Cost of ownership

[gcyeaw]

I have asked other questions on this forum and I do appreciate the
responses I have received. I have been building a spreadsheet to try
to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. I love the
look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at my leisure
prior to retirement.
The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a 1984 or
older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect to have
lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would expect
higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit ion/chassis
systems over say, a 10 year time span..

Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine
maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance averaged over a
ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine rebuild)

I am really trying to determine the value as the clock ticks on
20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but so was I 40
years ago!

Gardner

[John Suter]

Hi Gardner,

> Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for
> routine
> maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance
> averaged over a
> ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine
> rebuild)

Perhaps we can first mention the routine maintenance
costs of virtually any model coach or age, total OVER
A FIVE YEAR SPAN, then divide by 5 for annual cost.
Virtually all of the following will be
touched/replaced in that 5 yr span.

Annual engine, transmission, generator: air, fuel,
filters and fluids (oils and coolants) change, belts,
approx $4,000, if done by a reputable shop.

New tires every 4-5 years - How many tires does
coach have, what load range and model do you want? -
2,000 to 4,000.

Batteries approx every 5 years - how many and what
type?? - 1,000 to 2,000

Our motorhome ownership experience began in 1966,
and we've had Bluebirds since 1986. Anyway we have
tried to hold the costs, these 3 very basic
necessities have always been 1,400 to 2,000 per year,
but they hit in about 5 year chunks of $7-$10,000.

As for your hope/prayer of "unplanned maintenance"
of $10,000 for each 10 years? We've never been close
to that lucky or even several times that lucky. Go in
with your eyes wide open (and your wallet). Every
coach is an expensive toy to own, operate, and
maintain; but the enjoyment is well worth it. Just
count on something always needing to be fixed,
replaced, and/or upgraded.

John Suter
2000 LXi (prior 86PT40 91PT40 and many other brands)


--- gcyeaw wrote:

> I have asked other questions on this forum and I
> do appreciate the
> responses I have received. I have been building a
> spreadsheet to try
> to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage
> Bluebird. I love the
> look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems
> at my leisure
> prior to retirement.
> The price range I am looking at is under $30,000
> for a 1984 or
> older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would
> expect to have
> lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I
> would expect
> higher incidence of failure in in basic
> engine/transmit ion/chassis
> systems over say, a 10 year time span..
>
>
> I am really trying to determine the value as the
> clock ticks on
> 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built,
> but so was I 40
> years ago!
>
> Gardner
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[gcyeaw]

Thanks John,
I need answers like yours to keep a realistic outlook. I also
agree that any motorcoach will be in the same ballpark as far as on
going cost. One thing that I keep returning to is the cost of fuel. I
inquired into an FC 35 for sale and was told it got 5.5 mpg with a
3208 NA engine. That is lower than I had expected. It may be a sign
of engine problems, I am not sure.

Gardner


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, John Suter
wrote:
>
> Hi Gardner,
>
> > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for
> > routine
> > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance
> > averaged over a
> > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine
> > rebuild)
>
> Perhaps we can first mention the routine maintenance
> costs of virtually any model coach or age, total OVER
> A FIVE YEAR SPAN, then divide by 5 for annual cost.
> Virtually all of the following will be
> touched/replaced in that 5 yr span.
>
> Annual engine, transmission, generator: air, fuel,
> filters and fluids (oils and coolants) change, belts,
> approx $4,000, if done by a reputable shop.
>
> New tires every 4-5 years - How many tires does
> coach have, what load range and model do you want? -
> 2,000 to 4,000.
>
> Batteries approx every 5 years - how many and what
> type?? - 1,000 to 2,000
>
> Our motorhome ownership experience began in 1966,
> and we've had Bluebirds since 1986. Anyway we have
> tried to hold the costs, these 3 very basic
> necessities have always been 1,400 to 2,000 per year,
> but they hit in about 5 year chunks of $7-$10,000.
>
> As for your hope/prayer of "unplanned maintenance"
> of $10,000 for each 10 years? We've never been close
> to that lucky or even several times that lucky. Go in
> with your eyes wide open (and your wallet). Every
> coach is an expensive toy to own, operate, and
> maintain; but the enjoyment is well worth it. Just
> count on something always needing to be fixed,
> replaced, and/or upgraded.
>
> John Suter
> 2000 LXi (prior 86PT40 91PT40 and many other brands)
>
>
> --- gcyeaw wrote:
>
> > I have asked other questions on this forum and I
> > do appreciate the
> > responses I have received. I have been building a
> > spreadsheet to try
> > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage
> > Bluebird. I love the
> > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems
> > at my leisure
> > prior to retirement.
> > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000
> > for a 1984 or
> > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would
> > expect to have
> > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I
> > would expect
> > higher incidence of failure in in basic
> > engine/transmit ion/chassis
> > systems over say, a 10 year time span..
> >
> >
> > I am really trying to determine the value as the
> > clock ticks on
> > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built,
> > but so was I 40
> > years ago!
> >
> > Gardner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

[pattypape]

Plan on at least 5,000 each year for the first three years.
If you do most of the work yourself.
This does not include major breakdowns or drive train problems.
After the urgent repairs and a full routine maintenance, then piece
of mind repairs, then upgrades.
It will take as much $ as you want to spend.
But when your Bird is at a level you are comfortable with, you will
have a great motorhome.
I think the 3208 should get 7/8 mpg.

Bill 88 FC


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
>
> Thanks John,
> I need answers like yours to keep a realistic outlook. I also
> agree that any motorcoach will be in the same ballpark as far as
on
> going cost. One thing that I keep returning to is the cost of
fuel. I
> inquired into an FC 35 for sale and was told it got 5.5 mpg with a
> 3208 NA engine. That is lower than I had expected. It may be a
sign
> of engine problems, I am not sure.
>
> Gardner
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, John Suter
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gardner,
> >
> > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for
> > > routine
> > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance
> > > averaged over a
> > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine
> > > rebuild)
> >
> > Perhaps we can first mention the routine maintenance
> > costs of virtually any model coach or age, total OVER
> > A FIVE YEAR SPAN, then divide by 5 for annual cost.
> > Virtually all of the following will be
> > touched/replaced in that 5 yr span.
> >
> > Annual engine, transmission, generator: air, fuel,
> > filters and fluids (oils and coolants) change, belts,
> > approx $4,000, if done by a reputable shop.
> >
> > New tires every 4-5 years - How many tires does
> > coach have, what load range and model do you want? -
> > 2,000 to 4,000.
> >
> > Batteries approx every 5 years - how many and what
> > type?? - 1,000 to 2,000
> >
> > Our motorhome ownership experience began in 1966,
> > and we've had Bluebirds since 1986. Anyway we have
> > tried to hold the costs, these 3 very basic
> > necessities have always been 1,400 to 2,000 per year,
> > but they hit in about 5 year chunks of $7-$10,000.
> >
> > As for your hope/prayer of "unplanned maintenance"
> > of $10,000 for each 10 years? We've never been close
> > to that lucky or even several times that lucky. Go in
> > with your eyes wide open (and your wallet). Every
> > coach is an expensive toy to own, operate, and
> > maintain; but the enjoyment is well worth it. Just
> > count on something always needing to be fixed,
> > replaced, and/or upgraded.
> >
> > John Suter
> > 2000 LXi (prior 86PT40 91PT40 and many other brands)
> >
> >
> > --- gcyeaw wrote:
> >
> > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I
> > > do appreciate the
> > > responses I have received. I have been building a
> > > spreadsheet to try
> > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage
> > > Bluebird. I love the
> > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems
> > > at my leisure
> > > prior to retirement.
> > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000
> > > for a 1984 or
> > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would
> > > expect to have
> > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I
> > > would expect
> > > higher incidence of failure in in basic
> > > engine/transmit ion/chassis
> > > systems over say, a 10 year time span..
> > >
> > >
> > > I am really trying to determine the value as the
> > > clock ticks on
> > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built,
> > > but so was I 40
> > > years ago!
> > >
> > > Gardner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>

[rwoodysurplus]

must have a brake dragging or something wrong

never got under 7 running the gen set and foot on floor

woody fc rb 81-










-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
>
> Thanks John,
> I need answers like yours to keep a realistic outlook. I also
> agree that any motorcoach will be in the same ballpark as far as on
> going cost. One thing that I keep returning to is the cost of fuel.
I
> inquired into an FC 35 for sale and was told it got 5.5 mpg with a
> 3208 NA engine. That is lower than I had expected. It may be a sign
> of engine problems, I am not sure.
>
> Gardner
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, John Suter
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gardner,
> >
> > > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for
> > > routine
> > > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance
> > > averaged over a
> > > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine
> > > rebuild)
> >
> > Perhaps we can first mention the routine maintenance
> > costs of virtually any model coach or age, total OVER
> > A FIVE YEAR SPAN, then divide by 5 for annual cost.
> > Virtually all of the following will be
> > touched/replaced in that 5 yr span.
> >
> > Annual engine, transmission, generator: air, fuel,
> > filters and fluids (oils and coolants) change, belts,
> > approx $4,000, if done by a reputable shop.
> >
> > New tires every 4-5 years - How many tires does
> > coach have, what load range and model do you want? -
> > 2,000 to 4,000.
> >
> > Batteries approx every 5 years - how many and what
> > type?? - 1,000 to 2,000
> >
> > Our motorhome ownership experience began in 1966,
> > and we've had Bluebirds since 1986. Anyway we have
> > tried to hold the costs, these 3 very basic
> > necessities have always been 1,400 to 2,000 per year,
> > but they hit in about 5 year chunks of $7-$10,000.
> >
> > As for your hope/prayer of "unplanned maintenance"
> > of $10,000 for each 10 years? We've never been close
> > to that lucky or even several times that lucky. Go in
> > with your eyes wide open (and your wallet). Every
> > coach is an expensive toy to own, operate, and
> > maintain; but the enjoyment is well worth it. Just
> > count on something always needing to be fixed,
> > replaced, and/or upgraded.
> >
> > John Suter
> > 2000 LXi (prior 86PT40 91PT40 and many other brands)
> >
> >
> > --- gcyeaw wrote:
> >
> > > I have asked other questions on this forum and I
> > > do appreciate the
> > > responses I have received. I have been building a
> > > spreadsheet to try
> > > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage
> > > Bluebird. I love the
> > > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems
> > > at my leisure
> > > prior to retirement.
> > > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000
> > > for a 1984 or
> > > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would
> > > expect to have
> > > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I
> > > would expect
> > > higher incidence of failure in in basic
> > > engine/transmit ion/chassis
> > > systems over say, a 10 year time span..
> > >
> > >
> > > I am really trying to determine the value as the
> > > clock ticks on
> > > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built,
> > > but so was I 40
> > > years ago!
> > >
> > > Gardner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>

[smquandt]

Gardner

I have my 93-PT40 in for oil, filters, tune up etc, etc on
generator, engine and transmission. I'll let you know what the bill
is when I get it back next week. Work being done by Inland Diesel
an Allison and Detroit shop. This Bird is new to me about 90 days
ago, also first coach for me. Bird has about 78,000 miles on it,
generator in the 950 Hrs range.


Steve Quandt
Iron Mountain, MI
1993 PT-40


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
>
> I have asked other questions on this forum and I do appreciate
the
> responses I have received. I have been building a spreadsheet to
try
> to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. I love the
> look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at my leisure
> prior to retirement.
> The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a 1984 or
> older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect to have
> lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would expect
> higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit
ion/chassis
> systems over say, a 10 year time span..
>
> Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine
> maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance averaged over
a
> ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine rebuild)
>
> I am really trying to determine the value as the clock ticks on
> 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but so was I 40
> years ago!
>
> Gardner
>

[Curt Sprenger]

Gardner,

If I haven't done so already, send me your email address and I will
forward to you my cost and work-items spread sheets. I've done all the
things that needed to be done, fixed many things that really did not
need to be done, and upgrades that we wanted. My goal is to get our bird
back to close to new, which costs dollars, time, etc.

Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif.

[jwasnewski]

Pass me your e-mail and I will send you my general maintenance
expenses and elective expenses for two years.

Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40
Niceville, FL.
jwasnewski@...






-- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
>
> I have asked other questions on this forum and I do appreciate
the
> responses I have received. I have been building a spreadsheet to
try
> to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. I love the
> look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at my leisure
> prior to retirement.
> The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a 1984 or
> older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect to have
> lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would expect
> higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit ion/chassis
> systems over say, a 10 year time span..
>
> Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine
> maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance averaged over
a
> ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine rebuild)
>
> I am really trying to determine the value as the clock ticks on
> 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but so was I 40
> years ago!
>
> Gardner
>

[orbitalsolutions]

Hello, Gardner.

The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 year old, or
older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you buy.

Remember we are talking about older buses here and no two are the
same. You will find "project buses" on the market that may need
everything replaced on them from the motor and electronics to the
fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a very nice
highly updated example will be offered for sale that will need next
to nothing.

Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on a "project
bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and everything else
in the bus having been already updated and in good working order.

I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The project bus at a
rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will not be your best
value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care by folks who
were enthusiastic owners.

Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years old with
15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced so were all
pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All belts and
hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a year old.
Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex pure sine-
wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition Direct TV
system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less than a year
old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 years old.
Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a year ago.
Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair in. New carpet
about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get my point.

If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around 25 to 27
thousand.

Now think about that "project bus" that has been sitting behind a
barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, polished it up and
hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very different pictures
arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very different cost of
ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be able to buy
the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready to spend that
much again, and more, to make it into a good looking reliable runner.

So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in your price
range.

Good Luck.


James
78FC33SB "Old School"
Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and raining)








--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
>
> I have asked other questions on this forum and I do appreciate
the
> responses I have received. I have been building a spreadsheet to
try
> to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. I love the
> look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at my leisure
> prior to retirement.
> The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a 1984 or
> older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect to have
> lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would expect
> higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit
ion/chassis
> systems over say, a 10 year time span..
>
> Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine
> maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance averaged over
a
> ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine rebuild)
>
> I am really trying to determine the value as the clock ticks on
> 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but so was I 40
> years ago!
>
> Gardner
>

[orbitalsolutions]

Gardner, here are some actual maintence costs for the model of 'Bird
that you are looking for.

If you take the 'Bird to an authorized Cat Center for oil and filter
changes it will cost $280.00 -- This will include all of your oil
and fuel filters, a complete chassie lube and Cat brand motor oil.
Of course they do all the work, you watch them and start the bus
when needed.

Here are the parts cost:

16 Qts. 15/40 Cat -- $34.40

2 - 1R-0713 -------- $11.20

1 - 1P-0808 -------- $2.46

1 - 1R-0750 -------- $11.88

1 - 8N9803 --------- $20.10

Total parts cost is $80.04 -- so, you can save two hundered bucks
here if you do it yourself. This is a once a year task for most
folks.

Tires, every five years between $2200 and $3000 depending on Tire
Brand.

Cat PM level 2 Maintainence -- every 2000 hours or 10.000 gallons of
fuel -- Costs $790 at a certified Cat Center and includes
everything. This service also includes the above listed oil, filter
and lube service.

1) All new hoses and belts

2) Performance Analysis report

3) Steam clean engine

4) Valve lash adjustment

5) cooling system service (flush and clean)

That is pretty much your ongoing maintenience stuff. You can also
figure on a transmission service every thirty thousand miles with a
new filter and fluid for about $175.00 including labor.

That's the stuff you can count on doing and what it actually costs.

Hope this helps.


James
78FC33SB "Old School"
Orange Lake, FL









--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "orbitalsolutions"
wrote:
>
> Hello, Gardner.
>
> The biggest factor in the cost of ownership of a 25 year old, or
> older 'Bird, lies in the condition of the bus that you buy.
>
> Remember we are talking about older buses here and no two are the
> same. You will find "project buses" on the market that may need
> everything replaced on them from the motor and electronics to the
> fridge and carpet ect. However, from time to time, a very nice
> highly updated example will be offered for sale that will need
next
> to nothing.
>
> Obviously the cost of ownership will be much higher on a "project
> bus" than on a Cheery example with newer motor and everything else
> in the bus having been already updated and in good working order.
>
> I guess my point is to buy your bus wisely! The project bus at a
> rock bottom price that needs everying replaced will not be your
best
> value. Rather, find a bus that has had on-going care by folks who
> were enthusiastic owners.
>
> Take my bus for example ... the motor is about 4 years old with
> 15,000 miles on it. At the time the motor was replaced so were
all
> pumps, fan assembly even the main started motor. All belts and
> hoses are two years old. Trojan batteries less than a year old.
> Twin 55 amp Iota charges less than a year old. Xantrex pure sine-
> wave inverter less than a year old. High deffenition Direct TV
> system less than a yera old. 27" Samsung LCD TV less than a year
> old. Refridgerator about 4 years old. AC units about 3 years
old.
> Roof deck rebedded, refastened and painted less than a year ago.
> Polished Aluminum wheels that you can comb your hair in. New
carpet
> about 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but you get my point.
>
> If I were to sell my bus tomorrow I could get around 25 to 27
> thousand.
>
> Now think about that "project bus" that has been sitting behind a
> barn for 8 years before someone pulled it out, polished it up and
> hung a for sale sign on it. These are two very different pictures
> arn't they? Certainly you would experience a very different cost
of
> ownewship betweeen the above examples. Now you may be able to buy
> the project bus for 16 thousand bucks, but get ready to spend that
> much again, and more, to make it into a good looking reliable
runner.
>
> So shop wisely, and buy the best bus you can find in your price
> range.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
> James
> 78FC33SB "Old School"
> Orange Lake, FL (Mid-Eightys, total over cast and raining)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "gcyeaw" wrote:
> >
> > I have asked other questions on this forum and I do appreciate
> the
> > responses I have received. I have been building a spreadsheet to
> try
> > to estimate the real cost of owning a vintage Bluebird. I love
the
> > look and would enjoy repairing/restoring the systems at my
leisure
> > prior to retirement.
> > The price range I am looking at is under $30,000 for a 1984
or
> > older FC 33 TO 35. Given that price range I would expect to have
> > lots of small things to fix. Also given the age, I would expect
> > higher incidence of failure in in basic engine/transmit
> ion/chassis
> > systems over say, a 10 year time span..
> >
> > Would it be reasonable to estimate $700/year for routine
> > maintenance and $1000/year for unplanned maintenance averaged
over
> a
> > ten year time span? (assuming I don't need an engine rebuild)
> >
> > I am really trying to determine the value as the clock ticks
on
> > 20 to 25 year old coaches. They may be well built, but so was I
40
> > years ago!
> >
> > Gardner
> >
>