5spd surprise

[davidkerryedwards]

I'm more confused than ever. There is no doubt I'm feeling 5
engine/tranmission speed transitions. It's possible I'm confusing the
lock-up for a shift. There is information in the owners manual on two
allison transmissions, a 644 and a 654CR. The 654CR does not have a
creeper 1st gear although reverse is way lower on the 54 than the 44.
The information shows the 644 locking up at the top of first gear. If
I were to make a guess as to which transition was a lock-up, I'd be
inclined to think it was the transition at the top of first gear.
However, when climbing the 10% grade out of Palo Duro canyon, I kept
the shift lever in 1 and I never felt a lock up or shift. Perhaps it
does not lock up at the top of first gear if the shift lever is on '1'.
I crawled under today to see if I could tell if it was a 644 or 654
since I have pictures of both, but couldn't get a clear enough view to
tell.
One thing that made me start analyzing what was happening was that
when climbing, it would drop from top gear into the next lower gear, I
could then move the shifter into 3 and it would hold that gear.
However if it shifted down twice from top gear, and then I moved the
shifter into '2' it would downshift again into a lower gear. I
thought two gears down would be '2' and putting the shifter in '2'
would simply hold that gear and stop it from shifting up.
Does anyone know the difference between a 643 and a 644., if that is
what I have? Top shift at full throttle is around 43 or 44mph.

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
<MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
>
> You talkin' 653 or 654cr for close ratio? CR takes off in 1st and
is a 5 speed. 653 is a 640 with a creeper 1st. 653 takes off in 2nd.
Not supposed to upshift a 653 under power from 1st to 2nd.
> MH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rwoodysurplus
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:25 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: 5spd surprise
>
>
> i have the 5 spd model in my f-800 with 8.3 c cummins and i have yet
> to use the low gear. Its a tractor with a 38' trailer to haul heavy
> stuff up to 58,000 but have yet to need the low gear and it has to
> be selected to use low..Its not used in the d postion.
>
>
> woody 81 fc looking for 8.3/world series 4000 for my bus~
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> >
> > Jeff, I talked to Lennie my Allison guy and he said the 654CR was
> used in concrete trucks, had larger diameter converter 3" longer
> input shaft and larger diameter stator support spline. He scratched
> his head a little and allowed it might be possible to retro the 643
> input, stator support and converter to use the 5sp. planetary. I
> can believe it was done as the engine has been turbo charged,
> previous owner living in the mountains might have gotten weary
> talking to the joggers on the grades.
> > MH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jeff Miller
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:02 AM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: 5spd surprise
> >
> >
> > Trust Mike on this one. The MT-643 is the FC transmission
> until '87,
> > the torque-converter does indeed feel like a shift, should be
> around
> > 40mph at full throttle. The 654 was used, on the 6V2TA Detroit
> in the
> > PT, not on the FC. The transmission that would fit your coach in
> a 5-
> > speed would be the MT-653, which is the MT-643 with a creeper
> first
> > added, dump-truck tranny. I'm not aware of that transmission
> ever
> > being installed in an FC nor do I know why you'd need a creeper
> gear.
> >
> > 10mpg is seller's math. You should get around 8, less if you
> push it
> > hard. I've owned all configurations of diesel FC, never had one
> that
> > averaged better than 8.5 nor worse than 7.5mpg. If you have the
> > original 5.29:1 gearing you're pretty far out of the BSFE curve
> > already at 60, running 50-55 gently might give you 9mpg. The NA
> has
> > to work pretty hard to push an '82 FC35 down the highway, worst
> > power/weight ratio FC made and geared for 55mph. On the other
> hand,
> > 8mpg isn't bad compared to the earlier gas models that weighed
> > 10,000lbs less.
> >
> > Pull the sending unit for the fuel tank, replace it while you're
> at
> > it, they go bad, then calibrate it for the tank. Sounds like
> yours
> > was replaced without calibration. The '82 FC35 side-bath should
> hold
> > 265gallons.
> >
> > - Jeff Miller
> > in Holland, MI
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > It's possible I'm feeling convertor lock up, but I doubt it.
> There
> > > are 4 clear upshifts after 1st and 4 clear downshifts from top
> gear.
> > > Does a lock up convertor unlock under load on a hill, giving
> the
> > > appearance of a downshift? The amount of rpm difference is
> more
> > than
> > > I would associate with a lock up. There is paperwork in the
> owner's
> > > manual indicating it it an MT 654CR transmission, which is a 5
> > spd. I
> > > haven't crawled underneath to confirm yet. Where is the model
> > number
> > > on the transmission?
> > >
> > > Kerry
> > > 82 FC 35
> > > Denver
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> > > <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You are feeling the converter lock, it's not a gear change.
> You
> > > have a 643, 4 speed with lock up, you will get about 7/8 mpg
> and
> > > that's the way it is. Don't believe the gages, they are
> indicators
> > > and not to be taken literally.
> > > > Let mine get down to indicated quarter tank once and it took
> 145
> > > gallons, 150 tank, rear bath floor plan.
> > > > MH
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: davidkerryedwards
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] 5spd surprise
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Took my Bird for it's first cruise from Denver to Amarillo
> to
> > visit
> > > > Palo Duro Canyon and Alibates Flint Quarries. After first
> > thinking I
> > > > was just losing my mind and not paying close enough
> attention to
> > > > shifting patterns as we climbed hills, I carefully counted
> the
> > shifts.
> > > > It has a 5 spd transmission and not a 4 spd. What a
> pleaant
> > > > surprise. The Allison 5 spd has a lockup torque convertor
> > which means
> > > > the previous owners insistence that it got a steady 10mpg
> is
> > > > believable. This means that not only does it have a new
> motor,
> > it has
> > > > a new transmission. Discovering this made up for the fact
> that
> > > > Amarillo had record low temperatures and snow during our
> visit.
> > > > Fuel gauge is reading way past full. Is this typical? It
> > seems to be
> > > > working, just that full is past full, and even past the
> little
> > button
> > > > below the 'F'. If it does this, does 'E' still mean empty
> or
> > is empty
> > > > now 1/2?
> > > >
> > > > Kerry
> > > > 82 FC 35
> > > > Denver
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS Recreational vehicles Wanderlodge
> Automotive
> > > maintenance
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> vehicles
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> >
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> maintenance
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> Automotive radiators
> >
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[rwoodysurplus]

-mine is mt


-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
<MHOHNSTEIN@...> wrote:
>
> You talkin' 653 or 654cr for close ratio? CR takes off in 1st and
is a 5 speed. 653 is a 640 with a creeper 1st. 653 takes off in
2nd. Not supposed to upshift a 653 under power from 1st to 2nd.
> MH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rwoodysurplus
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:25 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: 5spd surprise
>
>
> i have the 5 spd model in my f-800 with 8.3 c cummins and i have
yet
> to use the low gear. Its a tractor with a 38' trailer to haul
heavy
> stuff up to 58,000 but have yet to need the low gear and it has
to
> be selected to use low..Its not used in the d postion.
>
>
> woody 81 fc looking for 8.3/world series 4000 for my bus~
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> >
> > Jeff, I talked to Lennie my Allison guy and he said the 654CR
was
> used in concrete trucks, had larger diameter converter 3"
longer
> input shaft and larger diameter stator support spline. He
scratched
> his head a little and allowed it might be possible to retro the
643
> input, stator support and converter to use the 5sp. planetary.
I
> can believe it was done as the engine has been turbo charged,
> previous owner living in the mountains might have gotten weary
> talking to the joggers on the grades.
> > MH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jeff Miller
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:02 AM
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: 5spd surprise
> >
> >
> > Trust Mike on this one. The MT-643 is the FC transmission
> until '87,
> > the torque-converter does indeed feel like a shift, should
be
> around
> > 40mph at full throttle. The 654 was used, on the 6V2TA
Detroit
> in the
> > PT, not on the FC. The transmission that would fit your
coach in
> a 5-
> > speed would be the MT-653, which is the MT-643 with a
creeper
> first
> > added, dump-truck tranny. I'm not aware of that transmission
> ever
> > being installed in an FC nor do I know why you'd need a
creeper
> gear.
> >
> > 10mpg is seller's math. You should get around 8, less if you
> push it
> > hard. I've owned all configurations of diesel FC, never had
one
> that
> > averaged better than 8.5 nor worse than 7.5mpg. If you have
the
> > original 5.29:1 gearing you're pretty far out of the BSFE
curve
> > already at 60, running 50-55 gently might give you 9mpg. The
NA
> has
> > to work pretty hard to push an '82 FC35 down the highway,
worst
> > power/weight ratio FC made and geared for 55mph. On the
other
> hand,
> > 8mpg isn't bad compared to the earlier gas models that
weighed
> > 10,000lbs less.
> >
> > Pull the sending unit for the fuel tank, replace it while
you're
> at
> > it, they go bad, then calibrate it for the tank. Sounds like
> yours
> > was replaced without calibration. The '82 FC35 side-bath
should
> hold
> > 265gallons.
> >
> > - Jeff Miller
> > in Holland, MI
> >
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > It's possible I'm feeling convertor lock up, but I doubt
it.
> There
> > > are 4 clear upshifts after 1st and 4 clear downshifts from
top
> gear.
> > > Does a lock up convertor unlock under load on a hill,
giving
> the
> > > appearance of a downshift? The amount of rpm difference
is
> more
> > than
> > > I would associate with a lock up. There is paperwork in
the
> owner's
> > > manual indicating it it an MT 654CR transmission, which is
a 5
> > spd. I
> > > haven't crawled underneath to confirm yet. Where is the
model
> > number
> > > on the transmission?
> > >
> > > Kerry
> > > 82 FC 35
> > > Denver
> > >
> > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Hohnstein"
> > > <MHOHNSTEIN@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You are feeling the converter lock, it's not a gear
change.
> You
> > > have a 643, 4 speed with lock up, you will get about 7/8
mpg
> and
> > > that's the way it is. Don't believe the gages, they are
> indicators
> > > and not to be taken literally.
> > > > Let mine get down to indicated quarter tank once and it
took
> 145
> > > gallons, 150 tank, rear bath floor plan.
> > > > MH
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: davidkerryedwards
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:21 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] 5spd surprise
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Took my Bird for it's first cruise from Denver to
Amarillo
> to
> > visit
> > > > Palo Duro Canyon and Alibates Flint Quarries. After
first
> > thinking I
> > > > was just losing my mind and not paying close enough
> attention to
> > > > shifting patterns as we climbed hills, I carefully
counted
> the
> > shifts.
> > > > It has a 5 spd transmission and not a 4 spd. What a
> pleaant
> > > > surprise. The Allison 5 spd has a lockup torque
convertor
> > which means
> > > > the previous owners insistence that it got a steady
10mpg
> is
> > > > believable. This means that not only does it have a
new
> motor,
> > it has
> > > > a new transmission. Discovering this made up for the
fact
> that
> > > > Amarillo had record low temperatures and snow during
our
> visit.
> > > > Fuel gauge is reading way past full. Is this
typical? It
> > seems to be
> > > > working, just that full is past full, and even past
the
> little
> > button
> > > > below the 'F'. If it does this, does 'E' still mean
empty
> or
> > is empty
> > > > now 1/2?
> > > >
> > > > Kerry
> > > > 82 FC 35
> > > > Denver
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS Recreational vehicles Wanderlodge
> Automotive
> > > maintenance
> > > > Recreational vehicle dealer Used recreational
> vehicles
> > > Automotive radiators
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----
> > ----------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > a.. Visit your group "WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
> > > >
> > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
> > > > WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
> Terms
> > of
> > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----
> > ----------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS Recreational vehicles Wanderlodge
Automotive
> maintenance
> > Recreational vehicle dealer Used recreational
vehicles
> Automotive radiators
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----------
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "WanderlodgeForum" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WanderlodgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Jeff Miller]

No problem.

The MT-643, standard WLFC transmission, has four gears. The shift
goes like this: 1/2, lockup, 2/3, 3/4.

My speed reference might be a little off for the 5.29:1 gears, it has
been a while since I always sent my 5.29 gears to the junkyard, but I
believe it locks the torque converter when in second gear around
37mph at full throttle, will drop back out of lockup about the same
speed at full throttle. Select second at a stop, you will feel the
1/2 shift, then the lockup. This should tell you conclusively that
with two shifts in the second gear position you are feeling the
lockup.

As said before, the true 5-speed (the 654cr) is in the PT models with
the 6-cylinder DD engine, the MT-643 in your bird is maxed-out at
250hp.

A five-speed is not necessary IMO on the 3208, it has a good useable
RPM range to 3000rpm (Na and ATAAC, 2800rpm for Ta), it just needs
more power and taller gears for highway work above 55 or 60mph. The
DD 2-stroke engines really needed the 5-speed more as they're only a
2100rpm engine with a fairly narrow power band.

- Jeff Miller
in Holland, MI



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
wrote:
>
> I'm more confused than ever. There is no doubt I'm feeling 5
> engine/tranmission speed transitions. It's possible I'm confusing
the
> lock-up for a shift. There is information in the owners manual on
two
> allison transmissions, a 644 and a 654CR. The 654CR does not have a
> creeper 1st gear although reverse is way lower on the 54 than the
44.
> The information shows the 644 locking up at the top of first gear.
If
> I were to make a guess as to which transition was a lock-up, I'd be
> inclined to think it was the transition at the top of first gear.
> However, when climbing the 10% grade out of Palo Duro canyon, I kept
> the shift lever in 1 and I never felt a lock up or shift. Perhaps
it
> does not lock up at the top of first gear if the shift lever is
on '1'.
> I crawled under today to see if I could tell if it was a 644 or 654
> since I have pictures of both, but couldn't get a clear enough view
to
> tell.
> One thing that made me start analyzing what was happening was that
> when climbing, it would drop from top gear into the next lower
gear, I
> could then move the shifter into 3 and it would hold that gear.
> However if it shifted down twice from top gear, and then I moved the
> shifter into '2' it would downshift again into a lower gear. I
> thought two gears down would be '2' and putting the shifter in '2'
> would simply hold that gear and stop it from shifting up.
> Does anyone know the difference between a 643 and a 644., if that is
> what I have? Top shift at full throttle is around 43 or 44mph.
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver

[davidkerryedwards]

Thanks. I will try that and report back. It may be a few days before
I have it out on the road again. Does it also shift down the same
way? 2--lockup, then 2 unlocked? That would explain the double shift
down I was feeling in second.
There's still the info on the 644 and 654CR in the owner's handbook.
It looks like it was added at the same time as the info on the new CAT
engine was added.
The rear end may also have been changed. It was running about 2620
rpm's at 64mph which seems a little low if the rear end is still the
5.29. There's Rockwell gear brochures in the owners handbook also.

Kerry
82 FC 35
Denver

-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
wrote:
>
> No problem.
>
> The MT-643, standard WLFC transmission, has four gears. The shift
> goes like this: 1/2, lockup, 2/3, 3/4.
>
> My speed reference might be a little off for the 5.29:1 gears, it has
> been a while since I always sent my 5.29 gears to the junkyard, but I
> believe it locks the torque converter when in second gear around
> 37mph at full throttle, will drop back out of lockup about the same
> speed at full throttle. Select second at a stop, you will feel the
> 1/2 shift, then the lockup. This should tell you conclusively that
> with two shifts in the second gear position you are feeling the
> lockup.
>
> As said before, the true 5-speed (the 654cr) is in the PT models with
> the 6-cylinder DD engine, the MT-643 in your bird is maxed-out at
> 250hp.
>
> A five-speed is not necessary IMO on the 3208, it has a good useable
> RPM range to 3000rpm (Na and ATAAC, 2800rpm for Ta), it just needs
> more power and taller gears for highway work above 55 or 60mph. The
> DD 2-stroke engines really needed the 5-speed more as they're only a
> 2100rpm engine with a fairly narrow power band.
>
> - Jeff Miller
> in Holland, MI

[Jeff Miller]

That's a little low for the 5.29, but about right. It is too high RPM
for any other gearing, likely the speedo or tach are not 100%
accurate.

Yes it downshifts in the same sequence, down into 2nd, then out of
overdrive, then down to 1st.

Climbing grades will never in my experience overheat the transmission
no matter how hard you try, as long as the torque converter is in
lockup. Once you drop out of lockup, the transmission starts to
generate lots of heat, and that heat also goes into the radiator and
drives the engine temp up. Keep that in mind when climbing as the '82
didn't normally come with a transmission temperature gauge, something
worth adding.

- Jeff Miller
in Holland, MI


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
wrote:
>
> Thanks. I will try that and report back. It may be a few days
before
> I have it out on the road again. Does it also shift down the same
> way? 2--lockup, then 2 unlocked? That would explain the double
shift
> down I was feeling in second.
> There's still the info on the 644 and 654CR in the owner's
handbook.
> It looks like it was added at the same time as the info on the new
CAT
> engine was added.
> The rear end may also have been changed. It was running about 2620
> rpm's at 64mph which seems a little low if the rear end is still the
> 5.29. There's Rockwell gear brochures in the owners handbook also.
>
> Kerry
> 82 FC 35
> Denver
>
> -- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
> wrote:
> >
> > No problem.
> >
> > The MT-643, standard WLFC transmission, has four gears. The shift
> > goes like this: 1/2, lockup, 2/3, 3/4.
> >
> > My speed reference might be a little off for the 5.29:1 gears, it
has
> > been a while since I always sent my 5.29 gears to the junkyard,
but I
> > believe it locks the torque converter when in second gear around
> > 37mph at full throttle, will drop back out of lockup about the
same
> > speed at full throttle. Select second at a stop, you will feel
the
> > 1/2 shift, then the lockup. This should tell you conclusively
that
> > with two shifts in the second gear position you are feeling the
> > lockup.
> >
> > As said before, the true 5-speed (the 654cr) is in the PT models
with
> > the 6-cylinder DD engine, the MT-643 in your bird is maxed-out at
> > 250hp.
> >
> > A five-speed is not necessary IMO on the 3208, it has a good
useable
> > RPM range to 3000rpm (Na and ATAAC, 2800rpm for Ta), it just
needs
> > more power and taller gears for highway work above 55 or 60mph.
The
> > DD 2-stroke engines really needed the 5-speed more as they're
only a
> > 2100rpm engine with a fairly narrow power band.
> >
> > - Jeff Miller
> > in Holland, MI
>

[davidkerryedwards]

Precisely what I noticed. Temperature starting going up when it did
the double downshift in second. Is there any way to hold it in lockup
in second gear on a grade? What inspires it to come out of lockup?
Rpm's? Does it stay locked up in second if it automatically downshifts
to second while in drive, and then shifts out of lockup if you
manually shift it down to second?
I was surprised that there was no transmission temperature gauge and
was thinking of adding one. Where do most people install the sender?

Kerry

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Miller"
wrote:
>
> That's a little low for the 5.29, but about right. It is too high RPM
> for any other gearing, likely the speedo or tach are not 100%
> accurate.
>
> Yes it downshifts in the same sequence, down into 2nd, then out of
> overdrive, then down to 1st.
>
> Climbing grades will never in my experience overheat the transmission
> no matter how hard you try, as long as the torque converter is in
> lockup. Once you drop out of lockup, the transmission starts to
> generate lots of heat, and that heat also goes into the radiator and
> drives the engine temp up. Keep that in mind when climbing as the '82
> didn't normally come with a transmission temperature gauge, something
> worth adding.
>
> - Jeff Miller
> in Holland, MI
>
>
>

[Gregory OConnor]

Kerry, Randy sells all his birds with a full tank too.

Greg

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "davidkerryedwards"
wrote:
>
> Yes, I was going to do that eventually. What happened was the
> previous owner told me the tank was full,