Generator hard start

[Rick Davis]

Thanks Chuck.I don't have my bluebox with me and don't even know enough about it to know if the Kubota/Powertech has such a priming pump.

---

From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:58:45 AM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start

Inour Kohler there is a TDR (Time delay relay) in the control box that gives the oil pressure time to come up but all generators I have been around have similar control. An easy check would be to ground the oil pressure switch that controls the shutdown. If it starts and runs you have a problem in the shutdown circuit. I am still willing to bet on fuel problems. You are getting air in the fuel system somewhere and after it is cranks enough you are finally getting the fuel system primed. If your generator has a priming pump operate it until you can feel back pressure and see if it starts immediately.

- Chuck Wheeler-

1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX

---

From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Rick Davis
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:23 AM
To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start

Thanks for your thoughts Gary,

If it was a relay, wouldn't that mean that it would probably be more inconsistent than it is? It has consistently started after the four to sixth turnover attempt.

Regarding oil pressure; I have oil pressure after it starts of course, but howwould I know if I have any during the start attempts?Shouldthe guage show pressureeven during the attempted startperiod? I've been starting it from outside, but maybe next time I will start it from inside and watch the guage.

Thanks again.

Rick Davis

'93 WLSA

in Houston

---

From: GARY MINKER
To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:25:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start

Sounds like oil pressure or indication to me. I have seen this one before. There are also some relays in the box that hang up plus if the alternator makes no 120/240 it will drop itself as it is all stupidly fail safed through each relay. It can be touchy to troubleshoot but I would go there. You can dummy out the oil sender. You have to know if it is a go high or goes low. --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Rick Davis wrote: From: Rick Davis Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 11:04 AM Gary, I guess I shouldn't use the phrase "quits quickly", since it never really starts. Itjust sounds like it is trying so hard to start, but just won't stay going that extra second or two. I feel that holding down the starter button longer would help, but I am punchy to hold it down more than a second or two. I played with it again yesterday, andit will start on about the 6th try; two trys at a time before waiting a couple of minutes. I am hitting the glow plug each time I get back to it. It has the big modified air filter on it, and I have ordered a new one from Birtles. Maybe that will help. Rick Davis '93 WLSA in hot Houston for now From: GARY MINKER To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:42:11 AM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start What is (quits quickly?) If your oil pressure is low, it will drop the engine like a stone. Do you hold the starter in for a few extra seconds and it will start? Is this an oil pressure shut down due to fresh start up? If so, it is not broken. Your engine is clearanced and needs some revs to get the pressure up. --- On Sun, 7/19/09, davisgr wrote: From: davisgr Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 9:14 PM I'm still having genny start problems when starting it after it has sat for days. I have some hot weather driving coming up with guests on board, and am getting punchy about the possibility of it getting worse. especially after it always kicking right off. It seems to turn over fast enough, and it "starts" quick enough but quits quickly. My sequence is this: 1)Hit glow plug for 20 seconds. Hit start button with no start. Hit start button and start but quit after a second or two. 2)Wait a oouple or three minutes and repeat, with it maybe running a second or two longer this time. 3)Finally on the third or fourth series it will finally lump lump along for a few seconds but stay on long enough for the fan to kick in and start purring like a kitten. Once started it runs great. And it will start great again after it has been started, even after it has been turned off for up to an hour. Oil pressure is good. It is about time for a oil and fuel filter change. You think I should just do that now, or anyone have any other ideas? Rick Davis '93 WLSA in Houston

[Ed Gardels]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Rick Davis wrote:
>Rick, My 3cylKobota Was hard to start for the first two years I owned it. It
would crank but not fire, until several attempts, where it would fire once, then
twice then finnally kick off and run perfect.
After replacing fuel filter and many suggestions, I took it to onan/kobota
factory authorised service center here in Fort Worth. It cost me $300,but its
started perfect every time since.
They found that the preheat wasnt getting to the plugs. The CANNON PLUG between
the contol box and the engine was the prob. They bypassed two wires around the
plug. The cannon plugs can causemany problems after corrision sets in. Only
thing is now mine started to over heat and shut down starting yesterday. will
look at it when it stops raining.
Hope this might help
Ed Gardels 89SP
Arlington Texas




> Thanks Chuck.  I don't have my bluebox with me and don't even know enough
about it to know if the Kubota/Powertech has such a priming pump.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Chuck Wheeler
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:58:45 AM
> Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>  
> In our Kohler there is a TDR (Time delay relay) in the control box that gives
the oil pressure time to come up but all generators I have been around have
similar control.  An easy check would be to ground the oil pressure switch that
controls the shutdown.  If it starts and runs you have a problem in the shutdown
circuit.  I am still willing to bet on fuel problems.  You are getting air in
the fuel system somewhere and after it is cranks enough you are finally getting
the fuel system primed.  If your generator has a priming pump operate it until
you can feel back pressure and see if it starts immediately.
>
> - Chuck Wheeler-
> 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup
s.com] On Behalf Of Rick Davis
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:23 AM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>  
> Thanks for your thoughts Gary,
>
> If it was a relay, wouldn't that mean that it would probably be more
inconsistent than it is?  It has consistently started after the four to sixth
turnover attempt.
>
> Regarding oil pressure; I have oil pressure after it starts of course, but
how would I know if I have any during the start attempts?  Should the guage show
pressure even during the attempted start period?  I've been starting it from
outside, but maybe next time I will start it from inside and watch the guage.
>
> Thanks again.
> Rick Davis
> '93 WLSA
> in Houston
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: GARY MINKER
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:25:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>  
> Sounds like oil pressure or indication to me.  I have seen this one before. 
There are also some relays in the box that hang up plus if the alternator makes
no 120/240 it will drop itself as it is all stupidly fail safed through each
relay.  It can be touchy to troubleshoot but I would go there.  You can dummy
out the oil sender.  You have to know if it is a go high or goes low.
>
> --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Rick Davis wrote:
>
>
> >From: Rick Davis
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 11:04 AM
> >
> >
> > 
> >Gary, I guess I shouldn't use the phrase "quits quickly", since it never
really starts.  It just sounds like it is trying so hard to start, but just
won't stay going that extra second or two.  I feel that holding down the starter
button longer would help, but I am punchy to hold it down more than a second or
two.  I played with it again yesterday, and it will start on about the 6th try;
two trys at a time before waiting a couple of minutes.  I am hitting the glow
plug each time I get back to it.  It has the big modified air filter on it, and
I have ordered a new one from Birtles.  Maybe that will help.
> >Rick Davis
> >'93 WLSA
> >in hot Houston for now
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________
> From: GARY MINKER
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:42:11 AM
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >
> > 
> >What is (quits quickly?) If your oil pressure is low, it will drop the engine
like a stone.  Do you hold the starter in for a few extra seconds and it will
start?  Is this an oil pressure shut down due to fresh start up?  If so, it is
not broken.  Your engine is clearanced and needs some revs to get the pressure
up.
> >
> >--- On Sun, 7/19/09, davisgr wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: davisgr
> >>Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >>To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >>Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 9:14 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>I'm still having genny start problems when starting it after it has sat for
days. I have some hot weather driving coming up with guests on board, and am
getting punchy about the possibility of it getting worse. especially after it
always kicking right off.
> >>
> >>It seems to turn over fast enough, and it "starts" quick enough but quits
quickly.
> >>
> >>My sequence is this:
> >>1)Hit glow plug for 20 seconds. Hit start button with no start. Hit start
button and start but quit after a second or two.
> >>
> >>2)Wait a oouple or three minutes and repeat, with it maybe running a second
or two longer this time.
> >>
> >>3)Finally on the third or fourth series it will finally lump lump along for
a few seconds but stay on long enough for the fan to kick in and start purring
like a kitten.
> >>
> >>Once started it runs great. And it will start great again after it has been
started, even after it has been turned off for up to an hour.
> >>
> >>Oil pressure is good. It is about time for a oil and fuel filter change. You
think I should just do that now, or anyone have any other ideas?
> >>
> >>Rick Davis
> >>'93 WLSA
> >>in Houston
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Sounds like they didnt fix it and only bypassed the shutoff if-then safety
prompt that shut it down. the explanation that the glow plugs were not working
seems off. in the summer when the air and all is warm or above 60 there is
little need for glow plugs unless you have a compression problem or slow starer
spin problem.

I like to contract and consult the mechanics at privately owned rental yards.
they are usualy very well versed in multiple and unique applications. the
genset is one of those apps. there is many variables; shutdown systems,
autostarts, disconnected auto starts, factory options imcomplete, independent
alts, fuel delivery paths,etc. these things are not evident even to the applianc
trained factory tech.

one thing that can cause heat is stress. if it is hard to start and seems slow,
the alt (generator) may be shot as far as bearings and causing a drag. to
test???: if you load up a genset with a bunch of electrical demand, the load
will be great and engine should show the strain. if you then shut the main
pannel off, the engine should purr at idle and realize the absence of demand. if
you still detect it running against a strain, it may be the bearings in the
genhead.

one other way to test the genhead bearings is with heat. it should not be hotter
than the engine nor should it heat up fast. that is why it is good to have a
relative comparison chart of heat when things are running good. if a member can
shoot a couple of temps of a like genset at a described environment, you can
duplicate the environment and take a read.

may be there is air in your radiator??
run then open all the hoses one at a time and let it leak a bit
check that the waterpump has flow
restriction in the intake??
ru it with the aircleaner off and see if pro continues
restriction in the exhaust??
remove and run it without exhaust. check for crank case pressure and blow by
which increase with backpressure

Greg ofTim&Greg
94ptca


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Gardels" wrote:
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Rick Davis wrote:

> After replacing fuel filter and many suggestions, I took it to onan/kobota
factory authorised service center here in Fort Worth. It cost me $300,but its
started perfect every time since.
> They found that the preheat wasnt getting to the plugs. The CANNON PLUG
between the contol box and the engine was the prob. They bypassed two wires
around the plug. The cannon plugs can causemany problems after corrision sets
in. Only thing is now mine started to over heat and shut down starting
yesterday. will look at it when it stops raining.
> Hope this might help
> Ed Gardels 89SP
> Arlington Texas

[Rick Davis]

This is afinal followup to my genny hard start problem. Thanks to all who responded with suggestions.

I don't know exactly what has fixed the problem, unless it was a combination of items. I replaced the fuel and air filters when also changing the oil, but I also found a slight fuel leak at one of the injector pump nozzles. I don't know if it wasn't there or if I justnever noticed it before. I had new o-rings put in them. Anyway, it appears it now starts fine, or at least it did after a 2 day period. I will check it again in a couple of weeks when I get back hometo see how it starts.

Thanks again,

Rick Davis

1993 WBSA (finallyin its Tennessee nest)

---

From: Ed Gardels
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 1:57:36 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Generator hard start

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", Rick Davis wrote:
>Rick, My 3cylKobota Was hard to start for the first two years I owned it. It would crank but not fire, until several attempts, where it would fire once, then twice then finnally kick off and run perfect.
After replacing fuel filter and many suggestions, I took it to onan/kobota factory authorised service center here in Fort Worth. It cost me $300,but its started perfect every time since.
They found that the preheat wasnt getting to the plugs. The CANNON PLUG between the contol box and the engine was the prob. They bypassed two wires around the plug. The cannon plugs can causemany problems after corrision sets in. Only thing is now mine started to over heat and shut down starting yesterday. will look at it when it stops
raining.
Hope this might help
Ed Gardels 89SP
Arlington Texas

> Thanks Chuck.I don't have my bluebox with me and don't even know enough about it to know if the Kubota/Powertech has such a priming pump.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Chuck Wheeler
> To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:58:45 AM
> Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>
> Inour Kohler there is a TDR (Time delay relay) in the control box that gives the oil pressure time to come up but all generators I have been around have similar control. An easy check would be to ground the oil pressure switch that controls the shutdown. If it
starts and runs you have a problem in the shutdown circuit. I am still willing to bet on fuel problems. You are getting air in the fuel system somewhere and after it is cranks enough you are finally getting the fuel system primed. If your generator has a priming pump operate it until you can feel back pressure and see if it starts immediately.
>
> - Chuck Wheeler-
> 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Rick Davis
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:23 AM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts Gary,
>
> If it was a relay, wouldn't that mean that it would probably be more
inconsistent than it is? It has consistently started after the four to sixth turnover attempt.
>
> Regarding oil pressure; I have oil pressure after it starts of course, but howwould I know if I have any during the start attempts?Should the guage show pressureeven during the attempted startperiod? I've been starting it from outside, but maybe next time I will start it from inside and watch the guage.
>
> Thanks again.
> Rick Davis
> '93 WLSA
> in Houston
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: GARY MINKER
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:25:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
>
>
> Sounds like oil pressure or indication to me. I have seen this one before.
There are also some relays in the box that hang up plus if the alternator makes no 120/240 it will drop itself as it is all stupidly fail safed through each relay. It can be touchy to troubleshoot but I would go there. You can dummy out the oil sender. You have to know if it is a go high or goes low.
>
> --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Rick Davis wrote:
>
>
> >From: Rick Davis
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 11:04 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >Gary, I guess I shouldn't use the phrase "quits quickly", since it never really starts. Itjust sounds like it is trying so hard to start, but just won't stay going that extra second or two. I feel that holding down the starter button longer would
help, but I am punchy to hold it down more than a second or two. I played with it again yesterday, andit will start on about the 6th try; two trys at a time before waiting a couple of minutes. I am hitting the glow plug each time I get back to it. It has the big modified air filter on it, and I have ordered a new one from Birtles. Maybe that will help.
> >Rick Davis
> >'93 WLSA
> >in hot Houston for now
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: GARY MINKER
> >To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:42:11 AM
> >Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >
> >
> >What is (quits quickly?) If your oil pressure is low, it will drop the engine like a stone. Do you hold the starter in for a few
extra seconds and it will start? Is this an oil pressure shut down due to fresh start up? If so, it is not broken. Your engine is clearanced and needs some revs to get the pressure up.
> >
> >--- On Sun, 7/19/09, davisgr wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: davisgr
> >>Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start
> >>To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> >>Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 9:14 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm still having genny start problems when starting it after it has sat for days. I have some hot weather driving coming up with guests on board, and am getting punchy about the possibility of it getting worse. especially after it always kicking right off.
> >>
> >>It seems to turn over fast enough, and it "starts" quick
enough but quits quickly.
> >>
> >>My sequence is this:
> >>1)Hit glow plug for 20 seconds. Hit start button with no start. Hit start button and start but quit after a second or two.
> >>
> >>2)Wait a oouple or three minutes and repeat, with it maybe running a second or two longer this time.
> >>
> >>3)Finally on the third or fourth series it will finally lump lump along for a few seconds but stay on long enough for the fan to kick in and start purring like a kitten.
> >>
> >>Once started it runs great. And it will start great again after it has been started, even after it has been turned off for up to an hour.
> >>
> >>Oil pressure is good. It is about time for a oil and fuel filter change. You think I should just do that now, or anyone have any other ideas?
> >>
> >>Rick Davis
> >>'93
WLSA
> >>in Houston
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[GARY MINKER]

My gauges are pretty unreliable. They are the last known position type and I tend not to trust them but I have verified them on occasion. It is a split feeling. Burned contacts on the run relay can be pretty intermittant. Loose connections are a plague also. This can be a tough one. --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Chuck Wheeler wrote: From: Chuck Wheeler Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 11:58 AM Inour Kohler there is a TDR (Time delay relay) in the control box that gives the oil pressure time to come up but all generators I have been around have similar control. An easy check would be to ground the oil pressure switch that controls the shutdown. If it starts and runs you have a problem in the shutdown circuit. I am still willing to bet on fuel problems. You are getting air in the fuel system somewhere and after it is cranks enough you are finally getting the fuel system primed. If your generator has a priming pump operate it until you can feel back pressure and see if it starts immediately. - Chuck Wheeler- 1982 FC 31SB Fort Worth TX From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Rick Davis Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 10:23 AM To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start Thanks for your thoughts Gary, If it was a relay, wouldn't that mean that it would probably be more inconsistent than it is? It has consistently started after the four to sixth turnover attempt. Regarding oil pressure; I have oil pressure after it starts of course, but howwould I know if I have any during the start attempts?Shouldthe guage show pressureeven during the attempted startperiod? I've been starting it from outside, but maybe next time I will start it from inside and watch the guage. Thanks again. Rick Davis '93 WLSA in Houston From: GARY MINKER To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:25:20 PM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start Sounds like oil pressure or indication to me. I have seen this one before. There are also some relays in the box that hang up plus if the alternator makes no 120/240 it will drop itself as it is all stupidly fail safed through each relay. It can be touchy to troubleshoot but I would go there. You can dummy out the oil sender. You have to know if it is a go high or goes low. --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Rick Davis wrote: From: Rick Davis Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 11:04 AM Gary, I guess I shouldn't use the phrase "quits quickly", since it never really starts. Itjust sounds like it is trying so hard to start, but just won't stay going that extra second or two. I feel that holding down the starter button longer would help, but I am punchy to hold it down more than a second or two. I played with it again yesterday, andit will start on about the 6th try; two trys at a time before waiting a couple of minutes. I am hitting the glow plug each time I get back to it. It has the big modified air filter on it, and I have ordered a new one from Birtles. Maybe that will help. Rick Davis '93 WLSA in hot Houston for now From: GARY MINKER To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:42:11 AM Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start What is (quits quickly?) If your oil pressure is low, it will drop the engine like a stone. Do you hold the starter in for a few extra seconds and it will start? Is this an oil pressure shut down due to fresh start up? If so, it is not broken. Your engine is clearanced and needs some revs to get the pressure up. --- On Sun, 7/19/09, davisgr wrote: From: davisgr Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Generator hard start To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 9:14 PM I'm still having genny start problems when starting it after it has sat for days. I have some hot weather driving coming up with guests on board, and am getting punchy about the possibility of it getting worse. especially after it always kicking right off. It seems to turn over fast enough, and it "starts" quick enough but quits quickly. My sequence is this: 1)Hit glow plug for 20 seconds. Hit start button with no start. Hit start button and start but quit after a second or two. 2)Wait a oouple or three minutes and repeat, with it maybe running a second or two longer this time. 3)Finally on the third or fourth series it will finally lump lump along for a few seconds but stay on long enough for the fan to kick in and start purring like a kitten. Once started it runs great. And it will start great again after it has been started, even after it has been turned off for up to an hour. Oil pressure is good. It is about time for a oil and fuel filter change. You think I should just do that now, or anyone have any other ideas? Rick Davis '93 WLSA in Houston