Engine & Tranny problems 2

[Leroy Eckert]

Raw Info: For anyone interested- Various Temperatures
1990 8v92 DDEC II TAC, Allison HT-755CR 5 Speed
1990 WB-40 recorded 4/26 and 4/30 over 471SM

Data recorded at OAT- 87F(except as noted in a thunderstorm)
All Data Recorded on the Flat at 67 MPH except as noted.

Alarmstat Controlled-No Chassis a/c(190 degree Alarmstat installed)(Factory is
195 degrees)

Analog (a)
Gauges VMSpc Boost Pyro MPG
Water Temp
High 190 191 6 510 6.0
Low 182(b) 182 6 510 6.0
Engine Oil 225 n/a©
Tranny 170 n/a
Retarder 230 n/a

Chassis a/c On( Fan Approx 1800 RPM)

Water Temp
Stable 180 182 6 510 6.0
Oil Temp 220 n/a
Tranny 170 n/a
Retarder 230 n/a

Fan Override On-Chassis A/C Off(Fan approx 1800 RPM)

Water Temp
Stable 175 177 6 510 6.0
Oil Temp 215 n/a
Tranny 170 n/a
Retarder 230 n/a

Maximum Water Temp 193 one mile grade
Maximum Pyro Temp 625 one mile grade
(a) Reading Received from DDEC II real time through VMSpc
(b) Interpolated using marking tape on the gauges
© Not available from VMSpc on DDEC II

Boost Analysis Boost MPH MPG
Rate 6 60 6.0
6 65 5.8
20 65 2.3
Recorded from DDEC II through VMSpc

Gauge Analysis Analog GPS VMSpc
Speedometer(MPH) 45 45 45.1
55 55 55
65 65 64.9

Real Time Power
Analysis Max HP Max Torque Throttle Boost
Alarmstat 501 1447 100% 22
Chassis a/c on 501 1447 100% 22
Fan Override on 501 1447 100% 22

Trip Odometer Odometer GPS Var %
Trip 473.3 471.17 2.13 .004
Speedo Miles 481.0 471.17 9.83 .02

Oil Pressure- From VMSpc Real Time DDEC II
Max Hot- 72psi
Idle Hot 16psi

Fuel Temperature- 96.5
Water Temperature Decrease in a Driving Rain- 11 degrees

This makes my head hurt but it supports my theory that a 195 degree Alarmstat
artificially increases water temperature to the upper limit of 210 degrees. The
data also supports that air flow is King here particularly for those folks in
the West.
Alarmstat---My theory- A 195 degree Alarmstat is behind the temperature power
curve air flow wise and does not have a chance in an extended grade climb. The
radiator cooling water must traverse numerous feet of hose to cool all of the
components, tranny, retarder, oil etc.. By the time the fan comes on it cannot
cool it efficiently. The Alarmstat has a 8-10 degree operating range.

It is quite possible that humid air cools more rapidly than dry air.
Evaporating moisture, rain storm, man made water flood may help supercool the
radiator. I'm not an engineer but I am looking very closely at the above
numbers.

My bus seems to like these numbers. I know I do. I have very little residue
from my slobber tubes which in my opinion means lower temps and less blow by.

I find it very interesting that HP and Torque is virtually unchanged in the
three possible fan configurations.

I do not suggest you do what I have done. I have reported the actual numbers
for your study over a beer. lol

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL







----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory OConnor
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2


Leroy, I like the idea of the Rad irrigation system. I thought of
using grey water but Mike noted that not much water was needed. I
think you will need several sprays as the airflow dynamics will
change dramatically with a 2,000 rpm driven fan.

Fan override allow the operator to screw up the cooling system
engineering real time. I use it to keep the fan from cycling on and
off and I use it to cool the tranny on a retarder held hill decend as
I am not sure the tranny temp will turn the fan on. I ( now) always
wait for the bus to turn the fan on and keep it on via the override
if I think the road will remain hard climbing. Folks that turn the
fan on prior to a hill climb rob the ground drive of almost 10 % of
the HP that is used up running the fan. I am interested in seeing
your results Temp vs temp vs rpm at a given stress and ambient.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
wrote:
>
> That oil temperature is the absolute maximum allowable according to
my literature. My oil temperature routinely ran 235-240 on the flat
until I made a single change. While I haven't been able to pull a
grade of any consequence I have seen temperature reductions across
the board on the analog gauges.
>
> My set up is this: The radiator. In front of that is an a/c
condenser and the oil cooler for the power steering and the hydraulic
fan itself. The coolers cover a major part of the radiator cooling
surface. Water from the radiator is dispersed to the tranny,
retarder and engine oil cooler heat exchangers through a manifold to
cool the units. As water temp increases so does the temperature of
those units.
>
> Earlier model BB's with the a/c condenser on the roof have the
benefit of cooler air ( road surface temperature, and that can be
very hot) passing over the radiator(ie.ours cools the condenser
first and then cools the radiator with the same road surface air.)
That indicates the air going through our radiator is proportionately
hotter than on earlier models. You can cut off the chassis a/c or
increase the air flow which you are doing with the fan override. In
theory, once water temperatures reach 195 degrees the Alarmstat
should place the fan in high mode and keep it on until temperatures
back off to about 187 degrees at which time the fan goes to idle
mode. If it never gets to 187 the fan should continue running full
force and yield the same results as the fan override.
>
> I'll post my temperatures Tuesday after our run to Talladega.
They will be actual realtime temps taken off the VMSpc from the DDEC
as it is receiving them. I have been jacking around with my system
through the winter and am interested to see the results.
>
> Your cooling issue could be the Alarmstat or a combination of that
and the radiator. I am currently working on the plumbing for my
radiator water flood system just in case I need it. MH gave me that
idea. If I lived in the Mountain West I for sure would have a
waterflood system to pull the mountains.
>
> I'm using a 190 degree Alarmstat now.
>
> Leroy Eckert
> 1990WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> Niceville, FL
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ronmarabito2002
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:56 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2
>
>
> I've been suspicious that that could be the problem also, but
with the
> fan on manual, the water temp is just fine and only gets to about
195
> when pulling a real good grade. The oil temp is more of a concern
> though and could be related to part of the radiator not cooling
and
> can't handle the build-up. On a good grade, the oil temp is
reaching
> around 250 degrees. Of course, we don't know how good the analog
> guage is either.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> Currently in Monticello, Utah.
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Leroy Eckert"
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm happy to hear you are back rolling along. Did you pick up a
bad
> load of fuel?
> > Running a little warm. It sounds like you were not using the
> chassis air. When you get ready and before pulling the radiator
I'll
> tell you what I did on my coach. I imagine the systems are
similar.
> I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow and will chart temperatures taken
from
> the DDL through VMSpc and report them Tuesday.
> > I had been running a little warm and the problem turned out to
be
> the Alarmstat not working correctly.
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > Niceville, FL
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: ronmarabito2002
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:33 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2
> >
> >
> > Thanks Dan for posting the update.
> >
> > I got the coach back on the road yesterday a few dollars
poorer, but
> > not as bad as I thought it might be.
> >
> > Clogged fuel filter was the primary power problem. They finally
> > decided that unless they could duplicate the electrical
anomolly, they
> > were unable to diagnose the cause. They couldn't duplicate the
tranny
> > light flashing when turning left. First left turn I made after
> > departing the shop, Bingo, the flashing light. They said to
ignore
> > the ECM Fault Code for now as everything seems to be running
just
> fine.
> >
> > I am running a little warm and have put the fan in override
mode to
> > make sure I keep temps under control. I've just about decided
that I
> > have a radiator core replacement in the near future. With two
other
> > cooling units in front of the radiator, it is very difficult to
get
> > infra red temps around the radiator.
> >
> > The two house batteries that tested bad have been eliminated
from the
> > bank, so I now have the use of the other (6).
> >
> > Today, I never got the tranny light when turning hard left.
We'll see
> > how long that lasts.
> >
> > Then also today moving north on Hiway 491 towards Shiprock, in
the
> > four corners area, a gravel truck passed me going the other way
and I
> > got 11 hits on the windshield. The driver side will definitely
have
> > to be replaced.
> >
> > This is beginning to be the trip from Hell. Hope things settle
down.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Currently in Monticello, Utah and planning to play golf
tomorrow.
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph L. Fullenwider"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the update Dan.
> > >
> > > Safe travels,
> > >
> > > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > > 84FC35
> > > Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
> > >
> > > At 08:28 PM 4/24/2007 +0000, you wrote:
> > > >Ron and Shirley are back on the road and headed towards
Gallup NM.
> > > >Ron will give a update when he has internet access.
> > > >
> > > >Dan, Albuquerque NM
> > > >BB BMC 37'
> > > >
> > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just talked to the shop. Nothing on the electrical at this
> point,
> > > >but
> > > > > they found low fuel pressure, changed filters. I had asked
> them to
> > > > > change the air filter anyway, because it was needing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > They found a hole in one of the turbo boost pipes and
> repaired it.
> > > > > That alone could have caused some of the power loss. It
says
> > > >nothing
> > > > > about the crazy throttle response where at full throttle,
we
> only
> > > >got
> > > > > 1900 rpm and when backed off, we got the full 2200 rpm.
> > > > >
> > > > > They are getting ready to go do a new throttle response
test and
> > > >power
> > > > > test. I will talk with the manager shortly to see about
> having the
> > > > > batteries isolated and tested.
> > > > >
> > > > > More info a little later. I will not have internet in a
little
> > > >while,
> > > > > so I may have to update you when I can find service.
> > > > >
> > > > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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