buyer beware

[Gary Miller]

Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.

John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. the 'deal'
of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.

What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires an
enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual work,
it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy workmanship
simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing in
workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a casual
observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult to
work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to deal
with because of accessing the various mechanicals.

What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to changing
the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. I
planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, and
had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife and
boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, so I
cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur again,
and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 what I
had done when I was 38 on it.

I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for the
better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But the
major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot day
while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my vacation,
they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
part of a family vacation.

I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife and
kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and condos
together.

So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of mid
30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor, hundreds
of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact that I
have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
worth it.

The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule which
states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I bought
it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't be
getting used.

I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...

I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there are
always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find that I
rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.

If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say this
is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need money,
it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring me
to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to get
rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast, and
more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another direction.

I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on by.
I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that in
a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to take
her home.

Gary Miller
83 FC 33
Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my trailer
up
> on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and sell
> the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
expect
> to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded it
> pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in me
> and my "issues" John Heckman
> >
> >
> > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving
map
> display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
> large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
toad.
> Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water, in
> motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
important
> amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
> >
> > Leroy Eckert
> > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > Niceville, FL
> > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
price
> range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and 47k
> asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at
that
> figure.
> > MH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: bubblerboy64
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> looking at
> > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
it.
> > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea of
> what
> > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
that
> and
> > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able to
> > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> would
> > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
But
> I
> > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very presentable
BB
> > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
you've
> > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> yourself
> > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > >
> > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I have
> > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> Blown
> > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned out
> to
> > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> cooler
> > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
over
> to
> > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> close
> > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all the
> > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> system,
> > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
good
> > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > Cold but true.
> > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > Germantown, WI
> > > 83 FC 35rb
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
be
> a
> > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > nothing. At
> > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
prospects.
> > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
have
> > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > that's
> > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car restorations
> and
> > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to sell
> for
> > the
> > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the seller
> when
> > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a buyer
> > paying
> > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
nice
> > coach
> > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth exactly
> the
> > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
is
> > the
> > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> Board
> > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> competition
> > with
> > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
about
> > the
> > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-mailed
> him
> > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> figure
> > to
> > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach plus
> > some.
> > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy could
> > easily
> > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional $15K
to
> > get
> > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
point.
> If
> > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> prove
> > it.
> > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> coach
> > but
> > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof there
> of.
> > So
> > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not looking
> for
> > a
> > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
idea
> of
> > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
needed
> > > repairs will
> > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> refurbished
> > > coaches.
> > > >
> > > > Kerry,
> > > >
> > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people would
> > rather
> > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that was
> > > advertised
> > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
and
> > seller
> > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a premium
> for
> > this
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> sell "average"
> > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
considered "market
> > price".
> > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches where
> folks
> > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going to
> pay
> > > that.
> > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> with
> > a lot
> > > > of problems, either.
> > > >
> > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach with
> > nothing
> > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more. In
> my
> > > range I
> > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I came
to
> > was
> > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market value
> for
> > a
> > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
work
> I
> > might
> > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
get
> > $50k.
> > > On
> > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> $80k.
> > > >
> > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
with
> > almost
> > > no
> > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
those)
> > right
> > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This tells
me
> > that
> > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
are
> > those
> > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work to
> > make it
> > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > >
> > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > >
> > > > -Ryan
> > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>