Unruly Generator!

[Johnny M Slone]

Hello to all,
On a recent outing with some fellow RVers we traveled to campground
during a heavy rainstorm. I arrived at the campground with no problem
that I could tell. Did all the things that we do when planning on
staying a couple of days. We enjoyed the evening with other BB owners
that were there. At about midnight I went to the bus for a nap. At
about 2AM I felt something shake the bus and then I hear this awful
noise of a diesel engine starting up. I think to myself, why would
someone start a noisy engine at this hour of the night. I get up to
see who has done such a thing and find out that it is my generator
that is running. I run to the front to push the stop button. The
engine stops running but the starter begins cranking trying to
restart it. The engine will not restart but the starter just
continues to try. I go outside and remove the cables from the gen
start battery. This has no effect, so I go back and remove the cables
from the house batterys. Still the starter is trying to restart the
engine. Finally I go around and throw the circut breaker off on the
AC power. All is silent now so I go back to bed.

The next morning I try turning the AC back on but the starter begins
cranking again. My friend and I finally managed to get the generator
to run out and removed the leads to the starter to disable it. A
couple of days later I put everything back and all is well. I have
looked the control circut over and can see no problems.

I have two questions, what could have caused this to happen and is it
normal for the house batterys to crank the engine after the generator
battery has been disconnected.

I did wire a relay in the control circut power lead so if this
happens again I can disable the crank and run circut with a toggle
switch.

Thanks,
Johnny M Slone
Pikeville, KY
84 PT34

[sfedeli3]

Hi Johnny,

Sounds to me like you could have a broken spring in your genset's
starter solenoid (smaller cylinder mounted on top of the starter
housing) If this spring breaks, the bendix arm can randomly close
and initiate a start sequence. Either that, or one of your genny
start switches sticks in the start position and someone bumped it
when you were parked. What happened is very unusual, but after 20+
years... who knows. There are three ways to get power to the starter
on the genset. If you disconnect both sets of batteries, voltage
will still flow to the starter from the 12V inverter that charges
your batteries while parked and gives your flourescent lights power.
I would check the switches on the dinette panel and dash to see if
they are sticking first. Removing amd checking the starter solenoid
is a little more involved- just be sure to assign numbers to the
studs, label all wires and disconnect all power first. Getting a new
starter is pretty easy if you have a farm equpiment dealer nearby.
Many of the small bobcat loaders have similar Delco starters. If you
have one of the gold Kohler gensets, let me know the part # off the
old starter. I just replaced mine with a rebuilt unit from Columbus,
OH for about $140.

Shane Fedeli
85PT40
Hershey, PA



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny M Slone"
wrote:
> Hello to all,
> On a recent outing with some fellow RVers we traveled to
campground
> during a heavy rainstorm. I arrived at the campground with no
problem
> that I could tell. Did all the things that we do when planning on
> staying a couple of days. We enjoyed the evening with other BB
owners
> that were there. At about midnight I went to the bus for a nap. At
> about 2AM I felt something shake the bus and then I hear this
awful
> noise of a diesel engine starting up. I think to myself, why would
> someone start a noisy engine at this hour of the night. I get up
to
> see who has done such a thing and find out that it is my generator
> that is running. I run to the front to push the stop button. The
> engine stops running but the starter begins cranking trying to
> restart it. The engine will not restart but the starter just
> continues to try. I go outside and remove the cables from the gen
> start battery. This has no effect, so I go back and remove the
cables
> from the house batterys. Still the starter is trying to restart
the
> engine. Finally I go around and throw the circut breaker off on
the
> AC power. All is silent now so I go back to bed.
>
> The next morning I try turning the AC back on but the starter
begins
> cranking again. My friend and I finally managed to get the
generator
> to run out and removed the leads to the starter to disable it. A
> couple of days later I put everything back and all is well. I have
> looked the control circut over and can see no problems.
>
> I have two questions, what could have caused this to happen and is
it
> normal for the house batterys to crank the engine after the
generator
> battery has been disconnected.
>
> I did wire a relay in the control circut power lead so if this
> happens again I can disable the crank and run circut with a toggle
> switch.
>
> Thanks,
> Johnny M Slone
> Pikeville, KY
> 84 PT34

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Johnny:

The contacts in the starting solenoid are welding together so it sounds
like. The 12vdc "C" relay must close to supply power to the "S" ( starter
solenoid coil) for the starter to turn, then opens up to stop the starter
but when it opens the contacts in that relay the coil of the CR relay (
110vac) holds the rest of the circuit until the stop relay, "CR2" is
energized by the stop switch. So if the starter tries to start again after
pushing the stop switch then the run/start contacts in the start solenoid
must have welded shut. That it is working ok now further supports that
theory as probably the welded contacts have finally un stuck. But you can
bet they will weld again soon.

If you have an battery isolator then the house batteries should not supply
12vdc to the gen set, unless it has been by passed of has faulted as well.
Or some contacts in the charging system for the gen battery are welded as
well. These are high amperage solenoids and take a pretty good hit each
time they are brought on line.

Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm

At 04:33 AM 8/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello to all,
>On a recent outing with some fellow RVers we traveled to campground
>during a heavy rainstorm. I arrived at the campground with no problem
>that I could tell. Did all the things that we do when planning on
>staying a couple of days. We enjoyed the evening with other BB owners
>that were there. At about midnight I went to the bus for a nap. At
>about 2AM I felt something shake the bus and then I hear this awful
>noise of a diesel engine starting up. I think to myself, why would
>someone start a noisy engine at this hour of the night. I get up to
>see who has done such a thing and find out that it is my generator
>that is running. I run to the front to push the stop button. The
>engine stops running but the starter begins cranking trying to
>restart it. The engine will not restart but the starter just
>continues to try. I go outside and remove the cables from the gen
>start battery. This has no effect, so I go back and remove the cables
>from the house batterys. Still the starter is trying to restart the
>engine. Finally I go around and throw the circut breaker off on the
>AC power. All is silent now so I go back to bed.
>
>The next morning I try turning the AC back on but the starter begins
>cranking again. My friend and I finally managed to get the generator
>to run out and removed the leads to the starter to disable it. A
>couple of days later I put everything back and all is well. I have
>looked the control circut over and can see no problems.
>
>I have two questions, what could have caused this to happen and is it
>normal for the house batterys to crank the engine after the generator
>battery has been disconnected.
>
>I did wire a relay in the control circut power lead so if this
>happens again I can disable the crank and run circut with a toggle
>switch.
>
>Thanks,
>Johnny M Slone
>Pikeville, KY
>84 PT34
>
>
>
>
>

[Johnny M Slone]

Thanks Ralph and Shane for your replys.
Do you think that water in wiring harness to the start/stop switches
inside could have caused this problem. I know that touching the lead
from the start switch inside with a test light will pull up the ( I
believe C relay ) and cause the engine to start. This tells me that a
high resistance ground would probably do the same thing. The engine
not restarting supports your opinion that the problem is the starter
solenoid but why did it start the first time. I have tested the
solenoids in the boost circut and they appear to be OK.
After thinking about the order that I disconnected the batteries if I
had first done the start battery and then the charger the starter
probably have stopped cranking and I could have left the house
batteries connected. Tomorrow I am going to do just that and see if
the gen engine will crank without pushing the boost switch. Would
this be a good test for the isolator?
Thanks again,
Johnny M Slone
Pikeville, KY
1984 PT35


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
wrote:
> Johnny:
>
> The contacts in the starting solenoid are welding together so it
sounds
> like. The 12vdc "C" relay must close to supply power to the "S" (
starter
> solenoid coil) for the starter to turn, then opens up to stop the
starter
> but when it opens the contacts in that relay the coil of the CR
relay (
> 110vac) holds the rest of the circuit until the stop relay, "CR2"
is
> energized by the stop switch. So if the starter tries to start
again after
> pushing the stop switch then the run/start contacts in the start
solenoid
> must have welded shut. That it is working ok now further supports
that
> theory as probably the welded contacts have finally un stuck. But
you can
> bet they will weld again soon.
>
> If you have an battery isolator then the house batteries should not
supply
> 12vdc to the gen set, unless it has been by passed of has faulted
as well.
> Or some contacts in the charging system for the gen battery are
welded as
> well. These are high amperage solenoids and take a pretty good hit
each
> time they are brought on line.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
> http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
>
> At 04:33 AM 8/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> >Hello to all,
> >On a recent outing with some fellow RVers we traveled to
campground
> >during a heavy rainstorm. I arrived at the campground with no
problem
> >that I could tell. Did all the things that we do when planning on
> >staying a couple of days. We enjoyed the evening with other BB
owners
> >that were there. At about midnight I went to the bus for a nap. At
> >about 2AM I felt something shake the bus and then I hear this awful
> >noise of a diesel engine starting up. I think to myself, why would
> >someone start a noisy engine at this hour of the night. I get up to
> >see who has done such a thing and find out that it is my generator
> >that is running. I run to the front to push the stop button. The
> >engine stops running but the starter begins cranking trying to
> >restart it. The engine will not restart but the starter just
> >continues to try. I go outside and remove the cables from the gen
> >start battery. This has no effect, so I go back and remove the
cables
> >from the house batterys. Still the starter is trying to restart the
> >engine. Finally I go around and throw the circut breaker off on the
> >AC power. All is silent now so I go back to bed.
> >
> >The next morning I try turning the AC back on but the starter
begins
> >cranking again. My friend and I finally managed to get the
generator
> >to run out and removed the leads to the starter to disable it. A
> >couple of days later I put everything back and all is well. I have
> >looked the control circut over and can see no problems.
> >
> >I have two questions, what could have caused this to happen and is
it
> >normal for the house batterys to crank the engine after the
generator
> >battery has been disconnected.
> >
> >I did wire a relay in the control circut power lead so if this
> >happens again I can disable the crank and run circut with a toggle
> >switch.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Johnny M Slone
> >Pikeville, KY
> >84 PT34
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Johnny:

Question: Is the redi line still in your Coach? Is it, or the compartment
still in the curb side rear under the louvered door next to the battery
bank? In the lower rear is where either the isolator or two heavy duty
solenoids are located.

It is doubtful that water on the start/stop switch would do this, though
not impossible. Check the wiring coming out of the control box to the gen
set for abrasions, cuts or general disrepair, that may be the cause. And it
very well could be that something inside the start solenoid slipped, or a
weak spring holding the contacts just finally made it to the contacts. Hard
to tell, not being there. It is always hard to troubleshoot something that
is working now.

Safe travels,

Ralph ( Off to Texas to do a PDI today)
Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm

At 02:15 AM 8/11/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks Ralph and Shane for your replys.
>Do you think that water in wiring harness to the start/stop switches
>inside could have caused this problem. I know that touching the lead
>from the start switch inside with a test light will pull up the ( I
>believe C relay ) and cause the engine to start. This tells me that a
>high resistance ground would probably do the same thing. The engine
>not restarting supports your opinion that the problem is the starter
>solenoid but why did it start the first time. I have tested the
>solenoids in the boost circut and they appear to be OK.
>After thinking about the order that I disconnected the batteries if I
>had first done the start battery and then the charger the starter
>probably have stopped cranking and I could have left the house
>batteries connected. Tomorrow I am going to do just that and see if
>the gen engine will crank without pushing the boost switch. Would
>this be a good test for the isolator?
>Thanks again,
>Johnny M Slone
>Pikeville, KY
>1984 PT35
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> wrote:
> > Johnny:
> >
> > The contacts in the starting solenoid are welding together so it
>sounds
> > like. The 12vdc "C" relay must close to supply power to the "S" (
>starter
> > solenoid coil) for the starter to turn, then opens up to stop the
>starter
> > but when it opens the contacts in that relay the coil of the CR
>relay (
> > 110vac) holds the rest of the circuit until the stop relay, "CR2"
>is
> > energized by the stop switch. So if the starter tries to start
>again after
> > pushing the stop switch then the run/start contacts in the start
>solenoid
> > must have welded shut. That it is working ok now further supports
>that
> > theory as probably the welded contacts have finally un stuck. But
>you can
> > bet they will weld again soon.
> >
> > If you have an battery isolator then the house batteries should not
>supply
> > 12vdc to the gen set, unless it has been by passed of has faulted
>as well.
> > Or some contacts in the charging system for the gen battery are
>welded as
> > well. These are high amperage solenoids and take a pretty good hit
>each
> > time they are brought on line.
> >
>