Holding tanks frozen. Now what?

[Ryan Wright]

Maybe not the entire tanks (not sure how to tell), but the drains are
frozen, anyway. I got the grey valve open and I know the tank is half
full but nothing comes out. Can't even budge the black valve. Any ideas?

Has anyone wrapped their drain lines with heat tape? Good idea?

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Glenn Allen]

Ryan,

Try taking a hair dryer to the valve and the adjoining pipe.

Good luck.

Glenn

[Pete Masterson]

I had my valves freeze -- couldn't get them open -- and I've had my valves very difficult to open due to early morning freezing temperatures. 

Once you have ice, there isn't much you can do except get the bus to a warmer place. The trick is to (try to) avoid forming ice in the first place. The times I've been caught were when I didn't realize that I'd get hit with freezing temperatures during the early morning hours...

Although on my '95, the basement is heated (which protects most of the plumbing) the dump valves are somewhat exposed by their location and by the hole where the slinky hose exits the "utility" compartment. (Earlier 'Birds may have more exposed pipes.) When freezing temperatures are expected, I put a heaping cup or two of rock salt into both the black and gray tanks just after emptying them. I run the salt down the bathroom sink (for the gray tank) with warm water, and just flush the rock salt down the toilet for the black tank. This seems to keep the dump valves from freezing -- and by putting the salt in the empty tank, it tends to move down to the valve area. Since all the salt won't immediately dissolve into the water, it will 'hang around' the valves, increasing the salt concentration there, keeping them from freezing.

If moving to a warmer place isn't practical, you might try using a hair dryer -- but that might take too long. I'm not familiar enough with heat tape to know if it's a good idea or not. I did see some heat tape on a plastic pipe (in a normally hidden wire/plumbing chase) in my coach when I replaced the carpet with bamboo wood flooring. So, I guess it won't damage the plastic.

Expect it to take several hours to thaw with the heat tape. Inspect the pipe carefully for leaks. Hopefully, the ice formed in a way where the expansion moved up the pipe rather than cracking it.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jan 3, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Ryan Wright wrote:

Maybe not the entire tanks (not sure how to tell), but the drains are  

frozen, anyway. I got the grey valve open and I know the tank is half  

full but nothing comes out. Can't even budge the black valve. Any ideas?

Has anyone wrapped their drain lines with heat tape?  Good idea?

[sfedeli3]

Ryan,

I would try mixing a 5-gallon bucket of warm water and Kosher Salt.
Use a whole 5 lb. box of the salt- Kosher salt will dissolve more
readily in water and it should help you by seeping down around the ice
and eventually melting it. I try to stay away from rock salt because
it usually does not fully dissolve and tends to stick in the seats of
the paddle valves. When we run in the winter, I usually pour 4 cups of
table salt into a 5-gallon bucket and put one load in each tank. I've
never used heat tape on anything but the fresh water hose and hose bib
at the campsite. That's not even needed if you just fill up and dump
when needed and put the hoses away.

Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Ryan Wright
wrote:
>
> Maybe not the entire tanks (not sure how to tell), but the drains are
> frozen, anyway. I got the grey valve open and I know the tank is half
> full but nothing comes out. Can't even budge the black valve. Any ideas?
>
> Has anyone wrapped their drain lines with heat tape? Good idea?
>
> -Ryan
> '86 PT-40 8V92
>

[erniecarpet]

Ryan, while I was in Montana last Jan thru April, I went to the lumber yard and bought some rigid foam insulation boards. The stuff comes in 4x 8 sheets. There is a steel channel where my tanks are located and this foam will fit up there. I used some tape to keep it closed and put an electric heater in that compartment. Worked great. This year, I'm staying in Texas

Ernie -83PT40 in Texas

In a message dated 01/03/09 19:52:28 Central Standard Time, ryanpwright@... writes:

Maybe not the entire tanks (not sure how to tell), but the drains are
frozen, anyway. I got the grey valve open and I know the tank is half
full but nothing comes out. Can't even budge the black valve. Any ideas?

Has anyone wrapped their drain lines with heat tape? Good idea?

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

---

Get a free MP3 every day with the Spinner.com Toolbar. Get it Now.

[Ryan Wright]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm going to try the salt with the
5 gallon bucket method first.

Didn't some Wanderlodges come with heated holding tanks? How did this
work - did they route engine coolant through a heat exchanger? Which
years would have had this option available?

This summer, I think I may rebuild my drain system. I'm envisioning
electric dump valves, fully insulated drain pipes wrapped with heat
tape, and a second drain "port" with a fixed/hard mounted macerating
pump. Some extra insulation around the holding tanks, as Ernie did,
etc.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Don Bradner]

On mine, the tank heaters are electric pads under the tanks. The blackwater
heater had been left on at some point with a (presumably) empty tank, and caused
large cracks in the bottom along the lines of the wires in the pad. I had to
remove and repair the tank.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Home in Eureka, CA
My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 1/4/2009 at 2:10 PM Ryan Wright wrote:

>Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm going to try the salt with the
>5 gallon bucket method first.
>
>Didn't some Wanderlodges come with heated holding tanks? How did this
>work - did they route engine coolant through a heat exchanger? Which
>years would have had this option available?
>
>This summer, I think I may rebuild my drain system. I'm envisioning
>electric dump valves, fully insulated drain pipes wrapped with heat
>tape, and a second drain "port" with a fixed/hard mounted macerating
>pump. Some extra insulation around the holding tanks, as Ernie did,
>etc.
>
>-Ryan
>'86 PT-40 8V92
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Pete Masterson]

I recall hearing that some of the older WLs had a heat pad under the tanks, presumably thermostat controlled or with an on-off switch. Newer WLs (I'm guessing wide body models) have more insulation and those with AquaHot or Webasto units have a heated basement. (Again, I can't be sure about pre '94 models, but they may have had some means of heating the basement.

My coach, for example, has the dump valves inside the compartment. There is a 2" hole for the water hose and a 5" (or so) hole for the slinky hose to pass through. Both holes have a threaded edge to hold caps (but they were missing when I got my coach). I was able to put together a plug for the 2" hole from some plumbing components, but when I got a pipe cap for the larger hole, the threads didn't work.

The assumption is that the area will remain warm enough (from the heated basement compartments) that it will keep the valves from freezing. However, my experience is that it only takes a little ice to lock up the valves pretty tight. (i.e. I don't believe that the valves and pipe leading to them were fully blocked by ice, only that there was enough ice formed around the valve area that the valve wouldn't move.) The salt trick (whether you use rock, kosher, or table) does seem to work -- at least for temperatures in the high teens (I haven't experienced lower temperatures in my 'bird). 

When I've stayed where there were freezing conditions, I'd keep the basement buttoned up, and I had no trouble dumping so long as I put in a salt treatment after each dump. (The only times I had freezing difficulties was when I wasn't expecting a freeze...) For fresh water, since I didn't want to hassle with heat tape and hose insulation (I wasn't staying that long in those conditions), I'd fill the fresh tank in the afternoon, and we'd use the pump instead of the shore water. Hint: be sure to drain the hose after filling the tank. I forgot, once, and then I had to drag an awkward, frozen icicle-hose inside to thaw it out. I didn't make that mistake twice .

I'm sure that wrapping insulation around the pipes, especially if they're exposed under the coach, would help prevent a freeze up -- after all, the water and other materials entering the tanks are usually well above the freezing point and the insulation will tend to hold the heat inside. The hassle with the electrical to add freeze tape might not be worth it, unless you plan to stay in freezing temperatures for extended periods.

However, the whole point of the RV is that you can move to locations where it doesn't freeze -- which is why we've decided to over-winter at our home in California. (53 today, with 43 expected overnight.)

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Ryan Wright wrote:

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm going to try the salt with the

5 gallon bucket method first.

Didn't some Wanderlodges come with heated holding tanks? How did this

work - did they route engine coolant through a heat exchanger? Which

years would have had this option available?

This summer, I think I may rebuild my drain system. I'm envisioning

electric dump valves, fully insulated drain pipes wrapped with heat

tape, and a second drain "port" with a fixed/hard mounted macerating

pump. Some extra insulation around the holding tanks, as Ernie did,

etc.

-Ryan

'86 PT-40 8V92

[Ryan Wright]

Thanks for the response, Pete. One comment:

> However, the whole point of the RV is that you can move to locations where
> it doesn't freeze -- which is why we've decided to over-winter at our home
> in California. (53 today, with 43 expected overnight.)

I'm not retired, unfortunately, so I need to configure my coach to
function well in lower temperatures. If I just up and headed south for
the winter, my paychecks would stop coming in and I'd wind up stranded
and hungry.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Leroy Eckert]

Ryan, are you living in the coach this winter? Or is it parked in the yard? My coach has tank heaters which I never turn on because I have had a bad experience with heat strips. It gets very cold here in the mountains so I simply empty the tanks during the winter. I still get quiet time in the coach while parked in the driveway. Leroy Eckert 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors Dahlonega, GA Royale Conversion --- On Sun, 1/4/09, Ryan Wright wrote: From: Ryan Wright Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Holding tanks frozen. Now what? To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 10:35 PM Thanks for the response, Pete. One comment: > However, the whole point of the RV is that you can move to locations where > it doesn't freeze -- which is why we've decided to over-winter at our home > in California. (53 today, with 43 expected overnight.) I'm not retired, unfortunately, so I need to configure my coach to function well in lower temperatures. If I just up and headed south for the winter, my paychecks would stop coming in and I'd wind up stranded and hungry. -Ryan '86 PT-40 8V92