refrigerator problems

[Tom Warner]

Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are quoting
the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts when
the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you were
not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models are
much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
methods of cooling.

By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does not
come flying out in a hard maneuver?

tom
1982 FC35
vernon center,ny



At 11:45 PM 10/7/2005, you wrote:
>The 9.6 cu ft GE refrigerators annual electric usage is 338 kWh/year
>or less than 1kWh/day (925 watts); it doesn't pull a constant 15-
>amps. Shouldn't be much of a load for a good inverter and battery
>bank.
>
>Good luck
>
>Tim Hannink
>Winter Park, FL
>1981 FC-33SB
>
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>wrote:
> >
> > Doesnt sound good to me unless you are going to park in a RV park
> > every night and when you are on the road have a large battery bank
> > and large alternator. The small 9 cu ft Ge refrigerator with a
>manual
> > defrost pulls 15A at 120VAC when running or 1800Watts. Thats 150A
> > from your batteries.
> >
> > Tom
> > 1982 Fc35
> > Vernon Center,NY
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>SPONSORED LINKS
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Recr...;vehi\
cles&w2=Wanderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+dealer&w5=\
Used+recreational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=DAUkCKkU7Dzhn_\
ObWmSYTw>Recreational
>vehicles
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Wand...w2=Wa\
nderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+dealer&w5=Used+recre\
ational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=Z-8HJdysB3QLPj9U0JvqYQ>W\
anderlodge
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Auto...3;veh\
icles&w2=Wanderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+dealer&w5\
=Used+recreational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=IF4u_5wI8Pmy3\
4cC1O9CxA>Automotive
>maintenance
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Recr...tiona\
l+vehicles&w2=Wanderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+deal\
er&w5=Used+recreational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=z6_Xahae\
YHfELr6o72IW1A>Recreational
>vehicle dealer
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Used...ional\
+vehicles&w2=Wanderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+deale\
r&w5=Used+recreational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=UGEY5km4L\
-kXbDI4ZSadEw>Used
>recreational vehicles
><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Auto...vehic\
les&w2=Wanderlodge&w3=Automotive+maintenance&w4=Recreational+vehicle+dealer&w5=U\
sed+recreational+vehicles&w6=Automotive+radiators&c=6&s=163&.sig=ePNVMmISsCWgTnM\
q_4GlXA>Automotive
>radiators
>
>
>----------
>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
>
Wanderl\
odgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>----------

[erniecarpet@...]

We secured my refer by screwing it to the floor and by adjusting the top
shelf to fit tightly. The sidewalls were measured and adjusted so that we made a
real tight fit. This unit made it fine from Texas to Montana- 1650 miles-
over the "best" highways in the country!
Incidentally, I have installed 2 other apartment refers in my other coaches.
Since those were SOB coaches, they did not ride as well as the bird and the
refers stayed in place. Ernie-83pt40 in montana- with a 400 dollar refer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Julia Bonser]

We replaced our refrigerator last month with an apartment sized
refrigerator figuring we would run the generator if we dry camped.
This unit uses a lot less electricity than the RV one. The biggest
problem was getting it in through the front door.

Julie Bonser
1992 WLWB PT 40'



On Oct 7, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Rob Robinson wrote:

> Thanks Ernie. that's the info I needed.
> Rob, Sue & Merlin
> 94 WLWB
>
>
> Quoting erniecarpet@...:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Rob, its 120 volt- no problem with the batteries. we don't dry
>> camp, so no
>>
>> problem for us. If its hot out, we run the genny for the a/c's
>> anyway.
>> Ernie-
>>
>> 83pt40- beside the yellowstone river
>>
>

[Tim Hannink]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
>
> Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are
quoting
> the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts when
> the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
> would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you were
> not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models are
> much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
> methods of cooling.

Please don't accuse me of disseminating false information unless you
have something besides your own opinion to back up your statement.

Yes, a refrigerator uses a large amount of starting current but the
average 18 cu ft frost-free fridge uses 750-watts when running and
it runs approximately 1/3 of the time it is plugged in.

Information on the power usage of appliances is available all over
the internet from government sources, power utilities and appliance
manufacturers, so take your pick and do your own research.

> By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does not
> come flying out in a hard maneuver?

The same way an RV refrigerator is secured. Install a piece of angle
channel to the top and sides of the fridge and screw it to the
opening. I would also add additional rigid insulation to the walls
of the refrigerator compartment to fill in the gap between the sides
of the fridge and the compartment walls.

Good luck

Tim Hannink
Winter Park, FL
1981 FC-33SB

[Rob Robinson]

Tim I know Randy Dupree has a double door monster in his Bird that is 120V
only. If I remember correctly he can use his fridge without hook up to city
power for four or five days. He has six of those forklift L16 batteries and a
sophisticated electrical management system.
Rob, Sue & Merlin
94 WLWB


Quoting Tim Hannink :

>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are
>
> quoting
>
> > the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts when
>
> > the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
>
> > would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you were
>
> > not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models are
>
> > much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
>
> > methods of cooling.
>
>
>
> Please don't accuse me of disseminating false information unless you
>
> have something besides your own opinion to back up your statement.
>
>
>
> Yes, a refrigerator uses a large amount of starting current but the
>
> average 18 cu ft frost-free fridge uses 750-watts when running and
>
> it runs approximately 1/3 of the time it is plugged in.
>
>
>
> Information on the power usage of appliances is available all over
>
> the internet from government sources, power utilities and appliance
>
> manufacturers, so take your pick and do your own research.
>
>
>
> > By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does not
>
> > come flying out in a hard maneuver?
>
>
>
> The same way an RV refrigerator is secured. Install a piece of angle
>
> channel to the top and sides of the fridge and screw it to the
>
> opening. I would also add additional rigid insulation to the walls
>
> of the refrigerator compartment to fill in the gap between the sides
>
> of the fridge and the compartment walls.
>
>
>
> Good luck
>
>
>
> Tim Hannink
>
> Winter Park, FL
>
> 1981 FC-33SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
>
> Visit your group "WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[George Lowry]

Getting into the middle of this - I just checked the Amana 19 Cu Ft
refer that came standard in my coach. It has the ice maker/ice water
and is frost free. The data plate says it uses 9.8 amps @ 120 volts.
We have never had a problem while traveling or when parked, though we
do have a large battery bank which would be required in ANY all
electric coach. I know that we can cut energy consumption by turning
off the frost free feature but, the boss likes it.

BTW, in our converted coach, we had an electric Norcold 8 Cu Ft refer
and it only pulled 2.5 amps @ 120 volts and 9 amps at 12 volts. We
drove it for over ten years without any problems also.

BTW, we spend some time in Quartzsite boondocking as well as other
places. It can be done.

George Lowry
'95 WBDA 4203
Spearfish, SD Currently in NORCAL for Dr Appointments.

Tim Hannink wrote:

> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> wrote:
>
>>Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are
>
> quoting
>
>>the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts when
>>the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
>>would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you were
>>not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models are
>>much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
>>methods of cooling.
>
>
> Please don't accuse me of disseminating false information unless you
> have something besides your own opinion to back up your statement.
>
> Yes, a refrigerator uses a large amount of starting current but the
> average 18 cu ft frost-free fridge uses 750-watts when running and
> it runs approximately 1/3 of the time it is plugged in.
>
> Information on the power usage of appliances is available all over
> the internet from government sources, power utilities and appliance
> manufacturers, so take your pick and do your own research.
>
>
>>By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does not
>>come flying out in a hard maneuver?
>
>
> The same way an RV refrigerator is secured. Install a piece of angle
> channel to the top and sides of the fridge and screw it to the
> opening. I would also add additional rigid insulation to the walls
> of the refrigerator compartment to fill in the gap between the sides
> of the fridge and the compartment walls.
>
> Good luck
>
> Tim Hannink
> Winter Park, FL
> 1981 FC-33SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Refrigerator Topic gets HOT .Tim and Tom, the two of you provide all
of us a great wealth of information on many topics in the past.It is
quite obvious that you both are very intelligent and helpful people.
On these forums we learn actual first hand info from "I tried that
and" type of experiances. Please continue the heated discussion as
the good helpful friends you two are to all of us. Dry camp, full
hook up Walmart parkers, average lenth of trip, and how many sixpacks
you need to keep cool are all factors that must be considered in your
reefer upgrade.

Tim, when do you rely on government sources, power utilities and
appliance manufacturers for information? Tom, "energy star
propoganda", ? its an advertisment
Gregory O'Connor
94pt40
with a cold sixpack of diet pepsi and Miller Gen Draft, mustard , 1/2
used relish jar and ice in the freezer

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Hannink"
wrote:
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> wrote:
> >
> > Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are
> quoting
> > the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts
when
> > the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
> > would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you
were
> > not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models
are
> > much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
> > methods of cooling.
>
> Please don't accuse me of disseminating false information unless
you
> have something besides your own opinion to back up your statement.
>
> Yes, a refrigerator uses a large amount of starting current but the
> average 18 cu ft frost-free fridge uses 750-watts when running and
> it runs approximately 1/3 of the time it is plugged in.
>
> Information on the power usage of appliances is available all over
> the internet from government sources, power utilities and appliance
> manufacturers, so take your pick and do your own research.
>
> > By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does
not
> > come flying out in a hard maneuver?
>
> The same way an RV refrigerator is secured. Install a piece of
angle
> channel to the top and sides of the fridge and screw it to the
> opening. I would also add additional rigid insulation to the walls
> of the refrigerator compartment to fill in the gap between the
sides
> of the fridge and the compartment walls.
>
> Good luck
>
> Tim Hannink
> Winter Park, FL
> 1981 FC-33SB
>

[Tim Hannink]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:

> Tim, when do you rely on government sources, power utilities and
> appliance manufacturers for information?

I rely on those information sources as a consumer when shopping for
products. FWIW, I am the type of person who will read the owners
manual for a product before I purchase it. Just looking at the
information on the product itself is not enough; it represents the
worst-case or maximum output scenario in most cases.

That's why the other tag is on an appliance, the one that shows the
amount of energy used by this appliance in a year. It factors in the
starting and running current for the appliance as well is the
cycling time to give you a number you can use for comparison
purposes. Other factors, quality of design and materials, e.g. also
show themselves in this number when it is compared to a similar
product from a different manufacturer.

I got the energy usage data for this particular GE refrigerator from
the manufacturers website. AFAIK, this appliance is not "Energy
Star" rated so I'm not sure how that even applies to this discussion.

Thanks,

Tim Hannink
Winter Park, FL
1981 FC-33SB

[Tom Warner]

Tim its difficult to understand where you are coming from since you
use numbers like 750 watts and 1/3 of the time etc but don't say
where you got this information from. But to set the record straight
I did not accuse you of disseminating false information. So lets
discuss just 2 facts.

1. The energy guide numbers noted on appliances are seldom
accurate. Where do I get that? http://tinyurl.com/8fd8z

Understand the Energy Guide and Energy Star labels. The Energy
Guide tag you'll see on dishwashers is meant to show how much water
and energy a particular model is likely to use. However, Consumer
Reports tests have found that those numbers tend to underestimate
real-life consumption. Likely reason for this discrepancy: The
government tests with cleaner dishes than we do and assumes that
consumers run fewer than 322 loads per year. The Energy Star labeling
program cites dishwashers that are 25 percent more energy efficient
than the minimum government standards. Consumer Reports doesn't
highlight which models carry the Energy Star label but bases its
dishwasher ratings on its own, more rigorous testing. See the
<http://www.eco-labels.org/greenconsumers...dishwasher>Green
Ratings section.

2. Almost all refrigerators manufactured today ARE energy star rated.
Where did I get that from? http://tinyurl.com/bn2qx

Energy Star
According to the government, As of January 1, 2004, all refrigerators
and refrigerator-freezers 7.75 cubic feet or greater in volume must
be 15% more efficient than required by the minimum federal standard
in order to meet the Energy Star criteria. Residential freezers 7.75
cubic feet or greater must be 10% more efficient than required by the
minimum federal standard in order to meet the Energy Star criteria.
All refrigerators and/or freezers less than 7.75 cubic feet in volume
and 36 inches or less in height must be 20% more efficient than
required by the minimum federal standard in order to meet the Energy
Star criteria .

Now the bottom line and this is my opinion. If I were
contemplating buying a motorhome such as a Bluebird I would
immediately shy away from anyone that had a regular household
refrigerator installed, for two reasons.

1. I would figure that the person who had installed it, is attempting
to save money and if they saved money on a refrigerator they might be
doing the same thing on the coaches maintenance.

2, I want a refrigerator that is economical and efficient to operate
when boon docking. In other words I want one that can be operated on
propane, battery or 120VAC without running my generator for long
periods of time. And the addition of large expensive battery banks
with associated chargers/inverters is not economical or desirous in
my opinion. But then this is my personal preference and it may differ
from yours.

Tom Warner
1982 FC35
Vernon Center,NY


At 10:47 AM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
>wrote:
> >
> > Tim that would be nice if it were true but its not. You are
>quoting
> > the energy star propoganda. It actually pulls over 1800 watts when
> > the compressor starts. The hotter it got the more the compressor
> > would run and it would quickly run your batteries down if you were
> > not connected to a power source or on generator. The RV models are
> > much more efficient having better insulation and more efficient
> > methods of cooling.
>
>Please don't accuse me of disseminating false information unless you
>have something besides your own opinion to back up your statement.
>
>Yes, a refrigerator uses a large amount of starting current but the
>average 18 cu ft frost-free fridge uses 750-watts when running and
>it runs approximately 1/3 of the time it is plugged in.
>
>Information on the power usage of appliances is available all over
>the internet from government sources, power utilities and appliance
>manufacturers, so take your pick and do your own research.
>
> > By the way how do you secure a regular refrigerator so it does not
> > come flying out in a hard maneuver?
>
>The same way an RV refrigerator is secured. Install a piece of angle
>channel to the top and sides of the fridge and screw it to the
>opening. I would also add additional rigid insulation to the walls
>of the refrigerator compartment to fill in the gap between the sides
>of the fridge and the compartment walls.
>
>Good luck
>
>Tim Hannink
>Winter Park, FL
>1981 FC-33SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----------
>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group
> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
>
Wanderl\
odgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>----------

[Tim Hannink]

OK, I'll bite. My replys will be interspaced between your comments

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
>
> Tim its difficult to understand where you are coming from since
you
> use numbers like 750 watts and 1/3 of the time etc but don't say
> where you got this information from.

<http://www.psnh.com/Residential/ReduceBi...eusage.asp>
<http://www.otpco.com/SaveEnergyMoney/app...yUsage.asp>
<http://www.city.ames.ia.us/ElectricWeb/e...iances.htm>

Those were three that came up in a Yahoo!Search for 'Appliance
Energy Usage'

> But to set the record straight
> I did not accuse you of disseminating false information.
>
> So lets discuss just 2 facts.
>
> 1. The energy guide numbers noted on appliances are seldom
> accurate. Where do I get that? http://tinyurl.com/8fd8z
>
> Understand the Energy Guide and Energy Star labels. The Energy
> Guide tag you'll see on dishwashers is meant to show how much
water
> and energy a particular model is likely to use. However, Consumer
> Reports tests have found that those numbers tend to underestimate
> real-life consumption. Likely reason for this discrepancy: The
> government tests with cleaner dishes than we do and assumes that
> consumers run fewer than 322 loads per year. The Energy Star
labeling
> program cites dishwashers that are 25 percent more energy
efficient
> than the minimum government standards. Consumer Reports doesn't
> highlight which models carry the Energy Star label but bases its
> dishwasher ratings on its own, more rigorous testing. See the
> <http://www.eco-labels.org/greenconsumers/ratings.cfm?
product=dishwasher>Green
> Ratings section.

Hmmm, dishwashers vs refrigerators. I went to the refrigerator
section of that same website and didn't see the same opinion on
their ratings for refrigerators. Did I miss something?

> 2. Almost all refrigerators manufactured today ARE energy star
rated.

That may (or may not) be true, but the GE model I found that most
closely matched the one we were talking about was here:

<http://products.geappliances.com/ProdCon...ispatcher?
REQUEST=ITEMID&itemid=310805_gms10aar_c2>

The EnergyGuide sticker is here:
<http://products.geappliances.com/ProdCon...ispatcher?
REQUEST=ITEMID&itemid=GMS10AAR>

No EnergyStar qualification here.

> Where did I get that from? http://tinyurl.com/bn2qx

This link wouldn't work for me. Here is a link to the Energy Star
website <http://www.energystar.gov/> and a definition of what it
takes to have an refrigerator Energy Star Qualified.

Just for fun, I went to the GE website <http://www.geappliances.com> and
did a little research.

Out of 140 side-by-side refrigerators, 87 are Energy Star Qualified
Out of 6 side-by-side built-in refrigerators, 6 are Energy Star
Qualified
Out of 90 top freezer refrigerators, 25 are Energy Star Qualified
Out of 43 bottom freezer refrigerators, 37 are Energy Star Qualified
None of the 7 compact or the 2 partial and manual defrost
refrigerators are Energy Star Qualified.

I guess it depends on your definition of "almost all"

> Energy Star
> According to the government, As of January 1, 2004, all
refrigerators
> and refrigerator-freezers 7.75 cubic feet or greater in volume
must
> be 15% more efficient than required by the minimum federal
standard
> in order to meet the Energy Star criteria. Residential freezers
7.75
> cubic feet or greater must be 10% more efficient than required by
the
> minimum federal standard in order to meet the Energy Star
criteria.
> All refrigerators and/or freezers less than 7.75 cubic feet in
volume
> and 36 inches or less in height must be 20% more efficient than
> required by the minimum federal standard in order to meet the
Energy
> Star criteria .
>
> Now the bottom line and this is my opinion. If I were
> contemplating buying a motorhome such as a Bluebird I would
> immediately shy away from anyone that had a regular household
> refrigerator installed, for two reasons.
>
> 1. I would figure that the person who had installed it, is
attempting
> to save money and if they saved money on a refrigerator they might
be
> doing the same thing on the coaches maintenance.

I can think of a lot of other items I would look at before the
refrigerator to determine the maintenance level of the coach. Mine
actually came with a 12-VDC marine fridge (NovaKool) which will run
for a week on my aux. batteries. It performs well as a refrigerator
but marginally as a freezer. It uses a 12-vdc Danforth compressor
and R-134a.

My personal experiences with Dometic 3-way refrigerators (especially
the propane-way) has not been positive (VW Campers). The two-way
Dometic (12VDC/120VAC) in my current Camper is excellent.

> 2, I want a refrigerator that is economical and efficient to
operate
> when boon docking. In other words I want one that can be operated
on
> propane, battery or 120VAC without running my generator for long
> periods of time. And the addition of large expensive battery banks
> with associated chargers/inverters is not economical or desirous
in
> my opinion. But then this is my personal preference and it may
differ
> from yours.

True, my coach already has separate house and chassis batteries; I
have added battery isolation and an inverter/charger. The primary
reason was to run the rear roof air without running the genset.