buyer beware

[pattypape]

Hi Gary,

Great post,
We miss you , I think you will return with a bigger bird
within two years.

Bill 88 Fc Michigan


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
wrote:
>
> While offering a warranty would be nice, I'm not a business
entity.
> My coach speaks for itself in quality and I don't feel it needs a
> warranty to nudge a buyer in the direction of making the purchase.
> I'm not a professional mechanic, just an enthusaist with time on my
> hands. There is no warranty.
>
> Besides, it's easy to drive these rigs the wrong way and knowing
that
> someone will cover the first major mess-up could be inviting a
> problem instead of preventing one. Kind of like when the DOT and
> NTSB studies in the 90's found that people were tending to drive
more
> recklessly in vehicles equipped with airbags because they
> felt 'safer' behind the wheel, thus negating the actual safety
> mechanism of an airbag (and anti-lock brakes, skid control,
etc...).
> Don't ask me to source these studies, it's been too long.
>
> For example, a turbo FC with the standard 4.89 rear end should
never
> be driven above 65 mph. It'll be over revving the engine. It'll
go
> there, quite easily. Many people confuse the governor with a rev-
> limiter and simply mat the pedal and point the coach down the road.
> It only takes one valve spring to stretch past it's limit and the
CAT
> will eat a valve. Seen it. These old speedometers and tachometers
> require adjustments for accuracy, I've seen that mistake too. Ever
> notice how many Wanderlodges are NOT on their original engine? One
> must take care of their Wanderlodge, it's not smart enough to take
> care of itself.
>
> Can anyone tell me the limitations on use of the Jacobs retarder in
> the 3rd and 4th positions? How 'bout the cool down time? Any
takers
> on the max speed and a good technique to manually downshift the
> Allison while climbing a hill to prevent lugging (4.89 rear end)?
> How 'bout for downshifting to help slow a steep descent and stay
out
> of the 3rd and 4th position on the retarder for extended periods
> (that's a hint for the first question, it's stated as 'short
periods
> of time'? So what's the maximum oil usage of the CAT? Along that
> line, about how long does it take before the oil dipstick will show
> an accurate reading? There's a lot of oil in there. Off the top
of
> your head, how do you check the transmission fluid level, engine
> running or shut down, hot or cold? Here's an essay question, what
> can you do if you're climbing a steep grade on a stunningly
beautiful
> narrow winding road, on a hot day and the engine alarm starts
buzzing
> with the light on, you guess that you're 3/4 the way to the top (a
> few miles to go) you take your eyes off the scenery, scan the
gauges,
> and see there's an overheat occurring (oh, and there's a logging
> truck and three cars behind you with no shoulder)? Extra credit,
> what temp is actually considered an overheat for the CAT? Extra,
> extra credit, what temp did the alarm come on?
>
> Nope, I'm not going to warranty a $200,000+ coach that I'm selling
> for under $40,000. If I was comfortable letting folks drive off
with
> this beast while financially covering their learning curve, I'd
start
> renting them out.
>
> Come to my home and spend some time with it and the documentation I
> offer combined with the touch and feel of quality workmanship, the
> depth of knowledge I posess, and the enjoyment I have, and the
normal
> anxieties will fade. Drive it down the road and the big grin you
> find yourself with after a few minutes melts away the concerns.
I've
> seen it. I've already had visitors just 'looking'.
>
> Keep in mind that at $38,500 this is by no means a new
Wanderlodge.
> There are always things to work on and maintenance to be done.
I'll
> go over all that in person with any potential buyer, and thus will
> begin the negotiations. I'll also let you stay as long as you like
> to learn about it, and answer any questions you have while owning
> it. I'll pit my Blue Box against anyone else's as far as depth of
> information available on this coach. So there's your warranty,
> arguably better than an actual monetary contract, I'd say, because
> we'll work together to insure you're comfortable with this coach,
and
> you can make the call.
>
> Gary Miller
> 83 FC 33 - For Sale
> Milwaukee area
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
> wrote:
> >
> > Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great
person.
> I
> > wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
> anxieties
> > in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express
> or
> > implied, as-is"
> >
> > I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> > confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay
for
> > the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
> > years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends
a
> > confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptromolandCa
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> > >
> > > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as
if
> > > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
> the 'deal'
> > > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> > > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> > >
> > > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires
> an
> > > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
> > work,
> > > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly.
These
> > > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
> workmanship
> > > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing
> in
> > > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
> casual
> > > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not
difficult
> to
> > > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
> > deal
> > > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> > >
> > > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> > changing
> > > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely
adore.
> I
> > > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least,
> and
> > > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife
> and
> > > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> > > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system
again,
> so
> > I
> > > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts,
I
> > > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
> > again,
> > > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50
> what
> > I
> > > had done when I was 38 on it.
> > >
> > > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> > > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for
> the
> > > better. There are more things to do, there always will be.
But
> > the
> > > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot
> day
> > > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
> vacation,
> > > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns
aren't
> > > part of a family vacation.
> > >
> > > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife
> and
> > > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those
friends
> > > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and
> condos
> > > together.
> > >
> > > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of
> mid
> > > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> > hundreds
> > > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact
> that
> > I
> > > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories
are
> > > worth it.
> > >
> > > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
> > which
> > > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and
laugh
> > > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
> bought
> > > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it
with
> > > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it
won't
> > be
> > > getting used.
> > >
> > > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented
meticulous
> > > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> > >
> > > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and
there
> > are
> > > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or
trouble
> > > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find
> that
> > I
> > > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and
I
> > > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> > > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> > >
> > > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd
say
> > this
> > > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
> money,
> > > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change
requiring
> me
> > > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to
> get
> > > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge
enthusiast,
> > and
> > > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> > direction.
> > >
> > > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on
> by.
> > > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me
to
> > > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident
that
> > in
> > > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to
> take
> > > her home.
> > >
> > > Gary Miller
> > > 83 FC 33
> > > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"

> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of
two
> > > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves;
not
> > > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> > trailer
> > > up
> > > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
> > sell
> > > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were
I
> > > expect
> > > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
> concluded
> > it
> > > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the
next
> > > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest
in
> > me
> > > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS,
> moving
> > > map
> > > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room
for
> a
> > > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for
a
> > > toad.
> > > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
> water,
> > in
> > > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> > > important
> > > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
> steal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast
> high92
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in
your
> > > price
> > > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold
and
> > 47k
> > > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal
> at
> > > that
> > > > figure.
> > > > > MH
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I
was
> > > > looking at
> > > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might
> do
> > > it.
> > > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an
idea
> > of
> > > > what
> > > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
> about
> > > that
> > > > and
> > > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
> able
> > to
> > > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for
what
> I
> > > > would
> > > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of
> 10.
> > > But
> > > > I
> > > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> > presentable
> > > BB
> > > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the
best
> > > you've
> > > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the
labor
> > > > yourself
> > > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
> > have
> > > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
> pics.
> > > > Blown
> > > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It
turned
> > out
> > > > to
> > > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge
air
> > > > cooler
> > > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
> change
> > > over
> > > > to
> > > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting
> real
> > > > close
> > > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did
all
> > the
> > > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs,
water
> > > > system,
> > > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of
the
> > > good
> > > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
> would
> > > be
> > > > a
> > > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach
needing
> > > > > nothing. At
> > > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > > prospects.
> > > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
> which
> > > have
> > > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers.
> See
> > > > > that's
> > > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> > restorations
> > > > and
> > > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
> > sell
> > > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> > seller
> > > > when
> > > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
> > buyer
> > > > > paying
> > > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's
a
> > > nice
> > > > > coach
> > > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> > exactly
> > > > the
> > > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
> there
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the
> Bill
> > > > Board
> > > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > > competition
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell
you
> > > about
> > > > > the
> > > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> > mailed
> > > > him
> > > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able
> to
> > > > figure
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
> > plus
> > > > > some.
> > > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
> > could
> > > > > easily
> > > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
> > $15K
> > > to
> > > > > get
> > > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> > > point.
> > > > If
> > > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required
> to
> > > > prove
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
> older
> > > > coach
> > > > > but
> > > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
> > there
> > > > of.
> > > > > So
> > > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> > looking
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not
my
> > > idea
> > > > of
> > > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> > > needed
> > > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > > refurbished
> > > > > > coaches.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
> > would
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one
that
> > was
> > > > > > advertised
> > > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
> buyer
> > > and
> > > > > seller
> > > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> > premium
> > > > for
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > > sell "average"
> > > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > > considered "market
> > > > > price".
> > > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
> > where
> > > > folks
> > > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
> going
> > to
> > > > pay
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
> coach
> > > > with
> > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
> > with
> > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
> more.
> > In
> > > > my
> > > > > > range I
> > > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
> > came
> > > to
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
> > value
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed
major
> > > work
> > > > I
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
> could
> > > get
> > > > > $50k.
> > > > > > On
> > > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
> wanting
> > > > $80k.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good
coach
> > > with
> > > > > almost
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all
have
> > > those)
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
> > tells
> > > me
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are
high,
> as
> > > are
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
> work
> > to
> > > > > make it
> > > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>