"TO tow or not to tow, that is the question"

[Don Bradner]

In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven years ago, I got
myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border crossing. I told them I
couldn't back up attached, and they had to close down that lane while we
unhooked the toad.

In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad education.

Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short, sometimes 50
feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the vehicles that were
pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to back on the same curve to
keep the toad steer tires from turning against the caster, but I've even backed
with toad tires fully swung sideways, slowly skidding them (on a loose surface).
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do!

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:

>Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.

[richafranco]

Al,

Thanks for the info. So really the ideal vehicle to pull is a 4wd,
maybe kinda light and maybe even some type of scooter on the back of the
4wd? Do you have any photos of your set-up?

Rich
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Al Scudder
wrote:
>
>
> Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad. There is one bar that you
can but it will have some limitations to do that. Look at FMCA
Classifieds and look for it or in Motorhome. Scooter are a blast. Our
set up is a Tahoe or a Trailblazer we have both with the aux brake from
M&G hooked up to the coach air brakes. with a runaway feature that would
be a must. But we also have 2 Yamahas on the back of thew Toad. they are
on a platform andf ride nicely on the back. They are easy to take off
and on so that if you are just camping one night at at =ime you can take
the toad and the scooters or you can take just the scooters and leave
the next morning with out too much difficulty. Look at the Chevrolet
lines for the past thee or four years and most are towable 4 down. all 4
wheel drives are 4 down. the van and the crossovers are 4 down also.
make sure that if you choose a toad from a list of models make sure that
you have the YEAR SPECIFIC on the potential Toad. Transmissions change
sometimes and one year vs the next might not work.
>
> Scooter 2000LX MIchigan
>
> Packin up for G.L.A.S.S. Berrien Springs, MI, Shipshewana, IN,
Streetsboro, OH
>
> Honk if ya see the Yamaha training wheels
>
>
>
>
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> From: nytexcel@...
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:03:04 +0000
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: "TO tow or not to tow, that is the
question"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rich, one thing to look at specifically, that Pete mentioned, if
you're going to be full-timing, or even semi-full-timing, is the size of
the bath and kitchen, and how they can annoy you after awhile. I totally
agree, and can easily see where that would become the biggest issue,
even within just a few weeks. Now, even the older `birds tend to have ok
sized galleys, but the bathrooms are smaller, especially the sinks, and,
boy, are their showers small! Look carefully at those when you attend a
rally, maybe even ask if you can stand in the shower, and imagine that
for months at a time! The shower in my SP is plenty roomy, and I
remounted the showerhead up high. It's nice. And the swing-wall bath is
a wonderful thing! I don't know if you're interested in more info about
considering a motorcycle instead of towing a car, or if you're even into
bikes at all, but here's some thoughts on it. From what I understand,
the biggest hassle with toads, is not all these hardware issues and
expenses that have been detailed on this thread, but the fact that you
can't (hardly) back up. The benefits, of course, are that it seats 4,
it's more comfy, with heat and AC, and you're in out of the rain. But
I'm figuring that if it's really bad weather, I'm probably not going to
go-see-do much that day, anyway. So for me, the fun of the bike, and the
benefits of no-tow, outweigh the drawbacks. By the way, our Vespa has
tons of lockable storage. Plenty for camera gear, I'm sure, because you
can fit two full face helmets under the seat, plus a little more room
under there, and then there's the whole extra accessory trunk, which is
huge as well. We have put 8 bags of groceries in this scooter! Oh, and
we use 4 electric bicycles when we have 2 guests, to bike into town, see
the sites, etc., they're great! `Sorry this is so long, -just some more
food for thought.
>
>
>
>
> \/\/\ Fred
> __________________
> Fred & Wendy Bellows
> Queen Creek, AZ (so.east Phx)
> '90 SP36
> "Maunder Maximum"
> photos of coach and upgrades
> current location
>

[richafranco]

Don,

Thanks for the info. I guess if you gotta backup, you gotta do it!

Rich
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner"
wrote:
>
> In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven years
ago, I got myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border
crossing. I told them I couldn't back up attached, and they had to close
down that lane while we unhooked the toad.
>
> In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad education.
>
> Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short,
sometimes 50 feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the
vehicles that were pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to
back on the same curve to keep the toad steer tires from turning against
the caster, but I've even backed with toad tires fully swung sideways,
slowly skidding them (on a loose surface). Sometimes you just have to do
what you have to do!
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
>
> On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:
>
> >Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.
>

[Jack & Donna Smith]

I have wondered about backing with the Toad, especially if you put the Wife get
into the Toad and have her steer? (Might be much easier and safer just to
unhook). Otherwise, I have backed up as far as a foot or so..................
Jack Smith
1973FC31
SoCal
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner" wrote:
>
> In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven years ago, I
got myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border crossing. I told them
I couldn't back up attached, and they had to close down that lane while we
unhooked the toad.
>
> In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad education.
>
> Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short, sometimes 50
feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the vehicles that were
pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to back on the same curve to
keep the toad steer tires from turning against the caster, but I've even backed
with toad tires fully swung sideways, slowly skidding them (on a loose surface).
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do!
>
> Don Bradner
> 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
>
> On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:
>
> >Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.
>

[Al Scudder]

I guess that I will have to get into WakMart parking area and practice that ......after I take up my rugs, toys, bbq, roll up the old awnings....watch out don't run over the sludge from the pump out ......just kidding....I am a kidder ya no.



Scooter 2000LX Ocqueoc, MI

---

To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
From: bluethunder@...
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:02:11 -0700
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: "TO tow or not to tow, that is the question"

In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven years ago, I got myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border crossing. I told them I couldn't back up attached, and they had to close down that lane while we unhooked the toad.

In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad education.

Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short, sometimes 50 feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the vehicles that were pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to back on the same curve to keep the toad steer tires from turning against the caster, but I've even backed with toad tires fully swung sideways, slowly skidding them (on a loose surface). Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do!

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:

>Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.

[Al Scudder]

Rich, I see if I can do it this weekend

scooter 2000LX

---

To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
From: BigRichPho@...
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:25 +0000
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: "TO tow or not to tow, that is the question"

Al,

Thanks for the info. So really the ideal vehicle to pull is a 4wd,
maybe kinda light and maybe even some type of scooter on the back of the
4wd? Do you have any photos of your set-up?

Rich
--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", Al Scudder ...>
wrote:
>
>
> Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad. There is one bar that you
can but it will have some limitations to do that. Look at FMCA
Classifieds and look for it or in Motorhome. Scooter are a blast. Our
set up is a Tahoe or a Trailblazer we have both with the aux brake from
M&G hooked up to the coach air brakes. with a runaway feature that would
be a must. But we also have 2 Yamahas on the back of thew Toad. they are
on a platform andf ride nicely on the back. They are easy to take off
and on so that if you are just camping one night at at =ime you can take
the toad and the scooters or you can take just the scooters and leave
the next morning with out too much difficulty. Look at the Chevrolet
lines for the past thee or four years and most are towable 4 down. all 4
wheel drives are 4 down. the van and the crossovers are 4 down also.
make sure that if you choose a toad from a list of models make sure that
you have the YEAR SPECIFIC on the potential Toad. Transmissions change
sometimes and one year vs the next might not work.
>
> Scooter 2000LX MIchigan
>
> Packin up for G.L.A.S.S. Berrien Springs, MI, Shipshewana, IN,
Streetsboro, OH
>
> Honk if ya see the Yamaha training wheels
>
>
>
>
> To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"
> From: nytexcel@...
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:03:04 +0000
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: "TO tow or not to tow, that is the
question"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rich, one thing to look at specifically, that Pete mentioned, if
you're going to be full-timing, or even semi-full-timing, is the size of
the bath and kitchen, and how they can annoy you after awhile. I totally
agree, and can easily see where that would become the biggest issue,
even within just a few weeks. Now, even the older `birds tend to have ok
sized galleys, but the bathrooms are smaller, especially the sinks, and,
boy, are their showers small! Look carefully at those when you attend a
rally, maybe even ask if you can stand in the shower, and imagine that
for months at a time! The shower in my SP is plenty roomy, and I
remounted the showerhead up high. It's nice. And the swing-wall bath is
a wonderful thing! I don't know if you're interested in more info about
considering a motorcycle instead of towing a car, or if you're even into
bikes at all, but here's some thoughts on it. From what I understand,
the biggest hassle with toads, is not all these hardware issues and
expenses that have been detailed on this thread, but the fact that you
can't (hardly) back up. The benefits, of course, are that it seats 4,
it's more comfy, with heat and AC, and you're in out of the rain. But
I'm figuring that if it's really bad weather, I'm probably not going to
go-see-do much that day, anyway. So for me, the fun of the bike, and the
benefits of no-tow, outweigh the drawbacks. By the way, our Vespa has
tons of lockable storage. Plenty for camera gear, I'm sure, because you
can fit two full face helmets under the seat, plus a little more room
under there, and then there's the whole extra accessory trunk, which is
huge as well. We have put 8 bags of groceries in this scooter! Oh, and
we use 4 electric bicycles when we have 2 guests, to bike into town, see
the sites, etc., they're great! `Sorry this is so long, -just some more
food for thought.
>
>
>
>
> \/\/\…Fred
> __________________
> Fred & Wendy Bellows
> Queen Creek, AZ (so.east Phx)
> '90 SP36
> "Maunder Maximum"
> photos of coach and upgrades
> current location
>

[Pete Masterson]

Backing with a toad is doable, if there is soft/loose soil/gravel, if the tires swing the wrong way. I've done it a few times for rather short distances. Some cars with less caster might stay stable for a longer backing distance. -- Years ago, I can recall test driving a used car with minimal caster and excessively strong power steering. I was used to letting my car 'find itself' while straightening out on a turn -- but that one, had to be moved back to "straight ahead." (I didn't buy that car...)

Indeed, some older Subarus are not suitable for use as a toad due to insufficient caster -- they won't tow reliably on a tow bar.

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

Photos:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bluebirdzoom/PeteMasterson#

On May 19, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Jack & Donna Smith wrote:

I have wondered about backing with the Toad, especially if you put the Wife get into the Toad and have her steer? (Might be much easier and safer just to unhook). Otherwise, I have backed up as far as a foot or so..................
Jack Smith
1973FC31
SoCal
--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", "Don Bradner" wrote:

In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven years ago, I got myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border crossing. I told them I couldn't back up attached, and they had to close down that lane while we unhooked the toad.

In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad education.

Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short, sometimes 50 feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the vehicles that were pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to back on the same curve to keep the toad steer tires from turning against the caster, but I've even backed with toad tires fully swung sideways, slowly skidding them (on a loose surface). Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do!

Don Bradner

90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"

My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:

Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.

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[Pete Masterson]

Galley size is a big issue. Yes, 'birds tend to have OK sized galleys -- but if you have a 'from scratch' cook (as I do) it can be a little restrictive for a lot of vegetable chopping and other more elaborate food preparation tasks. My wife also likes to cook 2 or 3 meals ahead (to reheat in the microwave) -- and the small oven/cooktop make that more of a challenge for her.

Showers (and bath rooms generally) are usually OK in the WB 'birds and the walk through type work pretty well. But, over time, the lack of size tends to "get to you." It's the simple things -- dropped the soap, once, hit my head on the shower door handle while picking it up and ended up with a big bloody hole in my scalp. (No stitches required, but it was clearly something I've never experienced at home.)

It's true -- with a toad, you generally can't back up -- or not more than 4 or 5 feet, mostly. The toad's front wheels are stable in the forward direction due to the "caster" in the steering geometry. This natural stability works against you when going in reverse. The front wheels can turn the "wrong" way in reverse and potentially, the forces can bend and ruin the tow bar. Putting a spouse in the car to steer is a poor idea, as the forces unleashed can cause the steering wheel to turn very rapidly and without warning. It is unlikely that most people could overpower the forces. It is a potential injury.

One soon learns, when toad is attached, it's a one-way drive. In the past 3 years, we've had to do 'emergency unhooks' about 3 or 4 times. My wife helps, and we've gotten an unhook down to about 2 to 3 minutes, or less. (A rubber hammer can help, if the pins are a trifle uncooperative.) As I've gained experience, emergency unhooks have become rare -- in the past 18 months, we never had to do one...

Pete Masterson

'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42

El Sobrante CA

"aeonix1@mac.com"

Photos:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bluebirdzoom/PeteMasterson#

On May 19, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Fred Bellows wrote:

Rich, one thing to look at specifically, that Pete mentioned, if you're going to be full-timing, or even semi-full-timing, is the size of the bath and kitchen, and how they can annoy you after awhile. I totally agree, and can easily see where that would become the biggest issue, even within just a few weeks. Now, even the older `birds tend to have ok sized galleys, but the bathrooms are smaller, especially the sinks, and, boy, are their showers small!

<snip>

From what I understand, the biggest hassle with toads, is not all these hardware issues and expenses that have been detailed on this thread, but the fact that you can't (hardly) back up.<snip>

[richafranco]

Susan,

thread #43159 is a good place to start with my quest. I'm just
starting to explore the possiblities and trying to learn as much as I
can. An amazing group with an amazing storehouse of knowledge!

Rich
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, bizisphoto@... wrote:
>
> No, Rich....no sister at all. I do shoot but only for fun and don't
have
> a personal web site.
> I must have missed your earlier questions....are you looking for a bus
or
> do you have one already? I got in on the tow question thread.
> Susan
> M380
> New Orleans
>
>
> In a message dated 5/19/2009 10:11:24 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> BigRichPho@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Susan,
>
> Did you have a sister here in Orlando maybe? Anyway, are you a
shooter?
> Do you have a web site?
>
> Rich
> --- In _WanderlodgeForum@WanderlodgeFWan_
> (mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com) , bizisphoto@, biz
> >
> > Yes, Rich....similar name for sure. There are lots of Guidrys in
South
> > Louisiana. My husband was Rod Guidry....he passed away in '96 and my
> son
> > David runs the business now. I still go to work just because I love
> the
> > place.....but would always rather being out in the Bird.
> > Susan
> > M380
> > New Orleans
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/19/2009 9:30:03 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> > BigRichPho@ BigRichPho@
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Susan,
> >
> > Last night I mentioned I knew a John Guidry. Well, much latter I
> > realized WRONG, sorry and it was a Joe Guider! Pretty close though.
> And
> > I visited you site and very nice place, I must say,
> >
> > Rich
> > --- In _WanderlodgeForum@ --- In _Wan
> > (mailto:_WanderlodgeForum@WanderlodgeFWan_
> (mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com) ) , Susan Guidry
> bizisphoto@biz
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Rich,
> > > I tow a Honda CRV with no modification. I tow a Honda CRV with no
> modifi
> > > out http://www.remco.com for info. They have a list of cars that can be
> > > towed 4 down
> > > and tell you which modifaction is needed if any.
> > > I have a little in common with you....photography !! I own a large
> > > camera and imagining place in New Orleans. I checked out your web
> > > site.....very nice work,
> > > I might say.
> > > Susan Guidry
> > > Lakeside Camera Photoworks
> > > http://www.lakesidecamera.
> > > 2007 M380
> > > New Orleans, La.
> > >
> > > On May 18, 2009, at 6:54 PM, richafranco wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the link to FMCA, I'll head over there. How expensive
> is
> > it
> > > > to modify, say my Expedition to be towable? I had a Jeep,
actually
> > 2.
> > > > The first one was the worst vehicle I've ever owned and also the
> > first
> > > > year, 1984 that it came out, Cherokee, 4wd. After I traded it in
3
> > > > years
> > > > later, I bought a 2 door, 2wd and it was great.
> > > >
> > > > It would need to be used, I over the new car years, what would
you
> > > > recommend in a used, under $8,000 or so?
> > > >
> > > > Rich
> > > > --- In _WanderlodgeForum@ --- In _Wan
> > (mailto:_WanderlodgeForum@WanderlodgeFWan_
> (mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com) ) , "Don Bradner"
> > > > bluethunder@
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The primary source of information is a special towing guide
> every
> > > > January in the FMCA magazine. They have it on their site at
> > http://www.fmca.com
> > > > - you have to join the site to read it, but I think you can do
so
> > > > without paying anything.
> > > > >
> > > > > We towed a Hyundai Santa Fe for 4 years (current models cannot
> be
> > > > towed without modification, but older ones with manual
> > > > transmissions/ transmissions/2-wheel drive could), but
moved
> to a
> > > > we
> > > > took up geocaching and needed reasonable off-road/dirt road
> > > > capability.
> > > > There are a tiny number of Jeep products that can't be towed
> without
> > > > mods, but generally they are only ones with 2-wheel-drive.
4-wheel
> > > > Jeep
> > > > products almost always have a transfer case with a Neutral
> position.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since almost anything can be towed with after-market
> modifications
> > > > there is almost nothing you won't see being towed in your
travels.
> I
> > > > would say, though, that the Jeep line is probably the highest
> number
> > > > of
> > > > any single brand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don Bradner
> > > > > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Liberty
> > > > > My location: http://www.bbirdmaps. My locati My locat
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/18/2009 at 10:47 PM richafranco wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Steve,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Thanks and I'll check out the magazines, never thought of
that,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************ **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. S
> Easy
> > Steps!
> >
>
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>

[richafranco]

Jack,

Thanks for the reply. Any photos of your 73FC31 around?

Rich
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jack & Donna Smith"
wrote:
>
> I have wondered about backing with the Toad, especially if you put the
Wife get into the Toad and have her steer? (Might be much easier and
safer just to unhook). Otherwise, I have backed up as far as a foot or
so..................
> Jack Smith
> 1973FC31
> SoCal
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradner" bluethunder@
wrote:
> >
> > In the first couple of months of my Motorhome experience, seven
years ago, I got myself badly angled into the lane at a Canadian border
crossing. I told them I couldn't back up attached, and they had to close
down that lane while we unhooked the toad.
> >
> > In other words, I bought into the CAN NOT back up on a Toad
education.
> >
> > Since then I've backed a toad many, many times. Sometimes short,
sometimes 50 feet or more. My Sterling tow bar is just fine, as are the
vehicles that were pushed. It helps to understand the process and try to
back on the same curve to keep the toad steer tires from turning against
the caster, but I've even backed with toad tires fully swung sideways,
slowly skidding them (on a loose surface). Sometimes you just have to do
what you have to do!
> >
> > Don Bradner
> > 90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
> > My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1
> >
> > On 5/19/2009 at 11:28 AM Al Scudder wrote:
> >
> > >Fred is right you CAN NOT back up on a Toad.
> >
>