M380 Hurricane Heater

[cmillsap]

(02-21-2013 13:40)Arcticdude Wrote:  Sure am glad I've got an AquaHot!

Ah, don't be to glad. An Aquahot is no panacea either. I had one in my previous LXi. Lots of problems keeping them running also. The Hurricane is very similar to an Aquahot. Actually, The Hurricane is performing flawlessly, It's the distribution system that BB put in the coach that's the problem.

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(02-21-2013 14:20)pgchin Wrote:  Thanks Chuck, I hear ya!: But if we did not have a challenge to work, our brain would turn to mush!!!!!!;)hahahahaha, but yes sometimes they can be a pain and a BIG pain!!!! I also agree about flushing and direction. Hey, what if you close zone 1 and force all through zone 2.......easy enough to try without too much work, no?????????? This way the circulation pump it dedicated to zone 2 only to force the air out, if there is any???????

Pete,
In the pic I posted, you will see a yellow handled manual valve on the supply lines after a tee. that valve shuts off the front zone that is working properly. BB had to install that tee to reduce the flow to the smaller front circuit so that more fluid would would be routed to zone 2 which is a much longer loop with more registers. Closing that valve completely does dedicate the pumped fluid only to zone 2. I've tried that to no avail. George said that valve should remain in the half closed position to properly balance the circuits

[pgchin]

OK Chuck, Thanks
So I studied the picture again. I see the yellow handle after the tee which is what I think you are talking about. The other 2 yellow handle tees directly under the red handle valve, is each one the return side of each zone? The reason for the question is if they are, then you can attach a hose to zone 2 and put it in a pail, shut zone 1 and see if the circulator is pushing fluid though zone 2 or not. You still won't be able to determine if it is a blockage or an air pocket if it isn't, BUT it will determine that you will have to amp it up and actually isolate zone 2 and back flush it or physically inspect it, all big deals of time and effort. They always say when something stops working, go back to the last thing you touched. I presume you can't do that as I reread your first post and you stated this was an issue from the start but did the prior owner or dealer happen to mention any interior work? If they did some, maybe they kinked a hose or register accidentally in zone 2 and you can examine that one first????? I'm stretching here ole pal, this appears to be a duzzie!!!!! And I hate calling in a professional only as a last resort!!!!!!!!

[cmillsap]

(02-21-2013 15:01)pgchin Wrote:  OK Chuck, Thanks
So I studied the picture again. I see the yellow handle after the tee which is what I think you are talking about. The other 2 yellow handle tees directly under the red handle valve, is each one the return side of each zone? The reason for the question is if they are, then you can attach a hose to zone 2 and put it in a pail, shut zone 1 and see if the circulator is pushing fluid though zone 2 or not. You still won't be able to determine if it is a blockage or an air pocket if it isn't, BUT it will determine that you will have to amp it up and actually isolate zone 2 and back flush it or physically inspect it, all big deals of time and effort. They always say when something stops working, go back to the last thing you touched. I presume you can't do that as I reread your first post and you stated this was an issue from the start but did the prior owner or dealer happen to mention any interior work? If they did some, maybe they kinked a hose or register accidentally in zone 2 and you can examine that one first????? I'm stretching here ole pal, this appears to be a duzzie!!!!! And I hate calling in a professional only as a last resort!!!!!!!!

Yes, those are the valves that open the hose bibs. both are on the same return line going back to the hurricane. Both circuits flow through a tee before the hose bibs. If you look at the pic again, you will see the green line attached to a tee left top corner of the metal panel and hose bibs.That's the return line fron zone 2. Look closely and you will see another hose coning to that tee that the green hose is attached to. That is the return line for zone 1. The tee is behind the metal plate and hard to see. The green hose in front stays cold when the unit is running, the hose in the rear is hot when the unit is running.

[Itchintogo]

From what Chuck explained and from what I can see with the picture (and I don't know squat about Hurricane heaters BTW) I think Chuck could take the Zone 2 hose ( the one with no valve at the TEE and I will come back to this) off and shut the red valve. Then he could flush only zone 2 out and the coolant would empty out of the left hand hose bib. Similarly he could flush through zone 1 by disconnecting the hose with the yellow handle and with the red valve off it too would evacuate from the left hose bib.

Then he could back flush the heating unit by reverse flushing from the hot feed and still with the red valve shut he could open the right hose bib and evacuate from there and not contaminate the zones. Or attach a hose to the right bib and flush out the heater and evacuate at the feed line just before the Tee. Depending which direction he wanted to go.

All of this and because there are so few hours usage makes me think there is a valve somewhere in zone 2 that is shut off. Air is a good thought as well. I wonder why BB would install a yellow valve for Zone 1 and nothing for Zone 2? If you had a leak in zone 2 you would have no way of shutting it off. That does not make sense to me. So at a minimum I would install a yellow valve in zone 2 for that. But I suspect there is one somewhere you have not found yet.

Chuck I don't know who you bought the coach from but any chance you can phone the PO? This valve or valves may be closer to the register or at the return tee where it goes back to one return line. Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

[Arcticdude]

Gary,
I'll bet the zone 1 valve is a BB add on after they realized that it flowed much better than zone 2 and needed a restriction in zone 1 to equalize the flow to both zones. Could be wrong, but if GM is saying there isn't a valve, I would not be looking for a valve.

Chuck,
Just joking about the AH! And, have you ever had heat out of zone 2 while you've owned her? If not, the air blockage or a kinked hose would be my thoughts. Any chance the PO never used the heat?

[cmillsap]

(02-21-2013 15:27)Itchintogo Wrote:  From what Chuck explained and from what I can see with the picture (and I don't know squat about Hurricane heaters BTW) I think Chuck could take the Zone 2 hose ( the one with no valve at the TEE and I will come back to this) off and shut the red valve. Then he could flush only zone 2 out and the coolant would empty out of the left hand hose bib. Similarly he could flush through zone 1 by disconnecting the hose with the yellow handle and with the red valve off it too would evacuate from the left hose bib.

Then he could back flush the heating unit by reverse flushing from the hot feed and still with the red valve shut he could open the right hose bib and evacuate from there and not contaminate the zones. Or attach a hose to the right bib and flush out the heater and evacuate at the feed line just before the Tee. Depending which direction he wanted to go.

All of this and because there are so few hours usage makes me think there is a valve somewhere in zone 2 that is shut off. Air is a good thought as well. I wonder why BB would install a yellow valve for Zone 1 and nothing for Zone 2? If you had a leak in zone 2 you would have no way of shutting it off. That does not make sense to me. So at a minimum I would install a yellow valve in zone 2 for that. But I suspect there is one somewhere you have not found yet.

Chuck I don't know who you bought the coach from but any chance you can phone the PO? This valve or valves may be closer to the register or at the return tee where it goes back to one return line. Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

Good ideas, Gary.

I do not believe there is another valve on the supply line to zone 2. If there is, it's d**n well hidden. I think(and George Morris concurs) that the valve on zone 1 was an after thought by BB because zone 1 is so short it builds less head pressure on the fluid. That was robbing the fluid from the longer and more restrictive (4 registers) running to the rear of the coach. The Huricane is located in bay 1 on the drivers side, so zone 2 has to be at least about 4 times as long. George says that valve need to be about half closed to balance out the fluid flow to both circuits.

Although the BB engineers did good work building the M380, they missed the boat on a few items.

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(02-21-2013 15:43)Arcticdude Wrote:  Gary,
I'll bet the zone 1 valve is a BB add on after they realized that it flowed much better than zone 2 and needed a restriction in zone 1 to equalize the flow to both zones. Could be wrong, but if GM is saying there isn't a valve, I would not be looking for a valve.

Chuck,
Just joking about the AH! And, have you ever had heat out of zone 2 while you've owned her? If not, the air blockage or a kinked hose would be my thoughts. Any chance the PO never used the heat?

You're got it right about the valve being an add on. I ran the Hurricane during the inspection when I bought the coach, however I may not have checked all the registers, I just can't remember.

The Hurricane only has 300 hours on it and it was owned by a Dr. in Florida. I doubt it was used enough for the P.O. to realize there was a problem. Plus here in AZ, I never needed to pay much attention to it to make sure it was working properly. I just happened to find the problem when we were in Las Vegas last week and needed a little heat in the coach. I found that not only did I have a problem with the hydronic heater, one of the electric heaters didn't work either.

"O Well"... Just another day in the life of a Wanderlodge owner.

[davidbrady]

(02-21-2013 12:54)cmillsap Wrote:  Thank, Peter,

The tees are plain old 1" brass and have no valve mechanism. I am not anxious to try to bleed the system through the bleeder screws on the registers. I agree with you and believe the best way to remove the blockage wheather it is air or debris is to backflush the system with water and replace the fluid. There are fittings available on the system to do this as shown in the pic below. You can see there are two hose bibs and a shutoff valve inbetween the two hose bibs. This is installed on the return line between the the tee and the HH unit.

I'm a little concerned to backflush the system first (through the left hose bib) as the reverse flowing fluid will flow back through the expansion tank in the unit before exiting the unit and the right hose bib. This because if it is debris blocking the flow, I may contaminate the expansion tank. So I think I will try pushing the fluid through the unit first (as it normally flows) and therefore push any debris out the left hose bib into the bucket.

I swear, owning Wanderlodge is full of challenges............

Hey Chuck,

I just read some of the Hurricane installation manual and they do suggest using a pressure pump to bleed the system. You disconnect the inlet and outlet hoses connecting to the expansion tank. Submerge the inlet hose into a 5 gal bucket of coolant, splice the pressure pump into the outlet hose, put a hose on the return bib and put the other end in a 5 gal bucket. Turn the pump on and force fluid thru the system.

The manual doesn't say anything about check valves so they may not exist. The manual does say that the installer needs to measure head pressure at each loop and size the water pump appropriately.

If there is air in loop 2 maybe the pump can't over come the head. When the loop is primed the static pressure is zero and the pump can easily do it's job. Chuck, it may be that it doesn't work because loop 2 lost it's prime and the pump can't over come the head? You may need to bleed loop 2.

[cmillsap]

quote='davidmbrady' pid='391' dateline='1361479875']

(02-21-2013 12:54)cmillsap Wrote:  [/color]Thank, Peter,

The tees are plain old 1" brass and have no valve mechanism. I am not anxious to try to bleed the system through the bleeder screws on the registers. I agree with you and believe the best way to remove the blockage wheather it is air or debris is to backflush the system with water and replace the fluid. There are fittings available on the system to do this as shown in the pic below. You can see there are two hose bibs and a shutoff valve inbetween the two hose bibs. This is installed on the return line between the the tee and the HH unit.

I'm a little concerned to backflush the system first (through the left hose bib) as the reverse flowing fluid will flow back through the expansion tank in the unit before exiting the unit and the right hose bib. This because if it is debris blocking the flow, I may contaminate the expansion tank. So I think I will try pushing the fluid through the unit first (as it normally flows) and therefore push any debris out the left hose bib into the bucket.

I swear, owning Wanderlodge is full of challenges............

Hey Chuck,

I just read some of the Hurricane installation manual and they do suggest using a pressure pump to bleed the system. You disconnect the inlet and outlet hoses connecting to the expansion tank. Submerge the inlet hose into a 5 gal bucket of coolant, splice the pressure pump into the outlet hose, put a hose on the return bib and put the other end in a 5 gal bucket. Turn the pump on and force fluid thru the system.
[/i]
David, BB provided hose bibs on the return line with an isolation valve in between (see pic in post above), so it's an easy hook up although I don't have a pressure pump available, Maybe I can rent one from the local rental yard.

The manual doesn't say anything about check valves so they may not exist. The manual does say that the installer needs to measure head pressure at each loop and size the water pump appropriately.

If there is air in loop 2 maybe the pump can't over come the head.

When the loop is primed the static pressure is zero and the pump can easily do it's job. Chuck, it may be that it doesn't work because loop 2 lost it's prime and the pump can't over come the head? You may need to bleed loop 2.

David, I'ved traced the way the plumbing runs. Zone 2 runs first to a single fan register in the privy then back to the register under the bed and then back over to another single fan register in the bath then crosses over to the register by the dinett and back to the HH. (I think). Zone 2 supply line is hot to that first register in the privy and goes cold coming out of that register.
[/quote]

There is no way to get to the privy register or the bath register without cutting a much larger hole in the floor under an ajoining closet with drawers underneath.

I was able to bleed the registers in the bedroom and dinett but there was very little fluid pressure at the bedroom pressure and none at the dinett register which I now believe is last one in the loop.

So it looks like the hot fluid is stopped at the privy register.

I decided it was time to quit for the day when as I was lying on the floor with a flashlight, I dropped the d***ed thing on my mouth and broke the cap on my two front teeth. Now you can call me "Snagglepuss".

[davidbrady]

(02-21-2013 22:39)cmillsap Wrote:  I decided it was time to quit for the day when as I was lying on the floor with a flashlight, I dropped the d***ed thing on my mouth and broke the cap on my two front teeth. Now you can call me "Snagglepuss".[/i]

Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that Chuck. You're not alone, I've done similar dental damage while working on the bus. I also tend to put my flashlight in my mouth (sort of a third hand), there's gotta be long term effects with that too...

Maybe I'm way out there, but I'm thinking that the pump may generate enough head pressure to rise to the first register in the privy, but then it runs out of juice and you get no flow - all you get is a column of stagnant coolant. My theory is the loop needs to be bled. If it were bled then the system is balanced, the loss of lifting the fluid is given back by the descending fluid and the pump ends up doing very little work, just friction loss work. Sorry, if I'm speaking to the choir. I sometimes have a tendency to overstate. Now, how do we prove that the loop has air in it w/o making a big mess in the living quarters? If it's like mine the loop is translucent PEX. If you hold a strong LED flash light to various places along the loop you should be able to see fluid inside the tube.

I guess bleeding would also help rule out the possibility of an obstruction. If there's no obstruction and the system is bled and still no heat, then a weak pump would be the only thing left.

[cmillsap]

(02-21-2013 22:57)davidmbrady Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 22:39)cmillsap Wrote:  I decided it was time to quit for the day when as I was lying on the floor with a flashlight, I dropped the d***ed thing on my mouth and broke the cap on my two front teeth. Now you can call me "Snagglepuss".[/i]

Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that Chuck. You're not alone, I've done similar dental damage while working on the bus. I also tend to put my flashlight in my mouth (sort of a third hand), there's gotta be long term effects with that too...

Maybe I'm way out there, but I'm thinking that the pump may generate enough head pressure to rise to the first register in the privy, but then it runs out of juice and you get no flow - all you get is a column of stagnant coolant. My theory is the loop needs to be bled. If it were bled then the system is balanced, the loss of lifting the fluid is given back by the descending fluid and the pump ends up doing very little work, just friction loss work. Sorry, if I'm speaking to the choir. I sometimes have a tendency to overstate. Now, how do we prove that the loop has air in it w/o making a big mess in the living quarters? If it's like mine the loop is translucent PEX. If you hold a strong LED flash light to various places along the loop you should be able to see fluid inside the tube.

I guess bleeding would also help rule out the possibility of an obstruction. If there's no obstruction and the system is bled and still no heat, then a weak pump would be the only thing left.

David, the lines are Pex like, but they are pretty soft. They maybe a polyethylene or polypropylene or even vinyl. They are just hose clamped at some places. The lines are totally covered with split loom and almost impossible to access in most places. I think a pressure pump will push the air out if in fact it is air. If it's an obstruction, the most likely spots would be at the entrance of register copper coils. reversing the procedure may clear the obstruction, if that's the problem.