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New to Bluebird
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New to Bluebird
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12-27-2010, 17:19
Post: #1
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New to Bluebird
I currently have Hawkins that is powered by a 3208T, but am considering a
different coach. I've narrowed my search to tow brands, Bluebird and Foretravel. Today, I looked at a 1995, 40' BB powered by a 8V92. The coach could be had for approximately $70,000. As I am not familiar with Detroit, how reliable is this engine? Any things that I need to be on the lookout for on Bluebirds? What kind of mileage would be expected from such a coach? The dealer told me 8 1/2 to 10, , but I find that hard to believe. My Hawkins gets 8mpg towing or solo. Some of the things I found very nice in the BB, were 1) Roof mounted generator. 2) Exhaust on top of coach. 3) The rock solid feeling the coach has while walking around in it. Thanks for all advise. |
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12-27-2010, 18:47
Post: #2
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New to Bluebird
Welcome to the forum. Please review the front page rules for signing posts.
As to your questions: The Bluebird is a fabulous coach that will outlive most of us. The Detroit 8V92 is a solid engine, assuming good maintenance. MPG on a 40 foot steel body coach with 8V is more in the 5 to 5.5 range. Roof mounted genset? Huh? No such thing. Genset is on tray under the nose. It is a diesel powered engine genset. Not roof mountable. Mike Bulriss 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan" Current location South Padre Island --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "lajollacricket" wrote: > > I currently have Hawkins that is powered by a 3208T, but am considering a different coach. I've narrowed my search to tow brands, Bluebird and Foretravel. Today, I looked at a 1995, 40' BB powered by a 8V92. The coach could be had for approximately $70,000. As I am not familiar with Detroit, how reliable is this engine? Any things that I need to be on the lookout for on Bluebirds? What kind of mileage would be expected from such a coach? The dealer told me 8 1/2 to 10, , but I find that hard to believe. My Hawkins gets 8mpg towing or solo. Some of the things I found very nice in the BB, were 1) Roof mounted generator. 2) Exhaust on top of coach. 3) The rock solid feeling the coach has while walking around in it. Thanks for all advise. > |
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12-28-2010, 07:11
Post: #3
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New to Bluebird
I have an 8v92 in a Bluebird. Unfortunately it is an obsolete engine. There are less and less mechanics who are familiar with them. It is a 2 stroke engine that uses rubber o rings on the cylinders and over time the o rings will fail and an engine rebuild is required. An inframe 8v92 rebuild can cost 20K plus. It uses an engine driven air compressor which is cooled by engine coolant delivered by two hoses. Over time the hoses can become brittle and if not replaced can fail requiring again an engine rebuild...20K plus. Bluebird later went to a Series 60 engine which is a current production engine and familiar to most Detroit mechanics. The 8v92 requires straight 40 weight oil. Some owners do not know this and use a multigrade oil. Detroit specifically warns agains using multigrade in the 8v92 unless it is in extremely cold weather and even then for only a short period of time. I may catch some flak for 8v92 loyalists but I believe everything I said is true.
Dan
88PT38
Jackson, MS
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12-28-2010, 08:25
Post: #4
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New to Bluebird
As another 8V92 owner I agree generally with what you say. My comments, though,
would be somewhat more positive. The air compressor hose failure issue is a definite reality, and I did not rest easy until I had them changed. The point, though, is that I had them changed. While it is true that many diesel mechanics do not know much about 2-strokes, there remain many who do. Inquiries in the forums can usually turn up a good recommendation in any extended area. I've used several, including 8V92 Wanderlodge owner Clyde Schumann at Seguin Diesel in Texas. The series 60 is a great engine, but so is the 8V92. Detroit didn't stop making the 2-strokes because they wanted to - they simply had to because there was no way to bring them into compliance with changing emission rules. I know there are some 8V92 owners who get 6MPG, but mine at 5.3 is more typical. Don Bradner 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1 On 12/28/2010 at 1:11 PM Dan wrote: >I have an 8v92 in a Bluebird. Unfortunately it is an obsolete engine. >There are less and less mechanics who are familiar with them. It is a 2 >stroke engine that uses rubber o rings on the cylinders and over time the >o rings will fail and an engine rebuild is required. An inframe 8v92 >rebuild can cost 20K plus. It uses an engine driven air compressor which >is cooled by engine coolant delivered by two hoses. Over time the hoses >can become brittle and if not replaced can fail requiring again an engine >rebuild...20K plus. Bluebird later went to a Series 60 engine which is a >current production engine and familiar to most Detroit mechanics. The >8v92 requires straight 40 weight oil. Some owners do not know this and >use a multigrade oil. Detroit specifically warns agains using multigrade >in the 8v92 unless it is in extremely cold weather and even then for only >a short period of time. I may catch some flak for 8v92 loyalists but I >believe everything I said is true. >Dan >88PT38 >Jackson, MS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lajollacricket > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 11:19 PM > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] New to Bluebird > > > > I currently have Hawkins that is powered by a 3208T, but am considering >a different coach. I've narrowed my search to tow brands, Bluebird and >Foretravel. Today, I looked at a 1995, 40' BB powered by a 8V92. The coach >could be had for approximately $70,000. As I am not familiar with Detroit, >how reliable is this engine? Any things that I need to be on the lookout >for on Bluebirds? What kind of mileage would be expected from such a >coach? The dealer told me 8 1/2 to 10, , but I find that hard to believe. >My Hawkins gets 8mpg towing or solo. Some of the things I found very nice >in the BB, were 1) Roof mounted generator. 2) Exhaust on top of coach. 3) >The rock solid feeling the coach has while walking around in it. Thanks >for all advise. |
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12-28-2010, 09:26
Post: #5
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New to Bluebird
I don't believe that anyone has to catch flak for having their opinions. That is perfectly acceptable. I have experienced this "flak" on another Wanderlodge forum but never here. It is not the forum but some of the intolerance of others that creates this kind of smoke and mirror mentality.
I do have a different opinion than Dan for the following reasons. Dan is correct on what he says but I would like to present this same information in a slightly different way. Here are some facts for everyone's information: The Series 60 engine is not a current production engine. A visit to http://www.detroitdiesel.com/engines/default.aspx will show you that it is supported but no longer in production. The DD 13 - 16 are the current engines. I will present my view of the other points and perhaps attempt to create a different environment. 1.Any engine that you overheat will most certainly sustain damage and that includes the 2 stroke models and the Series 60 and the 3208's and the DD 13 to 16. Any every other internal combustion engine ever made by man. Too much heat just destroys an engine no matter what make or type of fuel it burns. 2. Unlike the dry block CAT 3208 the Series 60 engine has cylinder liners and O-rings to seal them just like the 2 stroke 6V's and 8V's. They too, after over heating and after time can fail with the same engine damage occurring. And it has happened. Antifreeze on a crankshaft does not discriminate in any engine. The Series 60 seems to have more longevity before this happens due to mileage but then again there are not any 25 year old Series 60 engines around. We are just a few years away from that but not far. I remember seeing them appear around 87 or 88 in OTR trucks. Bluebird took a long time to adapt. Definitely I would say the Series 60 on average with care is capable of higher mileage before rebuild. Several hundred thousand miles. With care. How many people drive their coaches 200000 or 300000 miles? Some but not many. You should approach any coach with a "what is the probability of engine rebuild" in this unit attitude. Look for reputable service records. Know how much your going to drive it. 3. Any coolant hose on any engine that fails driving an air compressor or other accessory on any engine..please see number one. The trick is to know the potential and R&R through proper maintenance it before it happens. Every engine has its weak points.... your job is to know them. 4. It is very expensive to rebuild any diesel engine no matter what the make or type. Frequently in the 20K range. This is not a phenomenon particular to 8V92's. In any engine it depends largely on what has been damaged when the failure occurred. 5.The Series 60 can function on 15W40 instead of Straight 30 or 40 weight oil. True and easier to find. But the appropriate 40 W oil is around. Lots and lots of 2 strokes still on the road. Apparently UNCLE SAM still has some Army units being built with 8V92's as we type this. So not quite obsolete yet. They are very tough as are the others. Over rev any engine and a valve can introduce itself to the top of a piston. What would I prefer? Probably a Series 60 because they seem to go more miles with less repair. The electronics are superior. They should be, this engine is a newer technology by about 40 years. Would you realize the value of this? Maybe and maybe not. Lots of 20 to 25 year old coaches only have 120000 to 160000 miles on them. I think that is a personal decision based on how much you will use the unit, what kind of driver you are and how well you plan to look after the unit. There are Series 60 engines out there that have had to be rebuilt too. Remember when looking at Bluebirds the eighties were the large production number years. So there are more 2 strokes out there probably than any other engine. They used Cummins and Series 60 and Cat in the pushers after 94. All the PT's from the 82 till 94 ( according to Vintage Birds Site) only have 2 strokes. BMC was Cummins. So if you hear more about them there is a valid reason why. There are more of those than anything else. Can you buy a coach with a Series 60 for the same price as a 8V92? That is part of the equation. 10 or 15 K go along way to an engine rebuild if it happens. How has the coach been driven and maintained? No matter what the engine if it has a lack of service or service records this is not a good thing. Some would argue the 2 stroke is a thirsty engine because every stroke is a power stroke. Depends how much fuel you atomize per stroke. I have seen DDEC 8V92's that give about the same mileage as a Series 60. Drive anything hard and it will be thirsty. Some do well and some don't do well in both the Series 60 and the 8V92. The Series 60 most likely does have a fuel consumption advantage on average here though. Not much doubt about that. How long does an extra 10K in purchase price take to pay you back at 1/2 or 3/4 MPG. Lots and lots of miles. Or maybe the engine you like is just simply what you want. For most people I think this is what it comes down to. My preference would be the Series 60 but it would depend on the Coach and the deal. I love the sound of the old 2 stroke. Probably just nostalgic but I love it anyway. And they make nice power too and if the deal is right, the maintenance is right then I would not count it out. Happy New Year! On 28 December 2010 11:11, Dan <"dangw@att.net"> wrote:
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12-28-2010, 09:30
Post: #6
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New to Bluebird
In response to your inquiry about the DD 8v92 and with all due respect to Dan, I
would suggest the DD 2 cycle is an excellent engine, and although it is no longer being manufactured for consumer use (because they are not "green", thousands of them are being made in Germany and shipped back to this country for use in military applications. In addition there are untold numbers of DD 8v92's being used in marine and stationary applications. W.W. Williams, a nationwide Detroit and Allison service provider has qualified DD techs and employees skilled in the repair and servicing of these hardy engines. The DD 2 cycle in various models has been around for more than 75 years. There is an abundance of new and reman parts available, although sometimes they are hard to get without a delay. I would suggest reading some of the literature on the DD - Tejas Coach for one and search all of the forums. Properly maintained and serviced, including proper oil (40 wt) for sure, keeping your hoses and belts replaced (using the latest silicone) and insuring proper coolant will keep them purring along. While it is true repairs and rebuilding is expensive as it is with all diesels, cummins and caterpillar. Good searching! |
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12-28-2010, 09:57
Post: #7
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New to Bluebird
FYI: One great thing about BB owners, we are all a cohesive group, eager to
share thoughts and opinions, agree to disagree as gentlemen (and ladies) and always ready to help one another. I don't believe you will find a better "fraternity" among the owners of any other brand of motorcoach. Now, as a side, I was at W.W. Williams in Birmingham, Alabama just a few months ago, and low and behold there was a whole pile of brand new 8v92s still in the crates that were being prepared for shipment and installation by Uncle Sam at the Anniston Army Depot in Anniston Alabama. This give credance to what I learned in the Army, (probably much exaggerated of course)a DD 2 stroke can be shot up and damaged almost beyond repair and a good mechanic (and there are plenty of those guys still around) can get it to where you can get home. Probably nostalgia, but I have been told that had it not been for the DD 2 stroke, we would all be speaking German or Japanese today. |
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12-28-2010, 10:19
Post: #8
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New to Bluebird
Very clear and cogent response from G Boyd. Bottom line IMHO: whatever USED engine you choose, HOW it has been maintained is vastly more important than what specific brand/model it is. Just my 2 cents.
Elliot Harris
1995 WLWB
"RARA AVIS"
-----Original Message-----
From: G Boyd To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Dec 28, 2010 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] New to Bluebird I don't believe that anyone has to catch flak for having their opinions. That is perfectly acceptable. I have experienced this "flak" on another Wanderlodge forum but never here. It is not the forum but some of the intolerance of others that creates this kind of smoke and mirror mentality.
I do have a different opinion than Dan for the following reasons. Dan is correct on what he says but I would like to present this same information in a slightly different way. Here are some facts for everyone's information: The Series 60 engine is not a current production engine. A visit to http://www.detroitdiesel.com/engines/default.aspx will show you that it is supported but no longer in production. The DD 13 - 16 are the current engines. I will present my view of the other points and perhaps attempt to create a different environment. 1.Any engine that you overheat will most certainly sustain damage and that includes the 2 stroke models and the Series 60 and the 3208's and the DD 13 to 16. Any every other internal combustion engine ever made by man. Too much heat just destroys an engine no matter what make or type of fuel it burns. 2. Unlike the dry block CAT 3208 the Series 60 engine has cylinder liners and O-rings to seal them just like the 2 stroke 6V's and 8V's. They too, after over heating and after time can fail with the same engine damage occurring. And it has happened. Antifreeze on a crankshaft does not discriminate in any engine. The Series 60 seems to have more longevity before this happens due to mileage but then again there are not any 25 year old Series 60 engines around. We are just a few years away from that but not far. I remember seeing them appear around 87 or 88 in OTR trucks. Bluebird took a long time to adapt. Definitely I would say the Series 60 on average with care is capable of higher mileage before rebuild. Several hundred thousand miles. With care. How many people drive their coaches 200000 or 300000 miles? Some but not many. You should approach any coach with a "what is the probability of engine rebuild" in this unit attitude. Look for reputable service records. Know how much your going to drive it. 3. Any coolant hose on any engine that fails driving an air compressor or other accessory on any engine..please see number one. The trick is to know the potential and R&R through proper maintenance it before it happens. Every engine has its weak points.... your job is to know them. 4. It is very expensive to rebuild any diesel engine no matter what the make or type. Frequently in the 20K range. This is not a phenomenon particular to 8V92's. In any engine it depends largely on what has been damaged when the failure occurred. 5.The Series 60 can function on 15W40 instead of Straight 30 or 40 weight oil. True and easier to find. But the appropriate 40 W oil is around. Lots and lots of 2 strokes still on the road. Apparently UNCLE SAM still has some Army units being built with 8V92's as we type this. So not quite obsolete yet. They are very tough as are the others. Over rev any engine and a valve can introduce itself to the top of a piston. What would I prefer? Probably a Series 60 because they seem to go more miles with less repair. The electronics are superior. They should be, this engine is a newer technology by about 40 years. Would you realize the value of this? Maybe and maybe not. Lots of 20 to 25 year old coaches only have 120000 to 160000 miles on them. I think that is a personal decision based on how much you will use the unit, what kind of driver you are and how well you plan to look after the unit. There are Series 60 engines out there that have had to be rebuilt too. Remember when looking at Bluebirds the eighties were the large production number years. So there are more 2 strokes out there probably than any other engine. They used Cummins and Series 60 and Cat in the pushers after 94. All the PT's from the 82 till 94 ( according to Vintage Birds Site) only have 2 strokes. BMC was Cummins. So if you hear more about them there is a valid reason why. There are more of those than anything else. Can you buy a coach with a Series 60 for the same price as a 8V92? That is part of the equation. 10 or 15 K go along way to an engine rebuild if it happens. How has the coach been driven and maintained? No matter what the engine if it has a lack of service or service records this is not a good thing. Some would argue the 2 stroke is a thirsty engine because every stroke is a power stroke. Depends how much fuel you atomize per stroke. I have seen DDEC 8V92's that give about the same mileage as a Series 60. Drive anything hard and it will be thirsty. Some do well and some don't do well in both the Series 60 and the 8V92. The Series 60 most likely does have a fuel consumption advantage on average here though. Not much doubt about that. How long does an extra 10K in purchase price take to pay you back at 1/2 or 3/4 MPG. Lots and lots of miles. Or maybe the engine you like is just simply what you want. For most people I think this is what it comes down to. My preference would be the Series 60 but it would depend on the Coach and the deal. I love the sound of the old 2 stroke. Probably just nostalgic but I love it anyway. And they make nice power too and if the deal is right, the maintenance is right then I would not count it out. Happy New Year! On 28 December 2010 11:11, Dan <"dangw@att.net"> wrote:
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12-28-2010, 12:46
Post: #9
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New to Bluebird

What a series of excellent posts.
Thank you all for the enthusiasm!!
Fred & Jeanne Hulse
Morristown,Arizona 97 WLWB41 |
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12-29-2010, 08:23
Post: #10
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New to Bluebird
Hi Don, Do you know if anyone has posted the procedure for replacing the compressor hoses?
Dan
88PT38
Jackson, MS
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