buyer beware

[Henry Jay Hannigan]

---Mike said it ALL!...can't we move on now......new subject......
Regards,
Hank Hannigan...still chillin in Vegas
90SP36









In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mbulriss" <mbulriss@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> It's up to each individual as to how to market their products.
>
> Like your hypothesis, I was definitely comfortable in offering a
> "warranty" coverage amount on Stagecoach when it was *first* offered
> for sale. I negotiated a deal with Ralph to provide any needed
> repairs up to a set amount. My warranty offer, my choice of trusted
> repairs! I had no doubts in Stagecoach's ability to go cross
country
> at a moments notice. (I doubt the current owner has any doubts
either
> and Fred now has it for sale again so he can move on up....)
Getting
> home is a premium for me. Cosmetics can be easily changed, roadside
> repairs are hassles.
>
> However, I must tell you warranty offers are a waste of time in this
> market and I subsequently dropped the warranty offer. Prospective
> "buyers" only want to know "how much will you come down off the
asking
> price?", period. "How much you want for that Winnebago thingy?" is
a
> classic call that I hung up on. They compare quality products to
> trash on eBay at bottom feeder prices (richly deserved in some
cases -
> you know, "minor fire in engine compartment" but nothing looks like
> normal BB furnishings on the inside). My gut says Gary Miller's
coach
> is one of the top notch buys on the FC market right now and that he
> will be there after the sale for questions, but he will be besieged
> with "what's your bottom dollar?" questions regardless of the
quality
> differences in his rig versus a wholesale priced rig of dubious
> heritage on a dealer's lot that knows nothing about Birds. Nature
of
> the market. Most buyers don't know what they are looking at to
> differentiate quality versus money pits and compare all pricing to
> eBay "norms". A few new prospective buyers on the forum are doing
> the research, research, research they need to do to differentiate.
> Hopefully, they will recognize an excellent buy when they see it and
> jump on it, rather than seize the bottom priced money pit. The
sweet
> taste of the lowest price will become very bitter when the reality
of
> repairs set in. Pay me now or pay me later.
>
> So while I agree with your 'put your money where your mouth is'
> hypothesis, it is a waste of time and breath in the older used Bird
> market IMO. Do your research, pick the best Bird you are
comfortable
> with, negotiate your deal and take you chances - even the best
> maintained Bird can have a major trauma tomorrow, unknown to even
the
> best mechanic. Mechanical objects make no promises.
>
> FWIW, YMMV, yadda, yadda......
>
> Mike Bulriss
> 1991 WB40 "Texas Minivan"
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
> wrote:
> >
> > When I read a Bus for sale description listing all the great
> > attributes and "Free Full Tank", I wonder what tank they proport
full
> > when they end "sold as is"
> >
> > Confidence is backing your claims up with bucks
> >
> > Arrogance is preparing an 'new operator fault excuse' for the
> > possible failure of a sold product.
> >
> > I am truly arrogant that people sign on to read opinions I post
but
> > truly confident that they make better choices when many opinions
are
> > posted.
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomoland
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> > <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I do not freekin' believe this. Because you did something, it
> > should be standard procedure????
> > > Serious arrogance.
> > > MH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gregory OConnor
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:55 AM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great
> > person. I
> > > wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the
> > anxieties
> > > in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty
express
> > or
> > > implied, as-is"
> > >
> > > I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
> > > confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to
pay
> > for
> > > the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the
first 2
> > > years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who
ends a
> > > confidence disortation with a disclosure.
> > > GregoryO'Connor
> > > 94ptromolandCa
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
> > > >
> > > > John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears
as
> > if
> > > > you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs.
> > the 'deal'
> > > > of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're
also
> > > > concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
> > > >
> > > > What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> > > > rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge
requires
> > an
> > > > enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the
actual
> > > work,
> > > > it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly.
These
> > > > coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy
> > workmanship
> > > > simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the
clashing
> > in
> > > > workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a
> > casual
> > > > observer if it's not done properly. While they're not
difficult
> > to
> > > > work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops
want to
> > > deal
> > > > with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
> > > >
> > > > What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
> > > changing
> > > > the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely
adore.
> > I
> > > > planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at
least,
> > and
> > > > had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my
wife
> > and
> > > > boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system,
I
> > > > considered that I never wanted to worry about that system
> > again, so
> > > I
> > > > cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right
parts, I
> > > > upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't
occur
> > > again,
> > > > and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit
50
> > what
> > > I
> > > > had done when I was 38 on it.
> > > >
> > > > I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized
that
> > > > better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things
for
> > the
> > > > better. There are more things to do, there always will be.
But
> > > the
> > > > major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a
hot
> > day
> > > > while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my
> > vacation,
> > > > they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns
aren't
> > > > part of a family vacation.
> > > >
> > > > I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my
wife
> > and
> > > > kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those
> > friends
> > > > don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins
and
> > condos
> > > > together.
> > > >
> > > > So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit
of
> > mid
> > > > 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
> > > hundreds
> > > > of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the
fact
> > that
> > > I
> > > > have enjoyed several family trips with it and those
memories
> > are
> > > > worth it.
> > > >
> > > > The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85'
rule
> > > which
> > > > states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and
> > laugh
> > > > about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I
> > bought
> > > > it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it
> > with
> > > > memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it
> > won't
> > > be
> > > > getting used.
> > > >
> > > > I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented
> > meticulous
> > > > upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
> > > >
> > > > I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and
> > there
> > > are
> > > > always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or
> > trouble
> > > > shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd
find
> > that
> > > I
> > > > rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge
and I
> > > > enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it
work
> > > > better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
> > > >
> > > > If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of,
I'd
> > say
> > > this
> > > > is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need
> > money,
> > > > it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change
requiring
> > me
> > > > to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being
told to
> > get
> > > > rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge
> > enthusiast,
> > > and
> > > > more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
> > > direction.
> > > >
> > > > I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> > > > transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come
on
> > by.
> > > > I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call
me
> > to
> > > > come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident
that
> > > in
> > > > a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want
to
> > take
> > > > her home.
> > > >
> > > > Gary Miller
> > > > 83 FC 33
> > > > Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one
of
> > two
> > > > > things: You are correct or we are both deluding
ourselves;
> > not
> > > > > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
> > > trailer
> > > > up
> > > > > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird
and
> > > sell
> > > > > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about
were
> > I
> > > > expect
> > > > > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have
> > concluded
> > > it
> > > > > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over
the
> > next
> > > > > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an
interest
> > in
> > > me
> > > > > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with
GPS,
> > moving
> > > > map
> > > > > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and
room
> > for a
> > > > > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need
for a
> > > > toad.
> > > > > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running
> > water,
> > > in
> > > > > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and
other
> > > > important
> > > > > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a
> > steal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leroy Eckert
> > > > > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > > > > Niceville, FL
> > > > > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---
forcast
> > high92
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in
your
> > > > price
> > > > > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the
sold
> > and
> > > 47k
> > > > > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real
deal
> > at
> > > > that
> > > > > figure.
> > > > > > MH
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I
was
> > > > > looking at
> > > > > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k
might
> > do
> > > > it.
> > > > > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an
idea
> > > of
> > > > > what
> > > > > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or
> > about
> > > > that
> > > > > and
> > > > > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be
> > able
> > > to
> > > > > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for
what
> > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out
of
> > 10.
> > > > But
> > > > > I
> > > > > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
> > > presentable
> > > > BB
> > > > > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the
best
> > > > you've
> > > > > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the
labor
> > > > > yourself
> > > > > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and
I
> > > have
> > > > > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line
> > pics.
> > > > > Blown
> > > > > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It
turned
> > > out
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge
air
> > > > > cooler
> > > > > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the
> > change
> > > > over
> > > > > to
> > > > > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm
getting
> > real
> > > > > close
> > > > > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did
all
> > > the
> > > > > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs,
water
> > > > > system,
> > > > > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of
the
> > > > good
> > > > > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > > > > Cold but true.
> > > > > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach
needing
> > > > > > nothing. At
> > > > > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> > > > prospects.
> > > > > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints
> > which
> > > > have
> > > > > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the
pushers.
> > See
> > > > > > that's
> > > > > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
> > > restorations
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely
to
> > > sell
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
> > > seller
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as
a
> > > buyer
> > > > > > paying
> > > > > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So
what's a
> > > > nice
> > > > > > coach
> > > > > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
> > > exactly
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on
the
> > Bill
> > > > > Board
> > > > > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > > > > competition
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell
you
> > > > about
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
> > > mailed
> > > > > him
> > > > > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been
able
> > to
> > > > > figure
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go
coach
> > > plus
> > > > > > some.
> > > > > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a
guy
> > > could
> > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an
additional
> > > $15K
> > > > to
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor
a
> > > > point.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > you have something worth the money do the work
required
> > to
> > > > > prove
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored
> > older
> > > > > coach
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the
proof
> > > there
> > > > > of.
> > > > > > So
> > > > > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
> > > looking
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its
not my
> > > > idea
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with
some
> > > > needed
> > > > > > > repairs will
> > > > > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > > > > refurbished
> > > > > > > coaches.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kerry,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most
people
> > > would
> > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one
that
> > > was
> > > > > > > advertised
> > > > > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between
> > buyer
> > > > and
> > > > > > seller
> > > > > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
> > > premium
> > > > > for
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > > > > sell "average"
> > > > > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> > > > considered "market
> > > > > > price".
> > > > > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished"
coaches
> > > where
> > > > > folks
> > > > > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't
> > going
> > > to
> > > > > pay
> > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a
> > coach
> > > > > with
> > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good
coach
> > > with
> > > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly
> > more.
> > > In
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > range I
> > > > > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value
I
> > > came
> > > > to
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full
market
> > > value
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed
major
> > > > work
> > > > > I
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they
> > could
> > > > get
> > > > > > $50k.
> > > > > > > On
> > > > > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were
> > wanting
> > > > > $80k.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good
coach
> > > > with
> > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all
have
> > > > those)
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value.
This
> > > tells
> > > > me
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are
high,
> > as
> > > > are
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of
> > work
> > > to
> > > > > > make it
> > > > > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>