
because it's
> > > > not
> > > > > > easy to bend large diameter pipe in a single 180 degree
bend, thus
> > > > > > they weld 2 90's together, which is the industry standard
for
> > > > > > manufacturing a 180 degree turn in large pipe exhausts.
Well this
> > > > > > ain't the factory and we're not constrained by what is
easy. I
> > > > have
> > > > > > acquired a 14ga 180 degree U-Tube that has the same
external
> > > > > > dimensions as the original pipe. I'm not an engineer but I
> > > > reasonably
> > > > > > certain that with the remaining 90 degree bend and a 45
degree
> > > > bend
> > > > > > there will be sufficient back pressure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There will also be a flexible pipe hanger mount behind
the Flex
> > > > > > connector mounted on the ceiling of the engine
compartment that
> > > > will
> > > > > > support the middle section of pipe and will allow for any
movement
> > > > > > and or torque that may be transferred to the pipe by the
motor.
> > > > The
> > > > > > original clamps for the muffler have to go as they are 6"
but the
> > > > > > rubber isolated mounting bars will remain and that's all
that was
> > > > > > there to begin with. So where's the rub? Bub!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not to take anything away from the engineers that
designed the
> > > > Bird,
> > > > > > But there are some glaring deficiencies. 7 way trailer
plug, Air
> > > > > > Purge System, Watts valve, Accelerator and Brake peddles,
Front
> > > > Left
> > > > > > Shock Mount, Relay for Jake Brake, W/D Vent for Slendide
2000,
> > > > > > Installation of Refrigerator with inadequate convection,
The seat
> > > > > > belts mounted to floor instead of the seat, That reminds
me I
> > > > still
> > > > > > have to fix that one. Nothing like hitting a road
transition just
> > > > to
> > > > > > have the air ride seat bounce and the seat belts
automatically
> > > > adjust
> > > > > > for the slack then the air ride seat rebounds and the
belts try to
> > > > > > cut you in half at the waist. That's just the 95 PT 42.
I'm not
> > > > > > bitchin! I'm fixin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kurt Horvath
> > > > > > 95 PT 42
> > > > > > 10AC
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> > Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, David Brady

> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kurt,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with Greg. I'm gonna keep mine stock. There's a
bunch
> > > > > > > of vibration and movement back there. I figure BB's been
> > > > building
> > > > > > > buses a whole lot longer than I have. Initially I'd
scratch my
> > > > > > > head when looking at the frame and support pieces, but
when
> > > > > > > you consider that something as big as a bus must twist
and flex,
> > > > > > > this flexibility needs to be designed in. Make one piece
> > > > stronger
> > > > > > > and you've created a stress raiser someplace else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a friend who transplanted a honda v-tech motor
into a
> > > > > > > lotus elise. Everything worked but the alternator
mount. The
> > > > mount
> > > > > > > insists on cracking. There can be some weird harmonics
and
> > > > > > > resonant frequencies going on that are difficult to
grasp and
> > > > > > > only trial and error and a 50 year track record of
building
> > > > buses
> > > > > > > can solve (unless you can model it and run high powered
> > > > > > > computer finite element analysis on it). He's still
fighting
> > > > that
> > > > > > > mount...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Okay, I'm off my soap box.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > David Brady
> > > > > > > '02 LXi, NC
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gregory OConnor wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kurt, try and figure why there were 4 bends. it may
be that
> > > > it was
> > > > > > > > engineered to alow for swing room between the 'hung
exhaust'
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > the 'torque reaction of the ruber mounted detroit'.
look at
> > > > the
> > > > > > roll
> > > > > > > > of the torque and see that there is a place for the
movement
> > > > to
> > > > > > twist
> > > > > > > > a union. I kinda think this movement was the problem
with the
> > > > > > > > resulting crack.
crack=result ;movement=cause ;facilitate
> > > > movement
> > > > > > > > =repair. may be that BB enginered it correct but
someone
> > > > > > > > overtightened a band to cure an exhaust leak???????
you also
> > > > got
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > keep the stack from cantilivering off of the maniford
with
> > > > your
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > design. Scavenging is one variable in fuel
efficiency. even
> > > > > > straight
> > > > > > > > pipes some time will result in lower fuel economy
because the
> > > > > > intake
> > > > > > > > variable get screwd. backpressure is mathed into the
computer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------
----
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 -
Release
> > > > Date:
> > > > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> > > > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release
Date:
> > 10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.405 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1715 - Release Date:
10/9/2008 12:00 AM
> >
>

---

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