Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings

[transit360]

So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones,
as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo
housing by the way.
Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely
opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side.
I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's
about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same
so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable
of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up
to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open
to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that
could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps.
However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that
means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus
the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter
under demand.
Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two
new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the
old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding
of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod.
Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It
looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so
it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I
drained out b/c it's already mixed properly?
I would really like to flush the system due to the
brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full
manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I
could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National
Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet.

Thanks
Steve
2 '98 QBRE Partybuses


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were
given. If you
> have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily
tell if your
> thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly.
WATCH the
> gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will
continue to
> climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the
engine is
> running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp
will start
> to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build
up until
> the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until
it
> stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running
the
> engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are
not
> closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out
cycling off
> and on then the thermostat is frozen shut.
> If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again
the
> thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the
radiator.
> Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the
coolant flow
> thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since
you will
> immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck.
>
> For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how
the
> cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it.
>
> tom
> 1982 FC35
> Vernon Center, NY
>
>
> At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> >George,
> >
> > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a
> >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out
> >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on
> >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This
current
> >problem is with a Bluebird.
> > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem,
> >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in
> >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus
> >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions.
> > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3
members
> >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the
> >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did.
> > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about
any
> >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I
> >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me
> >something to think about.
> > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as
well
> >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think
of
> >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead
> >of just throwing parts at an engine.
> > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat
> >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and
> >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and
dispose
> >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if
> >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help
do
> >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy
would
> >have paid for itself.
> >
> > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate
screwing
> >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the
majority's
> >advice.
> > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you
think a
> >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't
argue
> >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your
input.
> >
> >Steve
> >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12"
> ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a
> >professional
> > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master
> > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification,
> > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto
repair
> > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed
over
> > > 34,000 cars.
> > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this
thing
> >is
> > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish
> >baselines
> > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part
of
> >the
> > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning
> > > thermostats in place.
> > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break.
> > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me
and
> > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a
> > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more
questions.
> > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do
you
> >want
> > > to fix this thing?
> > >
> > > George Witt
> > > 81 FC 35
> > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > wrote:
> > > > Tom and George,
> > > >
> > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp
> >reading on
> > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around
200
> > > > degrees also.
> > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat
is.
> >I'm
> > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've
> >never
> > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to
find a
> > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer.
> > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant
> >flow,
> > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a
weak
> >water
> > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I
should be
> > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the
> >same
> > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate
it's
> > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible.
> > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always
run,
> > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if
the
> > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or
closed?
> >That
> > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat
the
> > > > engine?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve
> > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > >
> > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not
> >exhanging
> > > > heat.
> > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference
between
> >the
> > > > temp at
> > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more
> >then
> > > > likely
> > > > > because the thermostat is not open.
> > > > >
> > > > > tom
> > > > > 1982 FC35
> > > > > Vernon Center,Ny
> > > > >
> > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > > >Steve,
> > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current
flow
> > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat.
> > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water
> >flow.
> > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you
that
> > > > maybe
> > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly?
> > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the
> > > > thermostat
> > > > > >is working properly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George Witt
> > > > > > 81 FC 35
> > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was
> >getting
> > > > some
> > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE
Partybus. I
> >shot
> > > > the
> > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is
what
> >my
> > > > bus
> > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it
> >read 130
> > > > > > > degrees.
> > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun
> >several
> > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a
> >drastic
> > > > change
> > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-
20
> > > > degrees
> > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has
green
> >(safe)
> > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the
red.
> >My
> > > > bird
> > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this
> >normal?
> > > > Seems a
> > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins
as I
> >have
> > > > dealt
> > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My
other
> > > > Bluebird
> > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I
> >haven't
> > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----------
> > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Visit your group
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yah
oo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
> >
> > > > on the web.
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > > > > > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-
unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > > > > >
> >
<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------
> >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group
>
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum"
on the web.
> > *
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > *
> > subject=Unsubscribe>WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > *
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >----------