buyer beware

[mbulriss]

Greg,

It's up to each individual as to how to market their products.

Like your hypothesis, I was definitely comfortable in offering a
"warranty" coverage amount on Stagecoach when it was *first* offered
for sale. I negotiated a deal with Ralph to provide any needed
repairs up to a set amount. My warranty offer, my choice of trusted
repairs! I had no doubts in Stagecoach's ability to go cross country
at a moments notice. (I doubt the current owner has any doubts either
and Fred now has it for sale again so he can move on up....) Getting
home is a premium for me. Cosmetics can be easily changed, roadside
repairs are hassles.

However, I must tell you warranty offers are a waste of time in this
market and I subsequently dropped the warranty offer. Prospective
"buyers" only want to know "how much will you come down off the asking
price?", period. "How much you want for that Winnebago thingy?" is a
classic call that I hung up on. They compare quality products to
trash on eBay at bottom feeder prices (richly deserved in some cases -
you know, "minor fire in engine compartment" but nothing looks like
normal BB furnishings on the inside). My gut says Gary Miller's coach
is one of the top notch buys on the FC market right now and that he
will be there after the sale for questions, but he will be besieged
with "what's your bottom dollar?" questions regardless of the quality
differences in his rig versus a wholesale priced rig of dubious
heritage on a dealer's lot that knows nothing about Birds. Nature of
the market. Most buyers don't know what they are looking at to
differentiate quality versus money pits and compare all pricing to
eBay "norms". A few new prospective buyers on the forum are doing
the research, research, research they need to do to differentiate.
Hopefully, they will recognize an excellent buy when they see it and
jump on it, rather than seize the bottom priced money pit. The sweet
taste of the lowest price will become very bitter when the reality of
repairs set in. Pay me now or pay me later.

So while I agree with your 'put your money where your mouth is'
hypothesis, it is a waste of time and breath in the older used Bird
market IMO. Do your research, pick the best Bird you are comfortable
with, negotiate your deal and take you chances - even the best
maintained Bird can have a major trauma tomorrow, unknown to even the
best mechanic. Mechanical objects make no promises.

FWIW, YMMV, yadda, yadda......

Mike Bulriss
1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
San Antonio, TX



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> When I read a Bus for sale description listing all the great
> attributes and "Free Full Tank", I wonder what tank they proport full
> when they end "sold as is"
>
> Confidence is backing your claims up with bucks
>
> Arrogance is preparing an 'new operator fault excuse' for the
> possible failure of a sold product.
>
> I am truly arrogant that people sign on to read opinions I post but
> truly confident that they make better choices when many opinions are
> posted.
>
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomoland
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> >
> > I do not freekin' believe this. Because you did something, it
> should be standard procedure????
> > Serious arrogance.
> > MH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gregory OConnor
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:55 AM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> >
> >
> > Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great
> person. I
> > wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
> anxieties
> > in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express
> or
> > implied, as-is"
> >
> > I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> > confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay
> for
> > the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
> > years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
> > confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptromolandCa
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> > >
> > > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as
> if
> > > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
> the 'deal'
> > > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> > > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> > >
> > > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires
> an
> > > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
> > work,
> > > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> > > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
> workmanship
> > > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing
> in
> > > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
> casual
> > > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult
> to
> > > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
> > deal
> > > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> > >
> > > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> > changing
> > > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore.
> I
> > > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least,
> and
> > > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife
> and
> > > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> > > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system
> again, so
> > I
> > > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> > > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
> > again,
> > > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50
> what
> > I
> > > had done when I was 38 on it.
> > >
> > > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> > > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for
> the
> > > better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
> > the
> > > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot
> day
> > > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
> vacation,
> > > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> > > part of a family vacation.
> > >
> > > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife
> and
> > > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those
> friends
> > > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and
> condos
> > > together.
> > >
> > > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of
> mid
> > > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> > hundreds
> > > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact
> that
> > I
> > > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories
> are
> > > worth it.
> > >
> > > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
> > which
> > > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and
> laugh
> > > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
> bought
> > > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it
> with
> > > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it
> won't
> > be
> > > getting used.
> > >
> > > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented
> meticulous
> > > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> > >
> > > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and
> there
> > are
> > > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or
> trouble
> > > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find
> that
> > I
> > > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> > > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> > > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> > >
> > > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd
> say
> > this
> > > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
> money,
> > > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring
> me
> > > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to
> get
> > > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge
> enthusiast,
> > and
> > > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> > direction.
> > >
> > > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on
> by.
> > > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me
> to
> > > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
> > in
> > > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to
> take
> > > her home.
> > >
> > > Gary Miller
> > > 83 FC 33
> > > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of
> two
> > > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves;
> not
> > > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> > trailer
> > > up
> > > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
> > sell
> > > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were
> I
> > > expect
> > > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
> concluded
> > it
> > > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the
> next
> > > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest
> in
> > me
> > > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS,
> moving
> > > map
> > > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room
> for a
> > > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> > > toad.
> > > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
> water,
> > in
> > > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> > > important
> > > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
> steal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast
> high92
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> > > price
> > > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold
> and
> > 47k
> > > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal
> at
> > > that
> > > > figure.
> > > > > MH
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > > > looking at
> > > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might
> do
> > > it.
> > > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
> > of
> > > > what
> > > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
> about
> > > that
> > > > and
> > > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
> able
> > to
> > > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what
> I
> > > > would
> > > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of
> 10.
> > > But
> > > > I
> > > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> > presentable
> > > BB
> > > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> > > you've
> > > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > > > yourself
> > > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
> > have
> > > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
> pics.
> > > > Blown
> > > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
> > out
> > > > to
> > > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > > > cooler
> > > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
> change
> > > over
> > > > to
> > > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting
> real
> > > > close
> > > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
> > the
> > > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > > > system,
> > > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> > > good
> > > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
> would
> > > be
> > > > a
> > > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > > > nothing. At
> > > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > > prospects.
> > > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
> which
> > > have
> > > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers.
> See
> > > > > that's
> > > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> > restorations
> > > > and
> > > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
> > sell
> > > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> > seller
> > > > when
> > > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
> > buyer
> > > > > paying
> > > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> > > nice
> > > > > coach
> > > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> > exactly
> > > > the
> > > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
> there
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the
> Bill
> > > > Board
> > > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > > competition
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> > > about
> > > > > the
> > > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> > mailed
> > > > him
> > > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able
> to
> > > > figure
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
> > plus
> > > > > some.
> > > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
> > could
> > > > > easily
> > > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
> > $15K
> > > to
> > > > > get
> > > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> > > point.
> > > > If
> > > > > > you have something worth the money do the work required
> to
> > > > prove
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
> older
> > > > coach
> > > > > but
> > > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
> > there
> > > > of.
> > > > > So
> > > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> > looking
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> > > idea
> > > > of
> > > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> > > needed
> > > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > > refurbished
> > > > > > coaches.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
> > would
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
> > was
> > > > > > advertised
> > > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
> buyer
> > > and
> > > > > seller
> > > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> > premium
> > > > for
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > > sell "average"
> > > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > > considered "market
> > > > > price".
> > > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
> > where
> > > > folks
> > > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
> going
> > to
> > > > pay
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
> coach
> > > > with
> > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
> > with
> > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
> more.
> > In
> > > > my
> > > > > > range I
> > > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
> > came
> > > to
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
> > value
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> > > work
> > > > I
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
> could
> > > get
> > > > > $50k.
> > > > > > On
> > > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
> wanting
> > > > $80k.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> > > with
> > > > > almost
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> > > those)
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
> > tells
> > > me
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high,
> as
> > > are
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
> work
> > to
> > > > > make it
> > > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>