Engine & Tranny problems 2

[jvredden@...]

Ron,
I have a 91. Let the forum know what you find out. Anyone with a DDEC2
should have an interest

john redden
91PT40



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ronmarabito2002]

I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time I
was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of power.
Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph at
full throttle.

Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When making a
hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.

S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could only
make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this point,
but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air filter,
they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine. Could
not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.

I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are fine.
Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.

I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly yesterday,
damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$

Let you know more tomorrow.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM

[Gregory OConnor]

Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high amp high
discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
easily correctable.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
>
> I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
I
> was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
power.
> Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
at
> full throttle.
>
> Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
making a
> hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
>
> S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
only
> make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
point,
> but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
filter,
> they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
Could
> not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
>
> I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
fine.
> Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
>
> I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
yesterday,
> damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
>
> Let you know more tomorrow.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
>

[Chuck Wheeler]

Ron, agree with Greg and would want to find the problem BEFORE a replacement
the ECM is replaced. To pull that kind of heavy current there is a problem
on one of the DC busses. If my memory is correct you recently did some
alternator work. If so start there, check each alternator output
independently, if they are good go around the coach and check all DC items
especially chargers, inverters, connection between the generator 12vdc and
the main bus. Inspect as much as possible. I would expect to see or
smell something.



- Chuck Wheeler -

82 FC 31 SB

Fort Worth, TX

_____

From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gregory OConnor
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:59 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2



Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high amp high
discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
easily correctable.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
>
> I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
I
> was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
power.
> Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
at
> full throttle.
>
> Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
making a
> hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
>
> S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
only
> make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
point,
> but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
filter,
> they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
Could
> not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
>
> I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
fine.
> Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
>
> I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
yesterday,
> damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
>
> Let you know more tomorrow.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jim riordan]

Well,

I had alot of guage problems, I found that I had alternator problems, when I
replaced both alternators those problems ceased. I have DDEC1 the Alternator
problem did not cause any problems with them. What kind of error codes are you
getting?

Jim Riordan
88 WBWL XXV
Stuart, Fl

Gregory OConnor wrote:
Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high amp high
discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
easily correctable.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
>
> I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
I
> was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
power.
> Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
at
> full throttle.
>
> Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
making a
> hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
>
> S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
only
> make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
point,
> but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
filter,
> they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
Could
> not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
>
> I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
fine.
> Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
>
> I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
yesterday,
> damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
>
> Let you know more tomorrow.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
>






---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ronmarabito2002]

I'll bring this up this morning at the shop. The house batteries need
to be checked because they were installed in 98. Top notch gel cells
often go this far, but could be a problem.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory OConnor"
wrote:
>
> Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high amp high
> discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
> uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
> all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
> engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
> problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
> easily correctable.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> wrote:
> >
> > I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> > power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> > Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> > total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
> I
> > was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
> power.
> > Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
> at
> > full throttle.
> >
> > Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> > intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
> making a
> > hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
> >
> > S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
> only
> > make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> > opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
> point,
> > but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
> filter,
> > they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> > had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
> Could
> > not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
> >
> > I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
> fine.
> > Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
> >
> > I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
> yesterday,
> > damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
> >
> > Let you know more tomorrow.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
> >
>

[ronmarabito2002]

Good advice. I wish I was at home to save the cost of the high labor
in the shop.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Wheeler"
wrote:
>
> Ron, agree with Greg and would want to find the problem BEFORE a
replacement
> the ECM is replaced. To pull that kind of heavy current there is a
problem
> on one of the DC busses. If my memory is correct you recently did some
> alternator work. If so start there, check each alternator output
> independently, if they are good go around the coach and check all DC
items
> especially chargers, inverters, connection between the generator
12vdc and
> the main bus. Inspect as much as possible. I would expect to see or
> smell something.
>
>
>
> - Chuck Wheeler -
>
> 82 FC 31 SB
>
> Fort Worth, TX
>
> _____
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gregory OConnor
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:59 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2
>
>
>
> Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high amp high
> discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
> uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
> all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
> engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
> problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
> easily correctable.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@
> yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> wrote:
> >
> > I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> > power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> > Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> > total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
> I
> > was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
> power.
> > Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
> at
> > full throttle.
> >
> > Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> > intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
> making a
> > hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
> >
> > S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
> only
> > make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> > opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
> point,
> > but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
> filter,
> > they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> > had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
> Could
> > not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
> >
> > I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
> fine.
> > Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
> >
> > I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
> yesterday,
> > damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
> >
> > Let you know more tomorrow.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[ronmarabito2002]

Had three error codes. 16, 44, and 52 52 was a ECM failure, one has
a high coolant temp and can't remember off hand the other since I'm
not currently at the coach. Both alternators were completely
re-built, so I doubt the problem is there.. Right now, with the high
amp pull and low voltage, I am more suspicious of the batteries.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, jim riordan wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> I had alot of guage problems, I found that I had alternator
problems, when I replaced both alternators those problems ceased. I
have DDEC1 the Alternator problem did not cause any problems with
them. What kind of error codes are you getting?
>
> Jim Riordan
> 88 WBWL XXV
> Stuart, Fl
>
> Gregory OConnor wrote:
> Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high
amp high
> discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
> uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
> all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
> engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
> problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
> easily correctable.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> wrote:
> >
> > I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> > power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> > Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> > total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
> I
> > was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
> power.
> > Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
> at
> > full throttle.
> >
> > Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> > intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
> making a
> > hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
> >
> > S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
> only
> > make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> > opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
> point,
> > but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
> filter,
> > they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> > had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
> Could
> > not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
> >
> > I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
> fine.
> > Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
> >
> > I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
> yesterday,
> > damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
> >
> > Let you know more tomorrow.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Troy Tikalsky]

When troubleshooting problems I always look at the last changes made. You
mentioned the alternators were recently rebuilt, how many hours use since the
rebuild? Since the problem you are having is voltage related I would check the
alternators first and remove them from the equation. Are the alternators
required for the motor to run or will the batteries provide enough power for a
short test?

Troy Tikalsky
Waconia, MN
1986 Newell DD8V92


----- Original Message -----
From: ronmarabito2002
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Engine & Tranny problems 2


Had three error codes. 16, 44, and 52 52 was a ECM failure, one has
a high coolant temp and can't remember off hand the other since I'm
not currently at the coach. Both alternators were completely
re-built, so I doubt the problem is there.. Right now, with the high
amp pull and low voltage, I am more suspicious of the batteries.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, jim riordan wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> I had alot of guage problems, I found that I had alternator
problems, when I replaced both alternators those problems ceased. I
have DDEC1 the Alternator problem did not cause any problems with
them. What kind of error codes are you getting?
>
> Jim Riordan
> 88 WBWL XXV
> Stuart, Fl
>
> Gregory OConnor wrote:
> Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high
amp high
> discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
> uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
> all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
> engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
> problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
> easily correctable.
> GregoryO'Connor
> 94ptRomolandCa
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> wrote:
> >
> > I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> > power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> > Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> > total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
> I
> > was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
> power.
> > Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
> at
> > full throttle.
> >
> > Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> > intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
> making a
> > hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
> >
> > S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
> only
> > make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> > opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
> point,
> > but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
> filter,
> > they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> > had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
> Could
> > not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
> >
> > I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
> fine.
> > Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
> >
> > I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
> yesterday,
> > damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
> >
> > Let you know more tomorrow.
> >
> > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ronmarabito2002]

Just talked to the shop. Nothing on the electrical at this point, but
they found low fuel pressure, changed filters. I had asked them to
change the air filter anyway, because it was needing it.

They found a hole in one of the turbo boost pipes and repaired it.
That alone could have caused some of the power loss. It says nothing
about the crazy throttle response where at full throttle, we only got
1900 rpm and when backed off, we got the full 2200 rpm.

They are getting ready to go do a new throttle response test and power
test. I will talk with the manager shortly to see about having the
batteries isolated and tested.

More info a little later. I will not have internet in a little while,
so I may have to update you when I can find service.

R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
Currently in shop in Albuquerque, NM

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
wrote:
>
> Had three error codes. 16, 44, and 52 52 was a ECM failure, one has
> a high coolant temp and can't remember off hand the other since I'm
> not currently at the coach. Both alternators were completely
> re-built, so I doubt the problem is there.. Right now, with the high
> amp pull and low voltage, I am more suspicious of the batteries.
>
> R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, jim riordan wrote:
> >
> > Well,
> >
> > I had alot of guage problems, I found that I had alternator
> problems, when I replaced both alternators those problems ceased. I
> have DDEC1 the Alternator problem did not cause any problems with
> them. What kind of error codes are you getting?
> >
> > Jim Riordan
> > 88 WBWL XXV
> > Stuart, Fl
> >
> > Gregory OConnor wrote:
> > Ron, Often overlooked by class 8 repair shops are the high
> amp high
> > discharge /recharge inverter drawn powersource on a motorhome. The
> > uncommon factors sometimes reveal possible conclusions. I would pull
> > all 11 batteries (disconnect) and install one proven battery at the
> > engine start bank to continue the test. The Carvers had wierd
> > problems that proved to be bad batteries. I hope it is somthing
> > easily correctable.
> > GregoryO'Connor
> > 94ptRomolandCa
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "ronmarabito2002"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I had to pull into Stewart & Stevenson in Albuquerque with engine
> > > power problems and shift problems. It all started after we left
> > > Dallas yesterday. I had a sudden 170 amps and 10 volts, followed by
> > > total loss of 12 v power to instruments, radio, etc... By the time
> > I
> > > was off the road, the power was back. I then noticed a lack of
> > power.
> > > Pulled some minor grades of 2 or 3% with a drop in speed to 50 mph
> > at
> > > full throttle.
> > >
> > > Nursed the unit in to Albuqerque this morning. Had a fuel gage
> > > intermittent that went from normal to full peg on full. When
> > making a
> > > hard left turn, transmission check light would flash and beep.
> > >
> > > S & S did a power check and found at full throttle, engine could
> > only
> > > make 1900 rpm. When backed off, the rpm went up to 2200. Just the
> > > opposite of normal. They are very suspect of the DDEC2 at this
> > point,
> > > but are trying to rule out everything else first. Changed air
> > filter,
> > > they were started on a fuel system check when I left for dinner. I
> > > had checked all the connectors this morning and they were fine.
> > Could
> > > not trouble shoot because I have no diagram of those circuits.
> > >
> > > I know the grounds on the alternators and engine to chassis are
> > fine.
> > > Not sure about any others, but they are checking them.
> > >
> > > I'm convinced that whatever caused that electrical anomoly
> > yesterday,
> > > damaged the ECM and it will probably have to be replaced. $$$$
> > >
> > > Let you know more tomorrow.
> > >
> > > R.E. (Ron) Marabito, Dallas, TX 92WB40
> > > Currently in the shop in Albuquerque, NM
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>