Residential fridges

[Gregory OConnor]

When a motorhome passes from dealership to dealership the good
batteries dont pass with the motorhome. not saying that dealers are
bad or in the wrong just saying you should ask to find a coach on
the lot to switch batteries with befor you write the check.

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> Pete, I note that in the past you've said similar things, and
suggested they were the reason your batteries were shot when you
purchased your Bird.
>
> Having purchased a new RV in the past with shot batteries I
understand that is not uncommon to find bad batteries at purchase.
Salesmen are very poor at leaving coaches hooked up, and they
routinely run the batteries to full discharge (10.5 volts or so); no
battery likes that very much. Your coach sat on at least two lots
prior to your purchase, and that's a possible explanation, but not
charge voltages.
>
> I think if you review the Link 2000 manual you will find that what
you quote below is AGM float at 120 degrees, and Liquid float at 70
degrees. Apples and Oranges.
>
> At 70 degrees, Wet-Cells are 13.5, and AGM 13.3. At 80 degrees
they float at an identical 13.1. Nowhere is there enough difference
to damage an AGM with wet-cell settings, and AGM manufacturers
generally don't make strenuous pleas for owners to have programmable
controllers - the difference will at most be a small amount of
battery life.
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> Posting today by satellite with AGM power in Quartzsite, letting
the voltage drop to 11.9 before charging (by choice)
>
> On 2/6/2008 at 5:34 PM Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> >Nope... AGMs must be charged at a lower voltage to avoid damage.
I
> >note that the Link 2000R would float at about 13.5 volts with the
wet
> >cell setting, but floats at 12.9 volts with the AGMs. (The
charging
> >rate is preprogramed -- you simply (well, it's not _that_ simple)
set
> >the kind (wet, AGM, gel cell) and the battery size (amp hour
rating)
> >into the controller and it chooses to do whatever it is it does.)
> >
> >The dual inverters in my coach have 4 breakers that control what
they
> >serve. I've not gone to the trouble to figure out what each
breaker
> >serves individually.
> >
> >I can see the advantage of having a smaller, true sine wave (my
> >inverters are modified sine wave, which is less efficient for
the
> >refrigerator) dedicated to the refrigerator.
> >
> >While parked in Oregon, I checked temperatures in the
refrigerator
> >during the day (when the generator was unusable) and it took
about 6
> >hours for the interior to get into the 'danger' zone on the
> >refrigerator thermometer I use.
> >
> >Pete Masterson
> >'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
> >El Sobrante CA
> >aeonix1@...
> >
> >
> >
> >On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Ross MacKillop wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Pete,
> >> Aren't the charger settings for AGM the same as Lead/acid.?
(not
> >> like Gel)
> >> The new 450 LXi has a single smaller inverter for the fridge
(1500
> >> true sine wave.) I turn the 2, 3600 watt ones off and turn the
> >> fridge down(really up) for night.
> >> Ross
> >> Palm Desert
> >> ..<snip>
>

[Mike Hohnstein]

I know a particularly 'thrifty' fellow who got by with a derelict RV reefer for years, used ice. Blocks when he could get them, other wise a 20# bag. His beer was pretty cold.

MH

----- Original Message -----

From: "jaxdon@cox.net"

To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"

Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:12 PM

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Residential fridges

The residential type sound good.. I dont have any experience with a
replacment, but several years ago, our Dometic crapped out in the
first week of a 2 month trip. Emergency time! We went to Home Depot
and bought a 2.5cuft Bar type. Strapped it to the dinette table with
a motorcycle tiedown, and economised on the cold items. It got us
through our trip, by 110v hookups in KOAs and running the gennie.
Worked OK till we got home, and were able to replace the Dometic.
Jack & Donna Smith
1973FC31
SoCal

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "birdshill123"
...> wrote:
>
> House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time. Having
> owned a ton of RV's over the years with propane units I can certainly
> see why. The propane fridges have a short life span, are very
> expensive, lots of board problems, expensive to repair, cooling
> troubles when not level or in extreme heat and small interiors. Modern
> refrigerators are very energy efficient and do not need the starting
> current of yesteryear. I was told by an upper level mgr. at Fleetwood
> that they expect Dometic and Norcold will have house type fridges in
> the near future as they are loosing sales to domestic mfrs. When
> looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's units
> with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super efficient. I
> would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you pleased
> with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a few days?
> What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with this
> option? Any problems?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
> 1988 FC35
>

[erniecarpet@...]

In a message dated 2/6/2008 11:33:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, MHOHNSTEIN@... writes:

'thrifty' fellow

Mike-- you should not reveal all your personal secrets!! LOL-

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Weatherford, Tx

---

Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

[Dorn Hetzel]

There are refrigerator/freezer setups intended for sailboats that can hold their cold for *days* between power usage if you don't open the doors.

The prices will make you flinch and they're mostly custom built, but in the context of what a recent BB costs, maybe not that scary.


There are also AC units from some of the same vendors that can run for 8 to 12 hours on a battery bank (some of these are intended for the commercial
truck market to avoid the all-night idling with it's horrid fuel wastage at truck stops)


For myself, with the propane fridge and stove in our unit, I'm seriously considering replacing my barely working generator with another
600 lbs of batteries and a small portable generator for charging those...


Dorn Hetzel
77FC35
Hogansville, GA

On Feb 7, 2008 12:33 AM, Mike Hohnstein <"MHOHNSTEIN@wi.rr.com"> wrote:

I know a particularly 'thrifty' fellow who got by with a derelict RV reefer for years, used ice. Blocks when he could get them, other wise a 20# bag. His beer was pretty cold.

MH

----- Original Message -----

From: "jaxdon@cox.net"

To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"

Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:12 PM

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Residential fridges

The residential type sound good.. I dont have any experience with a
replacment, but several years ago, our Dometic crapped out in the
first week of a 2 month trip. Emergency time! We went to Home Depot
and bought a 2.5cuft Bar type. Strapped it to the dinette table with
a motorcycle tiedown, and economised on the cold items. It got us
through our trip, by 110v hookups in KOAs and running the gennie.
Worked OK till we got home, and were able to replace the Dometic.
Jack & Donna Smith
1973FC31
SoCal

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "birdshill123"
wrote:
>
> House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time. Having
> owned a ton of RV's over the years with propane units I can certainly
> see why. The propane fridges have a short life span, are very
> expensive, lots of board problems, expensive to repair, cooling
> troubles when not level or in extreme heat and small interiors. Modern
> refrigerators are very energy efficient and do not need the starting
> current of yesteryear. I was told by an upper level mgr. at Fleetwood
> that they expect Dometic and Norcold will have house type fridges in
> the near future as they are loosing sales to domestic mfrs. When
> looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's units
> with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super efficient. I
> would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you pleased
> with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a few days?
> What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with this
> option? Any problems?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
> 1988 FC35
>

[Richard Gideon]

How dreadfully middle class!!

Dick Gideon
1989 35FC
On the road, Canyon Lake, TX

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
<MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
>
> I know a particularly 'thrifty' fellow who got by with a derelict
RV reefer for years, used ice. Blocks when he could get them, other
wise a 20# bag. His beer was pretty cold.
> MH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack & Donna Smith
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:12 PM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Residential fridges
>
>
> The residential type sound good.. I dont have any experience with
a
> replacment, but several years ago, our Dometic crapped out in the
> first week of a 2 month trip. Emergency time! We went to Home
Depot
> and bought a 2.5cuft Bar type. Strapped it to the dinette table
with
> a motorcycle tiedown, and economised on the cold items. It got us
> through our trip, by 110v hookups in KOAs and running the gennie.
> Worked OK till we got home, and were able to replace the Dometic.
> Jack & Donna Smith
> 1973FC31
> SoCal
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "birdshill123"
> wrote:
> >
> > House type fridges are becoming more prevelant all the time.
Having
> > owned a ton of RV's over the years with propane units I can
certainly
> > see why. The propane fridges have a short life span, are very
> > expensive, lots of board problems, expensive to repair, cooling
> > troubles when not level or in extreme heat and small interiors.
Modern
> > refrigerators are very energy efficient and do not need the
starting
> > current of yesteryear. I was told by an upper level mgr. at
Fleetwood
> > that they expect Dometic and Norcold will have house type
fridges in
> > the near future as they are loosing sales to domestic mfrs.
When
> > looking at some BB's advertised on the net I see some mid 90's
units
> > with house fridges. These are older fridges and not super
efficient. I
> > would like to hear from BB owners with this option? Are you
pleased
> > with the fridge? Do you have problesm when boondocking for a
few days?
> > What does BB supply for battery power and invereter size with
this
> > option? Any problems?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bruce
> > 1988 FC35
> >
>

[Ryan Wright]

On Feb 6, 2008 7:34 PM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
>
> My first misconception was that when the LP refer was run on 110ac,
> a compressor took over. I now know that on 110ac power, the 110
> runs a heater that boils the ammonia just like the Lp gas flame
> did.

I did not know this. Thanks for sharing, Greg. I now understand why I
could not keep my fridge cold while parked on a slope one day. I shut
down the gas and started up the generator immediately when we parked
out of level, knowing the gas would not be happy with the out of level
situation. The fridge slowly warmed up during the day and I didn't
understand why, just assumed it was the 100 degree weather outside.

-Ryan
'86 PT-40 8V92

[Pete Masterson]

OK... I do concede that the batteries were, no doubt, likely to have been seriously abused by the dealers. Indeed, the former owner mentioned that when he left the dealer (in Oregon) who accepted the trade, that "every light was left on" and it was not hooked up to shore power. 

I observe that the dealer (Mr. Oliver's) who had the coach when I bought it, does keep every coach on his lot attached to shore power. (Indeed, he 'grumbled' about the cost of electricity during our conversations.)

It's been a while since I went through the Link 2000R manual -- but I originally found the system in "default" mode after taking delivery -- and it took me an additional 4 months, or so, to figure out how the Link controller worked. (What with every thing else I was learning about the beast.) I carefully followed the instructions to set the Link controller for AGM batteries. The only significant difference I see is that the float voltage as shown on the display went to 12.95 volts vs. 13.5 volts in the default setting. The only parameter (necessary) that was changed was AGM vs. wet cell. 

I've subsequently found the information booklet for the AGM batteries  and I see what you're referring to. Now, I'm wondering why the Link controller is charging at such a low voltage, since at current ambient temperatures the float voltage should be about 14.6 instead of 12.9 <sigh> ... I guess I'll have to go back to the Link controller materials and try to figure it out.

I guess my main point is, as a practical matter, the 6 large batteries I have do not power my coach for very long before the voltage drops quite significantly, causing concern that battery damage will soon follow. Apparently, the major draw is from the home-style 22 cu ft, 1995 model two door, side-by side Amana refrigerator.f

For whatever reason, as received, the batteries didn't seem to be holding their charge very well. However, the replacements aren't significantly better.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Don Bradner wrote:

Pete, I note that in the past you've said similar things, and suggested they were the reason your batteries were shot when you purchased your Bird.

Having purchased a new RV in the past with shot batteries I understand that is not uncommon to find bad batteries at purchase. Salesmen are very poor at leaving coaches hooked up, and they routinely run the batteries to full discharge (10.5 volts or so); no battery likes that very much. Your coach sat on at least two lots prior to your purchase, and that's a possible explanation, but not charge voltages.

I think if you review the Link 2000 manual you will find that what you quote below is AGM float at 120 degrees, and Liquid float at 70 degrees. Apples and Oranges.

At 70 degrees, Wet-Cells are 13.5, and AGM 13.3. At 80 degrees they float at an identical 13.1. Nowhere is there enough difference to damage an AGM with wet-cell settings, and AGM manufacturers generally don't make strenuous pleas for owners to have programmable controllers - the difference will at most be a small amount of battery life.

Don Bradner

90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"

Posting today by satellite with AGM power in Quartzsite, letting the voltage drop to 11.9 before charging (by choice)

On 2/6/2008 at 5:34 PM Pete Masterson wrote:

Nope... AGMs must be charged at a lower voltage to avoid damage. I  

note that the Link 2000R would float at about 13.5 volts with the wet  

cell setting, but floats at 12.9 volts with the AGMs. (The charging  

rate is preprogramed -- you simply (well, it's not _that_ simple) set  

the kind (wet, AGM, gel cell) and the battery size (amp hour rating)  

into the controller and it chooses to do whatever it is it does.)

The dual inverters in my coach have 4 breakers that control what they  

serve. I've not gone to the trouble to figure out what each breaker  

serves individually.

I can see the advantage of having a smaller, true sine wave (my  

inverters are modified sine wave, which is less efficient for the  

refrigerator) dedicated to the refrigerator.

While parked in Oregon, I checked temperatures in the refrigerator  

during the day (when the generator was unusable) and it took about 6  

hours for the interior to get into the 'danger' zone on the  

refrigerator thermometer I use.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Ross MacKillop wrote:

Hi Pete,

Aren't the charger settings for AGM the same as  Lead/acid.? (not  

like Gel)

The new 450 LXi has a single smaller inverter for the fridge (1500  

true sine wave.) I turn the 2, 3600 watt ones off and turn the  

fridge down(really up) for night.

Ross

Palm Desert

..<snip>

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[Pete Masterson]

FWIW, the batteries I received in my coach were the very ones that the previous owner installed. DEKA brand AGMs. At 140 lbs. each and with their huge size, they're not that practical for a dealer to swap in-out of the coach. So long as the batteries seem to work, a dealer isn't going to fiddle with them.

Of course, smaller, more common size batteries might give a dealer more incentive to mess with.

===============================================

Pete Masterson, Author of

Book Design and Production: A Guide for Authors and Publishers

"Aeonix1@Mac.com"

Aeonix Publishing Group    http://www.aeonix.com

===============================================

On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:41 PM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

When a motorhome passes from dealership to dealership the good 

batteries dont pass with the motorhome. not saying that dealers are 

bad or in the wrong just saying you should ask to find a coach on 

the lot to switch batteries with befor you write the check.

GregoryO'Connor

94ptRomolandCa

[Gregory OConnor]

Pete it is good that you look for the cause of a failure like your
assumption that the batteries were not maintained while at the
dealership. On an old bus like yours there are phantom loads that
require more attention than new high end coaches. I do think that
there would be more incentive to switch out a 140#/ $400.00 battery
then a 45#/$70 battery. either way it was likely discharge that
compramised the set that followed your coach.

I wonder what makes a newer compressor style fridge more efficient
than the pre 134 '95 in your bus???? Maybe you can just change out
the compressor and not remove the icebox cabinet???? avoid removing
the windshield and all that.

GregoryO'Connor
circa 1994pt
RomolandCa


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> FWIW, the batteries I received in my coach were the very ones
that
> the previous owner installed. DEKA brand AGMs. At 140 lbs. each
and
> with their huge size, they're not that practical for a dealer to
swap
> in-out of the coach. So long as the batteries seem to work, a
dealer
> isn't going to fiddle with them.
>
> Of course, smaller, more common size batteries might give a
dealer
> more incentive to mess with.
> ===============================================
> Pete Masterson, Author of
> Book Design and Production: A Guide for Authors and Publishers
> Aeonix1@...
> Aeonix Publishing Group http://www.aeonix.com
> ===============================================
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:41 PM, Gregory OConnor wrote:
>
> > When a motorhome passes from dealership to dealership the good
> > batteries dont pass with the motorhome. not saying that dealers
are
> > bad or in the wrong just saying you should ask to find a coach on
> > the lot to switch batteries with befor you write the check.
> >
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> >
>

[Dorn Hetzel]

Some of the things that can make newer refrigerators and freezers more efficient
are better insulation materials that were not previously available and more efficient
motors based on newer high strength magnetic materials. Also fancier electronic

motor controls can reduce the amount of power needed to do a given amount of
mechanical work (compressing).

Regards,

Dorn Hetzel
77FC35
Hogansville, GA

On Feb 7, 2008 5:21 PM, Gregory OConnor <"Gregoryoc@aol.com"> wrote:

Pete it is good that you look for the cause of a failure like your

assumption that the batteries were not maintained while at the

dealership. On an old bus like yours there are phantom loads that

require more attention than new high end coaches. I do think that

there would be more incentive to switch out a 140#/ $400.00 battery

then a 45#/$70 battery. either way it was likely discharge that

compramised the set that followed your coach.



I wonder what makes a newer compressor style fridge more efficient

than the pre 134 '95 in your bus???? Maybe you can just change out

the compressor and not remove the icebox cabinet???? avoid removing

the windshield and all that.



GregoryO'Connor

circa 1994pt

RomolandCa

--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", Pete Masterson

wrote:

>

> FWIW, the batteries I received in my coach were the very ones

that

> the previous owner installed. DEKA brand AGMs. At 140 lbs. each

and

> with their huge size, they're not that practical for a dealer to

swap

> in-out of the coach. So long as the batteries seem to work, a

dealer

> isn't going to fiddle with them.

>

> Of course, smaller, more common size batteries might give a

dealer

> more incentive to mess with.

> ===============================================

> Pete Masterson, Author of

> Book Design and Production: A Guide for Authors and Publishers

> Aeonix1@...

> Aeonix Publishing Group http://www.aeonix.com

> ===============================================

>

>

> On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:41 PM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

>

> > When a motorhome passes from dealership to dealership the good

> > batteries dont pass with the motorhome. not saying that dealers

are

> > bad or in the wrong just saying you should ask to find a coach on

> > the lot to switch batteries with befor you write the check.

> >

> > GregoryO'Connor

> > 94ptRomolandCa

> >

> >

>