buyer beware

[Gary Miller]

While offering a warranty would be nice, I'm not a business entity.
My coach speaks for itself in quality and I don't feel it needs a
warranty to nudge a buyer in the direction of making the purchase.
I'm not a professional mechanic, just an enthusaist with time on my
hands. There is no warranty.

Besides, it's easy to drive these rigs the wrong way and knowing that
someone will cover the first major mess-up could be inviting a
problem instead of preventing one. Kind of like when the DOT and
NTSB studies in the 90's found that people were tending to drive more
recklessly in vehicles equipped with airbags because they
felt 'safer' behind the wheel, thus negating the actual safety
mechanism of an airbag (and anti-lock brakes, skid control, etc...).
Don't ask me to source these studies, it's been too long.

For example, a turbo FC with the standard 4.89 rear end should never
be driven above 65 mph. It'll be over revving the engine. It'll go
there, quite easily. Many people confuse the governor with a rev-
limiter and simply mat the pedal and point the coach down the road.
It only takes one valve spring to stretch past it's limit and the CAT
will eat a valve. Seen it. These old speedometers and tachometers
require adjustments for accuracy, I've seen that mistake too. Ever
notice how many Wanderlodges are NOT on their original engine? One
must take care of their Wanderlodge, it's not smart enough to take
care of itself.

Can anyone tell me the limitations on use of the Jacobs retarder in
the 3rd and 4th positions? How 'bout the cool down time? Any takers
on the max speed and a good technique to manually downshift the
Allison while climbing a hill to prevent lugging (4.89 rear end)?
How 'bout for downshifting to help slow a steep descent and stay out
of the 3rd and 4th position on the retarder for extended periods
(that's a hint for the first question, it's stated as 'short periods
of time'? So what's the maximum oil usage of the CAT? Along that
line, about how long does it take before the oil dipstick will show
an accurate reading? There's a lot of oil in there. Off the top of
your head, how do you check the transmission fluid level, engine
running or shut down, hot or cold? Here's an essay question, what
can you do if you're climbing a steep grade on a stunningly beautiful
narrow winding road, on a hot day and the engine alarm starts buzzing
with the light on, you guess that you're 3/4 the way to the top (a
few miles to go) you take your eyes off the scenery, scan the gauges,
and see there's an overheat occurring (oh, and there's a logging
truck and three cars behind you with no shoulder)? Extra credit,
what temp is actually considered an overheat for the CAT? Extra,
extra credit, what temp did the alarm come on?

Nope, I'm not going to warranty a $200,000+ coach that I'm selling
for under $40,000. If I was comfortable letting folks drive off with
this beast while financially covering their learning curve, I'd start
renting them out.

Come to my home and spend some time with it and the documentation I
offer combined with the touch and feel of quality workmanship, the
depth of knowledge I posess, and the enjoyment I have, and the normal
anxieties will fade. Drive it down the road and the big grin you
find yourself with after a few minutes melts away the concerns. I've
seen it. I've already had visitors just 'looking'.

Keep in mind that at $38,500 this is by no means a new Wanderlodge.
There are always things to work on and maintenance to be done. I'll
go over all that in person with any potential buyer, and thus will
begin the negotiations. I'll also let you stay as long as you like
to learn about it, and answer any questions you have while owning
it. I'll pit my Blue Box against anyone else's as far as depth of
information available on this coach. So there's your warranty,
arguably better than an actual monetary contract, I'd say, because
we'll work together to insure you're comfortable with this coach, and
you can make the call.

Gary Miller
83 FC 33 - For Sale
Milwaukee area

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person.
I
> wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
anxieties
> in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express
or
> implied, as-is"
>
> I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for
> the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
> years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
> confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptromolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
> wrote:
> >
> > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> >
> > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
the 'deal'
> > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> >
> > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires
an
> > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
> work,
> > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
workmanship
> > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing
in
> > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
casual
> > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult
to
> > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
> deal
> > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> >
> > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> changing
> > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore.
I
> > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least,
and
> > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife
and
> > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again,
so
> I
> > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
> again,
> > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50
what
> I
> > had done when I was 38 on it.
> >
> > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for
the
> > better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
> the
> > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot
day
> > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
vacation,
> > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> > part of a family vacation.
> >
> > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife
and
> > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and
condos
> > together.
> >
> > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of
mid
> > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> hundreds
> > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact
that
> I
> > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> > worth it.
> >
> > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
> which
> > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
bought
> > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
> be
> > getting used.
> >
> > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> >
> > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
> are
> > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find
that
> I
> > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> >
> > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
> this
> > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
money,
> > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring
me
> > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to
get
> > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
> and
> > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> direction.
> >
> > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on
by.
> > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
> in
> > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to
take
> > her home.
> >
> > Gary Miller
> > 83 FC 33
> > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> trailer
> > up
> > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
> sell
> > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> > expect
> > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
concluded
> it
> > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
> me
> > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS,
moving
> > map
> > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for
a
> > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> > toad.
> > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
water,
> in
> > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> > important
> > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
steal.
> > > >
> > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast
high92
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> > price
> > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
> 47k
> > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal
at
> > that
> > > figure.
> > > > MH
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > > looking at
> > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might
do
> > it.
> > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
> of
> > > what
> > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
about
> > that
> > > and
> > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
able
> to
> > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what
I
> > > would
> > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of
10.
> > But
> > > I
> > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> presentable
> > BB
> > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> > you've
> > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > > yourself
> > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
> have
> > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
pics.
> > > Blown
> > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
> out
> > > to
> > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > > cooler
> > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
change
> > over
> > > to
> > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting
real
> > > close
> > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
> the
> > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > > system,
> > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> > good
> > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > > nothing. At
> > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > prospects.
> > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
which
> > have
> > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers.
See
> > > > that's
> > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> restorations
> > > and
> > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
> sell
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> seller
> > > when
> > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
> buyer
> > > > paying
> > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> > nice
> > > > coach
> > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> exactly
> > > the
> > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
there
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the
Bill
> > > Board
> > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > competition
> > > > with
> > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> mailed
> > > him
> > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able
to
> > > figure
> > > > to
> > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
> plus
> > > > some.
> > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
> could
> > > > easily
> > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
> $15K
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> > point.
> > > If
> > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required
to
> > > prove
> > > > it.
> > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
older
> > > coach
> > > > but
> > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
> there
> > > of.
> > > > So
> > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> looking
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> > idea
> > > of
> > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> > needed
> > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > refurbished
> > > > > coaches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
> would
> > > > rather
> > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
> was
> > > > > advertised
> > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
buyer
> > and
> > > > seller
> > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> premium
> > > for
> > > > this
> > > > > > work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > sell "average"
> > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > considered "market
> > > > price".
> > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
> where
> > > folks
> > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
going
> to
> > > pay
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
coach
> > > with
> > > > a lot
> > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
> with
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
more.
> In
> > > my
> > > > > range I
> > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
> came
> > to
> > > > was
> > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
> value
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> > work
> > > I
> > > > might
> > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
could
> > get
> > > > $50k.
> > > > > On
> > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
wanting
> > > $80k.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> > with
> > > > almost
> > > > > no
> > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> > those)
> > > > right
> > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
> tells
> > me
> > > > that
> > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high,
as
> > are
> > > > those
> > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
work
> to
> > > > make it
> > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>