Up graded fresh water pump

[Ralph L. Fullenwider]

Good morning to everyone:

Now that I have the water problems solved in the '84FC, I was asked to post
my thoughts on the validity of the up grade.

The following is from my feeling and what I now have over what was
installed and not from any technical standpoint.

Old pump; 40 PSI @ 4gpm Par pump

Good pressure
Noisy
must have accumulator tank
no shower while doing dish

New pump; Surflow 65Psi @ 5.7 GPM Variable speed

Stinging shower normal shower with kitchen faucet running
Is it running? very quiet
removed accumulator tank
Will drain fresh water tank faster

I like the up grade even though it did point out that I had a water
pressure problem that I did not know I had until it was installed.

What I forsee with Coaches with dual water pumps. A single pump giving more
pressure than both dual pumps on the A/B switch since the dual pumps are
generally 40 PSI @ 3 GPM

All that being said, even with the increase of price, it is a good viable
up grade and I recommend it.

Higher pressures? Well these Coaches must pass a 115 static PSI test for
the RVIA standard, so 65 PSI is well within that range. Even if 2 65 PSI
pumps were installed on the dual system, the variable speed pumps would or
should equalize and at most would give you a constant 65 PSI with all
faucets running


Safe travels,

Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
'84 FC35 Duncan, Oklahoma
Ralph's RV Solutions

[Pete Masterson]

My experience was much the same. My coach had dual water pumps, but I
almost always ran them one at a time. When I had both pumps run, it
didn't seem like it changed anything.

The main motive for my performing the upgrade was that both pumps in
the original installation were seeping at the joint where the motor
attaches to the pump body. It appeared that a rebuild would be
required for both pumps. Doing the rebuild would probably have been
less expensive, but the complexity of the current system was not
attractive.

I removed both pumps and the accumulator tank.

I installed the Shurflow variable speed pump in the same location and
re-plumbed the connections. My coach uses polybutyl pipe, so I got
connectors from PEX Connection that mated to the polybutyl and used
PEX 3/4 inch tubing to connect the pump. (3/4 inch was selected due
to a comment in the pump instructions that "feeding into a 3/4 inch
pipe was preferred.") I note that the inlet and outlet fittings that
come with the pump are 1/2 inch. I used plastic plumbing fittings for
the reduction.

I wired the new pump to the "A" side of the selector switch and
capped off the "B" side wire.

Non-technical observations --

Original:
so-so water pressure (takes forever for hot water to reach the
kitchen sink -- and I'd _never_ gotten hot water to the bathroom sink).
quiet -- but I can hear the pump run from time to time when the
pressure in the accumulator tank drops.
Accumulator tank has absolutely no lag once the system is pressurized.

New set up:
good water pressure -- hot water arrives fairly quickly, even in the
bathroom sink.
Shower head doesn't provide "stinging" spray (by design) but pressure
no longer feels like a dribble
drains water tank faster
not quite as quiet, but not objectionable. Only operates when water
is demanded.
Microphor toilet doesn't always refill with water -- must hold handle
down a bit longer when flushing to ensure that the water pump starts
up -- or flush twice. (A minor inconvenience.) This is the only
situation where the fraction-of-a-second lag before the pump starts
is noticeable.

Note: On my coach the original water pumps are installed in a
basement compartment attached to a wooden block screwed to a metal
bulkhead. The much stronger vibration from the new pump does create a
more noticeable pump noise. The PEX pipe was installed in a way to
reduce/eliminate transferring the vibration through the plumbing system.

If I had it to do over again:
I wouldn't have used the PEX, but rather I'd have used a metal braid
covered "water heater" connection pipe I ran across in the hardware
store. These water heater connectors are flexible, 3/4 inch diameter
"hoses" but the fittings on the end use standard pipe threads.
(DIfferent PB-FPT fittings would have been required and I'd already
purchased the PB-PEX fittings.)

The PEX, in 3/4 inch size, proved quite difficult to position into
the small radius bends required for the available space. 1/2 inch PEX
would have been much easier to work with, but would have been a more
restrictive flow to/from the pump.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Feb 26, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Ralph L. Fullenwider wrote:

> Good morning to everyone:
>
> Now that I have the water problems solved in the '84FC, I was asked
> to post
> my thoughts on the validity of the up grade.
>
> The following is from my feeling and what I now have over what was
> installed and not from any technical standpoint.
>
> Old pump; 40 PSI @ 4gpm Par pump
>
> Good pressure
> Noisy
> must have accumulator tank
> no shower while doing dish
>
> New pump; Surflow 65Psi @ 5.7 GPM Variable speed
>
> Stinging shower normal shower with kitchen faucet running
> Is it running? very quiet
> removed accumulator tank
> Will drain fresh water tank faster
>
> I like the up grade even though it did point out that I had a water
> pressure problem that I did not know I had until it was installed.
>
> What I forsee with Coaches with dual water pumps. A single pump
> giving more
> pressure than both dual pumps on the A/B switch since the dual
> pumps are
> generally 40 PSI @ 3 GPM
>
> All that being said, even with the increase of price, it is a good
> viable
> up grade and I recommend it.
>
> Higher pressures? Well these Coaches must pass a 115 static PSI
> test for
> the RVIA standard, so 65 PSI is well within that range. Even if 2
> 65 PSI
> pumps were installed on the dual system, the variable speed pumps
> would or
> should equalize and at most would give you a constant 65 PSI with all
> faucets running
>
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> '84 FC35 Duncan, Oklahoma
> Ralph's RV Solutions



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[krminyl@...]

Ralph,

So the "burping" issues was the sporlan valve in the pump compartment? If
so, did you just take the old one apart and clean out the crystally stuff, or
did you rebuild/replace the sporlan?? My pump does that high pitch whine for
a half second about once every 10-15 minutes or so.

By the way, the new ShurFlow was "one" one the reasons I got to keep the BB
when I got it 6 yrs ago....my wife and daughters needed to get the shampoo out
of their hair, and the new pump did the trick.

Kevin McKeown
Yorba Linda, CA
1986 38' PT



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Terry Neal]

Thanks much Ralph. Looks like one of these new pumps is in my immediate
future too.

Terry Neal
Bozeman, MT
82PT40 6V92TA
74FC34 6V53T



Ralph L. Fullenwider wrote:

> Good morning to everyone:
>
> Now that I have the water problems solved in the '84FC, I was asked to
> post
> my thoughts on the validity of the up grade.
>
> The following is from my feeling and what I now have over what was
> installed and not from any technical standpoint.
>
> Old pump; 40 PSI @ 4gpm Par pump
>
> Good pressure
> Noisy
> must have accumulator tank
> no shower while doing dish
>
> New pump; Surflow 65Psi @ 5.7 GPM Variable speed
>
> Stinging shower normal shower with kitchen faucet running
> Is it running? very quiet
> removed accumulator tank
> Will drain fresh water tank faster
>
> I like the up grade even though it did point out that I had a water
> pressure problem that I did not know I had until it was installed.
>
> What I forsee with Coaches with dual water pumps. A single pump giving
> more
> pressure than both dual pumps on the A/B switch since the dual pumps are
> generally 40 PSI @ 3 GPM
>
> All that being said, even with the increase of price, it is a good viable
> up grade and I recommend it.
>
> Higher pressures? Well these Coaches must pass a 115 static PSI test for
> the RVIA standard, so 65 PSI is well within that range. Even if 2 65 PSI
> pumps were installed on the dual system, the variable speed pumps
> would or
> should equalize and at most would give you a constant 65 PSI with all
> faucets running
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> '84 FC35 Duncan, Oklahoma
> Ralph's RV Solutions
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Terry Neal]

Thanks Pete for an excellent report of your pump replacement. I am glad
to hear the PEX comments too. I may wind up replacing all of my copper
pipes with PEX but now I know what to expect if just using the PEX to
make the hook up to the system. I have only one pump in my system & I
do want to take out the accumulator tank in any event. I do get real
hot water quickly at the bath sink & the shower now. Maybe 5-8 seconds
delay at the most. I have noticed higher water pressure on the Hot side
vs the Cold side though. Suspect I have some valves that need
cleaning/replacement.

Terry Neal
Bozeman, MT
82PT40 6V92TA
74FC34 6V53T



Pete Masterson wrote:

> My experience was much the same. My coach had dual water pumps, but I
> almost always ran them one at a time. When I had both pumps run, it
> didn't seem like it changed anything.
>
> The main motive for my performing the upgrade was that both pumps in
> the original installation were seeping at the joint where the motor
> attaches to the pump body. It appeared that a rebuild would be
> required for both pumps. Doing the rebuild would probably have been
> less expensive, but the complexity of the current system was not
> attractive.
>
> I removed both pumps and the accumulator tank.
>
> I installed the Shurflow variable speed pump in the same location and
> re-plumbed the connections. My coach uses polybutyl pipe, so I got
> connectors from PEX Connection that mated to the polybutyl and used
> PEX 3/4 inch tubing to connect the pump. (3/4 inch was selected due
> to a comment in the pump instructions that "feeding into a 3/4 inch
> pipe was preferred.") I note that the inlet and outlet fittings that
> come with the pump are 1/2 inch. I used plastic plumbing fittings for
> the reduction.
>
> I wired the new pump to the "A" side of the selector switch and
> capped off the "B" side wire.
>
> Non-technical observations --
>
> Original:
> so-so water pressure (takes forever for hot water to reach the
> kitchen sink -- and I'd _never_ gotten hot water to the bathroom sink).
> quiet -- but I can hear the pump run from time to time when the
> pressure in the accumulator tank drops.
> Accumulator tank has absolutely no lag once the system is pressurized.
>
> New set up:
> good water pressure -- hot water arrives fairly quickly, even in the
> bathroom sink.
> Shower head doesn't provide "stinging" spray (by design) but pressure
> no longer feels like a dribble
> drains water tank faster
> not quite as quiet, but not objectionable. Only operates when water
> is demanded.
> Microphor toilet doesn't always refill with water -- must hold handle
> down a bit longer when flushing to ensure that the water pump starts
> up -- or flush twice. (A minor inconvenience.) This is the only
> situation where the fraction-of-a-second lag before the pump starts
> is noticeable.
>
> Note: On my coach the original water pumps are installed in a
> basement compartment attached to a wooden block screwed to a metal
> bulkhead. The much stronger vibration from the new pump does create a
> more noticeable pump noise. The PEX pipe was installed in a way to
> reduce/eliminate transferring the vibration through the plumbing system.
>
> If I had it to do over again:
> I wouldn't have used the PEX, but rather I'd have used a metal braid
> covered "water heater" connection pipe I ran across in the hardware
> store. These water heater connectors are flexible, 3/4 inch diameter
> "hoses" but the fittings on the end use standard pipe threads.
> (DIfferent PB-FPT fittings would have been required and I'd already
> purchased the PB-PEX fittings.)
>
> The PEX, in 3/4 inch size, proved quite difficult to position into
> the small radius bends required for the available space. 1/2 inch PEX
> would have been much easier to work with, but would have been a more
> restrictive flow to/from the pump.
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Ralph L. Fullenwider wrote:
>
> > Good morning to everyone:
> >
> > Now that I have the water problems solved in the '84FC, I was asked
> > to post
> > my thoughts on the validity of the up grade.
> >
> > The following is from my feeling and what I now have over what was
> > installed and not from any technical standpoint.
> >
> > Old pump; 40 PSI @ 4gpm Par pump
> >
> > Good pressure
> > Noisy
> > must have accumulator tank
> > no shower while doing dish
> >
> > New pump; Surflow 65Psi @ 5.7 GPM Variable speed
> >
> > Stinging shower normal shower with kitchen faucet running
> > Is it running? very quiet
> > removed accumulator tank
> > Will drain fresh water tank faster
> >
> > I like the up grade even though it did point out that I had a water
> > pressure problem that I did not know I had until it was installed.
> >
> > What I forsee with Coaches with dual water pumps. A single pump
> > giving more
> > pressure than both dual pumps on the A/B switch since the dual
> > pumps are
> > generally 40 PSI @ 3 GPM
> >
> > All that being said, even with the increase of price, it is a good
> > viable
> > up grade and I recommend it.
> >
> > Higher pressures? Well these Coaches must pass a 115 static PSI
> > test for
> > the RVIA standard, so 65 PSI is well within that range. Even if 2
> > 65 PSI
> > pumps were installed on the dual system, the variable speed pumps
> > would or
> > should equalize and at most would give you a constant 65 PSI with all
> > faucets running
> >
> >
> > Safe travels,
> >
> > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > '84 FC35 Duncan, Oklahoma
> > Ralph's RV Solutions
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Masterson]

Don't take my comments as a negative on PEX ... I think it's a great
product, especially in an RV. Most of the time you can run (with
bends, etc.) with a single piece of material and not require any
intermediate fittings (the major source of potential leaks). The
stuff is designed to be 'bent' in the 14" or so space between studs
in a home so you don't need an angle fitting. The technique requires
making a loop in the "wrong" direction so that there's slack for
thermal expansion. This looping proved to be difficult with the 3/4
inch PEX in the rather limited confines of the area I had available
(about 10" on either side of the pump) in the coach compartment. It
helped to heat the PEX tubing (in a laundry tub with hot water)
before making the bends. And, like I said, the 1/2 inch material
(probably sufficient for service to your sinks) would be much easier
to bend.

I also highly recommend PEX Connection for the fittings needed. Their
fittings are all compression-type and require no clincher or other
hard to master tool. Just press together and tighten up the ends.
Really very clever.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Feb 26, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Terry Neal wrote:

> Thanks Pete for an excellent report of your pump replacement. I am
> glad
> to hear the PEX comments too. I may wind up replacing all of my
> copper
> pipes with PEX but now I know what to expect if just using the PEX to
> make the hook up to the system. I have only one pump in my system & I
> do want to take out the accumulator tank in any event. I do get real
> hot water quickly at the bath sink & the shower now. Maybe 5-8
> seconds
> delay at the most. I have noticed higher water pressure on the Hot
> side
> vs the Cold side though. Suspect I have some valves that need
> cleaning/replacement.
>
> Terry Neal
> Bozeman, MT
> 82PT40 6V92TA
> 74FC34 6V53T
>
<snip>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ernieekberg@...>]

Pete- last year, when replacing my copper lines I used PEX with the crimper
tool. It was murder to get it to work in small spaces. I didn't know there were
other fittings available.
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston,Montana
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Up graded fresh water pump


Don't take my comments as a negative on PEX ... I think it's a great
product, especially in an RV. Most of the time you can run (with
bends, etc.) with a single piece of material and not require any
intermediate fittings (the major source of potential leaks). The
stuff is designed to be 'bent' in the 14" or so space between studs
in a home so you don't need an angle fitting. The technique requires
making a loop in the "wrong" direction so that there's slack for
thermal expansion. This looping proved to be difficult with the 3/4
inch PEX in the rather limited confines of the area I had available
(about 10" on either side of the pump) in the coach compartment. It
helped to heat the PEX tubing (in a laundry tub with hot water)
before making the bends. And, like I said, the 1/2 inch material
(probably sufficient for service to your sinks) would be much easier
to bend.

I also highly recommend PEX Connection for the fittings needed. Their
fittings are all compression-type and require no clincher or other
hard to master tool. Just press together and tighten up the ends.
Really very clever.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Feb 26, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Terry Neal wrote:

> Thanks Pete for an excellent report of your pump replacement. I am
> glad
> to hear the PEX comments too. I may wind up replacing all of my
> copper
> pipes with PEX but now I know what to expect if just using the PEX to
> make the hook up to the system. I have only one pump in my system & I
> do want to take out the accumulator tank in any event. I do get real
> hot water quickly at the bath sink & the shower now. Maybe 5-8
> seconds
> delay at the most. I have noticed higher water pressure on the Hot
> side
> vs the Cold side though. Suspect I have some valves that need
> cleaning/replacement.
>
> Terry Neal
> Bozeman, MT
> 82PT40 6V92TA
> 74FC34 6V53T
>
<snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Masterson]

Ernie,

Exactly what I've heard about PEX crimper tools ... hard to use
especially in tight spaces. The fittings are called "Flair-It" and
can be viewed at PEX Connection at
<http://www.pexconnection.com/categories.php?catID=2>

Flair-It also has a web site, but it isn't nearly as useful as the
PEX Connection site. The 'birds with the Polybutyl plumbing also use
the Flair-It fittings.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Feb 26, 2007, at 2:50 PM, ernieekberg@... wrote:

> Pete- last year, when replacing my copper lines I used PEX with the
> crimper tool. It was murder to get it to work in small spaces. I
> didn't know there were other fittings available.
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Livingston,Montana



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ernieekberg@...>]

Thanks, Pete, they look a whole lot easier to use in my tight, cramped spaces. I
was going to give up finishing the job because of the cramped spaces.
Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston,Montana
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Up graded fresh water pump


Ernie,

Exactly what I've heard about PEX crimper tools ... hard to use
especially in tight spaces. The fittings are called "Flair-It" and
can be viewed at PEX Connection at
<http://www.pexconnection.com/categories.php?catID=2>

Flair-It also has a web site, but it isn't nearly as useful as the
PEX Connection site. The 'birds with the Polybutyl plumbing also use
the Flair-It fittings.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA

On Feb 26, 2007, at 2:50 PM, ernieekberg@... wrote:

> Pete- last year, when replacing my copper lines I used PEX with the
> crimper tool. It was murder to get it to work in small spaces. I
> didn't know there were other fittings available.
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Livingston,Montana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Masterson]

Go ahead and order the little tool they offer if you have very many
fittings. I used channel-lock pliers, but that tears up the 'grips'
on the outside of the threaded ends. Since I only had 4 fittings I
didn't bother with their tool, but it would have made for a better
looking installation. (Actually, I didn't notice their tool until
after I'd submitted my order.)

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Feb 26, 2007, at 4:44 PM, ernieekberg@... wrote:

> Thanks, Pete, they look a whole lot easier to use in my tight,
> cramped spaces. I was going to give up finishing the job because of
> the cramped spaces.
> Ernie Ekberg
> 83PT40
> Livingston,Montana
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Masterson
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Up graded fresh water pump
>
>
> Ernie,
>
> Exactly what I've heard about PEX crimper tools ... hard to use
> especially in tight spaces. The fittings are called "Flair-It" and
> can be viewed at PEX Connection at
> <http://www.pexconnection.com/categories.php?catID=2>
>
> Flair-It also has a web site, but it isn't nearly as useful as the
> PEX Connection site. The 'birds with the Polybutyl plumbing also use
> the Flair-It fittings.
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 2:50 PM, ernieekberg@... wrote:
>
>> Pete- last year, when replacing my copper lines I used PEX with the
>> crimper tool. It was murder to get it to work in small spaces. I
>> didn't know there were other fittings available.
>> Ernie Ekberg
>> 83PT40
>> Livingston,Montana
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]