Most miles before engine rebuild/replacement

[johnjzmail]

This is a contest:

Whoever can claim the greatest number of miles driven before having to
rebuild/replace their motor gets

Bragging Rights
Authority to make other Birds listen to how they did it
Envy of a maybe-buyer looking for something that lasts

Contest rules: State the miles you've driven with no remorse,
divulge what year/engine/tranny you drove to achieve this feat, and
lay down the law about how to imitate you. (Sorry: Only over 150,000
eligible)
__________________
John in Arizona
Wannabe

[Pete Masterson]

What you're really asking is: How long will the engine in a Blue Bird
last?

The only rational answer is "It depends."

The key to a long lasting engine is proper preventative maintenance
and attentive operating control. Blue Birds use the same engines as
commercial trucks and busses. But many Wanderlodges seem to require a
rebuild many miles before similar engines in commercial service. The
key difference is maintenance and operational control.

I purchased a Bird with about 118,000 miles on it. So far as I know,
the engine has not been rebuilt. I've put nearly 20,000 miles on it
in the 18 months I've had it.

I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A
trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the reason
and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills
engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give. I've
also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins (which
were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.

Obviously, regular oil changes are necessary. You can debate the
value of synthetic vs. regular oil. I note that oil temperatures can
get quite hot. The DD Series 60 manual states that the normal oil
temperature operating range is between 200 and 250!! degrees f. At
250 degrees, oil can break down fairly quickly. I've made it a
practice to start watching carefully when oil temperature gets to 220
degrees and to pull over for a cool-down when it reaches 230 degrees.
(This occurs only on steep grades.) I note that the oil temperature
will drop significantly in only 2 or 3 minutes at idle by the side of
the road -- but can take some time to cool off while going down a
grade after reaching a summit -- so I usually take advantage of
"brake check" pull-outs at many summits to cool things down. My only
observation about synthetic vs. regular oil is that synthetic oils
will degrade less quickly under high-heat, so if steep grades are an
expected regular part of your travels, that may be a consideration.
Synthetic oil, in a diesel application, do not extend the change
period significantly (as may be the case with some automobiles).
Currently I have regular oil in the engine. The previous owner used
synthetic.

While you're certainly right to be concerned about the longevity of
the engine -- Blue Bird Wanderlodges have used Cat 3208 (in various
NA and TA configurations), DD 6v92, DD 8v92, DD Series 60, and, in
the newest years, various Cummins models. Each of these engines have
various life-span parameters and have different maintenance needs.

The biggest unknown with the purchase of any Bird is what care and
attention the previous owner(s) have provided to the engine (and
other components). I was fortunate to get the maintenance records of
the immediate previous owner (two years worth) -- but I have no idea
what maintenance was done for the 9 years my coach was on the road
before the previous owner got the coach. So, there is simply a matter
of faith (hope) that earlier owners did not seriously abuse the engine.

The fact that some engines only last 60 or 80 thousand miles vs.
other engines that last 250 thousand miles is not going to tell you
that the coach you buy will have either experience. You simply don't
know (can't know) what abuse or neglected preventive maintenance may
have occurred with the engine in the coach you ultimately may buy.
And, it will provide no insight into how well _you_ may maintain the
engine...

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
aeonix1@...



On Dec 27, 2007, at 10:32 AM, johnjzmail wrote:

> This is a contest:
>
> Whoever can claim the greatest number of miles driven before having to
> rebuild/replace their motor gets
>
> Bragging Rights
> Authority to make other Birds listen to how they did it
> Envy of a maybe-buyer looking for something that lasts
>
> Contest rules: State the miles you've driven with no remorse,
> divulge what year/engine/tranny you drove to achieve this feat, and
> lay down the law about how to imitate you. (Sorry: Only over 150,000
> eligible)
> __________________
> John in Arizona
> Wannabe
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bubblerboy64]

We,ve talked a lot about engine rebuild and replacements in these
motor homes and I actually think this would not be meaningful
information for the reasons mentioned. No way to know how the
engines were cared for. If you had a detailed history of both service
history and use history then you would have something. With out it I
can not think much meaningful information is to be gained. And then
you factor in the truth and bragging factors. I believe that the
reason motor homes have a rather poor record for engine life is as
follows. 1) the way they are used: Left to sit for weeks and months
at a time and then run hard and put away wet. 2) many are rather
over weight for the engines that pull or push them. 3) Poor service
because of the fact that for the most part they are owned by people
who drive cars and don't have much understanding of what is required
for the care and feeding of big equipment. 4) Multiple owners who
buy them and loose interest and as a result just neglect them. The
life of a Motor Home is not an easy one.

John Heckman
central Pa
1973 FC






>
> What you're really asking is: How long will the engine in a Blue
Bird
> last?
>
> The only rational answer is "It depends."
>
> The key to a long lasting engine is proper preventative
maintenance
> and attentive operating control. Blue Birds use the same engines
as
> commercial trucks and busses. But many Wanderlodges seem to require
a
> rebuild many miles before similar engines in commercial service.
The
> key difference is maintenance and operational control.
>
> I purchased a Bird with about 118,000 miles on it. So far as I
know,
> the engine has not been rebuilt. I've put nearly 20,000 miles on
it
> in the 18 months I've had it.
>
> I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A
> trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the
reason
> and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills
> engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.
I've
> also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins (which
> were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.
>
> Obviously, regular oil changes are necessary. You can debate the
> value of synthetic vs. regular oil. I note that oil temperatures
can
> get quite hot. The DD Series 60 manual states that the normal oil
> temperature operating range is between 200 and 250!! degrees f. At
> 250 degrees, oil can break down fairly quickly. I've made it a
> practice to start watching carefully when oil temperature gets to
220
> degrees and to pull over for a cool-down when it reaches 230
degrees.
> (This occurs only on steep grades.) I note that the oil
temperature
> will drop significantly in only 2 or 3 minutes at idle by the side
of
> the road -- but can take some time to cool off while going down a
> grade after reaching a summit -- so I usually take advantage of
> "brake check" pull-outs at many summits to cool things down. My
only
> observation about synthetic vs. regular oil is that synthetic oils
> will degrade less quickly under high-heat, so if steep grades are
an
> expected regular part of your travels, that may be a
consideration.
> Synthetic oil, in a diesel application, do not extend the change
> period significantly (as may be the case with some automobiles).
> Currently I have regular oil in the engine. The previous owner
used
> synthetic.
>
> While you're certainly right to be concerned about the longevity
of
> the engine -- Blue Bird Wanderlodges have used Cat 3208 (in
various
> NA and TA configurations), DD 6v92, DD 8v92, DD Series 60, and, in
> the newest years, various Cummins models. Each of these engines
have
> various life-span parameters and have different maintenance needs.
>
> The biggest unknown with the purchase of any Bird is what care and
> attention the previous owner(s) have provided to the engine (and
> other components). I was fortunate to get the maintenance records
of
> the immediate previous owner (two years worth) -- but I have no
idea
> what maintenance was done for the 9 years my coach was on the road
> before the previous owner got the coach. So, there is simply a
matter
> of faith (hope) that earlier owners did not seriously abuse the
engine.
>
> The fact that some engines only last 60 or 80 thousand miles vs.
> other engines that last 250 thousand miles is not going to tell
you
> that the coach you buy will have either experience. You simply
don't
> know (can't know) what abuse or neglected preventive maintenance
may
> have occurred with the engine in the coach you ultimately may buy.
> And, it will provide no insight into how well _you_ may maintain
the
> engine...
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2007, at 10:32 AM, johnjzmail wrote:
>
> > This is a contest:
> >
> > Whoever can claim the greatest number of miles driven before
having to
> > rebuild/replace their motor gets
> >
> > Bragging Rights
> > Authority to make other Birds listen to how they did it
> > Envy of a maybe-buyer looking for something that lasts
> >
> > Contest rules: State the miles you've driven with no remorse,
> > divulge what year/engine/tranny you drove to achieve this feat,
and
> > lay down the law about how to imitate you. (Sorry: Only over
150,000
> > eligible)
> > __________________
> > John in Arizona
> > Wannabe
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Bob Lawrence]

Pete,
How much did you pay for the radiator?
I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92. He is
new to this and needs to replace his rad.
He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.
Is this out of line?
Bob Lawrence
84 PT36
Padre Island, Tx.

> I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A
> trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the
reason
> and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills
> engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.
I've
> also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins (which
> were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>

[Pete Masterson]

It's been 2-1/2 years since I had to work done, so my recollection is a bit sketchy. (I have the receipt somewhere, but I really don't want to look for it.)

The bill ended up costing about $4600 -- with $1000 being work on the AC system (that wasn't related to the R&R of the radiator). Most of the cost was labor (at SF Bay Area rates) and I believe that the new core was about $1000 with about $2600 labor to remove and replace all the stuff -- the air charge radiator had to come out as it's part of the same assembly. 

I expect that a core might be a lot more expensive now (aluminum? brass?) -- and I'd think that labor in Corpus Christi is a bit lower than here. I think the S-60 radiator is a little larger (but big is big) -- and other costs of the R&R might be different in an S-60 vs. an 8v92.

So, if the $3,500 includes R&R plus the new radiator core -- it's probably a fair price.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:

Pete,

How much did you pay for the radiator?

I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92. He is 

new to this and needs to replace his rad.

He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.

Is this out of line?

Bob Lawrence

84 PT36

Padre Island, Tx.

I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A  

trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the 

reason  

and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills  

engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give. 

I've  

also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins (which  

were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

aeonix1@...

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[ronmarabito2002]

Bob: Talk to Steve Guerasko. He replaced his radiator last year. He
has a 90 PT.

R.e. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, tX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Lawrence"
wrote:
>
> Pete,
> How much did you pay for the radiator?
> I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92. He is
> new to this and needs to replace his rad.
> He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.
> Is this out of line?
> Bob Lawrence
> 84 PT36
> Padre Island, Tx.
>
> > I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A
> > trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the
> reason
> > and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills
> > engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.
> I've
> > also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins (which
> > were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.
> >
> > Pete Masterson
> > '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> > El Sobrante CA
> > aeonix1@
> >
>

[Bob Lawrence]

Hi Pete,
No, the price of $3,500 was just for the rad. No labor. Altho,
Richard, who did mine works for $35 per hour. Can't beat that!
Bob Lawrence
84 PT36
Padre Island,Tex

> It's been 2-1/2 years since I had to work done, so my recollection
is
> a bit sketchy. (I have the receipt somewhere, but I really don't
want
> to look for it.)
>
> The bill ended up costing about $4600 -- with $1000 being work on
the
> AC system (that wasn't related to the R&R of the radiator). Most
of
> the cost was labor (at SF Bay Area rates) and I believe that the
new
> core was about $1000 with about $2600 labor to remove and replace
all
> the stuff -- the air charge radiator had to come out as it's part
of
> the same assembly.
>
> I expect that a core might be a lot more expensive now (aluminum?
> brass?) -- and I'd think that labor in Corpus Christi is a bit
lower
> than here. I think the S-60 radiator is a little larger (but big
is
> big) -- and other costs of the R&R might be different in an S-60
vs.
> an 8v92.
>
> So, if the $3,500 includes R&R plus the new radiator core -- it's
> probably a fair price.
>
> Pete Masterson
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
> <http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>
> El Sobrante CA
> aeonix1@...
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:
>
> > Pete,
> > How much did you pay for the radiator?
> > I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92.
He is
> > new to this and needs to replace his rad.
> > He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.
> > Is this out of line?
> > Bob Lawrence
> > 84 PT36
> > Padre Island, Tx.
> >
> >> I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A
> >> trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the
> > reason
> >> and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills
> >> engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.
> > I've
> >> also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins
(which
> >> were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.
> >>
> >> Pete Masterson
> >> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >> El Sobrante CA
> >> aeonix1@
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

[Bob Lawrence]

Thanks, Ron.
Bob
> Bob: Talk to Steve Guerasko. He replaced his radiator last year. He
> has a 90 PT.
>
> R.e. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, tX 92WB40

[Pete Masterson]

Well, in that case, it seems a rather high. When I researched the matter, there was a radiator core place  (they manufactured radiator cores, whom I no longer remember*) that referred me to several northern California radiator shops, including the one I eventually used. 

* I _think_ I got the name from one of the Blue Bird lists, way back when... I don't see any references in  my saved files, though.

A price of $800 plus shipping comes to mind for what my core cost. Even with the considerable increase in some materials prices, a 400+ percent increase doesn't seem reasonable.

You might discuss what core manufacturer they're using and it might be worth searching the Internet for radiator cores for busses. I found these:

<http://www.completeradiators.com/radiatorcores.asp> with a specific mention of the DD Series 60...

and <http://radiatorgroup.com/238559bluebirdbusradiator.aspx> but this one looks more like what you'd put in an FC...

This link has Blue Bird "truck" radiators:

<http://detroitradiatorcorp.com/11_2_1.htm>

This outfit has a radiator assembly (rebuilt and used) for 6v92:

<http://www.capbusparts.com/Sec06/s6p4a.html>

I'm wondering if the price differential might be in part due to the 6v92 being so long out of production...?

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:32 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:

Hi Pete,

No, the price of $3,500 was just for the rad. No labor. Altho, 

Richard, who did mine works for $35 per hour. Can't beat that!

Bob Lawrence

84 PT36

Padre Island,Tex

It's been 2-1/2 years since I had to work done, so my recollection 

is  

a bit sketchy. (I have the receipt somewhere, but I really don't 

want  

to look for it.)

The bill ended up costing about $4600 -- with $1000 being work on 

the  

AC system (that wasn't related to the R&R of the radiator). Most 

of  

the cost was labor (at SF Bay Area rates) and I believe that the 

new  

core was about $1000 with about $2600 labor to remove and replace 

all  

the stuff -- the air charge radiator had to come out as it's part 

of  

the same assembly.

I expect that a core might be a lot more expensive now (aluminum?  

brass?) -- and I'd think that labor in Corpus Christi is a bit 

lower  

than here. I think the S-60 radiator is a little larger (but big 

is  

big) -- and other costs of the R&R might be different in an S-60 

vs.  

an 8v92.

So, if the $3,500 includes R&R plus the new radiator core -- it's  

probably a fair price.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

aeonix1@...

On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:

Pete,

How much did you pay for the radiator?

I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92. 

He is

new to this and needs to replace his rad.

He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.

Is this out of line?

Bob Lawrence

84 PT36

Padre Island, Tx.

I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A

trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the

reason

and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills

engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.

I've

also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins 

(which

were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

aeonix1@

------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

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[Joyce and Richard Hayden]

If I might jump in here with my experiences on this subject. Summer before last I found that our radiator needed to be replaced. I had had good experiences with Performance Radiator in Everett, WA when our FC needed radiator attention. As I recall the new core, using theold tanks, cost around $3800 for the radiator work only. I delivered to their shop and picked it up. I did the removal and installation myself in the "Birdhouse" which has a nice flat floor. I point that out because the thing is very heavy and not something I could have managed alone were it not for the nice floor. I used a ATV jack to do the heavy lifting. I just had to balance it.

While the radiator was out I replaced all of the 1 inch heater hoses in the engine room with silicone hose, removed and replaced all of the insulation and cleaned and painted the surfaces that I couldn't get to when the radiator was in place. I don't remember what the total came to with all of the extra work and can't look it up just now since the bus is in Yuma and I'm at home.

The radiator was necessary and the hoses were to the point of needing replaced as they were getting hard and brittle due to the heat. As withmost of our coaches the insulation was completely shot and a mess and badly needed attention. The painting was not really necessary and involved mostly my time but it sure looks nice.

I believe Performance Radiator is a west coast operation and I've seen their ads in Yuma.

Good luck Bob.

Dick Hayden - '87 PT 38 - Lake Stevens, WA

----- Original Message -----

From: "aeonix1@mac.com"

To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"

Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:13 AM

Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Most miles before engine rebuild/replacement

Well, in that case, it seems a rather high. When I researched the matter, there was a radiator core place (they manufactured radiator cores, whom I no longer remember*) that referred me to several northern California radiator shops, including the one I eventually used.

* I _think_ I got the name from one of the Blue Bird lists, way back when... I don't see any references in my saved files, though.

A price of $800 plus shipping comes to mind for what my core cost. Even with the considerable increase in some materials prices, a 400+ percent increase doesn't seem reasonable.

You might discuss what core manufacturer they're using and it might be worth searching the Internet for radiator cores for busses. I found these:

<http://www.completeradiators.com/radiatorcores.asp> with a specific mention of the DD Series 60...

and <http://radiatorgroup.com/238559bluebirdbusradiator.aspx> but this one looks more like what you'd put in an FC...

This link has Blue Bird "truck" radiators:

<http://detroitradiatorcorp.com/11_2_1.htm>

This outfit has a radiator assembly (rebuilt and used) for 6v92:

<http://www.capbusparts.com/Sec06/s6p4a.html>

I'm wondering if the price differential might be in part due to the 6v92 being so long out of production...?

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:32 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:

Hi Pete,

No, the price of $3,500 was just for the rad. No labor. Altho,

Richard, who did mine works for $35 per hour. Can't beat that!

Bob Lawrence

84 PT36

Padre Island,Tex

It's been 2-1/2 years since I had to work done, so my recollection

is

a bit sketchy. (I have the receipt somewhere, but I really don't

want

to look for it.)

The bill ended up costing about $4600 -- with $1000 being work on

the

AC system (that wasn't related to the R&R of the radiator). Most

of

the cost was labor (at SF Bay Area rates) and I believe that the

new

core was about $1000 with about $2600 labor to remove and replace

all

the stuff -- the air charge radiator had to come out as it's part

of

the same assembly.

I expect that a core might be a lot more expensive now (aluminum?

brass?) -- and I'd think that labor in Corpus Christi is a bit

lower

than here. I think the S-60 radiator is a little larger (but big

is

big) -- and other costs of the R&R might be different in an S-60

vs.

an 8v92.

So, if the $3,500 includes R&R plus the new radiator core -- it's

probably a fair price.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

aeonix1@...

On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Bob Lawrence wrote:

Pete,

How much did you pay for the radiator?

I'm trying to get an answer for a Powell Brown and his 88 8v92.

He is

new to this and needs to replace his rad.

He has been quoted $3,500 for one in Corpus Christi.

Is this out of line?

Bob Lawrence

84 PT36

Padre Island, Tx.

I noted (on my maiden trip) that it had an overheating problem. A

trip to a heavy-duty bus/truck radiator shop quickly found the

reason

and I had a new radiator core installed. Excessive heat kills

engines, probably the quickest of any abuse an owner can give.

I've

also added regular cleaning of the (external) radiator fins

(which

were clogged with oily-dirt) to my maintenance list.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

aeonix1@

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

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