Tools and Fixit Stuff

[msecoolcal@...]

Tools are like pants,
Some you like and some you don't. Some fit you better then others and some
are for special occasions. Some are the perfect size and others don't fit at
all. Most of us don't throw out the old ones like we know we should. Some are
our favorites and some we could live without. Some are short and some are
long. We all had to learn to put them on one leg at a time and that they were
very necessary. But one thing is for sure, we never leave home without um.

Matthew
1979 fcsb
So Cal



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[runnerful]

I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
operator.

I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.

1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
2. Is it useful?
3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
owner?
4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
store brand tools?
5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
prepared to do?

I appreciate your input,
Ginger
BB wannabee

[bubblerboy64]

Boy, That's a tuff one to answer and to at the same time provide
something useful in the way of information. I tend to think that I
would not buy much in the way of tools until you find a specific
need. I think I would invest in a simple tool kit which you can find
at any of stores such as Home Depot or Lowe's. If you don't already
have them. Plier, asorted screw drivers, wrenches etc. I don't own a
BB as yet as well but I do have a 5th wheel trailer. We each have our
own comfort level as to what types of repairs and fixits we are able
and willing to tackle. Not too certain a BB is the place to start.
My impression is that you have to be a pretty skilled mechanic
plumber carpenter and electician to tackle much in the repairs of
this creatures. I will make the statement that vintage bluebirds are
best in the hands of rather advanced amature repair people or the
full professionals. I can do some repairs. I added a bathroom in
the basement of my home. I can do simple plumbing and carpentry. Not
too certain there is much I would tackle on a BB other then maybe
cosmetic improvements. Everyone I have talked to tells me be prepared
to spend some money on these older MH's. This is something I am
factoring into my purchase price and into my decision making. Am I a
candidate for this type of thing? I would suggest perhaps you
consider not attempting repairs. If you don't do it right you can
make it worse and spend even more. Not to discourage but in my
opinion (for what ever its worth) I don't think I would pick a BB as
a place to learn. John Heckman










>
> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver,
vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
> 2. Is it useful?
> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average
skill
> owner?
> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?
> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?
>
> I appreciate your input,
> Ginger
> BB wannabee
>

[Curt Sprenger]

Ginger,

The Bluebird Options List for 1987 is on its way to you.

Yes, some tools should be carried, screwdrivers of various
lengths.sizes, pliers, 1/4" drive socket set with shallow and deep
sockets, assortment of 1 amp to 20 amp glass fuses, 12V test light, tire
air gauge, and more.

If the tools are going to be used for working on the Bird, say little
use, then you can get buy with the less expensive brands.

Simple common jobs...check tire pressure, be able to use a 12V test
light for locating and changing out burned out 12V fuses, change light
bulbs, fill water tank, dump holding tanks, frequently check battery
water level and add distilled water when needed, to mention a few.

In the past 30+ years I've purchased a number of new and used coaches.
After a few years, the plastic palace units were more work to maintain
than I've had to put into the two Wanderlodges. And today the old Birds
are worth way more than any of those plastic coaches, that's assuming
they still have value and not in a junk yard.

Good luck with your decision.

Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, Calif.



runnerful wrote:

> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
>

> 2. Is it useful?
> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
> owner?
> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?
> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?
>
> I appreciate your input,
> Ginger
> BB wannabee
>
>

[Wilhelmus Schreurs]

Ginger;
I purchased myself a BB last year, and like others have said, be prepared to
spend additional monies to have it right.
I bought mine from Randy Dupree, and some of the costly items that has to be
replaced or repaired had already been done. Things such as:
Tires - cost $3000
Fridge - used to new - $500 - 1800
Inverter instead of rediline - $1500 - 2500
Batteries - 4 each - $400

During the past couple of months I have had to do such things as:
Rear furnace was blowing soot - required a few items $50
Repair leaks to the entry step - time required
Flourescent lighting - replaced some but now have to buy more parts figure $50
per lamp


Items done recently at a mechanic shop, I was helping him, hey this was very
helpful, some things I will be able to do myself next time, other things will
take back for him to do:
Engine oil changed
Air dryer dessicant changed, oil leaking from spitter valve
Ground wire repaired from alternator - that fixed my erratic charging
Installed valve for electric air compressor
Replaced broken front brake air line
Replaced very damaged fuel line from primer pump
Lubricated Chassis
Replaced filter for engine air compressor
Replaced both front automatic brake adjusters

Also while under the coach, there were wires off from the fuel tank etc. We
inspected it, checked it twice and made another list of things which has to be
done.

The cost was well worth the $600 of knowledge which I picked up.

As you read, most of the items was of a mechanical nature, my weak point. I am
an industrial electrician so that helps with the electrical part.

So, what am I trying to say, purchase the best that you can afford, but pay
attention to the major items such as listed above. Find out what kind of
maintenance has been done on the engine, regular oil changes is almost a must.
This will also determine what kind of tool chest that you will require on the
road. If you have to continue to fix it as you go, well, have a good tool chest
ready.
Also, from experience, don't buy the cheapie tools, does not have to be the best
either though, screwdriver tips break off, wrench corners will become round,
knuckle busters, and you will curse yourself for buying them.
I like craftsman tools from Sears, fairly good tool, and exchange policy for
broken tools is the best, take it in and they will replace, no questions asked,
and without a receipt.

One last question, where u from?

Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada




----- Original Message ----
From: runnerful
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:16:14 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Tools and Fixit Stuff

I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
operator.

I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.

1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
2. Is it useful?
3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
owner?
4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
store brand tools?
5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
prepared to do?

I appreciate your input,
Ginger
BB wannabee





Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Pete Masterson]

On May 20, 2007, at 1:16 PM, runnerful wrote:

> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?

Not sure if standard or an option... but many 'birds I looked at had
a tool box. The one I bought had the pull-out metal rack to hold "a
certain model of Craftsman tool box." But the box, itself, was no
longer present

As it happened, I own a Craftsman too box that fit the rack ... but
it was too tall. No problem, as the space above was dedicated to a
(also) no longer present electric BBQ grill. I removed the pull out
tray for the grill and repositioned the shelf to make room for my
tool box. I built a wooden box to ride on the rack that fits the
space behind the tool box.

Inside the tool box, I carry a selection of tools that I might use
while on the road. Behind the box, I carry extra oil and radiator
coolant along with the cables used with my toad (when not in use). On
the shelf above (where the bbq was removed) I carry a tool box with
electrical-related tools (more portable) and a tool box with
accessories that go with the compressor I carry on board.

> 2. Is it useful?

Well, it's a convenience to have a selection of screw drivers,
sockets, wrenches, pliers, etc. handy for most any need.

> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
> owner?

Well, the most common issues that need attention while on the road
are typically electrical in nature. I carry various test devices, a
multi-meter, polarity tester, continuity tester, fuses, spare wire
(in several sizes and colors) crimping tool, and various ends and
connectors that can be crimped onto wires.

I also carry a set of general "mechanics" tools, metric and English
measure sockets and open end wrenches in the most common sizes (I
also cover the needs of my tow vehicle) as well as a 1/2" drive set
of some larger English size sockets. Several different sizes of
adjustable wrenches, channel lock, and vise-grips. A variety of
pliers (electrical, slip joint, needle nose, etc.); hammer, rubber
mallet (especially helpful when the pins in the tow bar are reluctant
to release). WD-40 and powdered graphite (for locks). Box cutter,
some files, and a variety of tools that you'd have in any house (for
plumbing, electrical, and mechanical needs). The collection tends not
to be "deep" but rather "broad" to cover contingencies that are most
likely --- and within my skill set to repair.

I do not carry jacks or tire changing tools. While this may seem a
wise contingency, I can't picture myself actually changing a tire on
the coach -- for those contingencies, I carry, and Emergency Road
Service card, MasterCard, checkbook, and cash.

I also have an electric drill (one plug-in 3/8 model for serious
drilling and one 13.8 v battery powered model most suitable as a
screwdriver) with a selection of bits. I also have a Dremel tool with
a variety of grinding bits and misc. other attachments. (I had to cut
off the head of a bolt, once, for something I now forget.) These
items are on board mostly because I didn't remove them at the
beginning of the trip -- I've used the battery powered drill to drive
a couple of screws, but I haven't used the other power tools while on
the road.

> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?

Depends on the store. Craftsman brand (Sears), while once a superior
brand has faded somewhat -- but I have several of those tools that
have proven satisfactory. Most tools come in several quality lines:
casual user, hobbiest, and professional grade. In general, I'd avoid
the casual user quality (these are the $29.95 electric saw, etc.) and
stick with the "hobby" level tools. (That would be tools that are
priced between the cheapest and the more expensive lines.) The pro-
level tools aren't usually necessary for most 'bird owners -- unless
they're professionals and have requirements beyond their needs for
their coach. My sockets are Kmart brand -- purchased 40 years ago
when Kmart was trying to compete with Craftsman (they're pretty good,
but I doubt the current Kmart tools are anywhere near the same
quality). The open end wrenches I have were also purchased 40 years
ago and are a mid-quality brand.

> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?

The most common issue I've had to deal with are electrical gremlins.
The wiring is complex -- the 12 v system suffers from rather long
runs (causing voltage drops) and a history of multiple ownership and
modification may mean some shortcuts were made.

I've had to trace out and fix several minor wiring glitches. For
example, the electrical wires serving the passenger seat adjustments
have gone dead. I cannot find a blown fuse or other obvious reason.
Since I prefer to not fiddle extensively with the wiring (beyond
immediate trouble shooting) when I'm on the road, I've rigged up a
temporary fix by making up a plug for the cigarette lighter to power
the seat. I'll either find the wiring fault or wire up a bypass
circuit when I return home (where an error on my part won't
jeopardize our travel). The trouble shooting and temporary fix
required use of the multi-meter, circuit tester, some spare wire, a
couple of connectors, electrical pliers (wire cutter) and the
crimping tool -- plus a plug from an auto-parts store for the lighter
socket.

Other common on-road fixes include changing out fuel filters (I carry
a couple fuel and oil filters for the engine and generator), tire-
related issues (I prefer road service for that, simply due to the
heavy lifting and danger involved), and (as I mentioned) electrical
glitches.

I also carry spare coolant (premixed 50/50) as my coach tends to lose
about a half-quart or so for every 300 to 400 miles. (I've searched
for a minor leak, but none has been found.)

Each coach will probably exhibit some "personality" where certain
issues arise (repeatedly) that you'll need to attend to... these are
likely to be different for each vehicle, but you'll learn to carry
appropriate tools or supplies to accommodate those needs.

I carry a compressor since I don't have a full aux. compressor and I
need to "air up" to operate the dump valves. It beats running the
engine for air to use the compressor instead. (I plan some revisions
to the dump valve air supply when I'm able to work on those systems.)
The compressor also allows me to check and adjust the tire inflation
conveniently (again, without the engine compressor).

Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
aeonix1@...
On the road at Lockhart Texas

[Rob Robinson]

Ginger it sounds like you have most of the tools you need in a basic tool
kit. Curt's list will top you up. When you come across a project or
modification you feel capable of then by all means go out and rent or buy
the additional tools needed for a specific job. Enjoy your Bird

On 20/05/07, runnerful wrote:
>
> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
> 2. Is it useful?
> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
> owner?
> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?
> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?
>
> I appreciate your input,
> Ginger
> BB wannabee
>
>
>



--
Rob, Sue & Merlin Robinson
94 WLWB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Stephen Birtles]

Reballast the fluorescent lights only 24 for the small light and 34
for the large ones not fifty
Stepehen 77fc35


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
wrote:
>
> Ginger;
> I purchased myself a BB last year, and like others have said, be
prepared to spend additional monies to have it right.
> I bought mine from Randy Dupree, and some of the costly items that
has to be replaced or repaired had already been done. Things such as:
> Tires - cost $3000
> Fridge - used to new - $500 - 1800
> Inverter instead of rediline - $1500 - 2500
> Batteries - 4 each - $400
>
> During the past couple of months I have had to do such things as:
> Rear furnace was blowing soot - required a few items $50
> Repair leaks to the entry step - time required
> Flourescent lighting - replaced some but now have to buy more parts
figure $50 per lamp
>
>
> Items done recently at a mechanic shop, I was helping him, hey this
was very helpful, some things I will be able to do myself next time,
other things will take back for him to do:
> Engine oil changed
> Air dryer dessicant changed, oil leaking from spitter valve
> Ground wire repaired from alternator - that fixed my erratic charging
> Installed valve for electric air compressor
> Replaced broken front brake air line
> Replaced very damaged fuel line from primer pump
> Lubricated Chassis
> Replaced filter for engine air compressor
> Replaced both front automatic brake adjusters
>
> Also while under the coach, there were wires off from the fuel tank
etc. We inspected it, checked it twice and made another list of
things which has to be done.
>
> The cost was well worth the $600 of knowledge which I picked up.
>
> As you read, most of the items was of a mechanical nature, my weak
point. I am an industrial electrician so that helps with the
electrical part.
>
> So, what am I trying to say, purchase the best that you can afford,
but pay attention to the major items such as listed above. Find out
what kind of maintenance has been done on the engine, regular oil
changes is almost a must.
> This will also determine what kind of tool chest that you will
require on the road. If you have to continue to fix it as you go,
well, have a good tool chest ready.
> Also, from experience, don't buy the cheapie tools, does not have to
be the best either though, screwdriver tips break off, wrench corners
will become round, knuckle busters, and you will curse yourself for
buying them.
> I like craftsman tools from Sears, fairly good tool, and exchange
policy for broken tools is the best, take it in and they will replace,
no questions asked, and without a receipt.
>
> One last question, where u from?
>
> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> Terrace, B.C. Canada
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: runnerful
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:16:14 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Tools and Fixit Stuff
>
> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
> 2. Is it useful?
> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
> owner?
> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?
> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?
>
> I appreciate your input,
> Ginger
> BB wannabee
>
>
>
>
>
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Wilhelmus Schreurs]

Very true Stephen, but you forgot to add a bulb and shipping, hmmm how much
change would one get then??

Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
Terrace, B.C. Canada




----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen Birtles
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:14:39 PM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Tools and Fixit Stuff

Reballast the fluorescent lights only 24 for the small light and 34
for the large ones not fifty
Stepehen 77fc35

--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, Wilhelmus Schreurs
wrote:
>
> Ginger;
> I purchased myself a BB last year, and like others have said, be
prepared to spend additional monies to have it right.
> I bought mine from Randy Dupree, and some of the costly items that
has to be replaced or repaired had already been done. Things such as:
> Tires - cost $3000
> Fridge - used to new - $500 - 1800
> Inverter instead of rediline - $1500 - 2500
> Batteries - 4 each - $400
>
> During the past couple of months I have had to do such things as:
> Rear furnace was blowing soot - required a few items $50
> Repair leaks to the entry step - time required
> Flourescent lighting - replaced some but now have to buy more parts
figure $50 per lamp
>
>
> Items done recently at a mechanic shop, I was helping him, hey this
was very helpful, some things I will be able to do myself next time,
other things will take back for him to do:
> Engine oil changed
> Air dryer dessicant changed, oil leaking from spitter valve
> Ground wire repaired from alternator - that fixed my erratic charging
> Installed valve for electric air compressor
> Replaced broken front brake air line
> Replaced very damaged fuel line from primer pump
> Lubricated Chassis
> Replaced filter for engine air compressor
> Replaced both front automatic brake adjusters
>
> Also while under the coach, there were wires off from the fuel tank
etc. We inspected it, checked it twice and made another list of
things which has to be done.
>
> The cost was well worth the $600 of knowledge which I picked up.
>
> As you read, most of the items was of a mechanical nature, my weak
point. I am an industrial electrician so that helps with the
electrical part.
>
> So, what am I trying to say, purchase the best that you can afford,
but pay attention to the major items such as listed above. Find out
what kind of maintenance has been done on the engine, regular oil
changes is almost a must.
> This will also determine what kind of tool chest that you will
require on the road. If you have to continue to fix it as you go,
well, have a good tool chest ready.
> Also, from experience, don't buy the cheapie tools, does not have to
be the best either though, screwdriver tips break off, wrench corners
will become round, knuckle busters, and you will curse yourself for
buying them.
> I like craftsman tools from Sears, fairly good tool, and exchange
policy for broken tools is the best, take it in and they will replace,
no questions asked, and without a receipt.
>
> One last question, where u from?
>
> Bill 84 FC 35 SB "$quanderlodge"
> Terrace, B.C. Canada
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: runnerful
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:16:14 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Tools and Fixit Stuff
>
> I don't have much of a tool collestion: a hammer, screw driver, vice
> grips. If I need anything fancier, I want it to come with its own
> operator.
>
> I realise that as a BB owner, I should develop some "fixit" skills
> and an appropriate arsenal of tools. I also notice that some birds
> come with a HUGE tool chest in one of the roll out trays.
>
> 1. Is this tool chest a standard item?
> 2. Is it useful?
> 3. What is the "must have" list of tools for a low to average skill
> owner?
> 4. Are brand name tools like Dewalt worth their extra cost over
> store brand tools?
> 5. What are some of the relatively simple, common jobs I should be
> prepared to do?
>
> I appreciate your input,
> Ginger
> BB wannabee
>
>
>
>
>
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
http://mrd.mail. yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[runnerful]

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
wrote:
>
> Boy, That's a tuff one to answer and to at the same time provide
> something useful in the way of information. I tend to think that
I
> would not buy much in the way of tools until you find a specific
> need. I think I would invest in a simple tool kit which you can
find
> at any of stores such as Home Depot or Lowe's. If you don't
already
> have them. Plier, asorted screw drivers, wrenches etc.

THat's kinda what I was thiking. If the seller is forthcoming, I'm
hoping they will fill me in on any "issues" the coach has that would
help the initial decision.

> I don't own a
> BB as yet

Ahhh, do you have a schedule?
My experiences have been with tents, tent trailers, a pull-behind
trailer and an old Winnie with the bed suspended over the driving
area. But, other than tenting, I was never solo and could rely on
the "Hoey Dew" list. LOL Now, there's just me and I have to get up
to speed.

> as well but I do have a 5th wheel trailer. We each have our
> own comfort level as to what types of repairs and fixits we are
able
> and willing to tackle. Not too certain a BB is the place to
start.

Gotta start somewhere. I feel more comfortable with electrical stuff
than with mechanical. I have expreience with electrical diagrams
and soldering electronic boards and such. What worries me about BB
electrical is how often there are redundant systems. Basic plumbing
like replacing faucets etc is no mystery. But engine stuff is"terra
incognita" and pretty scary.

> My impression is that you have to be a pretty skilled mechanic
> plumber carpenter and electician to tackle much in the repairs of
> this creatures. I will make the statement that vintage bluebirds
are
> best in the hands of rather advanced amature repair people or the
> full professionals. I can do some repairs. I added a bathroom in
> the basement of my home. I can do simple plumbing and carpentry.

You are too modest. Adding a bathromm is hardly simple plumbing and
carpentry. :-)

> Not
> too certain there is much I would tackle on a BB other then maybe
> cosmetic improvements. Everyone I have talked to tells me be
prepared
> to spend some money on these older MH's. This is something I am
> factoring into my purchase price and into my decision making.

Me too. We all have different tolerances and requirements. What
wasn't a problem for the previous owner might bug the heck out of me
and I'd have to fix something he was happy to ignore. So I think
it's prudent to budget several thousands to deal with these issues
in the first year or two.

> Am I a
> candidate for this type of thing? I would suggest perhaps you
> consider not attempting repairs. If you don't do it right you can
> make it worse and spend even more. Not to discourage but in my
> opinion (for what ever its worth) I don't think I would pick a BB
as
> a place to learn. John Heckman

Maybe I can find trades people who will let me watch and learn.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.
Ginger
BB wannabee
Toronto, Ont