Continuing Electrical Problems

[Steve Hinds]

I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New batteries
and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the problem. I found
out that the converter/charger was not producing enough voltage (10.6) and
replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a voltage meter which shows
current voltage being produced. While driving, the voltage has been surging
from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the two. As this happens, the
tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5 to 7 seconds. Any ideas for
chasing down the problem will be appreciated.

Steve Hinds
'82 FC

[Michael]

Have you checked the ground on the remote voltage regulator? I've had to scrape
paint away from the mounting screws to get a good ground on them. Then make
sure the plug on the regulator and alternator is clean and contact is good. Do
you have a battery isolator in the path anywhere? If so that would determine
where you read your voltage and where you may want your remote regulator sensing
from.

Michael Putz
78FC35
Mesa, Az


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hinds" wrote:
>
> I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New
batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the
problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough
voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a
voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the
voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the
two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5
to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated.
>
> Steve Hinds
> '82 FC
>

[Gregory OConnor]

It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there is
electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the
problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the
block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this
while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the
fault
Greg 94ptca


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hinds" wrote:
>
> I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New
batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the
problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough
voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a
voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the
voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the
two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5
to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated.
>
> Steve Hinds
> '82 FC
>

[trekkersmith1]

Check all battery cables (both ends) for clean tight connection, no fraying, no
cables shorting out against the chassis. You may need to remove each ground
cable from it's attachment to the chassis, wire brush the area it attaches on
the chassis, then using a couple star washers, one one each side of the cable,
re-attach. May solve your problems.
Gary
SOB
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
>
> It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there is
electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the
problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the
block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this
while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the
fault
> Greg 94ptca
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hinds" wrote:
> >
> > I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New
batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the
problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough
voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a
voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the
voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the
two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5
to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated.
> >
> > Steve Hinds
> > '82 FC
> >
>

[Wilhelmus Schreurs]

All of the suggestions could be true, and definitely I would look for loose connections, hot and ground.
BUT since you say that you have a pulsing voltage, this would lead me to alternator itself, like a bad diode.
If you have an electric motor rebuild shop close by, I would get them to check it out, you might be able to drive it to them and get to check it out while still on the coach.

Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada

---

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[Gregory OConnor]

Long post with a cut and paste that may shed light on some issues owners often
fail to look at when a minor problem compound the damage. I am not saying
degraded radiator fluid can cause electrical problems, just saying both
'electrical issues' with 'off-balance radiator fluid' (fluid with ability to
pass current) can leave the bus vulnerable to major engine damage. After an
engine failure I always look for the clues that proceeded the event like;
previous work, ;noises, ;performance, ;temps and conditions in the hopes to
avoid future and explain current damage.

Reading the article and listening to RonM's clues might shed light on his
Canadian sleeve failure???????

The Basics of Diesel-Engine Coolant



September 1, 2005
By Walt Moore, Senior Editor


Elizabeth Nelson, coolant program manager at Polaris Laboratories, a
fluid-analysis company in Indianapolis, Ind., tells a story that would strike
fear into the heart of any fleet manager. A class-8 on-highway truck seemed in
fine condition when it left the West Coast, but at the end of its 6,000-mile
cross-country run, a cylinder sleeve failed and catastrophic engine failure
resulted. According to Nelson, the cause of the disaster was an electrical short
in the truck's starter.

"An electrical short in a vehicle takes the path of least resistance to ground,"
says Nelson, "and often that's through the cooling system. In this instance, the
electrical current passing through the coolant so quickly depleted the nitrite
additive in the antifreeze, that the sleeves no longer had protection against
cavitation. When coolant analysis shows a rapid depletion of nitrite, coupled
with an increase in nitrates, it's always a red flag for an electrical short."

A combustion-gas leak, on the other hand, says Nelson, causes a sharp drop in pH
(usually below 7) and an increase in sulfates. Air leaking into the cooling
system, however, typically results in a lowered pH, she says, (but usually not
below 7.5) and a drop in nitrite level (but not as rapid as with an electrical
problem).

What's in the radiator?
Although regular coolant analysis is a good way to keep tabs on the health of a
vehicle's coolant system, coolant analysis is not nearly as popular as oil
analysis. For many equipment owners, truth be told, what goes on in their
machine's cooling system is somewhat of a mystery.

"Ask most fleet managers about their lube-maintenance programs, and they'll talk
in detail," says Craig Gullett, brand marketing manager for Old World
Industries, a major antifreeze manufacturer. "Ask about their
coolant-maintenance programs, however, and more often than not, answers become
rather uncertain."

A frequent weak link in coolant maintenance, and the probable cause of many
coolant-related engine problems, says Carmen Ulabarro, coolants market
development specialist for ChevronTexaco, is the lack of understanding about
what coolant is being used in the vehicle — and how to maintain that specific
formulation.

Virtually all heavy-duty antifreeze is roughly 95 percent ethylene glycol and 5
percent water and additives. The stuff that isn't made from ethylene glycol
(only about 1 percent of all antifreeze sold) is made from propylene glycol,
which is less toxic, but also more expensive. "Coolant" is created when glycol
is mixed with various ratios of water. Typical ratios range from 30 to 60
percent glycol.

Heavy-duty antifreeze formulations differ from one another by virtue of the
additive package blended into the ethylene glycol. Additive packages, of course,
all have the same task, namely to fight rust, scale and corrosion — and in
diesel engines, to protect wet cylinder sleeves from cavitation. But the
additive packages among various antifreeze formulations have fundamentally
different chemical fingerprints.

Until maybe 15 years ago, heavy-duty engines typically were filled with
"conventional" antifreeze, identified by the American Society for Testing and
Materials (ASTM) standard D-4985. This antifreeze, however, which is still in
prevalent use today, can't be used in diesel engines without first treating it
with a "supplemental coolant additive" (SCA) that contains nitrite for
protecting wet sleeves. The required initial treatment is an approximate
3-percent concentration of SCA (one pint per four gallons of cooling-system
capacity).

Today, the preferred conventional antifreeze for diesel engines is "fully
formulated," identified as ASTM D-6210 or RP-329 by the Technology & Maintenance
Council (TMC). This antifreeze is sold with an SCA package already blended in,
typically including nitrate to protect iron and steel, tolyltriazole to protect
copper and brass, borate or phosphate to buffer acids (formed as glycol breaks
down), silicate to protect aluminum and nitrite (sometimes accompanied by
molybdate) to form a cavitation-resistant barrier on sleeves.

These additives are depleted as the coolant works and ages, however, and must be
replenished periodically with an SCA package. Especially critical is the renewal
of an adequate nitrite level. But you must be careful here, because too much
nitrite may cause solder corrosion, and excess accumulation of other additives
causes "total dissolved solids" (TDS) to increase, possibly jeopardizing cooling
efficiency and resulting in passage-clogging dropout. Cautious maintenance
guidelines may suggest replacing fully formulated conventional coolant at
two-year intervals to avoid TDS problems.

To simplify maintenance, the antifreeze industry developed "extended-life
coolants" (ELC), which are formulations typically advertised with a service life
of 600,000 miles or 12,000 hours. These formulations, originally at least,
replaced the additive package used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze
with "organic-acid inhibitors," designed to protect metal parts by forming a
thin protective skin against destructive forces in the coolant.

These "organic-acid-technology" (or OAT) antifreezes use the base or neutralized
version of organic (carbon-containing) acids, typically (but not always) the
carboxylate acids of 2-ethyl hexanoic acid (2-EH) and/or sebacic acid. Most
heavy-duty carboxylate formulations, however, also contain some of the additives
used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze, namely nitrite and molybdate,
and sometimes silicate. OAT formulations that include nitrite sometimes are
called nitrited-organic-acid-technology antifreeze, or simply a NOAT.

According to some antifreeze experts, anytime you add inorganic inhibitors (like
nitrite) to an organic-acid-based formulation, you have created a hybrid, or a
Hybrid OAT, or a HOAT. Others say, though, that a hybrid is technically a
product characterized by the use of non-carboxylate acids, such as benzoate,
from benzoic acid, another organic acid.

Maintenance
To ChevronTexaco's Ulabarro's point, the start of good coolant maintenance
begins with knowing which antifreeze formulation is in your machine's radiator.

Most NOAT formulations, for example, require the addition of an "extender" at
300,000 miles or 6,000 hours to replenish nitrite, which is used up at a far
slower rate in an extended-life coolant than in a fully formulated conventional.
Important to note here, perhaps, is that European engine manufacturers are
evaluating — maybe even leaning toward — the use of carboxylate-based
extended-life coolants without nitrite.

Don't buy into the philosophy, however, that extended-life coolant needs no
regular maintenance. The experts recommend inspecting it at the vehicle's
regular maintenance intervals to make sure it's clear (no rust), that the color
is right (not mixed with another antifreeze type) and that it has sufficient
freeze/boil protection, best determined by using a refractometer.

Maintenance guidelines for cooling systems with fully formulated conventional
antifreeze typically include periodic testing of SCA levels and appropriate
adjustment, as well as periodic draining, flushing and refilling the system to
avoid, as already noted, an excess of dissolved solids.

You can test the additive concentration of fully formulated conventional coolant
by supplying samples to a fluids-analysis laboratory. Or, you can do the testing
yourself by using paper test strips, which are chemically sensitive and change
color to indicate freeze/boil point (glycol content), nitrite (or
nitrite/molybdate) levels and, in some instances, pH.

When the addition of an SCA is indicated, keep in mind that two major types of
SCA are available, one with a nitrite/borate formulation, the other with a
nitrite/molybdate/phosphate formulation. It's probably best not to mix them, and
it's best to use a test strip designed for the specific formulation. Those in
the know say to be careful about buying bargain-priced SCA formulations, which
may be inferior. Look for a stated compliance with an ASTM standard on the
package, likely D-5752, to ensure that you're buying a quality product.

Some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, however, employ a
coolant filter charged with an SCA package. This filter/additive assembly is
designed to release metered amounts of additives over time and, thus, to
maintain optimum levels. As long as testing indicates proper additive levels,
and provided that top-up is done with a 50/50 mix of the correct antifreeze and
deionized water, the assumption is that fully formulated conventional coolant
can last far longer than the often-prescribed interval of two years.

On the other hand, says ChevronTexaco's Ulabarro, some users of fully formulated
conventional antifreeze drain and replace coolant every year, but do not test or
add SCA packages between those service intervals, thinking that nothing will go
wrong in that short time. But, depending on the specific formulation of the
antifreeze and on top-up practices, says Ulabarro, critical additives could be
depleted in as little as 1,000 hours, potentially leaving the engine virtually
unprotected for a long time.

In the everyday world, of course, fully formulated conventional and organic-acid
antifreezes are sometimes inadvertently mixed in cooling systems. The primary
concern about a mixed system is that the distinctively different additive
packages in the two formulations will be diluted to the point that neither has
the power to afford adequate protection. You're best off, say the experts, to
pick an antifreeze type, take all practical safeguards to avoid mixing it with
other types, and conscientiously follow the maintenance strategy recommended for
the chosen antifreeze.

Coolant Analysis

Given the changing chemistry of coolants and the increased demand placed on
cooling systems by today's engines, Bryan Debshaw, CEO of Polaris Laboratories,
believes that coolant analysis will become an increasingly important tool in
preventive-maintenance programs. Coolant analysis not only determines coolant
condition, he says, but also identifies other vehicle problems that can show up
in the cooling system. Coolant-analysis programs typically are available in
various levels (and costs), depending on the number of parameters checked.
A primary cause of wet-sleeve damage is cavitation, but other causes are
prevalent: these sleeves have been attacked by 1) stray electrical current going
to ground through the coolant; 2) calcium and magnesium scale that impedes heat
transfer and is caused by water with minerals (the sleeve "blues" at 600F); and
3) chloride (in the water), which "decarbonizes" iron until it is like sand,
says Elizabeth Nelson of Polaris Laboratories

Quick Tip
Using tap water in your vehicle's cooling system can undermine your best efforts
at good maintenance if it creates rust, scale and corrosion. Premixed coolant,
with 50 percent demineralized water, avoids these problems. So does deionized
water. Talk to your local water-conditioner expert about a deionization unit. We
found a local supplier who would install a "mixed bed" unit for around $200,
then switch tanks as needed for $80 or $90. Typical tank life is 1,500 to 2,500
gallons of treated water.



If you use paper test strips to check the condition of fully formulated
conventional antifreeze, make sure the strips are fresh and designed for the
type of coolant being tested. Remember that freeze-point readings may be
unreliable if glycol levels are above 60 percent.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Wet-Sleeve Cavitation

In a wet-sleeve cooling system, antifreeze additives create a barrier between
the engine's sleeves and the small bubbles that form in the coolant next to the
sleeves, the result of pressure differentials. When the normal vibration of the
sleeves causes the bubbles to implode, they do so with great violence and can
create tiny cavities in the surface of unprotected sleeves. Left unchecked, this
"cavitation" process (a leading cause of engine failure) can create holes in the
sleeves and allow coolant to leak into the cylinder. Fully formulated
conventional antifreeze uses nitrite, which coats the sleeves, to protect
against cavitation. Organic-acid-technology antifreeze uses chemicals that plate
sleeves with a thin protective layer, but these formulations also may contain
nitrite.

Illustration adapted from Baldwin Filter graphic.


Conversion Possibilities

Manufacturers of at least three brands of organic-acid-technology antifreeze
have programs for converting cooling systems from fully formulated conventional
coolant to an organic-acid-type coolant, without draining and refilling the
system. Reduced maintenance is cited as the primary benefit of conversion.

ChevronTexaco's Fleet Fix Conversion, Shell's Extended-Life Coolant Conversion,
and Old World Industries' Final Charge Converter can be used to make the
conversion, but the existing coolant must meet specific parameters before
conversion can proceed. (Old World Industries' Final Charge antifreeze is a
non-carboxylate organic-acid-based product that contains no nitrite.)

By contrast, Penray, a maker of antifreeze additives, promotes a "Fill-for-Life"
strategy, which is aimed at converting nitrited-organic-acid-technology coolants
to fully formulated conventional coolant. Penray's conversion strategy employs
its Need-Release Filter, which uses corrosion-sensitive barriers for the timed
release of SCA charges.


Electrical Grounds and Aeration

Maintaining electrical grounds is an essential aspect of cooling-system
maintenance, because stray electrical currents can cause problems in cooling
systems. Regularly check ground connections for the batteries and starter, and
be careful to properly ground any add-on accessories.

On the other hand, aeration in a cooling system can cause problems that are
sometimes blamed on stray currents. Periodically inspect the cooling system for
air leaks from loose clamps, bad hoses and bad pressure cap.--- In
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
>
> It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there is
electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the
problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the
block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this
while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the
fault
> Greg 94ptca
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hinds" wrote:
> >
> > I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New
batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the
problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough
voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a
voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the
voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the
two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5
to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated.
> >
> > Steve Hinds
> > '82 FC
> >
>

[Stephen Birtles]

Did Ron's engine fail again because that is what I read in your
post

Stephen 77fc35

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
>
> Long post with a cut and paste that may shed light on some issues owners often
fail to look at when a minor problem compound the damage. I am not saying
degraded radiator fluid can cause electrical problems, just saying both
'electrical issues' with 'off-balance radiator fluid' (fluid with ability to
pass current) can leave the bus vulnerable to major engine damage. After an
engine failure I always look for the clues that proceeded the event like;
previous work, ;noises, ;performance, ;temps and conditions in the hopes to
avoid future and explain current damage.
>
> Reading the article and listening to RonM's clues might shed light on his
Canadian sleeve failure???????
>
> The Basics of Diesel-Engine Coolant
>
>
>
> September 1, 2005
> By Walt Moore, Senior Editor
>
>
> Elizabeth Nelson, coolant program manager at Polaris Laboratories, a
fluid-analysis company in Indianapolis, Ind., tells a story that would strike
fear into the heart of any fleet manager. A class-8 on-highway truck seemed in
fine condition when it left the West Coast, but at the end of its 6,000-mile
cross-country run, a cylinder sleeve failed and catastrophic engine failure
resulted. According to Nelson, the cause of the disaster was an electrical short
in the truck's starter.
>
> "An electrical short in a vehicle takes the path of least resistance to
ground," says Nelson, "and often that's through the cooling system. In this
instance, the electrical current passing through the coolant so quickly depleted
the nitrite additive in the antifreeze, that the sleeves no longer had
protection against cavitation. When coolant analysis shows a rapid depletion of
nitrite, coupled with an increase in nitrates, it's always a red flag for an
electrical short."
>
> A combustion-gas leak, on the other hand, says Nelson, causes a sharp drop in
pH (usually below 7) and an increase in sulfates. Air leaking into the cooling
system, however, typically results in a lowered pH, she says, (but usually not
below 7.5) and a drop in nitrite level (but not as rapid as with an electrical
problem).
>
> What's in the radiator?
> Although regular coolant analysis is a good way to keep tabs on the health of
a vehicle's coolant system, coolant analysis is not nearly as popular as oil
analysis. For many equipment owners, truth be told, what goes on in their
machine's cooling system is somewhat of a mystery.
>
> "Ask most fleet managers about their lube-maintenance programs, and they'll
talk in detail," says Craig Gullett, brand marketing manager for Old World
Industries, a major antifreeze manufacturer. "Ask about their
coolant-maintenance programs, however, and more often than not, answers become
rather uncertain."
>
> A frequent weak link in coolant maintenance, and the probable cause of many
coolant-related engine problems, says Carmen Ulabarro, coolants market
development specialist for ChevronTexaco, is the lack of understanding about
what coolant is being used in the vehicle — and how to maintain that specific
formulation.
>
> Virtually all heavy-duty antifreeze is roughly 95 percent ethylene glycol and
5 percent water and additives. The stuff that isn't made from ethylene glycol
(only about 1 percent of all antifreeze sold) is made from propylene glycol,
which is less toxic, but also more expensive. "Coolant" is created when glycol
is mixed with various ratios of water. Typical ratios range from 30 to 60
percent glycol.
>
> Heavy-duty antifreeze formulations differ from one another by virtue of the
additive package blended into the ethylene glycol. Additive packages, of course,
all have the same task, namely to fight rust, scale and corrosion — and in
diesel engines, to protect wet cylinder sleeves from cavitation. But the
additive packages among various antifreeze formulations have fundamentally
different chemical fingerprints.
>
> Until maybe 15 years ago, heavy-duty engines typically were filled with
"conventional" antifreeze, identified by the American Society for Testing and
Materials (ASTM) standard D-4985. This antifreeze, however, which is still in
prevalent use today, can't be used in diesel engines without first treating it
with a "supplemental coolant additive" (SCA) that contains nitrite for
protecting wet sleeves. The required initial treatment is an approximate
3-percent concentration of SCA (one pint per four gallons of cooling-system
capacity).
>
> Today, the preferred conventional antifreeze for diesel engines is "fully
formulated," identified as ASTM D-6210 or RP-329 by the Technology & Maintenance
Council (TMC). This antifreeze is sold with an SCA package already blended in,
typically including nitrate to protect iron and steel, tolyltriazole to protect
copper and brass, borate or phosphate to buffer acids (formed as glycol breaks
down), silicate to protect aluminum and nitrite (sometimes accompanied by
molybdate) to form a cavitation-resistant barrier on sleeves.
>
> These additives are depleted as the coolant works and ages, however, and must
be replenished periodically with an SCA package. Especially critical is the
renewal of an adequate nitrite level. But you must be careful here, because too
much nitrite may cause solder corrosion, and excess accumulation of other
additives causes "total dissolved solids" (TDS) to increase, possibly
jeopardizing cooling efficiency and resulting in passage-clogging dropout.
Cautious maintenance guidelines may suggest replacing fully formulated
conventional coolant at two-year intervals to avoid TDS problems.
>
> To simplify maintenance, the antifreeze industry developed "extended-life
coolants" (ELC), which are formulations typically advertised with a service life
of 600,000 miles or 12,000 hours. These formulations, originally at least,
replaced the additive package used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze
with "organic-acid inhibitors," designed to protect metal parts by forming a
thin protective skin against destructive forces in the coolant.
>
> These "organic-acid-technology" (or OAT) antifreezes use the base or
neutralized version of organic (carbon-containing) acids, typically (but not
always) the carboxylate acids of 2-ethyl hexanoic acid (2-EH) and/or sebacic
acid. Most heavy-duty carboxylate formulations, however, also contain some of
the additives used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze, namely nitrite
and molybdate, and sometimes silicate. OAT formulations that include nitrite
sometimes are called nitrited-organic-acid-technology antifreeze, or simply a
NOAT.
>
> According to some antifreeze experts, anytime you add inorganic inhibitors
(like nitrite) to an organic-acid-based formulation, you have created a hybrid,
or a Hybrid OAT, or a HOAT. Others say, though, that a hybrid is technically a
product characterized by the use of non-carboxylate acids, such as benzoate,
from benzoic acid, another organic acid.
>
> Maintenance
> To ChevronTexaco's Ulabarro's point, the start of good coolant maintenance
begins with knowing which antifreeze formulation is in your machine's radiator.
>
> Most NOAT formulations, for example, require the addition of an "extender" at
300,000 miles or 6,000 hours to replenish nitrite, which is used up at a far
slower rate in an extended-life coolant than in a fully formulated conventional.
Important to note here, perhaps, is that European engine manufacturers are
evaluating — maybe even leaning toward — the use of carboxylate-based
extended-life coolants without nitrite.
>
> Don't buy into the philosophy, however, that extended-life coolant needs no
regular maintenance. The experts recommend inspecting it at the vehicle's
regular maintenance intervals to make sure it's clear (no rust), that the color
is right (not mixed with another antifreeze type) and that it has sufficient
freeze/boil protection, best determined by using a refractometer.
>
> Maintenance guidelines for cooling systems with fully formulated conventional
antifreeze typically include periodic testing of SCA levels and appropriate
adjustment, as well as periodic draining, flushing and refilling the system to
avoid, as already noted, an excess of dissolved solids.
>
> You can test the additive concentration of fully formulated conventional
coolant by supplying samples to a fluids-analysis laboratory. Or, you can do the
testing yourself by using paper test strips, which are chemically sensitive and
change color to indicate freeze/boil point (glycol content), nitrite (or
nitrite/molybdate) levels and, in some instances, pH.
>
> When the addition of an SCA is indicated, keep in mind that two major types of
SCA are available, one with a nitrite/borate formulation, the other with a
nitrite/molybdate/phosphate formulation. It's probably best not to mix them, and
it's best to use a test strip designed for the specific formulation. Those in
the know say to be careful about buying bargain-priced SCA formulations, which
may be inferior. Look for a stated compliance with an ASTM standard on the
package, likely D-5752, to ensure that you're buying a quality product.
>
> Some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, however, employ a
coolant filter charged with an SCA package. This filter/additive assembly is
designed to release metered amounts of additives over time and, thus, to
maintain optimum levels. As long as testing indicates proper additive levels,
and provided that top-up is done with a 50/50 mix of the correct antifreeze and
deionized water, the assumption is that fully formulated conventional coolant
can last far longer than the often-prescribed interval of two years.
>
> On the other hand, says ChevronTexaco's Ulabarro, some users of fully
formulated conventional antifreeze drain and replace coolant every year, but do
not test or add SCA packages between those service intervals, thinking that
nothing will go wrong in that short time. But, depending on the specific
formulation of the antifreeze and on top-up practices, says Ulabarro, critical
additives could be depleted in as little as 1,000 hours, potentially leaving the
engine virtually unprotected for a long time.
>
> In the everyday world, of course, fully formulated conventional and
organic-acid antifreezes are sometimes inadvertently mixed in cooling systems.
The primary concern about a mixed system is that the distinctively different
additive packages in the two formulations will be diluted to the point that
neither has the power to afford adequate protection. You're best off, say the
experts, to pick an antifreeze type, take all practical safeguards to avoid
mixing it with other types, and conscientiously follow the maintenance strategy
recommended for the chosen antifreeze.
>
> Coolant Analysis
>
> Given the changing chemistry of coolants and the increased demand placed on
cooling systems by today's engines, Bryan Debshaw, CEO of Polaris Laboratories,
believes that coolant analysis will become an increasingly important tool in
preventive-maintenance programs. Coolant analysis not only determines coolant
condition, he says, but also identifies other vehicle problems that can show up
in the cooling system. Coolant-analysis programs typically are available in
various levels (and costs), depending on the number of parameters checked.
> A primary cause of wet-sleeve damage is cavitation, but other causes are
prevalent: these sleeves have been attacked by 1) stray electrical current going
to ground through the coolant; 2) calcium and magnesium scale that impedes heat
transfer and is caused by water with minerals (the sleeve "blues" at 600F); and
3) chloride (in the water), which "decarbonizes" iron until it is like sand,
says Elizabeth Nelson of Polaris Laboratories
>
> Quick Tip
> Using tap water in your vehicle's cooling system can undermine your best
efforts at good maintenance if it creates rust, scale and corrosion. Premixed
coolant, with 50 percent demineralized water, avoids these problems. So does
deionized water. Talk to your local water-conditioner expert about a
deionization unit. We found a local supplier who would install a "mixed bed"
unit for around $200, then switch tanks as needed for $80 or $90. Typical tank
life is 1,500 to 2,500 gallons of treated water.
>
>
>
> If you use paper test strips to check the condition of fully formulated
conventional antifreeze, make sure the strips are fresh and designed for the
type of coolant being tested. Remember that freeze-point readings may be
unreliable if glycol levels are above 60 percent.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
>
> Wet-Sleeve Cavitation
>
> In a wet-sleeve cooling system, antifreeze additives create a barrier between
the engine's sleeves and the small bubbles that form in the coolant next to the
sleeves, the result of pressure differentials. When the normal vibration of the
sleeves causes the bubbles to implode, they do so with great violence and can
create tiny cavities in the surface of unprotected sleeves. Left unchecked, this
"cavitation" process (a leading cause of engine failure) can create holes in the
sleeves and allow coolant to leak into the cylinder. Fully formulated
conventional antifreeze uses nitrite, which coats the sleeves, to protect
against cavitation. Organic-acid-technology antifreeze uses chemicals that plate
sleeves with a thin protective layer, but these formulations also may contain
nitrite.
>
> Illustration adapted from Baldwin Filter graphic.
>
>
> Conversion Possibilities
>
> Manufacturers of at least three brands of organic-acid-technology antifreeze
have programs for converting cooling systems from fully formulated conventional
coolant to an organic-acid-type coolant, without draining and refilling the
system. Reduced maintenance is cited as the primary benefit of conversion.
>
> ChevronTexaco's Fleet Fix Conversion, Shell's Extended-Life Coolant
Conversion, and Old World Industries' Final Charge Converter can be used to make
the conversion, but the existing coolant must meet specific parameters before
conversion can proceed. (Old World Industries' Final Charge antifreeze is a
non-carboxylate organic-acid-based product that contains no nitrite.)
>
> By contrast, Penray, a maker of antifreeze additives, promotes a
"Fill-for-Life" strategy, which is aimed at converting
nitrited-organic-acid-technology coolants to fully formulated conventional
coolant. Penray's conversion strategy employs its Need-Release Filter, which
uses corrosion-sensitive barriers for the timed release of SCA charges.
>
>
> Electrical Grounds and Aeration
>
> Maintaining electrical grounds is an essential aspect of cooling-system
maintenance, because stray electrical currents can cause problems in cooling
systems. Regularly check ground connections for the batteries and starter, and
be careful to properly ground any add-on accessories.
>
> On the other hand, aeration in a cooling system can cause problems that are
sometimes blamed on stray currents. Periodically inspect the cooling system for
air leaks from loose clamps, bad hoses and bad pressure cap.--- In
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote:
> >
> > It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there
is electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the
problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the
block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this
while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the
fault
> > Greg 94ptca
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hinds" wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New
batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the
problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough
voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a
voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the
voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the
two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5
to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Steve Hinds
> > > '82 FC
> > >
> >
>

[Gregory OConnor]

No I believe he had an electrical short burn up the wires and cause major other
issues this time. I wonder if the short was there prior to engine failure and a
contributing cause of the Canada failure incidence.
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
wrote:
>
> Did Ron's engine fail again because that is what I read in your
> post
>
> Stephen 77fc35
>

[Ernie Ekberg]

Ron's final problem was electrical. I believe he lost his engine up north from coolant? Ernie Ekberg 83PT40 Wanderlodge Weatherford, Tx 817-475-3991 http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/erni...gandrepair --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Stephen Birtles wrote: From: Stephen Birtles Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Continuing Electrical Problems To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 10:51 AM Did Ron's engine fail again because that is what I read in your post Stephen 77fc35 --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote: > > Long post with a cut and paste that may shed light on some issues owners often fail to look at when a minor problem compound the damage. I am not saying degraded radiator fluid can cause electrical problems, just saying both 'electrical issues' with 'off-balance radiator fluid' (fluid with ability to pass current) can leave the bus vulnerable to major engine damage. After an engine failure I always look for the clues that proceeded the event like; previous work, ;noises, ;performance, ;temps and conditions in the hopes to avoid future and explain current damage. > > Reading the article and listening to RonM's clues might shed light on his Canadian sleeve failure????? ?? > > The Basics of Diesel-Engine Coolant > > > > September 1, 2005 > By Walt Moore, Senior Editor > > > Elizabeth Nelson, coolant program manager at Polaris Laboratories, a fluid-analysis company in Indianapolis, Ind., tells a story that would strike fear into the heart of any fleet manager. A class-8 on-highway truck seemed in fine condition when it left the West Coast, but at the end of its 6,000-mile cross-country run, a cylinder sleeve failed and catastrophic engine failure resulted. According to Nelson, the cause of the disaster was an electrical short in the truck's starter. > > "An electrical short in a vehicle takes the path of least resistance to ground," says Nelson, "and often that's through the cooling system. In this instance, the electrical current passing through the coolant so quickly depleted the nitrite additive in the antifreeze, that the sleeves no longer had protection against cavitation. When coolant analysis shows a rapid depletion of nitrite, coupled with an increase in nitrates, it's always a red flag for an electrical short." > > A combustion-gas leak, on the other hand, says Nelson, causes a sharp drop in pH (usually below 7) and an increase in sulfates. Air leaking into the cooling system, however, typically results in a lowered pH, she says, (but usually not below 7.5) and a drop in nitrite level (but not as rapid as with an electrical problem). > > What's in the radiator? > Although regular coolant analysis is a good way to keep tabs on the health of a vehicle's coolant system, coolant analysis is not nearly as popular as oil analysis. For many equipment owners, truth be told, what goes on in their machine's cooling system is somewhat of a mystery. > > "Ask most fleet managers about their lube-maintenance programs, and they'll talk in detail," says Craig Gullett, brand marketing manager for Old World Industries, a major antifreeze manufacturer. "Ask about their coolant-maintenance programs, however, and more often than not, answers become rather uncertain." > > A frequent weak link in coolant maintenance, and the probable cause of many coolant-related engine problems, says Carmen Ulabarro, coolants market development specialist for ChevronTexaco, is the lack of understanding about what coolant is being used in the vehicle — and how to maintain that specific formulation. > > Virtually all heavy-duty antifreeze is roughly 95 percent ethylene glycol and 5 percent water and additives. The stuff that isn't made from ethylene glycol (only about 1 percent of all antifreeze sold) is made from propylene glycol, which is less toxic, but also more expensive. "Coolant" is created when glycol is mixed with various ratios of water. Typical ratios range from 30 to 60 percent glycol. > > Heavy-duty antifreeze formulations differ from one another by virtue of the additive package blended into the ethylene glycol. Additive packages, of course, all have the same task, namely to fight rust, scale and corrosion — and in diesel engines, to protect wet cylinder sleeves from cavitation. But the additive packages among various antifreeze formulations have fundamentally different chemical fingerprints. > > Until maybe 15 years ago, heavy-duty engines typically were filled with "conventional" antifreeze, identified by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) standard D-4985. This antifreeze, however, which is still in prevalent use today, can't be used in diesel engines without first treating it with a "supplemental coolant additive" (SCA) that contains nitrite for protecting wet sleeves. The required initial treatment is an approximate 3-percent concentration of SCA (one pint per four gallons of cooling-system capacity). > > Today, the preferred conventional antifreeze for diesel engines is "fully formulated," identified as ASTM D-6210 or RP-329 by the Technology & Maintenance Council (TMC). This antifreeze is sold with an SCA package already blended in, typically including nitrate to protect iron and steel, tolyltriazole to protect copper and brass, borate or phosphate to buffer acids (formed as glycol breaks down), silicate to protect aluminum and nitrite (sometimes accompanied by molybdate) to form a cavitation-resistan t barrier on sleeves. > > These additives are depleted as the coolant works and ages, however, and must be replenished periodically with an SCA package. Especially critical is the renewal of an adequate nitrite level. But you must be careful here, because too much nitrite may cause solder corrosion, and excess accumulation of other additives causes "total dissolved solids" (TDS) to increase, possibly jeopardizing cooling efficiency and resulting in passage-clogging dropout. Cautious maintenance guidelines may suggest replacing fully formulated conventional coolant at two-year intervals to avoid TDS problems. > > To simplify maintenance, the antifreeze industry developed "extended-life coolants" (ELC), which are formulations typically advertised with a service life of 600,000 miles or 12,000 hours. These formulations, originally at least, replaced the additive package used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze with "organic-acid inhibitors," designed to protect metal parts by forming a thin protective skin against destructive forces in the coolant. > > These "organic-acid- technology" (or OAT) antifreezes use the base or neutralized version of organic (carbon-containing) acids, typically (but not always) the carboxylate acids of 2-ethyl hexanoic acid (2-EH) and/or sebacic acid. Most heavy-duty carboxylate formulations, however, also contain some of the additives used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze, namely nitrite and molybdate, and sometimes silicate. OAT formulations that include nitrite sometimes are called nitrited-organic- acid-technology antifreeze, or simply a NOAT. > > According to some antifreeze experts, anytime you add inorganic inhibitors (like nitrite) to an organic-acid- based formulation, you have created a hybrid, or a Hybrid OAT, or a HOAT. Others say, though, that a hybrid is technically a product characterized by the use of non-carboxylate acids, such as benzoate, from benzoic acid, another organic acid. > > Maintenance > To ChevronTexaco' s Ulabarro's point, the start of good coolant maintenance begins with knowing which antifreeze formulation is in your machine's radiator. > > Most NOAT formulations, for example, require the addition of an "extender" at 300,000 miles or 6,000 hours to replenish nitrite, which is used up at a far slower rate in an extended-life coolant than in a fully formulated conventional. Important to note here, perhaps, is that European engine manufacturers are evaluating — maybe even leaning toward — the use of carboxylate- based extended-life coolants without nitrite. > > Don't buy into the philosophy, however, that extended-life coolant needs no regular maintenance. The experts recommend inspecting it at the vehicle's regular maintenance intervals to make sure it's clear (no rust), that the color is right (not mixed with another antifreeze type) and that it has sufficient freeze/boil protection, best determined by using a refractometer. > > Maintenance guidelines for cooling systems with fully formulated conventional antifreeze typically include periodic testing of SCA levels and appropriate adjustment, as well as periodic draining, flushing and refilling the system to avoid, as already noted, an excess of dissolved solids. > > You can test the additive concentration of fully formulated conventional coolant by supplying samples to a fluids-analysis laboratory. Or, you can do the testing yourself by using paper test strips, which are chemically sensitive and change color to indicate freeze/boil point (glycol content), nitrite (or nitrite/molybdate) levels and, in some instances, pH. > > When the addition of an SCA is indicated, keep in mind that two major types of SCA are available, one with a nitrite/borate formulation, the other with a nitrite/molybdate/ phosphate formulation. It's probably best not to mix them, and it's best to use a test strip designed for the specific formulation. Those in the know say to be careful about buying bargain-priced SCA formulations, which may be inferior. Look for a stated compliance with an ASTM standard on the package, likely D-5752, to ensure that you're buying a quality product. > > Some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, however, employ a coolant filter charged with an SCA package. This filter/additive assembly is designed to release metered amounts of additives over time and, thus, to maintain optimum levels. As long as testing indicates proper additive levels, and provided that top-up is done with a 50/50 mix of the correct antifreeze and deionized water, the assumption is that fully formulated conventional coolant can last far longer than the often-prescribed interval of two years. > > On the other hand, says ChevronTexaco' s Ulabarro, some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze drain and replace coolant every year, but do not test or add SCA packages between those service intervals, thinking that nothing will go wrong in that short time. But, depending on the specific formulation of the antifreeze and on top-up practices, says Ulabarro, critical additives could be depleted in as little as 1,000 hours, potentially leaving the engine virtually unprotected for a long time. > > In the everyday world, of course, fully formulated conventional and organic-acid antifreezes are sometimes inadvertently mixed in cooling systems. The primary concern about a mixed system is that the distinctively different additive packages in the two formulations will be diluted to the point that neither has the power to afford adequate protection. You're best off, say the experts, to pick an antifreeze type, take all practical safeguards to avoid mixing it with other types, and conscientiously follow the maintenance strategy recommended for the chosen antifreeze. > > Coolant Analysis > > Given the changing chemistry of coolants and the increased demand placed on cooling systems by today's engines, Bryan Debshaw, CEO of Polaris Laboratories, believes that coolant analysis will become an increasingly important tool in preventive-maintena nce programs. Coolant analysis not only determines coolant condition, he says, but also identifies other vehicle problems that can show up in the cooling system. Coolant-analysis programs typically are available in various levels (and costs), depending on the number of parameters checked. > A primary cause of wet-sleeve damage is cavitation, but other causes are prevalent: these sleeves have been attacked by 1) stray electrical current going to ground through the coolant; 2) calcium and magnesium scale that impedes heat transfer and is caused by water with minerals (the sleeve "blues" at 600F); and 3) chloride (in the water), which "decarbonizes" iron until it is like sand, says Elizabeth Nelson of Polaris Laboratories > > Quick Tip > Using tap water in your vehicle's cooling system can undermine your best efforts at good maintenance if it creates rust, scale and corrosion. Premixed coolant, with 50 percent demineralized water, avoids these problems. So does deionized water. Talk to your local water-conditioner expert about a deionization unit. We found a local supplier who would install a "mixed bed" unit for around $200, then switch tanks as needed for $80 or $90. Typical tank life is 1,500 to 2,500 gallons of treated water. > > > > If you use paper test strips to check the condition of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, make sure the strips are fresh and designed for the type of coolant being tested. Remember that freeze-point readings may be unreliable if glycol levels are above 60 percent. > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > > Wet-Sleeve Cavitation > > In a wet-sleeve cooling system, antifreeze additives create a barrier between the engine's sleeves and the small bubbles that form in the coolant next to the sleeves, the result of pressure differentials. When the normal vibration of the sleeves causes the bubbles to implode, they do so with great violence and can create tiny cavities in the surface of unprotected sleeves. Left unchecked, this "cavitation" process (a leading cause of engine failure) can create holes in the sleeves and allow coolant to leak into the cylinder. Fully formulated conventional antifreeze uses nitrite, which coats the sleeves, to protect against cavitation. Organic-acid- technology antifreeze uses chemicals that plate sleeves with a thin protective layer, but these formulations also may contain nitrite. > > Illustration adapted from Baldwin Filter graphic. > > > Conversion Possibilities > > Manufacturers of at least three brands of organic-acid- technology antifreeze have programs for converting cooling systems from fully formulated conventional coolant to an organic-acid- type coolant, without draining and refilling the system. Reduced maintenance is cited as the primary benefit of conversion. > > ChevronTexaco' s Fleet Fix Conversion, Shell's Extended-Life Coolant Conversion, and Old World Industries' Final Charge Converter can be used to make the conversion, but the existing coolant must meet specific parameters before conversion can proceed. (Old World Industries' Final Charge antifreeze is a non-carboxylate organic-acid- based product that contains no nitrite.) > > By contrast, Penray, a maker of antifreeze additives, promotes a "Fill-for-Life" strategy, which is aimed at converting nitrited-organic- acid-technology coolants to fully formulated conventional coolant. Penray's conversion strategy employs its Need-Release Filter, which uses corrosion-sensitive barriers for the timed release of SCA charges. > > > Electrical Grounds and Aeration > > Maintaining electrical grounds is an essential aspect of cooling-system maintenance, because stray electrical currents can cause problems in cooling systems. Regularly check ground connections for the batteries and starter, and be careful to properly ground any add-on accessories. > > On the other hand, aeration in a cooling system can cause problems that are sometimes blamed on stray currents. Periodically inspect the cooling system for air leaks from loose clamps, bad hoses and bad pressure cap.--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote: > > > > It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there is electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the fault > > Greg 94ptca > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Steve Hinds" wrote: > > > > > > I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5 to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated. > > > > > > Steve Hinds > > > '82 FC > > > > > >

[GARY MINKER]

Everyone learned gets an opinion and I buy in to everything here EXCCEPT the shorted starter garbage. Starters are dead unless cranking. The block flows current constantly from the alternator and raw galvanics. Nope to the electrical bit Gary --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Gregory OConnor wrote: From: Gregory OConnor Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Continuing Electrical Problems To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 11:33 AM Long post with a cut and paste that may shed light on some issues owners often fail to look at when a minor problem compound the damage. I am not saying degraded radiator fluid can cause electrical problems, just saying both 'electrical issues' with 'off-balance radiator fluid' (fluid with ability to pass current) can leave the bus vulnerable to major engine damage. After an engine failure I always look for the clues that proceeded the event like; previous work, ;noises, ;performance, ;temps and conditions in the hopes to avoid future and explain current damage. Reading the article and listening to RonM's clues might shed light on his Canadian sleeve failure????? ?? The Basics of Diesel-Engine Coolant September 1, 2005 By Walt Moore, Senior Editor Elizabeth Nelson, coolant program manager at Polaris Laboratories, a fluid-analysis company in Indianapolis, Ind., tells a story that would strike fear into the heart of any fleet manager. A class-8 on-highway truck seemed in fine condition when it left the West Coast, but at the end of its 6,000-mile cross-country run, a cylinder sleeve failed and catastrophic engine failure resulted. According to Nelson, the cause of the disaster was an electrical short in the truck's starter. "An electrical short in a vehicle takes the path of least resistance to ground," says Nelson, "and often that's through the cooling system. In this instance, the electrical current passing through the coolant so quickly depleted the nitrite additive in the antifreeze, that the sleeves no longer had protection against cavitation. When coolant analysis shows a rapid depletion of nitrite, coupled with an increase in nitrates, it's always a red flag for an electrical short." A combustion-gas leak, on the other hand, says Nelson, causes a sharp drop in pH (usually below 7) and an increase in sulfates. Air leaking into the cooling system, however, typically results in a lowered pH, she says, (but usually not below 7.5) and a drop in nitrite level (but not as rapid as with an electrical problem). What's in the radiator? Although regular coolant analysis is a good way to keep tabs on the health of a vehicle's coolant system, coolant analysis is not nearly as popular as oil analysis. For many equipment owners, truth be told, what goes on in their machine's cooling system is somewhat of a mystery. "Ask most fleet managers about their lube-maintenance programs, and they'll talk in detail," says Craig Gullett, brand marketing manager for Old World Industries, a major antifreeze manufacturer. "Ask about their coolant-maintenance programs, however, and more often than not, answers become rather uncertain." A frequent weak link in coolant maintenance, and the probable cause of many coolant-related engine problems, says Carmen Ulabarro, coolants market development specialist for ChevronTexaco, is the lack of understanding about what coolant is being used in the vehicle — and how to maintain that specific formulation. Virtually all heavy-duty antifreeze is roughly 95 percent ethylene glycol and 5 percent water and additives. The stuff that isn't made from ethylene glycol (only about 1 percent of all antifreeze sold) is made from propylene glycol, which is less toxic, but also more expensive. "Coolant" is created when glycol is mixed with various ratios of water. Typical ratios range from 30 to 60 percent glycol. Heavy-duty antifreeze formulations differ from one another by virtue of the additive package blended into the ethylene glycol. Additive packages, of course, all have the same task, namely to fight rust, scale and corrosion — and in diesel engines, to protect wet cylinder sleeves from cavitation. But the additive packages among various antifreeze formulations have fundamentally different chemical fingerprints. Until maybe 15 years ago, heavy-duty engines typically were filled with "conventional" antifreeze, identified by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) standard D-4985. This antifreeze, however, which is still in prevalent use today, can't be used in diesel engines without first treating it with a "supplemental coolant additive" (SCA) that contains nitrite for protecting wet sleeves. The required initial treatment is an approximate 3-percent concentration of SCA (one pint per four gallons of cooling-system capacity). Today, the preferred conventional antifreeze for diesel engines is "fully formulated," identified as ASTM D-6210 or RP-329 by the Technology & Maintenance Council (TMC). This antifreeze is sold with an SCA package already blended in, typically including nitrate to protect iron and steel, tolyltriazole to protect copper and brass, borate or phosphate to buffer acids (formed as glycol breaks down), silicate to protect aluminum and nitrite (sometimes accompanied by molybdate) to form a cavitation-resistan t barrier on sleeves. These additives are depleted as the coolant works and ages, however, and must be replenished periodically with an SCA package. Especially critical is the renewal of an adequate nitrite level. But you must be careful here, because too much nitrite may cause solder corrosion, and excess accumulation of other additives causes "total dissolved solids" (TDS) to increase, possibly jeopardizing cooling efficiency and resulting in passage-clogging dropout. Cautious maintenance guidelines may suggest replacing fully formulated conventional coolant at two-year intervals to avoid TDS problems. To simplify maintenance, the antifreeze industry developed "extended-life coolants" (ELC), which are formulations typically advertised with a service life of 600,000 miles or 12,000 hours. These formulations, originally at least, replaced the additive package used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze with "organic-acid inhibitors," designed to protect metal parts by forming a thin protective skin against destructive forces in the coolant. These "organic-acid- technology" (or OAT) antifreezes use the base or neutralized version of organic (carbon-containing) acids, typically (but not always) the carboxylate acids of 2-ethyl hexanoic acid (2-EH) and/or sebacic acid. Most heavy-duty carboxylate formulations, however, also contain some of the additives used in fully formulated conventional antifreeze, namely nitrite and molybdate, and sometimes silicate. OAT formulations that include nitrite sometimes are called nitrited-organic- acid-technology antifreeze, or simply a NOAT. According to some antifreeze experts, anytime you add inorganic inhibitors (like nitrite) to an organic-acid- based formulation, you have created a hybrid, or a Hybrid OAT, or a HOAT. Others say, though, that a hybrid is technically a product characterized by the use of non-carboxylate acids, such as benzoate, from benzoic acid, another organic acid. Maintenance To ChevronTexaco' s Ulabarro's point, the start of good coolant maintenance begins with knowing which antifreeze formulation is in your machine's radiator. Most NOAT formulations, for example, require the addition of an "extender" at 300,000 miles or 6,000 hours to replenish nitrite, which is used up at a far slower rate in an extended-life coolant than in a fully formulated conventional. Important to note here, perhaps, is that European engine manufacturers are evaluating — maybe even leaning toward — the use of carboxylate- based extended-life coolants without nitrite. Don't buy into the philosophy, however, that extended-life coolant needs no regular maintenance. The experts recommend inspecting it at the vehicle's regular maintenance intervals to make sure it's clear (no rust), that the color is right (not mixed with another antifreeze type) and that it has sufficient freeze/boil protection, best determined by using a refractometer. Maintenance guidelines for cooling systems with fully formulated conventional antifreeze typically include periodic testing of SCA levels and appropriate adjustment, as well as periodic draining, flushing and refilling the system to avoid, as already noted, an excess of dissolved solids. You can test the additive concentration of fully formulated conventional coolant by supplying samples to a fluids-analysis laboratory. Or, you can do the testing yourself by using paper test strips, which are chemically sensitive and change color to indicate freeze/boil point (glycol content), nitrite (or nitrite/molybdate) levels and, in some instances, pH. When the addition of an SCA is indicated, keep in mind that two major types of SCA are available, one with a nitrite/borate formulation, the other with a nitrite/molybdate/ phosphate formulation. It's probably best not to mix them, and it's best to use a test strip designed for the specific formulation. Those in the know say to be careful about buying bargain-priced SCA formulations, which may be inferior. Look for a stated compliance with an ASTM standard on the package, likely D-5752, to ensure that you're buying a quality product. Some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, however, employ a coolant filter charged with an SCA package. This filter/additive assembly is designed to release metered amounts of additives over time and, thus, to maintain optimum levels. As long as testing indicates proper additive levels, and provided that top-up is done with a 50/50 mix of the correct antifreeze and deionized water, the assumption is that fully formulated conventional coolant can last far longer than the often-prescribed interval of two years. On the other hand, says ChevronTexaco' s Ulabarro, some users of fully formulated conventional antifreeze drain and replace coolant every year, but do not test or add SCA packages between those service intervals, thinking that nothing will go wrong in that short time. But, depending on the specific formulation of the antifreeze and on top-up practices, says Ulabarro, critical additives could be depleted in as little as 1,000 hours, potentially leaving the engine virtually unprotected for a long time. In the everyday world, of course, fully formulated conventional and organic-acid antifreezes are sometimes inadvertently mixed in cooling systems. The primary concern about a mixed system is that the distinctively different additive packages in the two formulations will be diluted to the point that neither has the power to afford adequate protection. You're best off, say the experts, to pick an antifreeze type, take all practical safeguards to avoid mixing it with other types, and conscientiously follow the maintenance strategy recommended for the chosen antifreeze. Coolant Analysis Given the changing chemistry of coolants and the increased demand placed on cooling systems by today's engines, Bryan Debshaw, CEO of Polaris Laboratories, believes that coolant analysis will become an increasingly important tool in preventive-maintena nce programs. Coolant analysis not only determines coolant condition, he says, but also identifies other vehicle problems that can show up in the cooling system. Coolant-analysis programs typically are available in various levels (and costs), depending on the number of parameters checked. A primary cause of wet-sleeve damage is cavitation, but other causes are prevalent: these sleeves have been attacked by 1) stray electrical current going to ground through the coolant; 2) calcium and magnesium scale that impedes heat transfer and is caused by water with minerals (the sleeve "blues" at 600F); and 3) chloride (in the water), which "decarbonizes" iron until it is like sand, says Elizabeth Nelson of Polaris Laboratories Quick Tip Using tap water in your vehicle's cooling system can undermine your best efforts at good maintenance if it creates rust, scale and corrosion. Premixed coolant, with 50 percent demineralized water, avoids these problems. So does deionized water. Talk to your local water-conditioner expert about a deionization unit. We found a local supplier who would install a "mixed bed" unit for around $200, then switch tanks as needed for $80 or $90. Typical tank life is 1,500 to 2,500 gallons of treated water. If you use paper test strips to check the condition of fully formulated conventional antifreeze, make sure the strips are fresh and designed for the type of coolant being tested. Remember that freeze-point readings may be unreliable if glycol levels are above 60 percent. . . . . . . . Wet-Sleeve Cavitation In a wet-sleeve cooling system, antifreeze additives create a barrier between the engine's sleeves and the small bubbles that form in the coolant next to the sleeves, the result of pressure differentials. When the normal vibration of the sleeves causes the bubbles to implode, they do so with great violence and can create tiny cavities in the surface of unprotected sleeves. Left unchecked, this "cavitation" process (a leading cause of engine failure) can create holes in the sleeves and allow coolant to leak into the cylinder. Fully formulated conventional antifreeze uses nitrite, which coats the sleeves, to protect against cavitation. Organic-acid- technology antifreeze uses chemicals that plate sleeves with a thin protective layer, but these formulations also may contain nitrite. Illustration adapted from Baldwin Filter graphic. Conversion Possibilities Manufacturers of at least three brands of organic-acid- technology antifreeze have programs for converting cooling systems from fully formulated conventional coolant to an organic-acid- type coolant, without draining and refilling the system. Reduced maintenance is cited as the primary benefit of conversion. ChevronTexaco' s Fleet Fix Conversion, Shell's Extended-Life Coolant Conversion, and Old World Industries' Final Charge Converter can be used to make the conversion, but the existing coolant must meet specific parameters before conversion can proceed. (Old World Industries' Final Charge antifreeze is a non-carboxylate organic-acid- based product that contains no nitrite.) By contrast, Penray, a maker of antifreeze additives, promotes a "Fill-for-Life" strategy, which is aimed at converting nitrited-organic- acid-technology coolants to fully formulated conventional coolant. Penray's conversion strategy employs its Need-Release Filter, which uses corrosion-sensitive barriers for the timed release of SCA charges. Electrical Grounds and Aeration Maintaining electrical grounds is an essential aspect of cooling-system maintenance, because stray electrical currents can cause problems in cooling systems. Regularly check ground connections for the batteries and starter, and be careful to properly ground any add-on accessories. On the other hand, aeration in a cooling system can cause problems that are sometimes blamed on stray currents. Periodically inspect the cooling system for air leaks from loose clamps, bad hoses and bad pressure cap.--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Gregory OConnor" wrote: > > It is important to keep a check on your radiator fluid condition when there is electrical problems. more so in a wet sleeve like a 8v92. as far as the problem goes one idea is to disable a block of fuses at a time and find the block that doesnt show the pulse. One other thing to do is see if it does this while the engine is not on but key is on. then a bunch of conditions to clue the fault > Greg 94ptca > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Steve Hinds" wrote: > > > > I have been having electrical problems for a bit over a year now. New batteries and a trip to Trailercraft to track things down didn't fix the problem. I found out that the converter/charger was not producing enough voltage (10.6) and replaced it with a new smart charter. I also bought a voltage meter which shows current voltage being produced. While driving, the voltage has been surging from around 12.5 to 13.9 volts, cycling between the two. As this happens, the tachometer drops, lights pulse. Typical cycle is 5 to 7 seconds. Any ideas for chasing down the problem will be appreciated. > > > > Steve Hinds > > '82 FC > > >