Time to replace defective and potentially dangerous absorption fridge

[gondolaguy]

Made more progress on refer replacement today. Moved electrical outlet to below deck (in rear of slide out drawer). Capped off gas outlet, and removed plywood box around access door. Also, took out top cabinet so I can mount fridge on top of drawer space.

[davidbrady]

It looks really clean Corey. Thanks for the photo update. How much vent room on either side of the cavity will the RF197 leave you?

Back to the fire box for a moment - does it look like the reefer cavity in our LXi's is large enough to wrap the entire thing in Hardie Backerboard (for the dometic and nor cold crowd)?

[gondolaguy]

(07-04-2013 16:55)davidmbrady Wrote:  It looks really clean Corey. Thanks for the photo update. How much vent room on either side of the cavity will the RF197 leave you?

Back to the fire box for a moment - does it look like the reefer cavity in our LXi's is large enough to wrap the entire thing in Hardie Backerboard (for the dometic and nor cold crowd)?

Concerning the vent room on the sides, the new fridge wouldn't fit in the exact cavity left bu the Dometic. It is about .25" wider and 3.5" taller (as I recall). Because there are actually two boxes built for the Dometic (to create the aforementioned sealed box), removal of the inner box gave me and extra 3" to play with (this is the cavity you see in the previous pics). Therefore, I expect 3" -.25" = 2.75"/2=1.375" of air space on each side of fridge. There new fridges seem to do all their cooling and exhaust from the front/bottom of the unit, so I feel there is no issue there. The extra height will be gotten from the removal of the top little cabinet (it was useless anyway). Here is a close up of the front of the cabinet that shows the space gained on one side (with the inner box, the plywood was flush with the side of the opening). There will also be some air space in the rear. The biggest question mark left is how to secure it in its new nest????????????

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(07-04-2013 16:55)davidmbrady Wrote:  It looks really clean Corey. Thanks for the photo update. How much vent room on either side of the cavity will the RF197 leave you?

Back to the fire box for a moment - does it look like the reefer cavity in our LXi's is large enough to wrap the entire thing in Hardie Backerboard (for the dometic and nor cold crowd)?

Concerning the vent room on the sides, the new fridge wouldn't fit in the exact cavity left bu the Dometic. It is about .25" wider and 3.5" taller (as I recall). Because there are actually two boxes built for the Dometic (to create the aforementioned sealed box), removal of the inner box gave me and extra 3" to play with (this is the cavity you see in the previous pics). Therefore, I expect 3" -.25" = 2.75"/2=1.375" of air space on each side of fridge. There new fridges seem to do all their cooling and exhaust from the front/bottom of the unit, so I feel there is no issue there. The extra height will be gotten from the removal of the top little cabinet (it was useless anyway). Here is a close up of the front of the cabinet that shows the space gained on one side (with the inner box, the plywood was flush with the side of the opening). There will also be some air space in the rear. The biggest question mark left is how to secure it in its new nest????????????

So, the only way I see you doing a complete wrap of hardie board, is to remove the inner plywood and replace with the Hardie board.

[oldmansax]

I have had 2 of arguably the most fire prone refrigerators, the Norcold 1200s, I own an HVAC company, and have a Masters License in Maryland. That info & $1 will get you a cup of coffee in some low class dives.

Here are a few things to consider about refrigerators in our motor homes.

Ammonia based refrigeration systems are among the most efficient around, evidenced by the fact that most of the large commercial cold storage facilities use them. They are considered safe when properly installed and maintained. Some parts DO have a limited life cycle and have to be replaced -- nothing lasts forever.

The camper type refrigerators we all use are NOT built to the exacting standards that the Wanderlodge, MCI, Prevost and other commercial vehicles use; instead they are built to the "what can we built that will meet the minimum requirements and we can charge extortionate prices for" standard.

I have spoken with mechanics and service personnel in several RV shops in several states. An unscientific survey of these folks says around 80% of the refrigerator compartments did NOT meet manufacturers specifications and caused cooling/overheating problems. Naturally, larger refrigerators with bigger units would be more susceptible to overheating in a poorly designed enclosure than smaller ones.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS RUMOR AND INNUENDO AND CANNOT BE VALIDATED.
When asked why Norcold did not contest the claims that their products caused all the fires, some RV dealers and service people said the RV manufacturers threatened to ruin Norcold with a PR campaign and never use any Norcold products again.

When I replaced my Dometic refrigerator with the Norcold 1200 I now have, the enclosure did not meet Dometic's specs. I completely redesigned the enclosure and insulated the back wall.

I really like the Hardy board idea & will incorporate that into the installation when I replace cooling unit next year.

I am making no recommendations for refrigerator types. Each of us have different habits and requirements and should choose a unit that fits their lifestyles. Personally, my PT40 has not seen a campground since I got it. If it is not home, it is on batteries or generator. I like the propane options.

I would suggest to anyone who has a propane unit that they pull it and check the enclosure to see if it is up to specs. THERE IS LITTLE ROOM FOR ERROR. It has to be pretty close to right!

I hope this may assuage some of the fears some have had about about absorption refrigerators.

TOM

[Johnny M Slone]

Hello, I to am in the process of replacing the Norcold with the RF197. First of all I have nothing good to say about the Norcold fridge, my personal opinion is they are dangerous. I have owned my coach for 6 years and have had troubles on 4 different occasions. Mine caught fire and had I not been right on top of it no doubt it would have burned. I actually put the fire out. This is a long story and I will not go into it now. As for the replacement the Samsung only needed additional height. The width was perfect, the depth could have used an inch more but will work. My coach had a small drawer and a toe heater underneath, overhead had a small drawer. I kept the toe heater underneath and a small drawer over head. The fridge now has 1 1/2 inch free space on each side so it could be boxed in with the fireproof material. Overhead I left a small opening in the vent as I felt it could help the ventilation. I fabed a bracket to bolt to both sides at the bottom of the fridge that will screw to the cabinet. I will also put a bracket at the back near the ac outlet. I think this will hold it securely in place.

[gondolaguy]

Tom,

Good to hear from an expert on these technologies.

What I extracted from your post actually increased my fear of these poorly designed products (even if the technology is sound!) I gathered: a) our RV refers are not built or installed to good standards in almost all cases, b) you recommend owners pull and inspect the ammonia cooling units (most won't until there is an issue, I'll bet) and c) you will fireproof your enclosure when the next refit happens. Not very comforting!

As far as the rumor...
"When asked why Norcold did not contest the claims that their products caused all the fires, some RV dealers and service people said the RV manufacturers threatened to ruin Norcold with a PR campaign and never use any Norcold products again."
...this smacks of backroom mechanic's theory versus real-world manufacturing business practice (my area of expertise).

Norcold most certainly decided to have the recalls in order to avert further liability (potentially with pressure from their insurer) for what appear to be direct cause-effect relationship to these fires and their product malfunctioning. While I'm sure the RV manufacturers expressed their obvious safety and reputation concerns, it is almost unprecedented that they would launch a PR campaign against Norcold. All they would need to do is stop buying the Norcold product to wage their vote. Clearly Bluebird would be no threat!

From the type of use you use your WL, I can see where the propane is a big advantage. The sad truth is, most RV owners will do zero maintenance or inspection, thereby just increasing the danger. I'm saving my LRIM 1200 fro the inevitable class action suit!!

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(07-05-2013 10:02)Johnny M Slone Wrote:  Hello, I to am in the process of replacing the Norcold with the RF197. First of all I have nothing good to say about the Norcold fridge, my personal opinion is they are dangerous. I have owned my coach for 6 years and have had troubles on 4 different occasions. Mine caught fire and had I not been right on top of it no doubt it would have burned. I actually put the fire out. This is a long story and I will not go into it now. As for the replacement the Samsung only needed additional height. The width was perfect, the depth could have used an inch more but will work. My coach had a small drawer and a toe heater underneath, overhead had a small drawer. I kept the toe heater underneath and a small drawer over head. The fridge now has 1 1/2 inch free space on each side so it could be boxed in with the fireproof material. Overhead I left a small opening in the vent as I felt it could help the ventilation. I fabed a bracket to bolt to both sides at the bottom of the fridge that will screw to the cabinet. I will also put a bracket at the back near the ac outlet. I think this will hold it securely in place.

Johnny,
Yikes! I want to hear your story!

Was your Norcold an LRIM 1200? Interesting that my hole is a 1/4" small, according to the 197 specs at least. What is your coach? I'm really interested in how you secure the 197. Perhaps some install pics???? pretty please

[davidbrady]

I don't think there's any question that the technology is sound. I find Tom's post very enlightening regarding the build quality and standards of the Dometic and Norcold absorption refrigerators. Folks who've replaced their cooling units with Amish units have reported improvements in quality.

Tom,

Have you had a chance to look at and assess any of the replacement aftermarket cooling units? I like the propane option too. I like being able to shut the coach down but my fridge stays cold. I haven't pulled mine to check the cavity dimensions or the state of the cooling unit but I will, and I do plan to line it with Hardie Backerboard. (Before I do I'll take a propane torch to see how long it takes to burn a hole through it - I may adjust the thickness accordingly). Again, I couldn't be more pleased with my Dometic's performance. It has always been ice cold and it has never failed. Perhaps in my case (by 2002) BB got the cavity dimensions right. All I want is an industrial grade cooling unit and I'd be happier than a pig in a poke.

Tom, any idea on the quantity of ammonia and hydrogen in the units? We want the backerboard to withstand any flame until all the fuel is consumed.

Johnny,

Sounds like you got the RF197 fastened down right. Any chance of a sketch of the brackets and attachment that you made at the base. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you fastened the RF197 at the base at all four corners. Given the amount of movement in our coaches I don't think fastening at the top will work very well; that is, fastening at the top rear of the fridge the way you typically would in a home.

[gondolaguy]

(07-05-2013 10:51)davidmbrady Wrote:  Folks who've replaced their cooling units with Amish units have reported improvements in quality.

I'll bet......... it got cold again LOL

It sounded to me like Tom was saying the installations were a real culprit. That would not be addressed by a better cooling unit, would it? In fact, it may exacerbate the problem. Jus sayin

[davidbrady]

(07-05-2013 11:00)gondolaguy Wrote:  I'll bet......... it got cold again LOL

It sounded to me like Tom was saying the installations were a real culprit. That would not be addressed by a better cooling unit, would it? In fact, it may exacerbate the problem. Jus sayin

ROTFL

The vent space at the back of the cavity is a well known issue and has long been a re-occurring theme of discussion. Like Tom says, for the fridge to operate where it's thermally supposed to you need the right enclosure and you need to have control over the air flow. The flue at the back has to suck cold air in at the bottom, pass it over the coils/condenser and expel it at the top. To get the right velocity and quantity of air installers need to follow the manufacturers specs. Most didn't and the result is tarnish on the technology. The technology is good. As far as I know, in some cases the installation and build quality hasn't been. (Did I leave enough wiggle room ). I imagine the cooling unit may over heat or not cool properly if the venting in the back isn't done properly. For us gas lovers to sleep at night, these two things need to be addressed: cooling unit build quality and cavity conformance to manufacturer's specs.

[gondolaguy]

All I can say is, there's a reason SR-71 pilots wear space suits ;-)