buyer beware
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05-06-2007, 04:31
Post: #32
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buyer beware
Hi Gary,
Great post, We miss you , I think you will return with a bigger bird within two years. Bill 88 Fc Michigan --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller" > > While offering a warranty would be nice, I'm not a business entity. > My coach speaks for itself in quality and I don't feel it needs a > warranty to nudge a buyer in the direction of making the purchase. > I'm not a professional mechanic, just an enthusaist with time on my > hands. There is no warranty. > > Besides, it's easy to drive these rigs the wrong way and knowing that > someone will cover the first major mess-up could be inviting a > problem instead of preventing one. Kind of like when the DOT and > NTSB studies in the 90's found that people were tending to drive more > recklessly in vehicles equipped with airbags because they > felt 'safer' behind the wheel, thus negating the actual safety > mechanism of an airbag (and anti-lock brakes, skid control, etc...). > Don't ask me to source these studies, it's been too long. > > For example, a turbo FC with the standard 4.89 rear end should never > be driven above 65 mph. It'll be over revving the engine. It'll go > there, quite easily. Many people confuse the governor with a rev- > limiter and simply mat the pedal and point the coach down the road. > It only takes one valve spring to stretch past it's limit and the CAT > will eat a valve. Seen it. These old speedometers and tachometers > require adjustments for accuracy, I've seen that mistake too. Ever > notice how many Wanderlodges are NOT on their original engine? One > must take care of their Wanderlodge, it's not smart enough to take > care of itself. > > Can anyone tell me the limitations on use of the Jacobs retarder in > the 3rd and 4th positions? How 'bout the cool down time? Any takers > on the max speed and a good technique to manually downshift the > Allison while climbing a hill to prevent lugging (4.89 rear end)? > How 'bout for downshifting to help slow a steep descent and stay out > of the 3rd and 4th position on the retarder for extended periods > (that's a hint for the first question, it's stated as 'short periods > of time' ![]() > line, about how long does it take before the oil dipstick will show > an accurate reading? There's a lot of oil in there. Off the top of > your head, how do you check the transmission fluid level, engine > running or shut down, hot or cold? Here's an essay question, what > can you do if you're climbing a steep grade on a stunningly beautiful > narrow winding road, on a hot day and the engine alarm starts buzzing > with the light on, you guess that you're 3/4 the way to the top (a > few miles to go) you take your eyes off the scenery, scan the gauges, > and see there's an overheat occurring (oh, and there's a logging > truck and three cars behind you with no shoulder)? Extra credit, > what temp is actually considered an overheat for the CAT? Extra, > extra credit, what temp did the alarm come on? > > Nope, I'm not going to warranty a $200,000+ coach that I'm selling > for under $40,000. If I was comfortable letting folks drive off with > this beast while financially covering their learning curve, I'd start > renting them out. > > Come to my home and spend some time with it and the documentation I > offer combined with the touch and feel of quality workmanship, the > depth of knowledge I posess, and the enjoyment I have, and the normal > anxieties will fade. Drive it down the road and the big grin you > find yourself with after a few minutes melts away the concerns. I've > seen it. I've already had visitors just 'looking'. > > Keep in mind that at $38,500 this is by no means a new Wanderlodge. > There are always things to work on and maintenance to be done. I'll > go over all that in person with any potential buyer, and thus will > begin the negotiations. I'll also let you stay as long as you like > to learn about it, and answer any questions you have while owning > it. I'll pit my Blue Box against anyone else's as far as depth of > information available on this coach. So there's your warranty, > arguably better than an actual monetary contract, I'd say, because > we'll work together to insure you're comfortable with this coach, and > you can make the call. > > Gary Miller > 83 FC 33 - For Sale > Milwaukee area > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor" > > > > > Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person. > I > > wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the > anxieties > > in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express > or > > implied, as-is" > > > > I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was > > confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for > > the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2 > > years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a > > confidence disortation with a disclosure. > > GregoryO'Connor > > 94ptromolandCa > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller" > > > > > > > > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach. > > > > > > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if > > > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. > the 'deal' > > > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also > > > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation. > > > > > > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary > > > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires > an > > > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual > > work, > > > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These > > > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy > workmanship > > > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing > in > > > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a > casual > > > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult > to > > > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to > > deal > > > with because of accessing the various mechanicals. > > > > > > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to > > changing > > > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. > I > > > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, > and > > > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife > and > > > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I > > > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, > so > > I > > > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I > > > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur > > again, > > > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 > what > > I > > > had done when I was 38 on it. > > > > > > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that > > > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for > the > > > better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But > > the > > > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot > day > > > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my > vacation, > > > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't > > > part of a family vacation. > > > > > > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife > and > > > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends > > > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and > condos > > > together. > > > > > > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of > mid > > > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor, > > hundreds > > > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact > that > > I > > > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are > > > worth it. > > > > > > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule > > which > > > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh > > > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I > bought > > > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with > > > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't > > be > > > getting used. > > > > > > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous > > > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see... > > > > > > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there > > are > > > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble > > > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find > that > > I > > > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I > > > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work > > > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it. > > > > > > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say > > this > > > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need > money, > > > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring > me > > > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to > get > > > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast, > > and > > > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another > > direction. > > > > > > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth > > > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on > by. > > > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to > > > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that > > in > > > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to > take > > > her home. > > > > > > Gary Miller > > > 83 FC 33 > > > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two > > > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not > > > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my > > trailer > > > up > > > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and > > sell > > > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I > > > expect > > > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have > concluded > > it > > > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next > > > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in > > me > > > > and my "issues" John Heckman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, > moving > > > map > > > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for > a > > > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a > > > toad. > > > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running > water, > > in > > > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other > > > important > > > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a > steal. > > > > > > > > > > Leroy Eckert > > > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors" > > > > > Niceville, FL > > > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast > high92 > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your > > > price > > > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and > > 47k > > > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal > at > > > that > > > > figure. > > > > > MH > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: bubblerboy64 > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware > > > > > > > > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was > > > > looking at > > > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might > do > > > it. > > > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea > > of > > > > what > > > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or > about > > > that > > > > and > > > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be > able > > to > > > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what > I > > > > would > > > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of > 10. > > > But > > > > I > > > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very > > presentable > > > BB > > > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best > > > you've > > > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor > > > > yourself > > > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH > > > > > > > > > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC. > > > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I > > have > > > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line > pics. > > > > Blown > > > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned > > out > > > > to > > > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one. > > > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air > > > > cooler > > > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the > change > > > over > > > > to > > > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting > real > > > > close > > > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all > > the > > > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water > > > > system, > > > > > lighting, vents, etc. > > > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the > > > good > > > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard. > > > > > > Cold but true. > > > > > > Mike Hohnstein > > > > > > Germantown, WI > > > > > > 83 FC 35rb > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: bubblerboy64 > > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM > > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference > would > > > be > > > > a > > > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing > > > > > nothing. At > > > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely > > > prospects. > > > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints > which > > > have > > > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. > See > > > > > that's > > > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car > > restorations > > > > and > > > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to > > sell > > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the > > seller > > > > when > > > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a > > buyer > > > > > paying > > > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a > > > nice > > > > > coach > > > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth > > exactly > > > > the > > > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and > there > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the > Bill > > > > Board > > > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in > > > > competition > > > > > with > > > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e- > > mailed > > > > him > > > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able > to > > > > figure > > > > > to > > > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach > > plus > > > > > some. > > > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy > > could > > > > > easily > > > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional > > $15K > > > to > > > > > get > > > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a > > > point. > > > > If > > > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required > to > > > > prove > > > > > it. > > > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored > older > > > > coach > > > > > but > > > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof > > there > > > > of. > > > > > So > > > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not > > looking > > > > for > > > > > a > > > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my > > > idea > > > > of > > > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some > > > needed > > > > > > repairs will > > > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for > > > > refurbished > > > > > > coaches. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kerry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people > > would > > > > > rather > > > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that > > was > > > > > > advertised > > > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between > buyer > > > and > > > > > seller > > > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a > > premium > > > > for > > > > > this > > > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to > > > > sell "average" > > > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I > > > considered "market > > > > > price". > > > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches > > where > > > > folks > > > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't > going > > to > > > > pay > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a > coach > > > > with > > > > > a lot > > > > > > > of problems, either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach > > with > > > > > nothing > > > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly > more. > > In > > > > my > > > > > > range I > > > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I > > came > > > to > > > > > was > > > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market > > value > > > > for > > > > > a > > > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major > > > work > > > > I > > > > > might > > > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they > could > > > get > > > > > $50k. > > > > > > On > > > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were > wanting > > > > $80k. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach > > > with > > > > > almost > > > > > > no > > > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have > > > those) > > > > > right > > > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This > > tells > > > me > > > > > that > > > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, > as > > > are > > > > > those > > > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of > work > > to > > > > > make it > > > > > > > half as nice as mine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Ryan > > > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92 > > > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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Messages In This Thread |
buyer beware - Tom Meservey - 05-03-2007, 06:52
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 00:22
buyer beware - M.L. Perkinson - 05-04-2007, 02:55
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 04:02
buyer beware - davidkerryedwards - 05-04-2007, 04:37
buyer beware - Ryan Wright - 05-04-2007, 07:00
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 07:48
buyer beware - robertnloomas - 05-04-2007, 11:11
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 12:18
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 13:32
buyer beware - Mike Hohnstein - 05-04-2007, 13:57
buyer beware - ac7880 - 05-04-2007, 14:12
buyer beware - davidkerryedwards - 05-04-2007, 14:13
buyer beware - Mike Hohnstein - 05-04-2007, 15:35
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-04-2007, 22:49
buyer beware - brad barton - 05-05-2007, 00:52
buyer beware - Gregory OConnor - 05-05-2007, 01:29
buyer beware - Pete Masterson - 05-05-2007, 01:42
buyer beware - bluebirdsp36 - 05-05-2007, 03:19
buyer beware - pattypape - 05-05-2007, 03:23
buyer beware - Leroy Eckert - 05-05-2007, 03:50
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-05-2007, 06:39
buyer beware - Leroy Eckert - 05-05-2007, 07:13
buyer beware - Gardner Yeaw - 05-05-2007, 14:01
buyer beware - Gary Miller - 05-05-2007, 18:35
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-05-2007, 23:36
buyer beware - Gregory OConnor - 05-06-2007, 02:55
buyer beware - bubblerboy64 - 05-06-2007, 03:39
buyer beware - Robert Britton - 05-06-2007, 03:47
buyer beware - Gary Miller - 05-06-2007, 04:19
buyer beware - Gary Miller - 05-06-2007, 04:22
buyer beware - pattypape - 05-06-2007 04:31
buyer beware - Pete Masterson - 05-06-2007, 07:04
buyer beware - Mike Hohnstein - 05-06-2007, 15:03
buyer beware - Gregory OConnor - 05-06-2007, 16:09
buyer beware - mbulriss - 05-07-2007, 03:14
buyer beware - Henry Jay Hannigan - 05-07-2007, 03:29
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